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  1. - Top - End - #481
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    I think you have to convince her to change her programming to be nice but I may be wrong.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Thought: why in the unliving hell should we assume that the Catalyst is telling the truth about the destory option anyway.

    It's not like we are (currently) shown any evidence of the Geth being destroyed, is it (and as stated EDI is shown to survive).

    It may have just been lying like crazy in order to ensure that Shepard doesn't choose the destroy option...

    When I replay the ending whtn the DLC comes out, I'm going to take the Destroy option anyway, as frankly Joker's vapid grin at the end of the Synthesis ending just creeped me the hell out.



    You know what my theory is now?

    I was right. It WAS the Cruible that was behind it all or rather something else behind it, using the Cruible as conduit. A being that could manipulate the minds and programs of the matter-world, but not interact with it directly - a Dark Energy being of terrible power, a Dark Energy God for all intents and purposes, save that it cannot touch the material world, only act through the minds of others.

    The "catalyst" was just a VI, designed to goad Shepard into activating the Crucible - because Shepard might not have come to it wounded and half-indoctrinated and murky-headed after all - saying any old thing and playing on the kid-image the entity had been seeding Shepard's dreams with. The Reapers may or may not have been VIs themselves - a bit of voice acting is not beyond the reach of technology, after all... And the true villain we never saw, because after millions of years, it's just too smart, too experinced to make mistakes. The entity manipulated everyone in the galaxy. The Citidel and the Reapers were just there to initially spread the Mass Relays to as wide a distribution across the galay as possible, and then the later cycles were to manipulate the galaxy into buliding and finally using the Cruible for it's intended purpose. Shepard's choice is ultimately irrelevant, because the entity behind it all's goals were met whatever Shepard chose.

    The Reapers were dupes at best, mindless servitors at worst (and notice how the Reapers seemed much like intelligent villains this time around, and had that one not spoke in it's death, a newcomer might have assumed they were simply mindless drones); Shepard and all the rest, from the TIM to the Geth and the Protheans played right into the Dark Energy God's metaphysical hands. They did exactly what it wanted them to do - at last finalise the construction of the Crucible, and activate it.

    Those goals being the destruction of the Mass Relay network, as was intended, like neat set of precisely placed demolitions charges, bombarding the entire galaxy with dark energy - which we know has adverse effect on stars. And with a release of that magnitude - in but a few short years cause all the stars to detonate or collapse, thus cleansing the galaxy of petty matter-beings, and allowing the Dark Energy God to reign supreme over the dying embers of the uncountable numbers of all matter-based life.



    Because if you're gonna do a crapsack ending, you may as well do it PROPERLY.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-04-13 at 06:09 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #483
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    WOG is that EDI lives. Only tech that has enough direct connection to Reaper tech is destroyed (mass relays, the newly "awakened" Geth, the citadel's Mass relay) is destroyed. Even if you do not see EDI walking out of the ship, she lives.
    The thing is, EDI was just a rogue VI that was gaining awareness when Shep shut her down on Luna. After that Cerberus got their hands on her and started plugging in Reaper code and other nifty stuff. She is just as much reaper tech as the geth are. Unless its some magic ratio of only 4 parts Citadel Tech to 1 part reaper tech and the geth are at 3:2 or some such BS.

    They never thought out the ending and arbitrarily make announcements like "EDI Lives" and everyone "who is plot relevant was in super amazing shelters on the citadel and is A-OK". And their reasoning "Just Cuz". They handwave away their 50 hour FTL limit and ignore the lack of industry on earth and just say "reaper salvage!" everyone goes home no relays is no big deal. I can't take it seriously, what is in the game now and whats being put out now, its all over the place.

    Also
    *insert obligatory insult of Synthesis ending here*
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    This is also notewordy because all of a sudden the heavy duty economy papers, such as Forbes, suddenly became the spokespersons for the fans and not the computer magazines / sites. Both because they were not as heavily invested in the all-corrupting boys club that is the American game market these days (Like IGN, who on one hand gave an extremely high score and defended the ending to the death, and on the other hand had one of their high-profile eployees IN THE GAME), but because of this very reason: Forbes saw that the way EA and Bioware handled the storm was bad for business, and called them on it.
    It is interesting to see how both the media and Bioware/EA are handling it. The official releases I've seen from Bioware merely acknolwedge the issue and then try to spin it as positively as possible, mentioning all the favourable reviews and press. I'm not sure if they're in damage control or outright denial.

    I can't fault review sites from giving ME3 a sterling score, given it's hard to play a game of that length through to the finish before deadline. It's a fascinating situation that I haven't seen it's like before. There's been abominations like Metroid Other M that have horrible writing, but I can't remember a trilogy that's been five star all the way through only to have the very last ten minutes destroy everything. It's really amazing.

