Voldur: Half-elf, half-orc (3.5) If you read it, you'll want to play it. Promise.

[Empedocles]

Most of those I haven't heard of, but I believe several of them are specific to a single campaign world (Forgotten Realms in the case of Tanarruk and I believe Orog, plus Tanarruk are Planetouched, and thus don't count as a subrace of normal orcs just as Fey'ri don't count as a subrace of normal elves), and thus continue to not count. The Sharakim are in the mainstream of 3E, but they're not even really orcs, they are (or at least believe themselves to be) transformed humans, who look like orcs but do everything they can to prove they aren't really. This leaves Gray Orcs, Scro, and Losel which I've never heard of, and Mountain Orcs which I think I glimpsed were mentioned in a Scarred Lands book I happen to have, and am not aware of them existing elsewhere.

Ok...you seem to have a slightly silly definition of what does and doesn't count (no offense). Something is campaign setting specific...so it doesn't count? Artificer doesn't count as a class?

Sharakim are classified as an orc subrace, it's just that their fluff varies from the norm. Gray orcs are also from Forgotten Realms (which apparently means they don't count....). Scro and Losel are from Dragon magazine I believe. Does that make them not count either...?

EDIT: Frostblood orc. Dragon Magic. I dare you to argue with that

[willpell]

Ok...you seem to have a slightly silly definition of what does and doesn't count (no offense). Something is campaign setting specific...so it doesn't count?

Correct. There are no Tanarruk anywhere other than on Faerun (or in some setting where the GM imported them from Faerun); therefore they aren't

Artificer doesn't count as a class?

Classes don't answer to the same standard as races. A class is a learned set of skills, sometimes coupled with a power source or other detail which might be campaign-specific; you couldn't have Warlocks in a setting where it's explicitly impossible for people to have magic in their blood, but for the most part classes are quintessential. Ruling a purely training-and-knowledge based class out-of-universe would suggest that attempting to practice that vocation just doesn't work for no real reason, so for the most part classes will always translate.

Races, however, are particular species of creature which are only found in certain campaign worlds; it makes as much sense to say there are no Orogs outside Faerun as to say there are no polar bears outside the Arctic (zoos excepted), only even more so, since the Arctic is physically connected to the rest of the world and a polar bear could theoretically migrate if given a reason. Orogs from Faerun have no possible way of transporting themselves to Krynn or Mystara or even Greyhawk; those worlds don't even exist in the same multiverse, interplanar portals can't connect them, except in a specific campaign multiverse designed to contain them both, which is distinct from the "true" versions of those worlds.

Scro and Losel are from Dragon magazine I believe. Does that make them not count either...?

At least for my purposes it does, since I don't have those Dragons. (Really, putting official content in a magazine was one of the more spectacularly dumb ideas TSR/Wotco ever had; it's hard enough just to collect all the books.)

EDIT: Frostblood orc. Dragon Magic. I dare you to argue with that

I don't know that supplement, and scuttlebutt suggests that it was kind of farted out just to make money when there wasn't really a need for it, so who knows.

[paddyfool]

Liking this much more than I thought I would.

Any intention to make some racial substitution levels for it? I could see something interesting being done for wilderness-themed classes, like Ranger, what with the elven connection to the wild and orc savagery.

[danzibr]

For languages, why is it fluent in both elven and orcish? If it was shunned by both parent races and only wanders, wouldn't it only know as much elvish/orcish as any other language?

Good point...

I meant to say something on this earlier. I'd think whichever parent raised them, likely the Elf. That is, common and one other is what I'd suggest.

[Empedocles]

Correct. There are no Tanarruk anywhere other than on Faerun (or in some setting where the GM imported them from Faerun); therefore they aren't

So you're saying...I can't adapt it? I could never, ever have planetouched orcs...because the only one written by WotC was put in a campaign specific supplement?

