Classy d20 System [PEACH]

[Lappy9001]

We really do. So what's going on: I roll d20 to determine my attack. And I:
a) should immediately, before I know the result, decide whether I want to reroll;
b) look at the roll results and decide if I want to reroll?

Oh! I think I see, you think the result of the roll! I meant, before you know if the roll is successful. I totally understand how you came to that conclusion now, I'll clarify.

So you roll, decide if it's too low, then use a reroll, or not (before the GM tell you've succeeded of failed; this of course relies on the GM being half-fair and decent to give you that couple seconds to decide).

Any that you want it to have?

It should just be one when you receive the maneuver. I'll clarify that too.

Exactly what I said about rogues, yeah.

Let's put that at a definite 'We'll see'. I've gotta tinker with that a little.

Read longer by one word? Oh no, no, instant wall of text. Seriously.

I can totally imagine a spell that can't be used on self. It's kinda intuitive to have buff effects that can only be used on others, so that the caster is in support role and needs others to fight for him.

It really, really should be specified.

I think everything in Classy d20 either affects an "ally", multiple "allies", one "enemy", or multiple "enemies". I do see your point. I'll work on that too.

So, since rations are optional, this part of the ability is meaningless and useless, isn't it?

Then, how many fights do you think are going to be fought on difficult terrain? People usually seek out a convenient position.

And about being tracked - usually what's important is not how many of you there is, but whether you can be tracked at all. How big your team is is simple intelligence, if someone has a reason to track you he probably knows that already. And seriously, underestimating the team? Oh noes I thought there were five of them but there's really six horrors horrors my entire plan to ambush them with a hundred warriors is broken!

Wild Walker is an awesome ability for someone who works alone, or for a whole team of characters with it. It increases their speed in the forest and mountains and so on, it lets them escape pursuit, it lets them survive without visiting towns too often (optional, OK, but I as a DM would track that whenever it's possible that they run out).

I'd let the character at least cover tracks of the whole team, maybe at the expence of speed...

For the difficult terrain thing, it will probably come up quite a bit, especially if you're using the collateral damage variant.

Hmm...I like coverting tracks of the whole party, good idea!

Oh yes I am. I dig Good, generally, and I so so dig healing abilities

Also, I dig white hair and being unique. Those are both characters from a story I am currently thinking about, and it's just a coincidence that both aasimars from a whole team of humans were the first to be wholly built. Or not. I just dig aasimars.

There's gonna be a fluff section too, to give ideas like using the light cantrip as a halo.

That in-between class is surprisingly limited. Unless you are MAD, you have a very small choice of optimised skills. The jack-of-all-trades class having less choice than specialized classes? How does that make sense?

Well, it is optimal if you can use ALL your maneuvers all the time, if you take all base maneuvers it's a pretty dumb build unless you have reasons to think your warrior will have to switch equipment all the time and that's not exactly frequent.

This will probably be less important once you start giving base maneuvers for free, it will give incentive to take them all over the place, and the warriors will just kinda have more slots, too.

A warrior can use any combination of maneuvers they want. Can you imagine a rogue with Endurance, Mechanics, Perception, Stealth and Speech? All five? They are not contradictory in flavor, but they use five different attribues. That's MAD.

They do have ways to compensate. Dilettante gives you a free trained skill that you can alter multiple times per day at higher levels. Opportunist gives you damage and attack comparable to a warrior.

Of course, a rogue is still getting Talents. You're talking like they're just getting a minor skill boost and nothing else. Warriors can use maneuvers all the time, but they are limited by what they have equipped.

Effectively, throughout the build you can max two ability scores. Your primary attribute and another one of your choice. You can raise three instead, but then two non-primary ones will be smaller.

Take a rogue with Int as a primary attribute. If she chooses to raise Dex each milestone, she won't have high Wis for Nature and Perception. If she chooses to raise Wis, she won't have high Dex and won't be able to fight effectively.

The static numbers aren't as important. The talents are more important, it's actually a pivotal aspect of the system. This is the reason why rogue talents also allow rerolls, and why rogues get more essentia than anyone else.

[QUOTE=Liliet;16562261]Maximum starting ability score is 4, and you normally want to put it into your primary attribute. Maximum optimised ability score is 7, and if it synergises with your race, 8. That's twice as much

Also, about the system being generous. You are saying that if the roll is more than 15 points, you should drop it and try again. Problem is, 15 is an average roll. You do not ask to drop the highest, you ask to drop half the rolls. That's harsh.

And 12 points for point-buy is really low compared to dice rolls.

Here is a good reference for dice roll stats.

Dropping the separation between attributes and modifiers is an excellent idea, and so is making all modifiers positive, but by doing so you compressed the range of possible modifiers twice and changed possibility distribution )=.[QUOTE=Liliet;16562261]You got me there, I'll look at that.

You are opposed to out-of-combat interaction?

Whoops, meant in-game.

Give more MP for spells of one school? Like, +1 MP if you already have this base spell. Not intruding, but useful.

Something like it at the least!

Well, let fighers choose between Dex (archer or just a finesse fighter), Str and Con; rogues between Cha (face), Dex and Int; mages between Int, Wis and Cha. That would be good ^^

Also, I really like the idea of characters not just raising their abilities as they level, but also becoming actually smarter, tougher and stronger. Why not give 3 points at each milestone instead of two? It will help with MAD problems but won't disbalance anything so long as you are not allowed to put two points in one attribute at the milestone.

I love it! It's true, I didn't like how rogues had less focus on Charisma.

Taking the abilities of another class is what I mean. Can you take the abilities of your own instead?

No. Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page, since multiclass isn't a term here.

Hm. How about making a list of possible specializations (I'll try to do it later myself, probably) and giving each of them some special bonus or ability. Like, if you are the performer by profession, you get some Speech bonuses, and so on.

I'll give it more thought a little later.

That was my original intention, but I couldn't pull it off. I'll look through your suggestions, thank you!

