Voldur: Half-elf, half-orc (3.5) If you read it, you'll want to play it. Promise.

[willpell]

A Tier 4 voldur melee character will dump two stats and gain bonuses to two other stats, and also get a double attack every round capitalizing on one of those bonus stats, and be much much better than a star elf warlock or gray elf warmage. Yes, yes it does matter. Literally doubling your attack output every round with a permanent racial bonus to both attacks is HUGE.

And you'll still get shot to death with a pixie with a bow, or a low-level wizard with a Grease or Glitterdust spell. I wish it wasn't true, but it is - 3.5 hates melee with a fiery unquenchable passion.

[Answerer]

That double attack must be against two different foes, and is only used 1/encounter unless you don't use your Move action – at which point you could just be TWF-ing or Whirling Frenzying, and therefore get to attack one guy twice (which is almost always the better option).

After you have BAB +6/+1, Steel Wind is relegated to "1/encounter, if you're forced to not make a Full Attack, you could do this." After +11/+6/+1, you're actively losing out on damage; at +16/+11/+6/+1 your damage is literally being halved if you can make the hits.

[willpell]

Mind you, I'm not against it or anything, I think it's a nice and fitting ability, especially at the low levels where melee still has some hope of relevance. But it's definitely not something that seems likely to be overpowered even with a lot of work devoted to optimizing it at low levels, and as answerer points out its relevance past level 12 or so is negligible (save perhaps on low-BAB classes if they're somehow forced into melee, but that's a stretch at best at the necessary CR).

[Veklim]

A Tier 4 voldur melee character will dump two stats and gain bonuses to two other stats, and also get a double attack every round capitalizing on one of those bonus stats, and be much much better than a star elf warlock or gray elf warmage. Yes, yes it does matter. Literally doubling your attack output every round with a permanent racial bonus to both attacks is HUGE.

Huge in relation to the horrifically underpowered melee style, yes. Which will effectively make melee into a viable choice for perhaps 2 or 3 levels longer than before. It's still underpowered in comparison with a reasonable bard build or a sub-standard fullcaster.

I fail to understand why you're knocking this for powering up melee when the general consensus is that MELEE NEEDS ALL THE HELP IT CAN GET!

[Empedocles]

To those who think steel wind is overpowered...it's literally the equivalent of 1 feat: martial study (steel wind).

[danzibr]

Hey Vilpich, what do you think of the two versions of Voldur?

Also, I'm working on that campaign. I expect to start it... probably in a couple weeks.

[Just to Browse]

willpell: That is because wizards are tier 1 and flight is a very strong ability. If your point is that things which everybody knows are overpowered make it OK for huge bonuses, then you should be OK with +20 strength because I pixie with a bow or a wizard with grease could still win. The logic is flawed.

Answerer: Yes, against two foes. And that is doubling your total damage output every turn where you can refresh it + 1 for the turn you get free. You are a melee character, so you use a move to get into the action, then use steel wind, then as you are attacked by several opponents you continue to use steel wind and deal double damage each round.

Veklim: So the fact that it's brokenly overpowered at low levels is OK because all Voldurs will take classes that make them useless at high levels?... That's just... I... just no.

Vilpich:No, it's much better than a feat. A feat gives something to you once per encounter, and this racial benefit gives it to you 2-4 times per encounter (once for free at the initiation, once every turn you refresh because you don't need to move).

In addition to that it comes with great stat boosts, has an excellent favored class for multiclassing, and gets better miscellaneous benefits than most races.

=====

Now this is a good race. It has an interesting background, unique abilities, and encourages people to play Tome of Battle (which they should). But it's on par with the a lesser aasimar classing as a spellcaster. That's good--I actually enjoy playing with strong races--but this obviously deviates from the norm of race balance.