    Edit: Is it actually possible to get the "Shepard lives" Destroy ending if you don't play multiplayer? Don't you need something like a 8000 war asset score? (I can't remember what I had)
    Last edited by Trazoi; 2012-04-13 at 06:03 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #485
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Becuase if you're gonna do a crapsack ending, you may as well do it PROPERLY.
    Now there's awesome fanfiction I can get behind. This ranks up there with the Indoctrination Signal emanating from somewhere in universe is the real villain and Reapers are just its enslaved transmitter peons story I've seen somewhere on the net in terms of coolness. Lovecraft would be proud of the eldritchness.


    I've noticed that trying to make up or read fanfic theories like these is a lot more satisfying than playing the games again. Maybe fanfics will become a new virtual pastime for hordes of disgruntled Bioware players, which wouldn't be all that cool because the last thing internet needs is more terrible fanfiction.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    I could create some Harbinger shipping fiction. I'll avoid non-gendered terms for Shepard so you can insert your own player character.

  7. - Top - End - #487
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by cnsvnc View Post
    I've noticed that trying to make up or read fanfic theories like these is a lot more satisfying than playing the games again. Maybe fanfics will become a new virtual pastime for hordes of disgruntled Bioware players, which wouldn't be all that cool because the last thing internet needs is more terrible fanfiction.
    I disagree. If a few gems of fanfiction came out of this fiasco, I call it well worth it. It's not like the Internet lacks space or anything.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    And really, assuming that the Geth live through that ending just because you want them to and the (highly minimalist and much criticized for it) ending animation doesn't show them dying is as much fan fiction as the indoctrination theory. If you go assuming that the options presented don't do what the Catalyst tells you they do then you're left with absolutely nothing to the ending at all.
    I'll repeat myself trying to be more precise on my words.

    A. The catalyst says that ALL synthetics will be destroyed.
    B. EDI, a synthetic, is not destroyed.

    -If we assume A as truth B is impossible, the landing scene is false.
    -If we assume B as truth A is a lie.

    C. Word of God says that B is truth.

    -B is truth then, the destruction of ALL synthetics is false.

    D. No dead Geth are shown

    We cannot conclude that Geth are dead, since the only premise that would lead us to believe that the Geth are dead (point A) is proven false by Word of God.

    We cannot conclude that they are alive either, since no Geth are shown alive.

    Data is insufficient to reach a conclusion in that regard so speculation is left open.

    Assuming that they die because of a false statement is "as much fan fiction as the indoctrination theory."

    Edit: That is the case only in one of several endings.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    You do realize that if you discredit the catalyst, you've removed the only source of context and information regarding the ending, yeah? All because (I suspect) someone was too lazy to consider what happens if you take EDI with you and choose Destroy? I mean, your point C is a bit weak - as I understand it, what Word of God said was that there was a debate on whether to kill EDI, not that they decided against it.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    So I had a longer post written up until my windows update ate it. I'll keep it brief.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    I really can't think of a politer way to phrase "what the hell" and "you people scare me".
    How about you try "let's agree to disagree?"
    Anyway, the galaxy will thank me when they're watching 4 channels at once.
    (I know, I know, you won't be thanking me.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I have no right to wipe out the Geth or risk the Reapers getting loose again when I have more permanent solutions at hand either. I have to pick one of the three though (because the alternative is "let the Reapers win," which is worse than any of them) and of the problems, "some people might not like becoming part robot" falls far lower on my list of concerns than genocide or the Reapers being potentially merely temporarily stopped.


    Individualim is something I value quite highly here too, and normally I'd certainly not do something like this, but given the circumstances I consider it the best choice. Besides, as it's described this is merely a physical change - it's not like brainwashing, which I would consider worse than genocide (I go for destruction rather than rewriting in Legion's mission in 2).
    Yep, this was word-for-word my thought process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derthric View Post
    That's my point. Synthesis was meant to achieve peace. But it won't. All you have done is change one possible aspect of what will shape it. In the end it is meaningless to his goal of creating an order or peace that will last.
    He doesn't care about creating peace between organics. (Or hybrids.) He cares about them creating A.I., which a synthesized galaxy presumably won't need to do.

    Though if we get a bit of the Geth's "knowing each other's minds" to remove the "religious and political differences" cassus belli, then that can only be to the good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    We cannot conclude that Geth are dead, since the only premise that would lead us to believe that the Geth are dead (point A) is proven false by Word of God.
    The problem with all this analysis is that it requires you to metagame, making it invalid. Even if Shepard can somehow view the landing scene from beyond, s/he would have already chosen at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    I'll repeat myself trying to be more precise on my words.

    A. The catalyst says that ALL synthetics will be destroyed.
    B. EDI, a synthetic, is not destroyed.

    -If we assume A as truth B is impossible, the landing scene is false.
    -If we assume B as truth A is a lie.