Classes don't answer to the same standard as races. A class is a learned set of skills, sometimes coupled with a power source or other detail which might be campaign-specific; you couldn't have Warlocks in a setting where it's explicitly impossible for people to have magic in their blood, but for the most part classes are quintessential. Ruling a purely training-and-knowledge based class out-of-universe would suggest that attempting to practice that vocation just doesn't work for no real reason, so for the most part classes will always translate.

Races, however, are particular species of creature which are only found in certain campaign worlds; it makes as much sense to say there are no Orogs outside Faerun as to say there are no polar bears outside the Arctic (zoos excepted), only even more so, since the Arctic is physically connected to the rest of the world and a polar bear could theoretically migrate if given a reason. Orogs from Faerun have no possible way of transporting themselves to Krynn or Mystara or even Greyhawk; those worlds don't even exist in the same multiverse, interplanar portals can't connect them, except in a specific campaign multiverse designed to contain them both, which is distinct from the "true" versions of those worlds.

Yes, they do. It's called the DM wanting one in his game. End of story Plenty of people play warforged outside of Eberron....

At least for my purposes it does, since I don't have those Dragons. (Really, putting official content in a magazine was one of the more spectacularly dumb ideas TSR/Wotco ever had; it's hard enough just to collect all the books.)

For your purposes? So now it doesn't count because you don't have it?

I don't know that supplement, and scuttlebutt suggests that it was kind of farted out just to make money when there wasn't really a need for it, so who knows.

So...because it wasn't necessary, it doesn't count?

[Morph Bark]

They, uh, don't count?

If we want to get technical on orc variants, not including elemental/environmental variants, we have...

Mountain Orcs
Orogs
Gray Orcs
Scro
Sharakim
Losel
Tanarukks

Aren't Orogs a half-breed with ogres in some obscure 3rd party setting? Dunno what Scro and Losel are. Sharakim I've always found confusing on what they were. Tanarukks and Water Orcs are awesome.

Correct. There are no Tanarruk anywhere other than on Faerun (or in some setting where the GM imported them from Faerun); therefore they aren't

IIRC, they're in Fiend Folio as well, not just a Faerun-specific book. This means they also exist outside of Faerun and exist in any generic DnD setting unless otherwise specified.

Furthermore, I believe there was an official setting in which Eberron, the Forgotten Realms and one other setting (Dragonlance I believe) were connected in a kind of trinity of realms.

[Empedocles]

Aren't Orogs a half-breed with ogres in some obscure 3rd party setting? Dunno what Scro and Losel are. Sharakim I've always found confusing on what they were. Tanarukks and Water Orcs are awesome.

IIRC, they're in Fiend Folio as well, not just a Faerun-specific book. This means they also exist outside of Faerun and exist in any generic DnD setting unless otherwise specified.

I wouldn't call it some obscure 3rd party setting...just Forgotten Realms....

As to being in the Fiend Folio...good point!

[Larkas]

Furthermore, I believe there was an official setting in which Eberron, the Forgotten Realms and one other setting (Dragonlance I believe) were connected in a kind of trinity of realms.

Don't know if that's what you mean, but in Spelljammer, Greyspace (Greyhawk), Krynnspace (Dragonlance) and Realmspace (Forgotten Realms) are pretty much connected, with Phlogiston currents easily bringing a jammer from one crystal sphere to the other. As an analogy, think of the ocean current connecting Europe to the Americas.

[willpell]

So you're saying...I can't adapt it? I could never, ever have planetouched orcs...because the only one written by WotC was put in a campaign specific supplement?

Certainly you can do that in YOUR game, but it's not the default truth in ALL games until a DM specifies otherwise; the existence of wood elves and wild elves and drow is.

For your purposes? So now it doesn't count because you don't have it?

So...because it wasn't necessary, it doesn't count?

AFAIC, yes in both cases. Others are free to rule otherwise.

IIRC, they're in Fiend Folio as well, not just a Faerun-specific book. This means they also exist outside of Faerun and exist in any generic DnD setting unless otherwise specified.

Fiend Folio is canonical? I had thought otherwise.