[Veklim]

It's not brokenly overpowered. Truth is, the option of refreshing as a move action makes this choice only viable 1 or 2 times maximum per encounter, because unless the enemy is UNBELIEVABLY stupid, they will charge and attack the characters which look squishy, not the massive dude with the big sword. Half of the trouble for melee is action economy, the fact that you usually need to move to stay in the fight, at least every other round (unless of course you enjoy watching your support and non-melee characters getting slotted), and that makes full attacks uncommon at least 50% of the time, in many (if not most) encounters where you're fighting something with more than 2 or 3 intelligence.

As I said above (perhaps unclearly, since you seem to think I was agreeing it's overpowered, whereas I think I said the opposite reasonably succinctly), it makes a melee build marginally more effective for a few levels. That is, as long as you're not 2WF of course, in which case it's near-pointless to use anyhow.

To those who think steel wind is overpowered...it's literally the equivalent of 1 feat: martial study (steel wind).

No, it's much better than a feat. A feat gives something to you once per encounter, and this racial benefit gives it to you 2-4 times per encounter (once for free at the initiation, once every turn you refresh because you don't need to move).

Ermmm...nope. It's not as good as a feat, because it's not a choice of a feat, it's pre-chosen for you. I have never been in a campaign where the enemies line up to fight the fighter, every melee build I've ever played (and there's a fair few of them) has had the constant annoyance of having to catch up with the enemy before they shank the mage/rogue/healer etc, if you're playing in games where the fighter need not move, then you may have a point, I've just never once experienced a game like that.

[willpell]

Half of the trouble for melee is action economy, the fact that you usually need to move to stay in the fight, at least every other round (unless of course you enjoy watching your support and non-melee characters getting slotted), and that makes full attacks uncommon at least 50% of the time, in many (if not most) encounters where you're fighting something with more than 2 or 3 intelligence.

Characters cannot leave melee without risking an attack of opportunity. So once the voldur has moved to engage his target, he will probably stay engaged with his target until one of them dies. The opponent can 5-foot step away, and the voldur can 5-foot step in, then either full-attack or refresh steel wind and use it. Or the opponent can withdraw, make a full double-move away while doing nothing else, and the voldur can charge to re-engage, being limited to single attacks while the opponent keeps running away each round and never does anything, until and unless terrain prevents one of them from completing this pattern (if the fleeing character can find some rough terrain or a corner to go around, the voldur loses the ability to charge but can still hustle to keep them from getting away, so the only way the fight ever actually ends is if the victim can reach a horse or a boat or something, or finds a porcullis to drop or a cliff that he can climb which the voldur can't, or whatnot).

That is, as long as you're not 2WF of course, in which case it's near-pointless to use anyhow.

With Steel Wind to let you get multiple attacks, you don't need two weapons, you can afford to use a greatsword or something. And Voldur get good Strength, so they'll probably be adding between +3 and +6 on those attacks, with only one hit roll instead of two hit rolls at a -2 penalty thanks to TWF (for the same amount of bonus damage, and slightly less or slightly more base damage depending on weapon choices, though TWF does have the advantage of letting you use multiple energy types or similar special abilities on the separate weapons).

I have never been in a campaign where the enemies line up to fight the fighter

That's exactly the kind of campaign I run, because it's a comfortable place to start. True, it'll eventually get boring, but new people are learning the game every day, while most of the people who post in this forum are essentially grognards by now, regarding 3E as a solved equation and having ruled out too many of its possibilities because they don't hold up to a TO test. If you're that kind of player maybe voldur isn't for you, but it'd be GREAT for someone like me, someone for whom lining up with a passel of bugbears and going into Cuisinart mode is good clean fun which doesn't overwork my brain after a long day at my job (where I use it a great deal, in spite of my employer's wishes).

if you're playing in games where the fighter need not move, then you may have a point, I've just never once experienced a game like that.

Maybe you should just have a game where there aren't any squishy combatants for the opponent to run back and attack. Clerics are tanks, duskblades can fill the need for an arcane caster while still tanking, a factotum can be the party rogue and drop a feat on Medium AP without inconveniencing himself...an all-tank party is not impossible.

