Voldur: Half-elf, half-orc (3.5) If you read it, you'll want to play it. Promise.

[Empedocles]

Spending 20 levels mastering one weapon? That base class lacks the flexibility that makes it a base class.

It would learn tons of crazy skills with said weapon. And taking 10 levels to master one weapon (10 level PrC, presumably) with the level 5 minimum entry is still 15 levels...don't see how that's any better then 20...

[Lord_Gareth]

It would learn tons of crazy skills with said weapon. And taking 10 levels to master one weapon (10 level PrC, presumably) with the level 5 minimum entry is still 15 levels...don't see how that's any better then 20...

Because, again, a PrC is supposed to take something that is broad and turn it into something narrow (also, any weapon mastering PrC should be five levels MAX). A base class is supposed to be able to carry a larger number of concepts than just one - a PrC does not have to. Cavalier, for example, is a Mounted Fighter. That's all it is. It's a narrowing of the Fighter concept to only involve Being On a Mount. A twenty-level "Weapon Master" class is a really narrow concept, whereas the /idea/ behind Fighter (realized with Warblade) is "master of warfare/combat", which entails much more. "Weapon Master" refines that to a narrower point.

[F0X7713]

Well, In other news...

Your race is AMAZING!! And I plan to use it in many of my future campaigns! However... I am having a hard time picturing a female (For I know a few girls who would be quite interested in playing with this race XP).

[Empedocles]

Glad you like it I'm actually having trouble picturing a female too...this is art I actually used for my half-orc fix (see my signature. It's the artwork for my paragon class, and if you liked this it's probably worth your time) but it's about as close as I can find to how I picture a female half-elf orc...

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[LrdoftheRngs]

This is a really great race, and I like the feel and concept of it a lot. Keep on homebrewing, you're churning out some great stuff!

[Empedocles]

This is a really great race, and I like the feel and concept of it a lot. Keep on homebrewing, you're churning out some great stuff!

Thanks Appreciate it

[danzibr]

how would you guys feel about a base class that revolves around the sort of wandering, lonely warrior the voldur represents?

I'd like to see it.

Thing is, mah brotha, base classes are supposed to be broad, not narrow. A base class should be able to represent a wide variety of concepts, which is why from this perspective Barbarian is a bad thing to have as a base class whereas Fighter is a good one (the executions, obviously, are the exact opposite). PrC's are how you take that something broad and turn it into something narrow. The shadowy warrior being a PrC is a good thing (the execution is, again, another thing). "Wandering loner" is a PrC-worthy concept, not a base-class worthy one, just like "uses a katana" was a terrible idea for an entire base class. Y'know?

I also disagree with this. I mean, even *if* a base class really is supposed to do this, and prestige classes are supposed to specialize something (say like a Druid, which can shapechange, cast and have an animal companion taking Master of Many Forms), that's not how 3.5 is, not really.

Spending 20 levels mastering one weapon? That base class lacks the flexibility that makes it a base class.

Not all base classes are flexible. Soulknife takes 20 levels and they don't even fully master their weapon (and yeah, they can split it into two weapon, et cetera). And you can respond with, "Well, Soulknife sucks," but it still is an official base class.

[Empedocles]

I'd like to see it.

I also disagree with this. I mean, even *if* a base class really is supposed to do this, and prestige classes are supposed to specialize something (say like a Druid, which can shapechange, cast and have an animal companion taking Master of Many Forms), that's not how 3.5 is, not really.

Not all base classes are flexible. Soulknife takes 20 levels and they don't even fully master their weapon (and yeah, they can split it into two weapon, et cetera). And you can respond with, "Well, Soulknife sucks," but it still is an official base class.

Exactly. WotC failed to really keep the base classes broad enough to justify as many PrCs as they have. You can say we should strive to exceed their example but I think that keeping many base classes fairly specific, if still versatile, is better than making a "ass-kicker" base class with the "big and strong ass-kicker," "fast ass-kicker," "ass-kicker with a shield," and ass-kicker with a magic sword" PrCs. Each of those could represent a base class if the mechanics of the class were kept versatile.

[Lord_Gareth]

That line of reasoning is the reason Soulknife (T5), Monk (T6) and the CWar Samurai (T6) exist. Guess what they all have in common? Being really, really specific (hell, CSamuWHY is literally 'I use a katana', the class). Higher-tier classes tend to be specific.

[Empedocles]

That line of reasoning is the reason Soulknife (T5), Monk (T6) and the CWar Samurai (T6) exist. Guess what they all have in common? Being really, really specific (hell, CSamuWHY is literally 'I use a katana', the class). Higher-tier classes tend to be specific.