BTW, as far as I understand, the way Dilettante works now, with it you are actually better at untrained skills than at the trained ones. As you level up it becomes milder, but still at the end if you have +7-8 Int as opposed to +5 from half the level... And at the start you have +0 / +1 from half the level as opposed +4 / +5 from Int.

It's intentional. To give rogues that extra edge when it comes to skills.

And I appreciate your system. A lot. I know I already said that, but it's worth reiterating! I imagine it takes A LOT of time and effort to create something that elaborate...

It has, but folks like you keep me goin

[Liliet]

Oh! I think I see, you think the result of the roll! I meant, before you know if the roll is successful. I totally understand how you came to that conclusion now, I'll clarify.

So you roll, decide if it's too low, then use a reroll, or not (before the GM tell you've succeeded of failed; this of course relies on the GM being half-fair and decent to give you that couple seconds to decide).

...what?

Like, you don't calculate how much you need on the roll to succeed before you actually roll the dice?

I can understand it with certain skill challenges, but I think in most cases the player will know.

Well, that depends on the playstyle, I guess... anyway, if you reword it, it'll be just fine ^^

It should just be one when you receive the maneuver. I'll clarify that too.

Aha. Thanks.

I think everything in Classy d20 either affects an "ally", multiple "allies", one "enemy", or multiple "enemies". I do see your point. I'll work on that too.

^^

For the difficult terrain thing, it will probably come up quite a bit, especially if you're using the collateral damage variant.

Does a dungeon room qualify as the difficult terrain? Does a forest clearing qualify as the difficult terrain?

Using difficult terrain in a fight really depends on the playstyle... all right, many things do >_>

Hmm...I like coverting tracks of the whole party, good idea!

Thanks. This is one thing that will contribute to the teamplay ^^ make it useful to have a wild walker in the party the way it's useful to have someone with knowledge and perception skills/talents.

There's gonna be a fluff section too, to give ideas like using the light cantrip as a halo.

I don't remember the fluff that's already there right now, but it definitely read to me like it was supposed to be a halo. Of course, my battlefield-controlling rogue is going to use it as a signal, distraction or to blind enemies...

They do have ways to compensate. Dilettante gives you a free trained skill that you can alter multiple times per day at higher levels. Opportunist gives you damage and attack comparable to a warrior.

Of course, a rogue is still getting Talents. You're talking like they're just getting a minor skill boost and nothing else. Warriors can use maneuvers all the time, but they are limited by what they have equipped.

The static numbers aren't as important. The talents are more important, it's actually a pivotal aspect of the system. This is the reason why rogue talents also allow rerolls, and why rogues get more essentia than anyone else.

You got me there, I'll look at that.

I'll just trust you on that...

(but I still think that application of skills out-of-combat is a more important skill monkey aspect than using Talents, take, for example, age-old rogues&traps... ok, that one is Int-dependent and will work... perception checks are going to be used all the time, and it makes sense to give it to the rogue, like I had already said)

Whoops, meant in-game.

*goes back and rereads the previous post*

I still don't get what you mean o.O Are you saying that the characters should only ever interact with other sentient creatures via fighting them?

Something like it at the least!

^^

I love it! It's true, I didn't like how rogues had less focus on Charisma.

Yay ^^

I'll admit, I love bards. I don't think that having an actual bard class is necessarily a good idea, but I do pay attention to gameplay possibilities given by high Charisma ^^

No. Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page, since multiclass isn't a term here.

...all right, the real problem was mages' SAD anyway.

That was my original intention, but I couldn't pull it off. I'll look through your suggestions, thank you!

Yay!

I'll gladly elaborate, give more suggestion and so on. This is something I'm really interested in and have a lot of ideas ^^

It's intentional. To give rogues that extra edge when it comes to skills.

Yeah, except right now it makes sense for a rogue to NOT take the most useful skill as trained and just use Dilettante. That... doesn't make sense.

It has, but folks like you keep me goin

^^

I'll keep it on!

[Lappy9001]

Does a dungeon room qualify as the difficult terrain? Does a forest clearing qualify as the difficult terrain?

Using difficult terrain in a fight really depends on the playstyle... all right, many things do >_>

Probably not. Difficult terrain is a specific term, defined in Adventuring and Exploration. And all it really does is potentially slow down your movement. I find it helps in a system where everybody is generally much faster (and no AoO's).

I don't remember the fluff that's already there right now, but it definitely read to me like it was supposed to be a halo. Of course, my battlefield-controlling rogue is going to use it as a signal, distraction or to blind enemies...

All great uses!

I'll just trust you on that...

(but I still think that application of skills out-of-combat is a more important skill monkey aspect than using Talents, take, for example, age-old rogues&traps... ok, that one is Int-dependent and will work... perception checks are going to be used all the time, and it makes sense to give it to the rogue, like I had already said)

I had an epiphany about that at work today. Talents add +2 Skill Points each, so rogues will be rocking a +6 bonus to skills they've invested in (plus the 1/2 level bonus, if trained).

Also, I thought about awarding metamagic for mages when you learn all the spells from a single arcane school. They'll increase the damage, duration, or range of the base spell, or allow you to use it un-augmented for no MP. Gives mages incentive to specialize.

Warrior maneuvers are also going to award specialization through the base maneuvers.

*goes back and rereads the previous post*

I still don't get what you mean o.O Are you saying that the characters should only ever interact with other sentient creatures via fighting them?

I am completely saying the opposite. Either way, it's not really important.

[QUOTE=Liliet;16574898]Yeah, except right now it makes sense for a rogue to NOT take the most useful skill as trained and just use Dilettante. That... doesn't make sense.[QUOTE]I believe the +2 Skill bonus mitigates that.

[Saidoro]

Er, could you please make the third option for mages to make Int primary? Maybe make it weaker than the other two to compensate for synergy with skills...

I do like sorcerers, but "Magic as science" approach is pretty popular and interesting, too.

In fact, if you let the wizards take Int as a primary attribute but without any bonuses from it other than using it for difficulty, it's pretty interestingly fluffed as mages who devoted their life to _studying_ magic as opposed to those with natural talent. Their magic itself is weaker, but they get synergy with Alchemy, Mechanics, Knowledge and, probably counterintuitively, Profession... but then again, humans get bonus to it, might as well put it to good use.