    C. Word of God says that B is truth.

    -B is truth then, the destruction of ALL synthetics is false.

    D. No dead Geth are shown

    We cannot conclude that Geth are dead, since the only premise that would lead us to believe that the Geth are dead (point A) is proven false by Word of God.

    We cannot conclude that they are alive either, since no Geth are shown alive.

    Data is insufficient to reach a conclusion in that regard so speculation is left open.

    Assuming that they die because of a false statement is "as much fan fiction as the indoctrination theory."

    Edit: That is the case only in one of several endings.
    Frankly, I don't actually care whether you're right or wrong. If you're right, then the catalyst duped a bunch of us and the ending is really crappy. But it was already crappy and we already hated the catalyst, so that doesn't really get us anywhere. If you're wrong, then people who chose destroy did kill the Geth and that really sucks and all the endings just suck. So yeah, I don't think it makes any difference, at least until the DLC comes out.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    See, this is why I was opposed to things going and integrating reaper tech into their brains. It results in reaper-related Genocide.

    Too bad Legion forgot his personality, and disagreed.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    As I said above, even if the Catalyst lied, Shepard won't know that without metagaming. It also has no reason to lie as it holds all the cards; if deception/treachery was its goal, it could simply not tell you about the red ending at all.

    Even if we assume EDI survived, that doesn't guarantee the Geth live, particularly since the Catalyst says they will die point-blank.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    As I said above, even if the Catalyst lied, Shepard won't know that without metagaming. It also has no reason to lie as it holds all the cards; if deception/treachery was its goal, it could simply not tell you about the red ending at all.

    Even if we assume EDI survived, that doesn't guarantee the Geth live, particularly since the Catalyst says they will die point-blank.
    Actually, I've seen some ending scenes where he doesn't mention them at all. And that was supposedly a max-readiness run, which implies the Geth not warring with the Quarian.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    Actually, I've seen some ending scenes where he doesn't mention them at all. And that was supposedly a max-readiness run, which implies the Geth not warring with the Quarian.
    Do you mean readiness, or EMS? They're not the same thing.

    And as long as you have enough EMS to unlock Synthesis, he gives the same speech every time. His speech only changes if you have too little to unlock all the options. (The "worst possible EMS" speech has him practically annoyed that you're in his room.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Yes, max EMS. It's entirely possible the video lacked information on the Quarian-Geth results.
    Last edited by Luzahn; 2012-04-13 at 08:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    Yes, max EMS. It's entirely possible the video lacked information on the Quarian-Geth results.
    Do you have a video?

    Considering that he even mentions the Geth dying under Destroy-Vaporize (1000 EMS or lower, no other endings available) I'm going to conclude the one you saw was missing part of his speech.

    (Or another possibility - he doesn't mention the Geth if you already killed them to save the Quarians.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2012-04-13 at 08:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Do you have a video?

    Considering that he even mentions the Geth dying under Destroy-Vaporize (1000 EMS or lower, no other endings available) I'm going to conclude the one you saw was missing part of his speech.

    (Or another possibility - he doesn't mention the Geth if you already killed them to save the Quarians.)
    I'm not able to find it. Disregard that.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Derthric View Post
    They never thought out the ending and arbitrarily make announcements like "EDI Lives" and everyone "who is plot relevant was in super amazing shelters on the citadel and is A-OK". And their reasoning "Just Cuz". They handwave away their 50 hour FTL limit and ignore the lack of industry on earth and just say "reaper salvage!" everyone goes home no relays is no big deal. I can't take it seriously, what is in the game now and whats being put out now, its all over the place.

    Also
    *insert obligatory insult of Synthesis ending here*
    The point here is that it has mainly to do (again) with poor writing. I have said it before (in one of the predecessors of this thread) that Bioware's writers seemed genuinely puzzled by the assumptions made by fans (tons of star systems wiped out by exploding relays, Tali and Garrus starving to death, everyone on the citadel dies etc). It seems they thought they were much clearer than they actually were.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    The point here is that it has mainly to do (again) with poor writing. I have said it before (in one of the predecessors of this thread) that Bioware's writers seemed genuinely puzzled by the assumptions made by fans (tons of star systems wiped out by exploding relays, Tali and Garrus starving to death, everyone on the citadel dies etc). It seems they thought they were much clearer than they actually were.
    Which begs the question of whether any of them actually watched the ending, or made any kind of logical assumptions based on their own codex entries, or really, for that matter, gave it any kind of thought other than "explodinating the mass relays is teh coolz."

    I'm beginning to think that with the Destroy option they only included the Geth being killed so as not to make it too blindingly obvious a best choice, rather than for any good reason. (Logic ceased to apply from the elevator up, so why should that be any different?)