Dread necromancer? Lurker? Shugenja? Nightstalker? Totemist? Dragonfire Adept? Archivist????

And anyways, having a low Tier isn't necessarily something to strive for. I'd rather have been the one to design the dread necromancer then the guy who thought of the wizard...

[Lord_Gareth]

Dread necromancer? Lurker? Shugenja? Nightstalker? Totemist? Dragonfire Adept? Archivist????

Many of these classes are mid-to-high tier. Lemme break this down for you:

Dread Necromancer - I manipulate the forces of life and death. Broad-based concept, yes? It only seems narrow in comparison to Wizard.

Lurker - I use psychic powers to augment stealth. Very narrow concept, and last I checked Lurker was T4 to T5 and also not terribly popular.

Shugenja - By mastering the elements, I come to command them. Very much like a Cleric, Shugenjas are a divine caster. Unlike a Cleric, they cast their spells through contemplation. Though they have an elemental theme, they've got a very broad power base, because the paradigm that they work from is that everything is composed of the elements they manipulate. T2 last I checked, and their base is pretty broad.

Nightstalker - You've got me, I don't even know this one.

Totemist - I unleash the power of the soul within to emulate the great and magical beasts of nature. Kinda specialized, but also kinda broad. It's a nice niche in which to reside where you've got a clear specialty, but theoretical application outside of that nice. T3 last I checked.

Dragonfire Adept - Not terribly familiar with the class, but the concept of, I channel the power of dragons in a world where dragons can be sorcerers, psychics, freak-assed chess masters, vampires(!) and even demons as well as dragons sounds pretty broad to me.

Archivist - Why'd you even bring this one up? I gain the power of the divine through study and discipline is exactly as broad as Wizard.

The class you're proposing isn't really a Wizard -> Dread Necro conversion - it's more like a Ranger -> Fighter.

[Empedocles]

Many of these classes are mid-to-high tier. Lemme break this down for you:

Dread Necromancer - I manipulate the forces of life and death. Broad-based concept, yes? It only seems narrow in comparison to Wizard.

Lurker - I use psychic powers to augment stealth. Very narrow concept, and last I checked Lurker was T4 to T5 and also not terribly popular.

Shugenja - By mastering the elements, I come to command them. Very much like a Cleric, Shugenjas are a divine caster. Unlike a Cleric, they cast their spells through contemplation. Though they have an elemental theme, they've got a very broad power base, because the paradigm that they work from is that everything is composed of the elements they manipulate. T2 last I checked, and their base is pretty broad.

Nightstalker - You've got me, I don't even know this one.

Totemist - I unleash the power of the soul within to emulate the great and magical beasts of nature. Kinda specialized, but also kinda broad. It's a nice niche in which to reside where you've got a clear specialty, but theoretical application outside of that nice. T3 last I checked.

Dragonfire Adept - Not terribly familiar with the class, but the concept of, I channel the power of dragons in a world where dragons can be sorcerers, psychics, freak-assed chess masters, vampires(!) and even demons as well as dragons sounds pretty broad to me.

Archivist - Why'd you even bring this one up? I gain the power of the divine through study and discipline is exactly as broad as Wizard.

The class you're proposing isn't really a Wizard -> Dread Necro conversion - it's more like a Ranger -> Fighter.

First of all, I admitted the class I was proposing was probably a bad idea...

The nightstalker is a spellcasting rogue whose main purpose is to communicate with undead. It's ridiculously specialized, but mechanically has a broad range of abilities. And it's probably Tier 2. (If you're interested it's from the Races of Ansalon supplement.)

Saying that the Dread Necromancer "manipulates the forces of life and death" is A)still a fairly specific statement and B)is like saying the Blackguard PrC is a character who uses the power of evil. It's obviously broad if you put it in those terms, but in practice it's quite specific flavor wise (not necessarily specific mechanically).

You should really read the dragonfire adept more closely. It's an extremely specific class that is specific theme wise and specific mechanically (it can really only use a breath weapon).

I brought up the archivist because the flavor reads more like a wizard who has discovered divine magic. A character who worships gods but receives arcane spells could be a PrC or a base class no?

Oh, and the shugenja's essential base is broad...until you factor in that over half its spells are from a single element and it can't even learn spells from the opposed element. Really, the shugenja is just an elemental mage with some extra spells.

[ArkenBrony]

I have to comment extremely positively to this class, i've always wondered why there was never a half elf, half orc race. i was making my own for a campaign I'm running, but then i stumbled upon this, and it is great, i need to save it for later use. again, i compliment you and your creation.

