Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X

[Spiryt]

Ironically the Japanese armours for a long time did included splinted elements, on the shins and forearms. I'd imagine it has something to do with the fact that those parts of the body are completely inflexible.

So, splinted armour is real stuff, its just not that good for full body coverage if the historical record is to be believed.

Never mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinted_mail

Europeans in 14th century used plenty "splinted" defences on arms and legs as well, from the same reason.

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As far as wiki link goes, it would be nice to know who exactly calls this 'splinted', I guess.

Anyway, the things is that 'splints' or 'bands' of metal, where naturally used a lot as an armor, but those partiucular armors in 3.5 are still completely vague.

Their pictures in PH certainly don't make too much sense.

[warty goblin]

Their pictures in PH certainly don't make too much sense.

Given some of the illustrations in the PHP they really should also have something called Belted Mail: armor made entirely out of belts and belt buckles.

[No brains]

Given some of the illustrations in the PHP they really should also have something called Belted Mail: armor made entirely out of belts and belt buckles.

But then FFX would make even less sense! Lulu's spell failure would be ridiculous!! Guess that's why I suck at her overdrive... :P

[Spiryt]

Given some of the illustrations in the PHP they really should also have something called Belted Mail: armor made entirely out of belts and belt buckles.

While 1d12 20x3 weapon should be called "Great Frying pan".

Still, Greataxe is somehow clear concept, while those armors not quite.

[warty goblin]

While 1d12 20x3 weapon should be called "Great Frying pan".

Still, Greataxe is somehow clear concept, while those armors not quite.

I don't know, I can at least identify how one could wear the armors. I have no idea how a person is supposed to use that axe, let alone use it with both hands.

It's one of those things that consistently cheeses me off about so much fantasy art: they take these highly functional, beautiful weapons and make then stupid and ugly. I mind it less when there's a consistent aesthetic at work, preferably one that harmonizes with the overall tone of the work. I often even enjoy it in those cases, but so much of D&D art strikes me as a bunch of random sketches lacking both accuracy and consistent style.

[Yora]

Take comfort that the art director for the new 5th Edition books is talking extensively with people what they want to see in the new art and why, and there seems to be a strong wish for "cool but practical" when it comes to combat equipment. His job is to decide what pieces of art are appropriate for the game and gives the directions to the artists what kind of images they want to see. And he always seemed more like a guy with a more serious approach than a fun and flashy one.
So I hope impossibly large weapons that would always get stuck and armor that is more a hazard to yourself than a protection against enemies will be seen a lot more less.

[Straybow]

Anyway, the things is that 'splints' or 'bands' of metal, where naturally used a lot as an armor, but those partiucular armors in 3.5 are still completely vague.

Their pictures in PH certainly don't make too much sense.

Given some of the illustrations in the PHP they really should also have something called Belted Mail: armor made entirely out of belts and belt buckles.

Ohhh, that's what studded leather is...

Another thing that doesn't make sense in most games is the complete disconnect between quantity and quality. A mail shirt w simple helmet is worth 4, then a full mail hauberk with gauntlets is only 5, and a breastplate alone w/greaves and helmet is only worth 5.

In real life, the mail shirt and cap would have very little armor value in hand weapon combat. It would protect you from some crits while your arms and legs (those things you need to attack and defend yourself) are completely unprotected and easily targeted. No fancy "called shot" mechanic is needed, any attack that could reach the body or head can just as easily reach the arms, and many attacks that can reach the arms can't reach anything else anyway.

I would have a gladiator's manica (metal shoulder and arm protection) rather than a mail shirt, any day.

Missile weapons are a different matter, for which mail shirt and cap will be more helpful.

[warty goblin]

Ohhh, that's what studded leather is...

Another thing that doesn't make sense in most games is the complete disconnect between quantity and quality. A mail shirt w simple helmet is worth 4, then a full mail hauberk with gauntlets is only 5, and a breastplate alone w/greaves and helmet is only worth 5.

You're working with a rather small finite set, things are going to be weird.

In real life, the mail shirt and cap would have very little armor value in hand weapon combat. It would protect you from some crits while your arms and legs (those things you need to attack and defend yourself) are completely unprotected and easily targeted. No fancy "called shot" mechanic is needed, any attack that could reach the body or head can just as easily reach the arms, and many attacks that can reach the arms can't reach anything else anyway.

I find this highly dubious, since people used basically that armor for a very, very long time.

It also misses the more fundamental point which is that arms and legs are harder targets than torso and head. They're smaller, faster moving, and, particularly for legs, often hard to strike at without leaving yourself hideously vulnerable.