Don't know if that's what you mean, but in Spelljammer, Greyspace (Greyhawk), Krynnspace (Dragonlance) and Realmspace (Forgotten Realms) are pretty much connected, with Phlogiston currents easily bringing a jammer from one crystal sphere to the other. As an analogy, think of the ocean current connecting Europe to the Americas.

Interesting. But all that is true only in Spelljamer multiverses; other multiverses are equally defined by their lack of Spelljammer, or of any other campaign setting. My campaign world Whiteleaf for example is a modified Greyhawk (purged of most Gygaxian creations), explicitly created by aspects of the detities who left Oerth and created a "better" version of that world (without the goofy name that EGG intentionally created to be goofy because he thought Fantasy of the day took itself too seriously, an assessment I don't agree with). Accessing the original Oerth from Whiteleaf is explicitly impossible, and it will likewise never cross over with the mainstream Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms settings, as both are bloated with continuity that I'm not familiar with. Thusly even if a crossover point did exist between Whiteleaf and Aber-Toril, it wouldn't be the "real" Forgotten Realms, but my approximation thereof (and Elminster would be nowhere to be found, that alone should tell you it'd be different). Eberron is nowhere near as old and heavily-evolved, so if I crossed over with it, it'd be more nearly the original, but still not a perfect match for the universe as Keith Baker envisions it, since I'm not inside his head nor would I share all his priorities.

[Larkas]

I was addressing Morph Bark, really, but since you touched the subject, I can't help but giving my opinion on this: saying something doesn't exist is as arbitrary as saying that it does. Following your example, Gray Elves are default issue in 3.5, being in the Monster Manual and all. Should you take that to mean they exist everywhere? Of course not. They don't exist in Toril, for example, where the closest thing you can get to a Gray Elf is a Gold Elf (IIRC, at least). There is no such thing as "canon" D&D, only what Dungeon Masters want to be canon in their world. Star Elves and Gold Elves are as much an Elven subrace as Mountain and Gray Orcs are an Orcish subrace, even if they are "not supposed to be everywhere"; though they can be if the DM thinks they should. As can the Tanarruk or the Fey'ri, who are as valid Planetouched as an Aasimar or a Tiefling. Likewise, the DM can easily rule that Kobolds don't exist in his/her world, just as in your campaign I suppose Zagig Yragerne doesn't exist.

What I want to say is: just because Tanarruks supposedly don't exist everywhere, it doesn't mean that they are not a valid orc subrace. The fact that they are not a subrace at all but planetouched, though, does.

Anyways, on a tangent, do you keep your notes on this Whiteleaf campaign anywhere? I'd love to take a look at them, as I like Greyhawk overall, but really think it could do a lot better without some of the more silly stuff.

[danzibr]

This thread seems like it's getting totally derailed.

Hey Vilpich, what do you think of the lesser and great Voldurs? Or whatever they'd be called. Might be a good opportunity to mix it up, if you wish.

[willpell]

Following your example, Gray Elves are default issue in 3.5, being in the Monster Manual and all. Should you take that to mean they exist everywhere?

Unless the DM or a campaign setting states otherwise, yes, I would assume that a random D&D 3E campaign world contains all things in the Core 3 books and does not contain anything else, until the DM states otherwise. Established settings such as Forgotten Realms have their own books which supplement the core for this purpose and specifically state what they contain (whether they imply the absence of things they don't specify or intentionally exclude them with a blanket statement I'm not sure; Eberron is a special case in that it explicitly includes everything, whereas if I published Whiteleaf it would contain the opposite, a disclaimer that nothing is canonical there unless the book or the DM says it is).

Fun fact, when one of my players wanted to play a Gold Elf in Whiteleaf, I worked out the idea that the Gold and Gray elves had a shared society in which the Grays, having a more attentuated skill set, were an elite minority which tended to control the society. I also somehow worked out that they tended toward psionics, and had lost the elven love of nature from being isolated in their arcane laboratories building magic items all the time. The player in question objected somewhat to the idea that elves would ever not have trees growing out of the middle of their city, and thought that "lives on a mountain" means "lives in a forested temperate belt halfway up a mountain" rather than "lives on the very peak of the mountain where everything is bare rock". I worked out a compromise where the gold elves tended to dwell further down the mountain, used a lot of magic to get a few trees to grow, and were beginning to suspect the grays of corruption due to their not caring about nature so much, even while elves that didn't live on a mountain suspected both "mountain elf" varieties of the same. All this came up entirely because i susbstituted Auran for Sylvan on their language list, originally just to be different.

