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2012-04-10, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-10, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
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2012-04-10, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Avatar by KwarkpuddingThe subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.
Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.
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2012-04-10, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-04-10, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-10, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Kanagawa, Japan
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Dude carrying the axe has one bare hand as well. Very interesting illustration. Still, I think the general conclusion stands that gloves make it potentially harder to manipulate weaponry. I would be interested in any examples of armoured gauntlets that did not interfere with manual dexterity, though.
Last edited by Matthew; 2012-04-10 at 09:03 PM.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2012-04-10, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
I'll let those with more experience weigh in, but I was under the impression that disengaging from hand-to-hand combat is difficult, without some comrade to cover you. I would imagine that if your primary weapon arm is injured it would become even more difficult. Running involves turning your back, and hoping that you're faster than your opponent (or he doesn't bother to chase).
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2012-04-10, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Matchlock arquebusiers and musketeers were specifically directed to not wear gloves -- they didn't want to be fumbling the match. Strangely reenactors are often instructed to wear gloves, so as not to burn their fingers! I don't use gloves with my matchlock, but it's hard for me to find gloves that fit properly.
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2012-04-10, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
This is more a psychology debate that has to do with the fact that the goal of combat isn't necessarily about killing. Roman Gadiator matches were rarely to the death since owners didn't want to lose their investments (and probably one of the reasons their armor was designed to avoid potentially crippling limb injuries). In duels if your opponent has clearly been defeated or is running off then you've defended your honor, you've proven you were the better man so there generally isn't much reason to finish your opponent off.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "most casualties are people being stabbed in the back as they flee" theory. A person in flight is still dangerous, from the perspective of a warrior who is concerned about staying alive do you hold your ground and accept victory or do you give chase and risk some lucky strike ending it all?
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2012-04-10, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
I think it's a bit more than psychology. Not that people got stabbed in the back while running - I do agree that's probably not all that common, at least not in eras when taking prisoners was acceptable. However, if your formation loses its cohesion while your opponent's is still intact and attacking you will have a "bad day".
Once a formation is broken it becomes a matter of two or more vs one - you no longer have buddies at your sides. It also opens the door for heavy cavalry. The cohesive force has to exploit their advantage to prevent units from reforming...to make them run. That's when a significant percentage of casualties are inflicted.-
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The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you.
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2012-04-11, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
For what it's worth (limited, I know), my experience with (competitive, non-staged) reenactment combat is that ...
1) it's bloody difficult to disengage successfully unless you are winning (which means you have a numerical advantage -mates to cover you- or a psychological advantage -the enemy is not prepared to give chase- or both).
2) because we're not using sharp weapons, we don't generally break and run. However, I have learned to identify the 'break point' -the point where one side would have broken were we actually fighting. Unless there is a flanking attack, it generally occurs just after one side loses formation and the enemy manages to exploit this successfully. This means getting a series of two (or more) on one, blindsiding or just engaging unready opponents as chaos erupts. If successful, this causes massive casualties to few in return and is near-impossible to recover from. At this point dropping your weapon and running is your best chance, but of course we don't actually do that.
The chaos just after lines are broken is where most get killed. Chasing someone who runs full tilt is not attractive, because you have to do the same and so if he turns on you, you have lost your tactical advantage. Unless you are cavalry, of course, and can run him down without losing combat-readiness.
Not saying I'm an expert in combat psychology, just my 0.05$ from slightly relevant experience.
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2012-04-11, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
All gloves and gauntlets of course interfere somewhat with dexterity. Properly fit, properly made gauntlets are incredibly light, even delicate feeling and don't actually weight that much or hinder finger or hand movement much at all. They were designed to do their job with the absolute minimum impact to the wearer (just like all armour).
However most gauntlet recreations are heavy, clunky garbage that the wearer is constantly fighting against (again, just like most recreation armour!).
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2012-04-11, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Beyond the Ninth Wave
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Seconding this, there's also the reality that beyond a certain point, fine dexterity with your fingers doesn't help you with most melee weapon manipulation. So long as you can manage a solid grip, good wrist movement and position your fingers for both thrusts and chops, you should be pretty much okay.
Originally Posted by KKL
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2012-04-11, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
So would just about everyone who fought in the middle ages. If you wear gloves, it will interfere with your manual dexterity to some degree. This will vary depending on the gloves but it will always be there. The key is finding the right balance between protection and dexterity. If you're swinging a mace, you don't need the same level of manual dexterity as the guy with the longbow, so you would wear armored gauntlets, while he would wear either no gloves, or well broken in leather gloves.
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2012-04-12, 02:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
When fighting with rapier and sidesword (my preferred weapons) as well as longsword. I wear a pair of fairly worn leather gloves, i actually prefer the gloves to bear hands, especially with the wire wrapped hilt that is common on rapiers.