At least from my own sparring experience, I much more frequently take hits to the chest or upper thighs - areas covered by a chain shirt, than lower legs and arms put together. Most sparring rules disallow headshots, but this would only decrease the proportion of arm and lower leg hits, not increase them.

All fight manuals with which I'm familiar (admittedly a small number) also mostly focus on attacks to face and upper torso. Strikes to the arms do happen, but they tend to be the endstage of very particular chains of attacks and counters, not primary targets.

I would have a gladiator's manica (metal shoulder and arm protection) rather than a mail shirt, any day.

Oh hell no. If it worked worth a damn, you'd see lots of people going to war in pauldrons and skimping elsewhere. You don't, because if somebody's shoulder and arm are covered, you hit them in the stomach or chest or head. If somebody has protected those regions however, your job is a lot harder.

The arms are only an easy target if for some reason your enemy is stupid and holds them out without putting their weapon on line to attack you. Since you often want to start a fight in a contracted guard (so you can move into a reach guard and so attack) or in a forwards guard designed to set your enemy on the defensive immediately, this doesn't happen very often. Legs below the midthigh or so simply aren't good targets, you have to be too close in order to effectively attack them, and doing so forces your weapon down, leaving you open on all high lines for a most likely faster counter attack.

The head is easy though, as is the upper chest and even the abdomen isn't prohibitively low. It's quite possible to launch an attack at these regions without leaving all your lines open or requiring a ridiculously short measure, and they're easier to hit than other body parts simply by virtue of being larger and/or harder to rapidly move.

[Knaight]

Legs below the midthigh or so simply aren't good targets, you have to be too close in order to effectively attack them, and doing so forces your weapon down, leaving you open on all high lines for a most likely faster counter attack.

This is highly weapon dependent. With most swords, this holds true, as it does with most other short weapons. With polearms, the lower leg is a reasonable easy target, and a very good one - they're more difficult to protect with shorter weapons or smaller shields, and even less powerful shots near the knee can hamper mobility; it's easy to stay out of range of limping people when you have a much longer weapon.

With that said, if someone armored their arms and legs and didn't bother with their torso, they're asking for a lunge to the abdomen or chest with basically every pole arm. This is going to be more difficult to live through than the typical lower leg or arm hit. Plus, even with pole arms, legs are a secondary target that starts showing up much more when trying to get past larger shields, and they compete with the head for this purpose.

[Storm Bringer]

Also, don't discount the fact that a wound to the arms is more survieable than a wound to the torso.

A cut that disables an arm will leave a man crippled, but alive, whereas similar levels of damge to the chest are very likey to kill. barring infection to the wound, you can survive arm wounds up to and including amputation (which is why the medical practice of amputation began in the frist place), while a penetrating wound the the chest can cause all sorts of nasty internal injurys that can slowly kill a man without modern medical help.


in short, the reason fighters, form greek hoplites to modern soldiers, wore armour on their chests and left thier arms and legs bear is that the felt that armour over chest was worth the weight, and amour on the arms and legs was less essential (note, however, that most people who ahd access to, and could afford, practical limb armour that didn;t slow them down, choose to wear it).

[Spiryt]

Ohhh, that's
In real life, the mail shirt and cap would have very little armor value in hand weapon combat. It would protect you from some crits while your arms and legs (those things you need to attack and defend yourself) are completely unprotected and easily targeted. No fancy "called shot" mechanic is needed, any attack that could reach the body or head can just as easily reach the arms, and many attacks that can reach the arms can't reach anything else anyway.

I would have a gladiator's manica (metal shoulder and arm protection) rather than a mail shirt, any day.

Missile weapons are a different matter, for which mail shirt and cap will be more helpful.

As mentioned, history seems to disagree in general.

Roman legionaries for simple example, fought in mail shirt (or segmentata/ some other stuff from time to time) and helmet by default and all sorts of manica and other limb protection never seemed to kick in that much.

Obviously, they had pretty damn large shield, but that's still hand weapon combat.

Leg armor generally was used by riders mostly, because it's hard on movement, obviously, and helmet or some chest protector seemed to very universally be first protecting equipment employed as soon as someone could, after shield, obviously.

[warty goblin]

in short, the reason fighters, form greek hoplites to modern soldiers, wore armour on their chests and left thier arms and legs bear is that the felt that armour over chest was worth the weight, and amour on the arms and legs was less essential (note, however, that most people who ahd access to, and could afford, practical limb armour that didn;t slow them down, choose to wear it).