The thing is, you could build that concept just as well with a rogue. There's no reason a wizard has to have levels in the mage class, rogues make fine artificers with the right talents. And even if you do use the mage class, it's entirely possible to just dump either wisdom or charisma in favor of intelligence, the former means you'll have a slightly lower will save and the latter means you'l be using mostly buffs, that's all.

Huh, I guess it actually makes sense that the Dex-based warrior with better Defense from dual wielding do less damage than the Str-based warrior... but wait, they already do. Finesse does not allow to substitute Dex for damage roll, and that's a pretty big drawback.

Dex based warriors also have some big advantages, their initiative is much higher and they have far more mobility, so they can use precision much more consistently, the same mobility advantage means they can use charge pretty much all the time while Heavy armor wearers will often not be able to do so. They act first, they're more versatile, they have better skills, they have access to a few oddball synergies heavy armor wearers can't use. They're a bit less out of the box, but far from crippled. Remember that each attack where they have precision is an extra 14 damage at high levels, contrasting with the strength fighter's +6 or +7. And the turns where you get to attack at all due to being able to reach the target in one turn when the strength fighter can't or due to being low on hit points and acting early than the enemy blaster mage instead of after amount to even more damage than that.

The system is generous, but if you want your character to be reasonably powerful, you'll focus on ONE secondary attribute. It's possible to make a mage focused on Wis and Int, but he'll have no combat ability, period. And therefore will have no use for most talents. Take Mechanics: use of Magitech weapons? Disrupting weapon of an adjacent enemy?

That's not true at all. The mage could just stock up on buff support and healing spells while choosing the wisdom option. Couple that with skills like alchemy and you've got a pretty fearsome support character. Likewise, you could make a rogue who drops dexterity for charisma and spends their time using inspire, intimidate and spells grabbed through bonus or one who drops intelligence for strength and just glass cannons things all day long or a fighter who uses dexterity to fight and barely needs strength at all. The system has skill, maneuvers and spells to support any of those things already and quite a few others besides.

[Knaight]

At this point I suspect playtesting is what we need for some of the balance - the game appears ready to support it. A Skype game with four people could about do it (one GM, one player per class). Based on thread activity, I suspect that Lappy, Liliet, and I might be able to arrange for a game, which leaves only one hole.

[Liliet]

Probably not. Difficult terrain is a specific term, defined in Adventuring and Exploration. And all it really does is potentially slow down your movement. I find it helps in a system where everybody is generally much faster (and no AoO's).

I understand that the term has specific meaning, but actually paying attention to whether where you are fighting qualifies as a difficult terrain requires attention not everyone is willing to pay. Just like the rations - not everyone tracks them.

It's pretty easy to assume that the spot you are fighting on was chosen to be free of rubble and undergrowth for specifically that purpose - fighting on it.

It's more difficult to ignore the fact that you are travelling through the thick forest with barely any paths when, well, you are.

All great uses!

Oh yeah With right use I suspect it's one of the most powerful cantrips out there. Synergises with the Ghost sound for all of these purposes, too.

I had an epiphany about that at work today. Talents add +2 Skill Points each, so rogues will be rocking a +6 bonus to skills they've invested in (plus the 1/2 level bonus, if trained).

Now that's quite a YAY there

Also, I thought about awarding metamagic for mages when you learn all the spells from a single arcane school. They'll increase the damage, duration, or range of the base spell, or allow you to use it un-augmented for no MP. Gives mages incentive to specialize.

Ooh! Now this is a good one!

Warrior maneuvers are also going to award specialization through the base maneuvers.

Warrior maneuvers don't need to specifically award specialization, they already do it by virtue of only being usable/useful with a specific weapon and specific tactics.

I am completely saying the opposite. Either way, it's not really important.

...okay, I'll just trust you on that.

I believe the +2 Skill bonus mitigates that.

...what bonus?

The thing is, you could build that concept just as well with a rogue. There's no reason a wizard has to have levels in the mage class, rogues make fine artificers with the right talents. And even if you do use the mage class, it's entirely possible to just dump either wisdom or charisma in favor of intelligence, the former means you'll have a slightly lower will save and the latter means you'l be using mostly buffs, that's all.

I adressed it at the end of my other post. The mages' problem is not not needing Int, it's not needing any attribute other than the primary one AT ALL.

Dex based warriors also have some big advantages, their initiative is much higher and they have far more mobility, so they can use precision much more consistently, the same mobility advantage means they can use charge pretty much all the time while Heavy armor wearers will often not be able to do so. They act first, they're more versatile, they have better skills, they have access to a few oddball synergies heavy armor wearers can't use. They're a bit less out of the box, but far from crippled. Remember that each attack where they have precision is an extra 14 damage at high levels, contrasting with the strength fighter's +6 or +7. And the turns where you get to attack at all due to being able to reach the target in one turn when the strength fighter can't or due to being low on hit points and acting early than the enemy blaster mage instead of after amount to even more damage than that.

...ok.

That's not true at all. The mage could just stock up on buff support and healing spells while choosing the wisdom option. Couple that with skills like alchemy and you've got a pretty fearsome support character. Likewise, you could make a rogue who drops dexterity for charisma and spends their time using inspire, intimidate and spells grabbed through bonus or one who drops intelligence for strength and just glass cannons things all day long or a fighter who uses dexterity to fight and barely needs strength at all. The system has skill, maneuvers and spells to support any of those things already and quite a few others besides.

Alchemy, yeah, that's a pretty good support one, you are right. Especially giving the Healing Touch talent.

Anyway, see my post that starts with profession suggestion for what's really wrong with mages. I couldn't quite put my finger at it while building my mage and started just complaining about the random things, sorry.

At this point I suspect playtesting is what we need for some of the balance - the game appears ready to support it. A Skype game with four people could about do it (one GM, one player per class). Based on thread activity, I suspect that Lappy, Liliet, and I might be able to arrange for a game, which leaves only one hole.

*Fluttershy's voice* YAY!!!!