Likewise, the DM can easily rule that Kobolds don't exist in his/her world, just as in your campaign I suppose Zagig Yragerne doesn't exist.

Correct. Kobolds are actually another one I picked on; the word "kobold" is the German equivalent to "brownie" or "leprechaun", and I had a problem with them being reptiles. I figured out from a few old illustrations that the kobolds were at one point pictured as scaly red goblinoids, which is close enough to being some sort of fey that I was okay with it, but that earlier and later illustrations had distorted them into the Compsognathus-looking dudes we know and love, so I decided to keep those guys around but give them a new name, and have a race of mischevious trap-building goblinoids that were actually called Kobolds, and didn't share the connection to dragons that the reptilian race does. The goblinoid Kobolds are scaly but don't count as reptiles, just as bugbears are furry but don't count as mammals; both are goblinoids, meaning they're not a natural species but a form of corrupted fey whose biology doesn't follow logical patterns.

Anyways, on a tangent, do you keep your notes on this Whiteleaf campaign anywhere? I'd love to take a look at them, as I like Greyhawk overall, but really think it could do a lot better without some of the more silly stuff.

I have yet to do a formal writeup, but have been increasingly thinking one is called for. I'm a bit leery of some of the legal issues involved, but mostly my not having done it yet is more laziness than anything.

This thread seems like it's getting totally derailed.

I do tend to have that effect....

[Morph Bark]

Fiend Folio is canonical? I had thought otherwise.

It's from an official book, hence it is canon, yes. All official books are (barring campaign setting-specific ones, since we're concerned with the default setting here), hence why I say that all the things in those books exist unless otherwise specified. By this I mean unless otherwise specified by the DM. The DM has the final say about the world, but until that is given, the default applies. In many cases this will mean that a lot of things from the books aren't canon, because the DM does not have access to that book or does not like that book.

Thus I agree with everything Larkan has said, other than his notion that "there is no canon DnD". There is. DMs are simply free to ignore it.


Back to the important matter though, if there would be "greater" Voldur (as these would clearly be the "lesser" ones, or rather the standard ones), what extras would they get? Would they be a wholly different race or would standard Voldur be able to become greater Voldur through a ritual (a la Dragonwrought Kobold)?

In the latter case I'd suggest the ritual give them an additional +2 Str and allow them to treat noninitiator classes as granting 3/4 initiator levels rather than 1/2.

In the former case I'd replace their low-light vision for darkvision out to 60 ft, give +2 Str and remove the Wisdom penalty, as well as allowing them to "retrain" their Steel Wind for higher level maneuvers from Iron Heart, their effective initiator level for that maneuver being equal to their level. LA+1?

[willpell]

In the latter case I'd suggest the ritual give them an additional +2 Str and allow them to treat noninitiator classes as granting 3/4 initiator levels rather than 1/2.

That's a rather mathy option and of little value until levels get high.

In the former case I'd replace their low-light vision for darkvision out to 60 ft

That's not a strictly for-the-better trade though. LLV potentially gives you the ability to see much further away with a moderately decent light source. I think they should keep both; that would put them about on a par with Drow, who have darkvision 120.

[danzibr]

Couple things.

Hey Vilpich, is this race totally done? I mean, are you absolutely satisfied with it? Just wondering.

Well, the first arc of my 3-20 campaign is nearing completion. I expect another 2 weeks until it's 100% (or as close to 100% a DM can actually get a campaign). And as I mentioned, I'd like to test it out as a brief all-Voldur campaign. It'll be pretty standard stuff and bring the party from 3 to 6. I'm posting here to see if people are still interested (or if there's any new interest). I don't want to post in the actual PbP place because I'm not actually ready to run it yet.