Greek Hoplites seem to have made extensive use of greaves, in addition to their torso armor and helmet. Given that they primarily fought with spears, and covered by a large, heavy shield however, this isn't surprising. As Knaight points out, the legs are a much more attractive target with a spear.

[rrgg]

Greek Hoplites seem to have made extensive use of greaves, in addition to their torso armor and helmet. Given that they primarily fought with spears, and covered by a large, heavy shield however, this isn't surprising. As Knaight points out, the legs are a much more attractive target with a spear.

There is the issue that a shield using an argive grip can't easily reach down to protect past the knees. Or at least not nearly as well as the center grip shields used by the Romans and most everyone else.

[fusilier]

Also, don't discount the fact that a wound to the arms is more survieable than a wound to the torso.

True, but in hand-to-hand, a wound to the arms could be disabling, preventing the wounded person from being able to effectively fight back.

[rrgg]

Basically since the limbs move far more when walking or fighting any weight added to them is going to have a far greater drain on your energy then weight on your torso or head will (iirc there was a study a year ago that demonstrated just how much more tiring moving in a full suit of armor was compaired to the same weight in a backpack). Basically armoring the "core" primarily was a good way to add lots of protection while limiting any effects on mobility.

Also keep in mind that even during the actual battle a footsoldier would probably have way more legwork to do than actual fighting.

[Knaight]

True, but in hand-to-hand, a wound to the arms could be disabling, preventing the wounded person from being able to effectively fight back.

Sure, which is why there is getting back and letting somebody with functional arms take your place in the line.

[deuxhero]

How would gloves interfere (or not) with archery? Does the material (i.e., Leather vs chain) matter?

[Ashtagon]

How would gloves interfere (or not) with archery? Does the material (i.e., Leather vs chain) matter?

With the left hand, the key was a secure grip. With the right hand, the key was having good manual dexterity for at least the thumb and first two fingers.

Many archers would wear bracers (soft leather straps covering the forearm and wrist) to protect against accidental lashing from the bowstring. These are not the same as the gamer rendition of bracers.

In any cases, any glove heavy enough to provide meaningful armour protection would also be heavy enough to significantly reduce your ability to aim.

[Straybow]

In real life, the mail shirt and cap would have very little armor value in hand weapon combat... any attack that could reach the body or head can just as easily reach the arms...

I find this highly dubious, since people used basically that armor for a very, very long time.

Roman legionaries for simple example, fought in mail shirt (or segmentata/ some other stuff from time to time) and helmet by default and all sorts of manica and other limb protection never seemed to kick in that much.

Obviously, they had pretty damn large shield, but that's still hand weapon combat.

Greek Hoplites seem to have made extensive use of greaves, in addition to their torso armor and helmet. Given that they primarily fought with spears, and covered by a large, heavy shield...

But that is the whole point. The guys who wore torso armor depended on the shield as their main defense and the torso armor was the life-saver backup. These examples are also mainly military uses with men in formation, covering each other with their shields and weapons.

It also misses the more fundamental point which is that arms and legs are harder targets than torso and head. They're smaller, faster moving, and, particularly for legs, often hard to strike at without leaving yourself hideously vulnerable.

...Since you often want to start a fight in a contracted guard (so you can move into a reach guard and so attack) or in a forwards guard designed to set your enemy on the defensive immediately, this doesn't happen very often.

The hand and wrist of the sword arm should be one of your best target options for an opening strike, especially if the opponent is in a forward guard as you indicate is often the case. You have to reach past the hand and wrist to reach anything else, so by definition you are less extended and less vulnerable in the attempt. Yes, he can slip and avoid the attack, but that means he is on defense and not offense at that moment. Maybe the folks you spar with don't do that much.

Second, the best defense is a good offense, and the best offense is a good defense. That is, the best way to hit your opponent is counterstrike. Let him cross the distance, block to rob his attack of all energy, and in the split second while his weapon is stopped you counter.

If he's stepped in close enough to hit you solidly, what part of his body is closest, and now stopped dead? His sword arm. If using a buckler or shield to block you can actually start swinging to strike the anticipated position of wrist before it gets there, in essence blocking and striking almost simultaneously.

His forward leg is an excellent target. You are already inside his reach, and by directing your attack low he may be unable to block with his shield or second weapon. The opponent's arm and weapon are frequently in a position that occupies the path to the head, and the body can often be warded with the shield or whatever is in the left hand. Or just the left hand, if it comes to that.

If he's sensed the trouble and started to back away as fast as your counter, his arm is still the closest thing you can reach. Or if he's pressed the attack and you stepped away in almost any direction his arm will still be a prime target. If you pass to his outside (in those situation where practical), again the forward leg is an excellent target without exposing yourself.