The only problem I see with it is that we appear to be from different timezones, at least me and Lappy. But meh, whatever, I don't need to get up early these days.

If we do start the game, 1) I'm not a DM (well, that'll most definitely be Lappy in any case, but I'm sick enough of DMing when I want to play to qualify that separately) and 2) I'm playing my battlefield control rogue I posted earlier.

Also, I can play two characters if needed.

The game still needs rules on alchemy and magic items, though...

[Lappy9001]

At this point I suspect playtesting is what we need for some of the balance - the game appears ready to support it. A Skype game with four people could about do it (one GM, one player per class). Based on thread activity, I suspect that Lappy, Liliet, and I might be able to arrange for a game, which leaves only one hole.

A brilliant idea! Give me just a tiny bit before we organize anything (Speaking of which, Maneuvers are pretty much done, minus one new maneuver).

I understand that the term has specific meaning, but actually paying attention to whether where you are fighting qualifies as a difficult terrain requires attention not everyone is willing to pay. Just like the rations - not everyone tracks them.

It's pretty easy to assume that the spot you are fighting on was chosen to be free of rubble and undergrowth for specifically that purpose - fighting on it.

It's more difficult to ignore the fact that you are travelling through the thick forest with barely any paths when, well, you are.

Typically, you either just outline the squares that are difficult terrain, or use those little triangle icons with the pre-printed dungeon tiles and mats. Track it or not, it's everywhere, even corpses count, and I imagine every game is going to have at least a few of those.

I would assume the opposite. Getting ambushed in a forest, fighting in crumbling ruins, trash in city streets, sheets of ice, large bodies of water are all common occurences in games, unless the fights occur on stone dungeon tiles with no variation. Barring that, difficult terrain is going to come up, likely often.

Ooh! Now this is a good one!

Thanks, that's my project for tonight.

Warrior maneuvers don't need to specifically award specialization, they already do it by virtue of only being usable/useful with a specific weapon and specific tactics.

Maneuvers are up to the final draft stage if you wanna look them over.

...what bonus?

+2 Skill Points per talent instead of just +1. I compared the numbers, it seems to check out.

I adressed it at the end of my other post. The mages' problem is not not needing Int, it's not needing any attribute other than the primary one AT ALL.

So, Wisdom for Magic Points and Will saves, Charisma for Difficulty. Granted, you will still need things like Dex and Con. Spells can do a lot, but it's not like 3.5 where you can flat out get whatever you need from them. Dex is a better choice for AC than Spell Shield....especially since I just noticed a really bad typo that makes it next to worthless. Gonna fix that.

Anyway, see my post that starts with profession suggestion for what's really wrong with mages. I couldn't quite put my finger at it while building my mage and started just complaining about the random things, sorry.

Well, you did raise some fair points, and gave me a few new great ideas!

The only problem I see with it is that we appear to be from different timezones, at least me and Lappy. But meh, whatever, I don't need to get up early these days.

I'm Eastern Standard Time (EST GMT -5:00). Schedule is...unpredictable, but I could arrange something.

If we do start the game, 1) I'm not a DM (well, that'll most definitely be Lappy in any case, but I'm sick enough of DMing when I want to play to qualify that separately) and 2) I'm playing my battlefield control rogue I posted earlier.

Also, I can play two characters if needed.

I certainly don't mind running my own system, although I've never ran a skype/pbp game before.

The game still needs rules on alchemy and magic items, though...

Yes it very much does. Working on it

[Liliet]

A brilliant idea! Give me just a tiny bit before we organize anything (Speaking of which, Maneuvers are pretty much done, minus one new maneuver).

Yay!

Typically, you either just outline the squares that are difficult terrain, or use those little triangle icons with the pre-printed dungeon tiles and mats. Track it or not, it's everywhere, even corpses count, and I imagine every game is going to have at least a few of those.

Or, if you don't have the pre-printed mats/tiles/whatever and use, say, lego pieces to represent the battlefield (like my group did), just ignore this additional complication and pretend all terrain is simple.

I would assume the opposite. Getting ambushed in a forest, fighting in crumbling ruins, trash in city streets, sheets of ice, large bodies of water are all common occurences in games, unless the fights occur on stone dungeon tiles with no variation. Barring that, difficult terrain is going to come up, likely often.

Only if you have attention and interest to track it.

Thanks, that's my project for tonight.

Maneuvers are up to the final draft stage if you wanna look them over.

yay for both!
*went off to check out*

I don't remember what they were like before, except the base maneuvers were not influenced by the number of other maneuvers possessed? That's a sweet addition anyway. Gotta rebuild my lancer warrior ^^

+2 Skill Points per talent instead of just +1. I compared the numbers, it seems to check out.

How exactly are talents taken related to whether the skill is trained? An untrained skill with all three talents taken and Dilletante bonus is still better than a trained skill with all three talents taken.

So, Wisdom for Magic Points and Will saves, Charisma for Difficulty. Granted, you will still need things like Dex and Con. Spells can do a lot, but it's not like 3.5 where you can flat out get whatever you need from them. Dex is a better choice for AC than Spell Shield....especially since I just noticed a really bad typo that makes it next to worthless. Gonna fix that.

Well, you did raise some fair points, and gave me a few new great ideas!

^^
glad to be of help!

I'm Eastern Standard Time (EST GMT -5:00). Schedule is...unpredictable, but I could arrange something.

I'm GMT+2. 7 hours of difference, as I suspected. Right now it's almost 1 a.m. at my place.

Of course, given that we have 1-2 lectures a week these days and all my projects are done on the notebook at my place at my pace, I can stay up pretty much whenever, especially for the pbp game. I missed those.

I certainly don't mind running my own system, although I've never ran a skype/pbp game before.

I have never played a skype game, but I know pbp and it's not hard. In fact, it's very convenient in that you can reference past events at any moment and don't need to rely on your memory. It can also be "paused" and "resumed" at any moment without missing anything so long as everyone does it: everything is written down!

In other words: I wanna I wanna I wanna...