Its gives me less "dexterity" but a better grip.
DMThe Lords of Uncloaked Steel
"But iron - cold iron - is master of them all."
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2012-04-12, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
I lost track of this thread since we started the new one! Missed it!
Couple of points on a few things that were pretty well covered in the thread so far..
Cannons vs. fortifications. I think you have to be careful saying that cannons made warfare favor the offense. The defenses went down right away in some places first facing cannon, but held up very well in others, well before they reformed their fortifications to trace Itallienne or "artillery fort" standards. Many forts which had proven unbreakable for centuries did go down in a matter of hours or minutes, it's true. But many others proved unbreakable, especially some of the larger cities.
I think the main political effect was really in the countryside, the robber knights and smaller barons and lords who had old castles in good positions but didn't have a lot of money or a lot of artisans who could make guns for them, got wiped out, which led to an increasing scaling up of the power of Kings and Princes in a lot of places, and the gradual diminution of the power of the lower aristocracy; but the towns which had a lot of money and were resourceful seemed to be great at defense. Several of the major Hanse towns for example seem to have been impregnable.
Not all the towns could hold up though, it must also mean something about the layout of the land and the fortifications... how easy it was to get cannons in position outside of the town perhaps. How easy it is to move them around inside the town. How good the defenders are at creative pyrotechnics and other tricks of siege warfare. How warlike the townfolk were. How well the approaches were covered. There were a lot of limitations to the early cannon, the really big ones capable of knocking down walls used to heat up so much they couldn't fire them sometimes more than 2 or 3 times a day.
As for the old mail shirt and helmet... I think the most likely place to get hit is the head, which is why the helmet is the most common type of armor. People still think mail doesn't work but it's very good armor. Not just to protect you against some crits! If you are talking about pre 1300AD the shield is the first line of defense and protects pretty well. Most casualties on the battlefield are actually going to be from some kind of missiles: rocks, darts, slingstones, javelins, spears, arrows, crossbow bolts, bullets...
But the arms and hands are vulnerable especially in close-in shock warfare. Troops which expect to do sustained hand to hand fighting tended to have more armor... with the tradeoff of what they can carry. But even early on you see the Cataphractii and Clibinarii wearing a lot of armor. You also see this in the Viking Age, throughout the Medieval era including quite a bit with infantry.
But I also agree that injuries to the torso and head were more feared. Medieval and pre-industrial medicine wasn't quite as terrible as people usually assumed. You could be crippled by a cut to the arm but you had a chance of surviving. If your guts were cut open, if you lungs were punctured, if your spine was severed, if your skull was broken, you were going to die.
GLast edited by Galloglaich; 2012-04-12 at 05:04 PM.
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2012-04-12, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
I have a slightly unusual request:
I am looking for helmets that look "cool", but are also practical and don't pose a danger to the wearer. The good old "norman" helmet looks like it's one of the most basic and practical designs, but outside the circle of medieval armor buffs, they don't look cool. The spectacles added to the noseguard in "viking" helmets are a cool adition, but that's still not a lot of variation.
It also should be a kind of helmet that dates before the 13th century, as pretty much everything after that date really looks like european knight, and I am looking for ideas for less advanced fictional cultures. If it's not european or has the destinctive knight look, it's also okay. Great Helms are also very stylish, but at least to me they are very much tied to the crusades and I can't really imagine them outside that context.
Other than that, hoplite helmets have that really cool nose guard, that's also something I think looks great on a helmet.
Spoiler
Norman
Viking
Hoplite
Cool but retarded
So, anything springs to your mind that might be worth taking a look at?Last edited by Yora; 2012-04-12 at 01:03 PM.
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
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2012-04-12, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Seems somehow difficult, as really people's definitions of 'cool' will vary tremendously.
Also, Great Helmets are not really 'tied' to Crusades, they were used in whole Europe...
Anyway, I would look for Vendel period helmets, some helmets are incredibly detailed and decorated status symbols, but there's a lot of more 'plain' ones too.
You can check this site, a lot of different fancy helmet replicas.Avatar by KwarkpuddingThe subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.
Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.
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2012-04-12, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Well, before the Great Helmet and its variations became popular in Europe, there was not so much variation in helm types. One of the most comon helm types, besides the simple metal skullcap, was the Spangenhelm (the german expression seem to have stuck). It wasnt so much a type, but more a construction principle. Thus the ammount of different desings is huge. No wonder: it was used throughout all of europe, the steppe, the middle east and maybe even beyond, and over a long period of time. A google picture search should come up lots of helms in different desings.
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2012-04-12, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- new york city
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
do you mean like these?
the first four are vendel, (dark age, germanic) the 2nd three are eastern european or central asian.
Spoiler
Last edited by cucchulainnn; 2012-04-12 at 02:32 PM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Liechtenauer
It's hard to fight when there is a yard of steel stabbing you in your face.