Oh hell no. If it worked worth a damn, you'd see lots of people going to war in pauldrons and skimping elsewhere. You don't, because if somebody's shoulder and arm are covered, you hit them in the stomach or chest or head. If somebody has protected those regions however, your job is a lot harder.

No, you don't see that because folks go to war in the armor they can afford. What I said was if my choice were either mail shirt or steel manica, I'd choose the latter. If more protection were available I'd use anything I can get.

Again, going to war means you have to worry about volleys of arrows that you can't dodge or block. If you are talking single combat or the small melee like we see in an adventuring game, that is not the issue. If I'm wearing arm protection that is largely proof of anything less than a full force hit and you are not, then I can ignore the slashes at my wrist and counter directly even before the slash hits. If you go for my unprotected torso, I'll use one of the above techniques and target your unprotected arm.

BTW, when we sparred in my old study group (before I moved away) we used hand and head protection only. Padded weapons and armor teach bad habits, imo. Once good principles are ingrained then armor can be used even more effectively.

All fight manuals with which I'm familiar (admittedly a small number) also mostly focus on attacks to face and upper torso. Strikes to the arms do happen, but they tend to be the endstage of very particular chains of attacks and counters, not primary targets.

Well, all the manuals I know or can google are either close quarters manuals focusing on grips and the like rather than single handed sword strikes in good measure, armored combat halfswording where the arms are protected against cuts, longsword halfswording techniques where the midblade is dull and can't cut the arms, or dueling manuals where formal technique is important rather than open field fighting. Most do cover rakes to the hands, at the least. It's common in my experience and in sparring I see on youtube.

Second, they are manuals describing an entire body of study. Some maneuvers will be quite rarely seen in practice, while a few basics will be used over and over again.

[razark]

How would gloves interfere (or not) with archery? Does the material (i.e., Leather vs chain) matter?

When shooting, I use gloves. The hand drawing the string has a glove (or more often, a leather tab) to protect the fingers from the pressure and friction of the string. The bow hand has a glove because the arrow rests on my hand. The glove protects from friction, as well as preventing the edges of the fletch from scratching the skin as the arrow leaves.

I imagine that chain gloves might interfere with the fletch as it passes more than smooth leather.

[Jay R]

In real life, the mail shirt and cap would have very little armor value in hand weapon combat. It would protect you from some crits while your arms and legs (those things you need to attack and defend yourself) are completely unprotected and easily targeted.

I haven't seen any reason to believe that anybody in the middle ages wore expensive mail without including at least the relatively cheap heavy-leather vambraces and rerbraces. I assume that a player who bought a chain hauberk bought the entire armor kit, not a single item.

I would have a gladiator's manica (metal shoulder and arm protection) rather than a mail shirt, any day.

Missile weapons are a different matter, for which mail shirt and cap will be more helpful.

Missile weapons are not a different matter. They are in the same battle, and they attack first. A gladiator is facing a single person, and no archers.

A guy wearing a manica to battle quite likely never gets close enough to throw a blow; the first arrow volley killed him. His buddy in mail and helm has to be hit where the armor isn't - a much harder shot.

There are descriptions of crusaders walking away from battles looking like porcupines - covered with arrows that didn't hurt them.

[cucchulainnn]

straybow, what system did you study? who was your instructor? you said you used padded weapons was it a LARP? was it a backyard study group? if so which book did you use for your foundation? do you know the difference between single time and double time movements? what is the difference between a good parry and a bad one? do you understand foot work, distance judgement and timing? what is the difference between a hanging guard and alber? you said you studied single handed swords. did you study, silver? mc bane? hope's new method? any of the Bolognese masters? I.33? which system or was it is mix? or are you basing it off a grosse messer? do you know the difference between winding and a riposte? do you know about lines of attack and displacement? or are you talking about hand and arm sniping? gotta be honest sniping only works on the inexperienced who don't understand the basics.

now to be honest i mostly studied the german tradition. so lets try this out. i start in vom tag. which guard do you take and how would you attack me? i dare you to go for my legs. if you do geometry is on my side and you open your self up to a head shot. guess which one if fatal.

i hope i'm not being taken for being argumentative i am just trying to get where you are coming from. because so far your arguments seem to be from some one who has a little knowledge but dose not really understand what he is talking about. if i am wrong and misunderstanding what you are trying to say i look forward to being corrected.

so what evidence do you have to support your arguments other then horsing around with boffers in some ones back yard.