Also, as a heads up, my maps are crude, like reminiscent of NES games. They get the point across though.

[Virdish]

Would you be willing to let it be a voldur/sangavido campaign (Sangavido are the half orc/half human write up Vilpich did) if not I'll play a voldur but was really looking forward to trying his sangavido.

[Empedocles]

Couple things.

Hey Vilpich, is this race totally done? I mean, are you absolutely satisfied with it? Just wondering.

Well, the first arc of my 3-20 campaign is nearing completion. I expect another 2 weeks until it's 100% (or as close to 100% a DM can actually get a campaign). And as I mentioned, I'd like to test it out as a brief all-Voldur campaign. It'll be pretty standard stuff and bring the party from 3 to 6. I'm posting here to see if people are still interested (or if there's any new interest). I don't want to post in the actual PbP place because I'm not actually ready to run it yet.

Also, as a heads up, my maps are crude, like reminiscent of NES games. They get the point across though.

Sweet! And yeah, they're completely finished, although PEACHes are always welcome.

Would you be willing to let it be a voldur/sangavido campaign (Sangavido are the half orc/half human write up Vilpich did) if not I'll play a voldur but was really looking forward to trying his sangavido.

That'd be pretty cool.

[danzibr]

Would you be willing to let it be a voldur/sangavido campaign (Sangavido are the half orc/half human write up Vilpich did) if not I'll play a voldur but was really looking forward to trying his sangavido.

Hmm. Yeah, I remember seeing his Half-Orc homebrew. Originally I meant for it to be all-Voldur for playtesting reasons, but... I'll think about it. Might be cool, a band of misfit Orc hybrids.

[Empedocles]

Hmm. Yeah, I remember seeing his Half-Orc homebrew. Originally I meant for it to be all-Voldur for playtesting reasons, but... I'll think about it. Might be cool, a band of misfit Orc hybrids.

Just don't expect a good party face.

[danzibr]

Just don't expect a good party face.

Lol yeah. Or if we stick with Voldur a good healer. I'm sure it can be done but those penalties hurt.

[willpell]

Just don't expect a good party face.

Sharakim (Races of Destiny).

[Empedocles]

Sharakim (Races of Destiny).

Uh, not if the party is voldur and sangavido only

[willpell]

No, but it would still qualify as all-orc, which I thought might be close enough.

[danzibr]

Right, currently all-Voldur.

[Empedocles]

No, but it would still qualify as all-orc, which I thought might be close enough.

At the absolute most, it'll be sangavido and voldur exclusive (as far as I understand), and probably just voldur.

[danzibr]

As promised, all-Voldur campaign.

[Cipher Stars]

0-0
*thinks*
Well. Now if you can find an image of a female one, I think I know what my next character's race is going to be.
*Already tried >.>*

I think its a really good image, and I couldn't dream up a more perfect union for a half elf half orc.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

I know I'm a bit late to the party but I just came across this thread through google and I love the concept.

Not really too into the whole numbercrunch aspects of the game, I just have this little bit of flavor to contribute.

"What are you called?"
"Vol dur."
"Greetings then, Voldur. And what is your kind called?"
"Vol dur."
"You and your kind are both named Voldur?"
"It's orc tongue. It means Just me."
"Huh?"
"There are no others like me. There is just me."

[Chuck_Man]

Sorry to res an old post but I have really enjoyed playing this race over the last year since I saw your post, circumstances have changed and I'm no longer with my 3.5 group, but I've found a 5e group, which will be letting me DM after this current campaign is over, in the world I am creating humans have only existed to about 100 years, most other races have living people who can remember the first human. I was wondering if it would be ok for me to convert this race to a 5e race or at least try to, so that I can offer it to the players an a more common alternate then the standard half orc. Thanks in advance for a response, and as I said, love the race.

[commander panda]

you should probably send him a PM. this is a good way to get the thread locked.