Yes it very much does. Working on it

Heh. My rogue alchemist and I are very much looking forward to it ^^

[Lappy9001]

Or, if you don't have the pre-printed mats/tiles/whatever and use, say, lego pieces to represent the battlefield (like my group did), just ignore this additional complication and pretend all terrain is simple.

Only if you have attention and interest to track it.

Naturally, if that's your playstyle. That doesn't make the uses and applications of difficult terrain here any less of a valid option

yay for both!
*went off to check out*

I don't remember what they were like before, except the base maneuvers were not influenced by the number of other maneuvers possessed? That's a sweet addition anyway. Gotta rebuild my lancer warrior ^^

Pretty similar, except the formatting was bad and it didn't have the necessary tactics that Amechra (Thanks!) suggested. More focus on saves, some of the weaker maneuvers got better (I love everything about Smite right now) and unarmed got shifted into Weapons Mastery. Most of the unarmed maneuvers either weren't great or weren't really unarmed-themed to begin with. Now, you can just take the Pugilist maneuver, double increase the damage dice of your fists, and you're set. And ironically, it now makes it easier to be a monk, 'cause now all you need is one maneuver to get your unarmed combat on.

This means we're still one martial discipline short, and I plan to fill it with Berserker.

How exactly are talents taken related to whether the skill is trained? An untrained skill with all three talents taken and Dilletante bonus is still better than a trained skill with all three talents taken.

Doesn't matter if it's trained or not, you get +2 Skill Points for each talent. I'm totally okay with Dilettante being better, since it's effectively a "freebie" trained skill. I do like how skills let you choose whether to specialize or min/max it. You know, make a guy who's trained skill is Endurance, and taking all the Endurance talents versus taking them with the skill un trained. Either can be equally valid depending on what you're going for.

I'm GMT+2. 7 hours of difference, as I suspected. Right now it's almost 1 a.m. at my place.

Of course, given that we have 1-2 lectures a week these days and all my projects are done on the notebook at my place at my pace, I can stay up pretty much whenever, especially for the pbp game. I missed those.

I have never played a skype game, but I know pbp and it's not hard. In fact, it's very convenient in that you can reference past events at any moment and don't need to rely on your memory. It can also be "paused" and "resumed" at any moment without missing anything so long as everyone does it: everything is written down!

Heh. My rogue alchemist and I are very much looking forward to it ^^

I'll figure it out, I'm sure

[Baniff]

I've been following this thread since it was first posted. I love where the system is going. I'll be playing a one- off with it this week; I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks everyone for all the great work here!

[Lappy9001]

I've been following this thread since it was first posted. I love where the system is going. I'll be playing a one- off with it this week; I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks everyone for all the great work here!

Wonderful! Of course, keep in mind that the system is in a slight flux at the moment. Maneuvers are pretty much finished, but Spells and Talents will be changing soon, and more content will be added to equipment.

And definitely let me know how the game progresses (And feel free to ask any questions that arise)

[Lappy9001]

Treant
Treants are one of the most powerful of nature’s guardians. Wardens of the forest, they slowly patrol the heart of the woodlands, protecting the natural life and guiding lost souls out of the verdant labyrinth. Not disposed towards violence, treants nevertheless guard their homes with unmatched ferocity if pushed, although they prefer diplomacy to blows.

Treant

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This towering creature looks like an enormous tree giant, with bark-covered skin, slend root-like hands, and wide leafy branches sprouting from a gnarled face.

Treant (Plant)
Tough Monster (Huge) 7
HP: ____/ 112
Str: +8* Dex: -2 Wis: +4
Con: +5 Int: +1 Cha: +1

Initiative: -2 Perception: +4
Speed: 3 Stealth: +5*

Defense: 21 Resist: Physical 17
Fort: +10 Ref: +1 Will: +7

Immunity: Poisoned
Weakness: Fire (1½ Damage), Speed Penalty

Attack (Slam): +15 Melee
1d10 + 11 Physical

Special Attack
Push
Difficulty: 21
As a minor action a treant can push the target of a successful slam attack up to 4 squares away from the treant. Targets that succeed a Fortitude save are unaffected.

Sweep
As a minor action after a successful slam attack, a treant may make another melee Attack on an adjacent enemy.

Special Traits
Improved Hit Points
Improved Natural Defense (x2)
Improved Skill (Speech, Stealth)

Skills
+6 Speech*

[Lappy9001]

Dryad
Sylvan spirits that bind with a large plant or tree, dryads are known for guarding their wards with undying devotion. Bonding with their surrounds, dryads have unique abilities that allow them to teleport from tree to tree, and to protect them from forest fires and deadly enemies alike.

Dryad

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This spirit appears as a beautiful woman with skin of polished wood, leaves for hair, and moves with surprising grace.

Dryad (Plant)
Support Monster 4
HP: ____/ 33
Str: -1 Dex: +4 Wis: +3
Con: +0 Int: +2 Cha: +6*

Initiative: +4 Perception: +3
Speed: 5 Stealth: +8*

Defense: 16 Resist: Physical 11
Fort: +2 Ref: +6 Will: +7

Immunity: Poisoned
Weakness: Attribute Penalty (Str), Fire (1½ Damage)

Attack (Slam): +6 Melee
1d4 -1 Physical

Special Attack
Forest Stride (Special Ability)
Daily Use: ___ / 2
A dryad can teleport up to 4 Squares into an unoccupied space adjacent to a tree. After the teleport, the dryad gains the Concealment condition for 3 rounds.

Slyvan Trance (Ranged Affliction)
Daily Use: ___ / 4
Difficulty: 18
As a minor action, a dryad can afflict the target of a slam attack with the Demoralized condition for 3 rounds. Targets that succeed a Will save are unaffected.

Special Qualities
Forest Guardian (Dampening Aura)
A dryad can cause all effects that deal Fire damage within 10 Squares to deal -1 damage per dice.

Special Traits
Improved Hit Points

Skills
+4 Alchemy*, +9 Nature*, +8 Speech*

[Liliet]

Naturally, if that's your playstyle. That doesn't make the uses and applications of difficult terrain here any less of a valid option

No, it does not. What were we talking about again?...