[Storm Bringer]

straybow, what system did you study? who was your instructor? you said you used padded weapons was it a LARP?

not answering for him, but i must quote:

BTW, when we sparred in my old study group (before I moved away) we used hand and head protection only. Padded weapons and armor teach bad habits, imo.

emphasis mine. I read that to mean he dooes not normally use padded weaponry, as he thinks it teachs "bad habits" (i.e. you start doing things that make sense only with padded weaponry, and not with "real" swords)

[cucchulainnn]

ahh you are right storm bringer, and i apologize. as i do not intend to misrepresent Straybow. Straybow i apologize if asking if you are part of a larp was insulting. it was not intended as so. although from my understanding in europe larps are held in much higher regard then here in the states.

i do have a follow up statement and question.

just to clarify i am not saying that attacking arms and legs are impossible. just that it is not the best choice except when fighting inexperienced fighters. don't take my word on this. ask people with far more experience then i have. go to armour archive and ask, or Schola Gladiatoria or hammborg, or even the fighters that participate in battle of nations.

once again who is your instructor, which organization are you affiliated with. i am familiar with most of the groups in the continental north america. i would like to ask your instructor if you are representing the material correctly or misunderstanding it. i will gladly post the text of the response on this forum. if not the us or canada i can contact matt easton or roland (if you don't recognize either of those name, that tells me every thing i need to know about your knowledge) for the contact information. I would like to find out if it is a matter of misunderstanding what you are trying to say. This is always a possiblilty. You are obvisouly intelligent and it is possible we misunderstanding you, either through poor descriptions or language barriers or stupidity on my part. It has been known to happen; I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.

have you been to any of the conferences or competitions. if so when and where is it possible we have met.

i apologize if any of this is coming off as rude. i am honestly curious about learning a new technique.

so please let me know what techniques you would use. i look forward to learning something new. be as descriptive as possible.

thank you


Jay R look up jack chains. i believe they where fairly commonly used in conjunction with gambesons. a friend of mine did a test a few years ago and a twenty layer gambeson was surprisingly difficult to cut. i'll see if i can find the tread he made on it over at my armoury.

[Spiryt]

Fair amount of art seems to show archers with bare hands, even though they're otherwise rather substantially armored, including whole arms, save hands, covered in mail or other armor.

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On the other hand, one can also rather easily find depictions of bowmen, who appear to wear something that very clearly looks like bulky, hourglass gauntlets.

So assuming certain percentage or some kind of randomness among those depictions, aside from actual observations, it quite probably depended on preference and situation a lot.

I haven't seen any reason to believe that anybody in the middle ages wore expensive mail without including at least the relatively cheap heavy-leather vambraces and rerbraces. I assume that a player who bought a chain hauberk bought the entire armor kit, not a single item.

Well, we doesn't have any real evidence of leather vamraces etc. in general, as far as middle ages go.

Although someone who could only affor a short hauberk only, would indeed probably still be at least able/willing to cover his arms in some sort of quilted/layered cloth.

[Yora]

Interestingly, the crosbowmen in the same pictures do wear gauntlets. So it's definitly something the artists were really paying attention to.

[Autolykos]

although from my understanding in europe larps are held in much higher regard then here in the states.

You have even lower regard for LARP? How is that possible?
While a lot of quite knowledgeable people are participating in LARP round here, none of them seriously believes it is a good representation of actual combat. LARP rules are designed to prevent injuries and forbid most dangerous (read: effective) techniques anyway. In most systems I know, it is practically impossible to use most polearms in a way that would be effective with the real thing, for example - actually, clubs, short axes and hacking swords are the only weapons that seem to work somewhat reliably with plausible-looking techniques (but that might just be my impression because of my Escrima background...).

[Yora]

LARPers are the very bottom end of the Roleplaying hierarchy. I think everyone but themselves think it's silly.

[Spiryt]

Interestingly, the crosbowmen in the same pictures do wear gauntlets. So it's definitly something the artists were really paying attention to.

There's quite a lot of crossbowmen without them as well.

By 'common sense' crossbow doesn't require that ' nimble' fingers, as you doesn't have to control arrow and string at the same time, releasing it manually.

You draw the string using some lever, and place the bolt, only being careful, so everything is set nice and straight.

But that's just speculation, obviously.

[Aux-Ash]

LARPers are actually quite respected here in Sweden. Some of the largest non-sport hobby groups are LARPers (with memberships in the thousands) and frequently they qualify for grants from local communities or even the goverment.
That said... they do not pretend to teach anything close to real combat and stresses this quite fervently.