[nonsi]

I have never been in a campaign where the enemies line up to fight the fighter, every melee build I've ever played (and there's a fair few of them) has had the constant annoyance of having to catch up with the enemy before they shank the mage/rogue/healer etc, if you're playing in games where the fighter need not move, then you may have a point, I've just never once experienced a game like that.

Sound like my Warrior is the perfect solution for all of your problems.

[Veklim]

@willpell
I'm not dissing the Voldur, nor am I saying I'd not play one, in fact I'd love to! I am merely pointing out to some critics here that the Steel Wind ability is far from OP. Even with your examples it's only really relevant with 2 enemies, otherwise the moment you charge into combat, you're tying 2 down whilst everyone else is free to pick their own targets and go. This means that the ability merely replaces a 2WF build at early levels, allowing you to use 2HW against more than 1 target, a nice thing, but not OTT. You must remember though, that a 2WF build could throw both attacks at 1 target, whereas this can't. Tit for tat eh?!

We rarely do standard dungeon crawls with lots of corridors (where the Steel Wind would truly excel as I see it), often ending up in reasonably open area combat instead. Thing is, you're only effective with the ability when there's 2+ enemies within reach, meaning single enemy encounters nullify it, and large group encounters mostly ignore the fact you're hitting 2 enemies per turn instead of 1, at least for the first couple of rounds.

Also, my arguement was to counter the statement that giving something Steel Wind as a racial ability was OP in itself. If you're running with factotums then this race is the least of your troubles for OP gameplay! As far as I see it, Steel Wind merely shoehorns you into melee builds a bit, although the idea of a rogue Voldur is one which makes me giggle like a schoolgirl, I must say!

Basically, the moment you drop one of the 2 enemies in front of you, there's no using Steel Wind until you can find another target within reach. Steel Wind is therefore powerful, but highly situational, and I can see no reason to call it overpowered. This was all I was trying to say!

@nonsi
Oooooooo, me likey...you were indeed correct!

[Larkas]

To those who think steel wind is overpowered...it's literally the equivalent of 1 feat: martial study (steel wind).

I've been thinking... What if you simply gave the voldur Martial Study as a bonus feat, which it may spend in any maneuver from a discipline available to Warblades, and give it another ability that says that it can recover any maneuver that doesn't have a recovery method as a move (or standard) action? That way, the race would have more versatility by choosing the maneuver, could still recover it if its 1st level isn't in any initiator class, and would have the extra versatility of having a recovery method for every maneuver that doesn't have them, such as the ones learned through Martial Study by non-initiators!

[nonsi]

I've been thinking... What if you simply gave the voldur Martial Study as a bonus feat, which it may spend in any maneuver from a discipline available to Warblades, and give it another ability that says that it can recover any maneuver that doesn't have a recovery method as a move (or standard) action? That way, the race would have more versatility by choosing the maneuver, could still recover it if its 1st level isn't in any initiator class, and would have the extra versatility of having a recovery method for every maneuver that doesn't have them, such as the ones learned through Martial Study by non-initiators!

I have a better idea.
Instead of shoehorning it into the martial role, give it Darkvision and be done with.

[Larkas]

I have a better idea.
Instead of shoehorning it into the martial role, give it Darkvision and be done with.

Yeah, 'cause Darkvision would totally help it with other roles.

[danzibr]

Martial Study is more flavorful than Darkvision, I think. If I were making a Voldur, I'd keep the flavor in mind. Reminds me of the Aasimar-Tiefling mix.

[willpell]

It bugs me on a certain level that Voldur get LLV and not DV, given that they have one parent for each; then again, it also bugs me that they are as dextrous as Elves and "almost" as strong as Orcs. Perhaps that's the way to get your Greater Voldur, Danzibr? Give them +4 Strength, Darkvision, and something that elves get? AFAIK there aren't any Orc subraces while Elfs have a different subrace for every environment they live in; perhaps the Greater Voldur has a set of regional variants that all get special abilities reminiscent of the local Elf subrace.

[Larkas]

Well, you DO have Water Orcs, but I suppose it might not be wise to go there...