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2012-04-12, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
I have nothing constructive to add, but I felt like I have to say that I was just awestruck at the beauty of those helmets. Just stunned. Are they based on actual findings or has the creator/creators taken artistic freedoms in the elaborate marks?
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2012-04-12, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Liechtenauer
It's hard to fight when there is a yard of steel stabbing you in your face.
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2012-04-12, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2012-04-12, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Yeah those are exquisite.
There are also a lot of really interesting Celtic helmets, including some really far out ones, though the replicas aren't as well developed. These are La Tene era antiques, mostly Bronze
These are earlier, Halstadt
Spoiler
Spoiler
I think this is a roman cavalry helmet, there are lots of ones with cool / creepy face plates like that which have survived
Last edited by Galloglaich; 2012-04-12 at 05:05 PM.
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2012-04-12, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
I'd also add some Eastern Asian helmets.
Chinese
Spoiler
I'd also look into Korean and Siamese helmets, though I didn't find any through a quick look.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-04-12, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
What about an actual horny helmet? Scandinavian bronze age:
Mediterranean bronze age had boar tusk helmets. All kinds of awesome.
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2012-04-13, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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First, I'll say stormbringer's reading is correct: we don't use padded weapons or armor. Second, on the field with choice of weapons I'd rather have a staff, and could strike at your leading leg with a foot or two reach advantage over your zweihander. Third, I would not posit that just because one is outside a perceived mainstream one has no knowledge...
I study English Martial Arts (sword/cudgel, staff, bare fist, some sword and dagger, some sword and buckler; I've been introduced to some other weapons). I was in the only American chapter organized under Terry Brown's Company of Maisters in London. The primary ancient source he leans on is Silver, although he undoubtedly combed every English source he could find that seemed to differentiate the older traditions from the newer continental stuff. He views Hope as a compromise between good, stout English swordsmanship and the smallsword of that day, and if you had to use smallsword that would be a good study. My instructor back East was Chris Myers.
I don't have any other names I can drop, sorry. We are a bit insular in that we are focused on English roots, not continental. I moved out West four years ago. Here in the North Bay Area I've met no one, and only recently made contact with a couple people some distance away whom I haven't met in person, so I'll not name them. Before that I've been tied up with marriage, church, work, baby with heart surgery, etc.
I read McBane's autobiography. I read something else claiming to be Scottish sword technique of that period. It was obviously derived from continental rapier and smallsword, modified for the heavier cutting swords the Scots prefer, and since that isn't my cup of tea I didn't make a study of it.
Similarly, I haven't studied German longsword or Italian techniques, so I don't know the names of guards or other terminology. I did leaf through a friend's reprint of something in German that had grosse messer and longsword techniques but found them to be too specific to be of general use. And I've wasted much time laughing at youtube between the rare good examples.
In sparring (naked ratan, or even light hardwood for a serious bout) we routinely adopt either hanging guard or outside guard at eye height. For a sword in two hands one might use a median guard or take the reverse stance which seems to be the high vom tag if my google fu has not failed me. In this school it would not be considered a proper "guard" since you aren't actually occupying any line of attack, just preparing to punish anybody who gets too close. The lower vom tag is even less a proper guard by that definition, just an alert ready position that keeps you from poking your fellow combatants on the field. The English might call that an open fight position.
I didn't claim that striking at the hands or wrists of an opponent in forward guard is the best attack, only that it is a good way to put your opponent on the defensive with a minimal exposure on your part. Getting your opponent off his game is part of the whole. Otherwise strikes at arms and legs are counters after blocks, as I described.
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2012-04-14, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Would there have been any particular engineering difficulty in designing a packsaddle that would work over barding? I know it would have been a complete waste in actual history, but I need to know for a D&D game if there is any reason I CAN'T have it made.
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2012-04-14, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
No problem, because saddles as a rule don't go over barding at all. Barding goes around saddles. The only time I've seen this violated was once with a padded cloth barding, which basically acted as a saddlepad/blanket and the girth straps basically wove through the cloth. With leather, maille, or plate barding the stuff was attached to the saddle and to the croup, basically covering wherever the saddle *isn't*.
A pack saddle is a lot longer than a regular saddle, so the barding would need to be made specifically for this use. You would also have to spend some time training the pack horse/mule that the barding is an okay thing, and isn't going to eat the animal.Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!
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2012-04-15, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk X
Switching gears to science fiction for a moment...
Plausible armaments for spacecraft. Missiles? Projectile weapons, even gauss or railguns, would probably be ineffective except at extreme(relative) close range, or against targets that can't manouver. Lasers would work over long distance, if not for how easy it'd be to coat a ship with some kind of reflective material. Not like stealth is a design consideration anyway.Last edited by The Grue; 2012-04-15 at 07:36 PM.