Ah, right. Wild Walker who can now be useful to the whole party, yay!

Pretty similar, except the formatting was bad and it didn't have the necessary tactics that Amechra (Thanks!) suggested. More focus on saves, some of the weaker maneuvers got better (I love everything about Smite right now) and unarmed got shifted into Weapons Mastery. Most of the unarmed maneuvers either weren't great or weren't really unarmed-themed to begin with. Now, you can just take the Pugilist maneuver, double increase the damage dice of your fists, and you're set. And ironically, it now makes it easier to be a monk, 'cause now all you need is one maneuver to get your unarmed combat on.

Ah, now I see. So it means one of the Weapons Mastery maneuvres is gone for good.

I'm worried about Unarmed, though. A warrior monk only has 8 maneuvers to take right now - Spellbreaker line, Tactician line and 2 out of 3 Weapon Mastery maneuvers. And Spellbreaker is only situationally useful...

2 more maneuvers have to be taken with a weapon / armor, doesn't that break flavor a bit?

This means we're still one martial discipline short, and I plan to fill it with Berserker.

I'll be waiting ^^

Doesn't matter if it's trained or not, you get +2 Skill Points for each talent. I'm totally okay with Dilettante being better, since it's effectively a "freebie" trained skill. I do like how skills let you choose whether to specialize or min/max it. You know, make a guy who's trained skill is Endurance, and taking all the Endurance talents versus taking them with the skill un trained. Either can be equally valid depending on what you're going for.

I'll figure it out, I'm sure

I just can't see how it's better for my alchemst rogue to NOT take Alchemy as a trained skill flavor-wise. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe the Dilettante route should offer some bonuses to the trained skills, or just one skill?...


Also, Treants and Dryads are pretty cool! I so like how your system does not paint everyone but the PC races black and red in the bullseye pattern

[Lappy9001]

Ah, now I see. So it means one of the Weapons Mastery maneuvres is gone for good.

I'm worried about Unarmed, though. A warrior monk only has 8 maneuvers to take right now - Spellbreaker line, Tactician line and 2 out of 3 Weapon Mastery maneuvers. And Spellbreaker is only situationally useful...

2 more maneuvers have to be taken with a weapon / armor, doesn't that break flavor a bit?

I figured going Light Armor would work fine ('cause you don't have to be wearing any armor to use it)

I just can't see how it's better for my alchemst rogue to NOT take Alchemy as a trained skill flavor-wise. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe the Dilettante route should offer some bonuses to the trained skills, or just one skill?...

I do see your point, but using dilettante for the skill you use most is kinda sub-optimal because you'd be missing out on the ability to move the bonus around. It was my way of giving rogues more than 4 trained skills without allowing them to be the best at everything all the time (a problem with past drafts)

Also, Treants and Dryads are pretty cool! I so like how your system does not paint everyone but the PC races black and red in the bullseye pattern

Thank you! I have quite a few more done (plus the conversions of Kornaki's monsters), but I need to write fluff for all the others. And it's part of the system's philosophy regarding monsters: every monster should be a unique encounter, not just a meaty sack of XP. Unless the intent is to make a strong, resilient brute of course.

[Liliet]

I figured going Light Armor would work fine ('cause you don't have to be wearing any armor to use it)

...right. I'm slow.

I do see your point, but using dilettante for the skill you use most is kinda sub-optimal because you'd be missing out on the ability to move the bonus around. It was my way of giving rogues more than 4 trained skills without allowing them to be the best at everything all the time (a problem with past drafts)

It might be sub-optimal from the point of view of having many skills, but it is pretty optimal if your whole build is focused around that one thing you do.

How hard is it to make trained skills equal to or slightly better than the Dilettante bonus?

Thank you! I have quite a few more done (plus the conversions of Kornaki's monsters), but I need to write fluff for all the others. And it's part of the system's philosophy regarding monsters: every monster should be a unique encounter, not just a meaty sack of XP. Unless the intent is to make a strong, resilient brute of course.

I won't say anything about monsters because it starts at the very term pissing me off. I'm a person that keeps trying to do a Pacifist Run in World of Warcraft... I'm not the right person to ask about who to kill and how to make them about that.

Just... Good luck. And thanks for not including "default" alignments.

[Lappy9001]

Updates are here, metamagic is now a thing (near the top of the Spells section), and skills are mostly up to date. Fixed some minor typos and knowledge rolls aren't nearly as wonky as before.

I definitely want to add a tertiary primary attribute ability to each class, Dex for Warriors, Intelligence for Mages, and Charisma for Rogues. Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas other than Charisma for rogues (granting an inspire-like ability). I'm also having problems thinking of uses for the Speech spell, as well as how to handle teleportation and summoning.

[Liliet]

Updates are here, metamagic is now a thing (near the top of the Spells section), and skills are mostly up to date. Fixed some minor typos and knowledge rolls aren't nearly as wonky as before.

I definitely want to add a tertiary primary attribute ability to each class, Dex for Warriors, Intelligence for Mages, and Charisma for Rogues. Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas other than Charisma for rogues (granting an inspire-like ability). I'm also having problems thinking of uses for the Speech spell, as well as how to handle teleportation and summoning.

Dex-Warriors use Dex for damage and, mmm, get 1 Athletics talent for free?

And Mages are still SAD. Seriously, a Mage does not need anything but 1 primary attribute for spellcasting. A Wis-based Mage can dump Charisma without any problems and a Cha-based Mage can dump Wis. That's just... nor fair, somehow.

The attribute rolls are still capped at half. It safely guarantees that the majority of characters will have 14 or 15 points total without much variance. Are you sure that's the intended effect?

Speech spell?...


And is there anything about magic items and alchemy? I noticed that the Table of Contents does not link to the Variant Rules anymore...


Anyway, this post was a pretty sweet present for my birthday (which is today), woohoo! Thanks!