[Lord_Gareth]

I have to comment extremely positively to this class, i've always wondered why there was never a half elf, half orc race. i was making my own for a campaign I'm running, but then i stumbled upon this, and it is great, i need to save it for later use. again, i compliment you and your creation.

I do have to agree with this sentiment - I like the race thing. I just kinda got stuck on the class design bit ^_^

[Empedocles]

I have to comment extremely positively to this class, i've always wondered why there was never a half elf, half orc race. i was making my own for a campaign I'm running, but then i stumbled upon this, and it is great, i need to save it for later use. again, i compliment you and your creation.

Thanks a ton

I do have to agree with this sentiment - I like the race thing. I just kinda got stuck on the class design bit ^_^

I think...neither of us is going to convince the other on the class issue. Agree to disagree?

[Lord_Gareth]

I think...neither of us is going to convince the other on the class issue. Agree to disagree?

No. I will find you, Vilpich. I will find you, and I will bake you muffins! I will make you pastries and clean your house and care for you in every possible way UNTIL YOU SUBMIT TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY CAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE!

Yeah sounds good.

[Empedocles]

No. I will find you, Vilpich. I will find you, and I will bake you muffins! I will make you pastries and clean your house and care for you in every possible way UNTIL YOU SUBMIT TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY CAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE!

Yeah sounds good.

LOL I only saw the "yeah sounds good" in white when I quoted you

And I'll give up a minor concession: in the d20 modern system, which has 6 10 level base classes based around each attribute and advanced classes that give the character a more in depth personality class-wise (like, from the strength class to soldier or the dedicated class to the acolyte) I completely approve of the way PrCs/Advanced Classes were handled.

[Daverin]

This... works strangely well. I *really* did not expect myself to see half-elf/half-orc as working, but you made it work very well. So, while your half-orc was awesome because it was awesome, I have to tip my figurative hat to you because this has both that and being awesome because this is not a concept I'd just expect to easily work. Are you sure you can't conjure up that half-dwarf half-orc that doesn't sound silly?

(Although, in all seriousness, now that I think of it, if you could make a functional orog (orc/ogre) that isn't just the epitome of me smash, that'd be awesome. Seems like a great candidate for powerful build. Or, even better yet, orc/troll. No, I don't know how you'd make that work, either.)

As far as classes, I really have ever had one opinion; base classes should be mechanically versatile as much as possible. However, with fluff, and the intertwining of fluff and mechanics, let the base class fall where it is needed. Usually a generic fluff for adaptability is usually preferable, but sometimes a more narrow or developed fluff is nice, because sometimes a character concept calls for someone knowing that stuff since the start.

Also Lord_Gareth, if that is how you win arguments... remind me to get into an argument with you sometime.

[Empedocles]

This... works strangely well. I *really* did not expect myself to see half-elf/half-orc as working, but you made it work very well. So, while your half-orc was awesome because it was awesome, I have to tip my figurative hat to you because this has both that and being awesome because this is not a concept I'd just expect to easily work. Are you sure you can't conjure up that half-dwarf half-orc that doesn't sound silly?

(Although, in all seriousness, now that I think of it, if you could make a functional orog (orc/ogre) that isn't just the epitome of me smash, that'd be awesome. Seems like a great candidate for powerful build. Or, even better yet, orc/troll. No, I don't know how you'd make that work, either.)

As far as classes, I really have ever had one opinion; base classes should be mechanically versatile as much as possible. However, with fluff, and the intertwining of fluff and mechanics, let the base class fall where it is needed. Usually a generic fluff for adaptability is usually preferable, but sometimes a more narrow or developed fluff is nice, because sometimes a character concept calls for someone knowing that stuff since the start.

Also Lord_Gareth, if that is how you win arguments... remind me to get into an argument with you sometime.

Okay, I'm officially inspired

The half-orc ogre and half-troll orc are possibilities, and maybe a half orc dwarf in the future.

I've also come up with two more bizarre combinations...but I have a plan for them :smallbiggrin. They are: half-elf goblin and half-elf harpy. I can't promise that all of these proposed races will come out as nicely as the voldur and the half-orc rewrite did...but I'll do my best and I'm fairly sure about at least two of the ideas.

[wayfare]

Okay, I'm officially inspired

The half-orc ogre and half-troll orc are possibilities, and maybe a half orc dwarf in the future.

I've also come up with two more bizarre combinations...but I have a plan for them :smallbiggrin. They are: half-elf goblin and half-elf harpy. I can't promise that all of these proposed races will come out as nicely as the voldur and the half-orc rewrite did...but I'll do my best and I'm fairly sure about at least two of the ideas.