[danzibr]

It bugs me on a certain level that Voldur get LLV and not DV, given that they have one parent for each; then again, it also bugs me that they are as dextrous as Elves and "almost" as strong as Orcs. Perhaps that's the way to get your Greater Voldur, Danzibr? Give them +4 Strength, Darkvision, and something that elves get? AFAIK there aren't any Orc subraces while Elfs have a different subrace for every environment they live in; perhaps the Greater Voldur has a set of regional variants that all get special abilities reminiscent of the local Elf subrace.

That's what I was kind of thinking. Great Voldur get all the benefits of both races, lesser, well... don't. However, I also think there should be something more than taking the best of each, like the current Steel Wind thingy.

Well, you DO have Water Orcs, but I suppose it might not be wise to go there...

Yeah, but IIRC there are way more Elf subraces. Still, both races do have environmental variants.

[Larkas]

I always thought of Orcs as variant goblinoids, but I guess I owe that thinking to Tolkien; more specifically, to The Hobbit.

[danzibr]

I always thought of Orcs as variant goblinoids, but I guess I owe that thinking to Tolkien; more specifically, to The Hobbit.

That... hmm, I wonder. In D&D lore I have no idea how Orcs are biologically related to Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc. In LotR they're mutated (well, kinda) Elves, as commonly known.

On an unrelated note, this thread makes me want to do some homebrew combining other races which you usually wouldn't think of combining. Goliath-Gnome? Interesting.

[Lord_Gareth]

Answerer: Yes, against two foes. And that is doubling your total damage output every turn where you can refresh it + 1 for the turn you get free. You are a melee character, so you use a move to get into the action, then use steel wind, then as you are attacked by several opponents you continue to use steel wind and deal double damage each round.

Veklim: So the fact that it's brokenly overpowered at low levels is OK because all Voldurs will take classes that make them useless at high levels?... That's just... I... just no.

Vilpich:No, it's much better than a feat. A feat gives something to you once per encounter, and this racial benefit gives it to you 2-4 times per encounter (once for free at the initiation, once every turn you refresh because you don't need to move).

In addition to that it comes with great stat boosts, has an excellent favored class for multiclassing, and gets better miscellaneous benefits than most races.

So, I just got off the phone, and it turns out that color spray, burning hands, fighters with greatswords, raging barbarians, the entire Warblade class, the Cleave feat, the standard-issue Orc race, Warforged, Humans (all of them), Strongheart Halflings, Dwarves, and Raptorans would all like deep and intense words with how objectively wrong the idea that the Steel Wind racial is 'brokenly overpowered' is.

See, thing is this: low levels? They're swingy. They're hilariously swingy. It's not uncommon for one or two hits to end a creature or a PC from level 1-3 - sometimes 1-5 depending on what kind of creatures a DM favors - and there's a slew of effects like color spray that end entire encounters in a single fight. Giving the Voldur a marginal improvement on Martial Study: Steel Wind is a complete and utter non-issue in every way that it's possible for it to be a non-issue in.

[Just to Browse]

LG, I like you and I like the things you do, and I honestly don't want to get into a fight with you, especially when you're making points to which the only response seems to be "No it doesn't work that way." So I'm going to move on.

===

Concerning "Enemies Won't Line Up for the Fighter": If your enemies work that way, then the fighter stands in front of the squishes and gives at least one enemy an AoO as they pass by. Then he continues to spam steel wind. The problem doesn't actually change, he's just standing somewhere else.

On Martial Study: I actually don't like the Voldur only having martial study and his stat bonuses--martial study isn't all that great of a feat unless you're picking up a boost.

Personally, I'd have the voldur keep steel wind, but have it only refresh if he hits someone. This way he spends round one attacking a guy, then hits his steel wind in R2, then attacks another guy in round 3.... and AoOs probably shouldn't refresh it. At high levels, there are ways around that, but at high levels steel wind isn't very useful anyhow.

[Lord_Gareth]

Dude, if you want an example of a race that's melee-heavy, this is a race that's melee-heavy and intentionally designed above-the-curve for a specific environment (in this case, the world of Dreavarr).