[Baniff]

Hopefully tonight I'll post my full thoughts from my experience playing last week, but a quick question first: Can a Mage add Charisma to cantrip damage? Specifically Shadow Weapon

[Lappy9001]

Big Thing Edit: The Skills section is now fully updated to the final draft version

Hopefully tonight I'll post my full thoughts from my experience playing last week, but a quick question first: Can a Mage add Charisma to cantrip damage? Specifically Shadow Weapon

Sorry that the formatting is such a mess at the moment. And to answer your question, no, because the Charisma ability only boosts 'spells' and shadow weapon is a cantrip.

And Mages are still SAD. Seriously, a Mage does not need anything but 1 primary attribute for spellcasting. A Wis-based Mage can dump Charisma without any problems and a Cha-based Mage can dump Wis. That's just... nor fair, somehow.

They still need all the things that other characters need, like Defense, Hit Points, Saves, and Skills which can't come from Wisdom/Charisma alone (and can't be largely replicated by spells like in 3.5). Nobody's utterly dependant on more than two attributes (depending on build) so I'm really not worried about it.

The attribute rolls are still capped at half. It safely guarantees that the majority of characters will have 14 or 15 points total without much variance. Are you sure that's the intended effect?

I haven't touched that yet. The original point was to prevent somebody having max attributes (which is far easier with 6d4 than in 4d6, drop lowest, x 6).

Speech spell?...

Skill. Don't worry, though, I believe I figured it out at work today. Working on updating it now, actually.

And is there anything about magic items and alchemy? I noticed that the Table of Contents does not link to the Variant Rules anymore...

Table of Contents is a mess, but the post is still there. I'm working on that too.

Anyway, this post was a pretty sweet present for my birthday (which is today), woohoo! Thanks!

Oh, wow, happy birthday! Glad I waited to post a potentially party-themed monster

(you'll see in just a sec )

[Lappy9001]

Booze
One of the more bizarre creations born of arcane meddling, a booze (also known as 'beer ooze') is a result of magic being used heavily in the fermentation and brewing process of alcoholic beverages. If left to sit for too long, the slightest hint of magic can give a barrel a semblance of life. While the occurence of a booze is rare, they tend to emerge at remarkably inopportune times, such as tavern brawls, given the high chance of a spell going awry in the melee.

Booze

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This bubbling ooze is topped with a hearty froth, and a clear amber colouring as it slowly sloshes about.

Booze (Plant)
Support Monster (Unliving) 2
HP: ____/ 31
Str: +4 Dex: -1 Wis: +0
Con: +4* Int: +1 Cha: +3

Initiative: +0 Perception: +1*
Speed: 3 Stealth: +0

Defense: 10 Resist: -
Fort: +4 Ref: -1 Will: +2

Immunity: Demoralized
Weakness: Attribute Penalty (Dex), Speed Penalty

Attack (Slam): +5 Melee
1d4 + 5 Physical

Special Attack
Slosh (Curse)
Daily Use: ___ / 3
Difficulty: 15
As a major action, a booze can inflict an enemy within 5 Squares a -2 penalty to Attack and Save rolls for 3 rounds. Targets that succeed a Will save are unaffected. A target may only be under the effect of 1 curse at a time.

Special Qualities
Intoxicating Aura (Condition Aura)
All enemies within 2 Squares of a Booze become Weakened for 3 rounds.

Special Traits
Improved Hit Points

Skills
+7 Endurance*, +1 Nature*, +2 Profession*

[Liliet]

Big Thing Edit: The Skills section is now fully updated to the final draft version

Sorry that the formatting is such a mess at the moment. And to answer your question, no, because the Charisma ability only boosts 'spells' and shadow weapon is a cantrip.

They still need all the things that other characters need, like Defense, Hit Points, Saves, and Skills which can't come from Wisdom/Charisma alone (and can't be largely replicated by spells like in 3.5). Nobody's utterly dependant on more than two attributes (depending on build) so I'm really not worried about it.

I haven't touched that yet. The original point was to prevent somebody having max attributes (which is far easier with 6d4 than in 4d6, drop lowest, x 6).

Skill. Don't worry, though, I believe I figured it out at work today. Working on updating it now, actually.

Table of Contents is a mess, but the post is still there. I'm working on that too.

Oh, wow, happy birthday! Glad I waited to post a potentially party-themed monster

(you'll see in just a sec )

Hahaha, the monster is completely irrelevant 'cause we don't drink much (= we are going to play Minecraft now instead. (I'm partying today, not yesterday, because reasons) I really want to answer, and I will, I swear, later this evening ^^

Woohooo!!!!!

[Baniff]

Random things I've noticed:

The mechanics are very combat-heavy. A few spells, like Blur, have great out of combat utility, which is something I like. As a GM, I let ice spells freeze water to make bridges, fire spells can burn obstacles, etc. You currently have to go outside of RAW to make that happen though.

I'll look over the new skills' update before I comment on that.

Mages are a bit SAD. But so is everyone.

Dex-Rogues are a little silly at low levels. Opportunist/Precision stacking is very potent, and triggering on enemies with lower initiative makes it extremely reliable. Almost too reliable. It makes me weep for the Str- damage warrior. Adding Dex- to damage steps on the warriors toes.

As is common in most systems, Mages have a lot of fun, flashy powers. The MP augmenting system is fun and gives them a choice every round.

Something that's interesting: Wis- Mages can afford to augment their offensive spells more often than Cha-Mages, so their still dealing good damage, or they can save their MP for healing/buffs. That extra versatility makes them a little more powerful in my eyes.

Rogues get A LOT of skills. They can easily be trained in all of them. I think giving Mages 2, Warriors 3, and Rogues 4 would go a long way in diversifying parties' skill selection.

The Tactics Maneuvers should use Intelligence in some way. Right now, it's a pretty sub-par ability score, which is something that always disappointed me in DnD and something I hope you can change.

Keep in mind these are only my opinions and experiences.

Overall, I really enjoyed playing. Making characters/ monsters is quick, but I would definitely recommend upping the damage die on weapons. No one likes rolling d4's. My group wants to make this a regular game in our rotation, so I count that as a success on your end.