Thanks, man, for adding a race that just needed to be made! this is the sort of thing that should be happening all the time between elves and orcs, what with their hisrory of war.

If you were going to make a dwarf hybrid, I would suggest using Hobgoblins or Bugbears as the other part of the union -- Orcs often conflict with elves, but the other goblinoids are all about raiding dwarf kingdoms.

[Empedocles]

Thanks, man, for adding a race that just needed to be made! this is the sort of thing that should be happening all the time between elves and orcs, what with their hisrory of war.

If you were going to make a dwarf hybrid, I would suggest using Hobgoblins or Bugbears as the other part of the union -- Orcs often conflict with elves, but the other goblinoids are all about raiding dwarf kingdoms.

You're welcome

The idea of using other goblinoids had occurred to me (mostly for mechanical things though) and you've convinced me that's the way to go! Thanks!

[willpell]

So far this is my favorite of your created races, although I don't know about giving away a Feat as high in the chain as Whirlwind Attack for free, seems like it would make a mockery out of all sorts of 8th-level fighters (who are already mad about the monks getting Stunning Fist at 2nd). And I think they should have both LLV and Darkvision, since Orcs have the latter; eyes that are not quite as light-sensitive as those of Orcs but still a little bit so would further justify the Wisdom penalty, even if they don't have a detached personality (because let's face it, roleplayers are always going to play their character the way they want to, whether or not it fits the type - indeed, Snowflakes being what they are, specifying an inherent racial trend is likely to increase the number of players who want to play some other way).

@ Wayfare: As far as I'm aware D&D does not consider orcs to be goblinoids, though I know many other systems do.

[Empedocles]

So far this is my favorite of your created races, although I don't know about giving away a Feat as high in the chain as Whirlwind Attack for free, seems like it would make a mockery out of all sorts of 8th-level fighters (who are already mad about the monks getting Stunning Fist at 2nd). And I think they should have both LLV and Darkvision, since Orcs have the latter; eyes that are not quite as light-sensitive as those of Orcs but still a little bit so would further justify the Wisdom penalty, even if they don't have a detached personality (because let's face it, roleplayers are always going to play their character the way they want to, whether or not it fits the type - indeed, Snowflakes being what they are, specifying an inherent racial trend is likely to increase the number of players who want to play some other way).

@ Wayfare: As far as I'm aware D&D does not consider orcs to be goblinoids, though I know many other systems do.

By created races, are you including basic race rewrites? because I'm definitely doing a sort of "take 2" on most of those....

I'm personally ok with giving out whirlwind attack. Sure, I'm making a mockery of fighters, but so is everything else in D&D.

I'm very happy with them just having LLV. Don't know why, but it feels right to me. If you ever use one though it'd be fine to add darkvision...

I agree with your points on fluff, and point to the drow as proof. People play a drow the way the want, regardless of how it fits in with the actual campaign world's drow.

[willpell]

I've seen your Half-Orc and your Drow and this (and glanced at the Emkami but didn't really get it, anyway that's a class not a race). If you've done any others I haven't looked at 'em.

[Empedocles]

I've seen your Half-Orc and your Drow and this (and glanced at the Emkami but didn't really get it, anyway that's a class not a race). If you've done any others I haven't looked at 'em.

Absolutely everything I've made can be found in the extended signature link in my sig. Also, and this made me laugh, the emkami? LOL sorry you didn't get it. It's a very specific concept.

[Amburst]

Wow man thanks! Now I feel like I should make more races and less base classes...

That'd be cool. I haven't looked at much of your stuff yet. But what i have seen is amazing.

I like throwing in weird and strange races in my games, and you have been making great stuff

[Empedocles]

That'd be cool. I haven't looked at much of your stuff yet. But what i have seen is amazing.

I like throwing in weird and strange races in my games, and you have been making great stuff

Glad you enjoy it I'm the first to admit though that not everything I make is, well, on part with other pieces of work.

Right now, I'm a little short on inspiration. Anything you'd like to see?

[Amburst]

Glad you enjoy it I'm the first to admit though that not everything I make is, well, on part with other pieces of work.

Right now, I'm a little short on inspiration. Anything you'd like to see?

I like your idea of a half elf harpy, though i don't like the base dnd harpies much.

Maybe some aquatic races. It seems to me that the watery areas of many worlds are only scratched at.

[Empedocles]

I like your idea of a half elf harpy, though i don't like the base dnd harpies much.

Maybe some aquatic races. It seems to me that the watery areas of many worlds are only scratched at.

Thats a brilliant idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Amburst]

Thats a brilliant idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yea, in the 3rd edition Monster Manual aquatic creatures seem to be only scratched at and their almost none existant online