    All of which causes me to write off Bioware's "word of god" as completely nonsense, since in this case "god" clearly doesn't know what he's talking about (and I trust the catalyst no more than Bioware...)

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    The point here is that it has mainly to do (again) with poor writing. I have said it before (in one of the predecessors of this thread) that Bioware's writers seemed genuinely puzzled by the assumptions made by fans (tons of star systems wiped out by exploding relays, Tali and Garrus starving to death, everyone on the citadel dies etc). It seems they thought they were much clearer than they actually were.
    If rumors are true, Bioware was genuinely surprised, if only because most of the writing staff was locked out of the process to point this out.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    I'm beginning to think that with the Destroy option they only included the Geth being killed so as not to make it too blindingly obvious a best choice, rather than for any good reason. (Logic ceased to apply from the elevator up, so why should that be any different?)
    The Geth's destruction is logical though. Destroy needs to be able to target something specific - if it was just a blast of pure energy it would wipe out the fleets and the entire solar system in addition to the Reapers. (Which it probably does under "Vaporize.") And since it's designed to spread through the entire galaxy (the Crucible could not have counted on all the Reapers being in one system) then it likely would have laid waste to far more than that.

    The logical thing to target would be the Reaper code, because whoever designed the Crucible would believe it to be something only Reapers possess. They could not have dreamed of another race of machines who simultaneously (a) oppose the Reapers and (b) use their code. Before ME3, would you have believed that to be possible?
    Last edited by Psyren; 2012-04-13 at 09:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The Geth's destruction is logical though. Destroy needs to be able to target something specific - if it was just a blast of pure energy it would wipe out the fleets and the entire solar system in addition to the Reapers. (Which it probably does under "Vaporize.") And since it's designed to spread through the entire galaxy (the Crucible could not have counted on all the Reapers being in one system) then it likely would have laid waste to far more than that.

    The logical thing to target would be the Reaper code, because whoever designed the Crucible would believe it to be something only Reapers possess. They could not have dreamed of another race of machines who simultaneously (a) oppose the Reapers and (b) use their code. Before ME3, would you have believed that to be possible?
    The target of Geth + Reapers makes sense. The problem is that the kid mentioned only "synthetics," muddying it somewhat.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The Geth's destruction is logical though. Destroy needs to be able to target something specific - if it was just a blast of pure energy it would wipe out the fleets and the entire solar system in addition to the Reapers. (Which it probably does under "Vaporize.") And since it's designed to spread through the entire galaxy (the Crucible could not have counted on all the Reapers being in one system) then it likely would have laid waste to far more than that.

    The logical thing to target would be the Reaper code, because whoever designed the Crucible would believe it to be something only Reapers possess. They could not have dreamed of another race of machines who simultaneously (a) oppose the Reapers and (b) use their code. Before ME3, would you have believed that to be possible?
    Which should also kill EDI by the same token, since she's partly Reaper-tech herself.

    I think you've probably already given more thought to it there than Bioware did.

    And given that she's consistently lumped in with synthetics throughout the game, I cannot fathom why Bioware wouldn't assume we'd think she would be killed in destroy, given the complete lack of further information.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-04-13 at 09:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    I blame the power of unicorns and fairy dust.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    I blame the power of unicorns and fairy dust.
    But that would have made more sense...

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    But that would have made more sense...
    They saved EDI because they felt like it, and didn't want her to die.

    Or to cover a bug.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Yeah, I can't really explain EDI being spared. Other than possibly "she's far enough removed from Reaper tech to merely be damaged instead of destroyed," similar to implanted Shep. After all, she was sapient before they added the stuff to her, as evidenced by TIM's video. Like Shepard, they added it to speed things up, not to bring her to life in the first place.

    EDI herself confirms she "woke up" before being infused with it. "Gaining awareness while under attack was... confusing."
    Last edited by Psyren; 2012-04-13 at 10:09 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Which should also kill EDI by the same token, since she's partly Reaper-tech herself.

    I think you've probably already given more thought to it there than Bioware did.

    And given that she's consistently lumped in with synthetics throughout the game, I cannot fathom why Bioware wouldn't assume we'd think she would be killed in destroy, given the complete lack of further information.
    I hate to use this as a justification, I really really do. But I'm going to do it anyway.

    EDI might have survived because Joker took the Normandy and went into a mass relay jump ahead of the explosion, thus sparing its crew and the ship itself from the full brunt of the effects (which simultaneously would let EDI survive destroy and makes the actual results of synthesis much less clear since the Normandy crew could be less affected than everything else).

    Ugh, I feel kind of dirty using that scene to justify anything.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    The issue is that it implies anything could just outrun it. Including Reapers.

    Thinking on it, Control would probably be my ideal ending if I had the option to order the Reapers' to self-destruct. Anything less than that is too risky.
    Last edited by Luzahn; 2012-04-13 at 10:37 AM.

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