[Lappy9001]

Magic is 90% into final draft

The mechanics are very combat-heavy. A few spells, like Blur, have great out of combat utility, which is something I like. As a GM, I let ice spells freeze water to make bridges, fire spells can burn obstacles, etc. You currently have to go outside of RAW to make that happen though.

I'm working on updating the description of arcane schools to reflect that. I did it last night, but my browser crashed and I had to start over. Speaking of spells, they're 90% finished and have far more utility than before.

Dex-Rogues are a little silly at low levels. Opportunist/Precision stacking is very potent, and triggering on enemies with lower initiative makes it extremely reliable. Almost too reliable. It makes me weep for the Str- damage warrior. Adding Dex- to damage steps on the warriors toes.

How about the extra damage dice only works on opponents that haven't acted this round? That should help it out a good bit.

As is common in most systems, Mages have a lot of fun, flashy powers. The MP augmenting system is fun and gives them a choice every round.

Something that's interesting: Wis- Mages can afford to augment their offensive spells more often than Cha-Mages, so their still dealing good damage, or they can save their MP for healing/buffs. That extra versatility makes them a little more powerful in my eyes.

That's going to change. I realized I didn't like Cha-mages to focus only on the damage-dealing spells. What I'm thinking (rough draft):

Intelligence Ability
When casting a spell that deals Cold, Fire, or Shock damage, you can change the damage type as a free action. When you are affected by a spell that deals Cold, Fire, or Shock damage, you can change the damage type as a free action, even if it is not your turn. You can use (Intelligence ability) a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence

Wisdom Ability
When rolling for Magic Points add your Wisdom to the roll instead of +2 (I ran the math and this makes a big difference. However, if I implement it I'll raise the default MP bonus to 1d4+3 which irons things out a bit)

Charisma Ability
You can augment spells as if you were 1 level higher a number of times per day equal to your Charisma.

Rogues get A LOT of skills. They can easily be trained in all of them. I think giving Mages 2, Warriors 3, and Rogues 4 would go a long way in diversifying parties' skill selection.

Works for me.

The Tactics Maneuvers should use Intelligence in some way. Right now, it's a pretty sub-par ability score, which is something that always disappointed me in DnD and something I hope you can change.

I heartily agree, but I'm having difficulty coming up with other ways to use Intelligence.

Overall, I really enjoyed playing. Making characters/ monsters is quick, but I would definitely recommend upping the damage die on weapons. No one likes rolling d4's. My group wants to make this a regular game in our rotation, so I count that as a success on your end.

That's fantastic, I'm glad you and your group enjoyed it

[Legendxp]

SO MUCH TEXT!!! (O_o) I'll be reading up on this but it might take a while.

[Lappy9001]

SO MUCH TEXT!!! (O_o) I'll be reading up on this but it might take a while.

Well I appreciate it! If nothing else, I managed to get the table of contents more updated (and the end of each post links back to it). Please let me know what you think and any suggestions you might have

[Liliet]

I'm sorry for not responding as I promised, the session has started )=

What I want to ask is are you going to do anything with the attributes?

See, the 3d6 attributes were pretty close to the middle all the time because 3 dice were rolled, and that's how probability works. Very low values were exceptional, as were very high. 10 was actually the most probable result, as in, it showed up a lot more than others.

1d4 has equal probability for all values. You get 1 just as often as 2 just as often as 3 just as often as 4. None of these are exceptional or rare in any way. There is no average. You are going to have a lot of high values.

I'd suggest rolling 3d3 and letting the attributes be in the range from 3 to 9. It corresponds to the modifiers range in DnD (from -4 to +4) and has an average in the middle. Of course, that'd require a lot of tweaking numbers elsewhere, so it's nothing more than a suggestion.



And I like the ideas for Int, Wis and Cha mages ^^

[Lappy9001]

What I want to ask is are you going to do anything with the attributes?

See, the 3d6 attributes were pretty close to the middle all the time because 3 dice were rolled, and that's how probability works. Very low values were exceptional, as were very high. 10 was actually the most probable result, as in, it showed up a lot more than others.

1d4 has equal probability for all values. You get 1 just as often as 2 just as often as 3 just as often as 4. None of these are exceptional or rare in any way. There is no average. You are going to have a lot of high values.

I'd suggest rolling 3d3 and letting the attributes be in the range from 3 to 9. It corresponds to the modifiers range in DnD (from -4 to +4) and has an average in the middle. Of course, that'd require a lot of tweaking numbers elsewhere, so it's nothing more than a suggestion.

And I like the ideas for Int, Wis and Cha mages ^^

Yes, they're definitely going to change, it's pretty bad right now. Originally, I did just have 3d6 (technically 4d6 drop lowest), but you just use the modifier from then on.

I do want to make it simple but also balanced. With that goal in mind, 3d6 rolled 6 times seems needlessly complex. But seeing as I don't have any ideas, I'm definitely open to suggestions.

[Baniff]

I don't see anything wrong with 3d6, use only modifiers. It works in the Dragon Age TRPG.

[Liliet]

3d3 or 3d4 and use as modifiers. The second one might be a bit too versatile...

Anyway, so long as 3 dice are rolled, the probability distribution is as it was with 3d6. The idea to use values themselves instead of modifiers is very, very good - at the very least, abilities list looks much better without negatives, and what looks good is actually very important for the game of imagination.

I'm not sure how combat math would work with higher possible modifiers, though, but I'd at least try to just straight-up do it, use high modifiers and see what it looks like.

It would, from the top of the head, make the Dilettante problem worse, of course, but there's a number of ways to fix it. Other than that... if everyone has higher modifiers, I'm not sure balance would be seriously affected.

And to make the heroes special, 4d3 drop the lowest.

(I'd actually try to build a character like that right now, but the dreaded session...)

EDIT: I did try. The numbers are not very versatile and are closer to the middle than 3d6, but the values of 3d6 were then cut in half to use as modifiers anyway, so I say it's about equal.

According to the probability calculator, the average for 3d3 is 6 and the average for 18d3 (the sum of abilities) is 36. It looks reasonable to cut too low rolls at 30 total and the highest at 42 total.