[eftexar]

I'm going to step in and point out that this argument is just going is circles now. I say let vilpich make his final decision and move onto something else, before this becomes completely unproductive.

Such as the elven and orcish blood thing. What if an affect, for whatever odd reason, targets orcs and elves doing something different for each? Would the voldur be affected by both effects? Just thought you might want to address that.
What do you think about having a secondary (and optional) favored class as a backup. Essentially I'm thinking what if somebody doesn't have tome of battle?

A couple of things on the paragon class. I don't think it should have all good saves (not because it would be overpowered, but because I think all characters should have at least one bad save).
And I really feel like the paragon class is sort of boring. The race offers a maneuver and so is interesting, but I would much sooner take levels of fighter than levels of paragon. It doesn't have anything active to use and the bonuses aren't too unusual (as they come standard on many races) or sweeping. For example, how about an effective size increase in certain situations instead of a strength boost?

[Empedocles]

I'm going to step in and point out that this argument is just going is circles now. I say let vilpich make his final decision and move onto something else, before this becomes completely unproductive.

Such as the elven and orcish blood thing. What if an affect, for whatever odd reason, targets orcs and elves doing something different for each? Would the voldur be affected by both effects? Just thought you might want to address that.
What do you think about having a secondary (and optional) favored class as a backup. Essentially I'm thinking what if somebody doesn't have tome of battle?

A couple of things on the paragon class. I don't think it should have all good saves (not because it would be overpowered, but because I think all characters should have at least one bad save).
And I really feel like the paragon class is sort of boring. The race offers a maneuver and so is interesting, but I would much sooner take levels of fighter than levels of paragon. It doesn't have anything active to use and the bonuses aren't too unusual (as they come standard on many races) or sweeping. For example, how about an effective size increase in certain situations instead of a strength boost?

Yay! A constructive comment! Thanks!

Final verdict is, for me, as my homebrew, this isn't overpowered. If you think it is, replace the recovery-oriented steel wind power with normal martial study bonus feat.

I'm ok with the paragon being boring, but I will think on it. Basically, all paragons are pretty lackluster, so I didn't put too much into mine. Not really feeling the size increase idea, but I will give it something more unique. Oh, and I like the all good saves as is.

I'll add a secondary favored class for ToB newbies.

[137beth]

For languages, why is it fluent in both elven and orcish? If it was shunned by both parent races and only wanders, wouldn't it only know as much elvish/orcish as any other language?

[Empedocles]

For languages, why is it fluent in both elven and orcish? If it was shunned by both parent races and only wanders, wouldn't it only know as much elvish/orcish as any other language?

Good point...

[willpell]

Well, you DO have Water Orcs, but I suppose it might not be wise to go there...

If that's the elemental races from Unearthed Arcana, they're an optional variant and don't count. There are no Water Orcs in the MM1.

[Empedocles]

If that's the elemental races from Unearthed Arcana, they're an optional variant and don't count. There are no Water Orcs in the MM1.

They, uh, don't count?

If we want to get technical on orc variants, not including elemental/environmental variants, we have...

Mountain Orcs
Orogs
Gray Orcs
Scro
Sharakim
Losel
Tanarukks

[willpell]

Mountain Orcs
Orogs
Gray Orcs
Scro
Sharakim
Losel
Tanarukks

Most of those I haven't heard of, but I believe several of them are specific to a single campaign world (Forgotten Realms in the case of Tanarruk and I believe Orog, plus Tanarruk are Planetouched, and thus don't count as a subrace of normal orcs just as Fey'ri don't count as a subrace of normal elves), and thus continue to not count. The Sharakim are in the mainstream of 3E, but they're not even really orcs, they are (or at least believe themselves to be) transformed humans, who look like orcs but do everything they can to prove they aren't really. This leaves Gray Orcs, Scro, and Losel which I've never heard of, and Mountain Orcs which I think I glimpsed were mentioned in a Scarred Lands book I happen to have, and am not aware of them existing elsewhere.