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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    What bugged me more than anything about Cerberus was it's ships. Troops I can understand, they indoctrinate people into being Shock Troopers, they've got the manufacturing contacts to arm and armor them, ect. I can also understand the secrecy, since just about everybody in Cerberus is indoctrinated to commit suicide on capture they can keep their movements hidden, especially if they have sympathizers inside the alliance military working to thwart investigations.

    What I don't get is their ships. In ME3 it sounds like Cerberus has a navy, they talk about Cerberus Cruisers and fighter squadrons, and taking on the Illusive Man's space station requires Hackett to pull ships (At that point the combined might of just about every power in the galaxy) away from the Crucible. I could understand if they had a few freighters with guns put on them, but it sounds like they have full-scale warships. You could hide soldiers, but a warship takes LOTS of time and resources to build. You'd need to secure a very large facility, engineers, parts, ect. The Normandy SR2 was still a frigate, bigger than the old one, but still tiny by warship standards.

    Plus, Warships take TIME. Indoctrination means that Cerberus can get an Insta-Army. Take a reasonably healthy human, semi-huskify them, and you've got a fanatically devoted foot soldier. If the Huskification process dosn't train them, you send them through super-bootcamp, which because they're now tireless fanatics, they but everything into. And you can train them in parallel, hundreds if not thousands of brainwashed refugees at a time! You can't pressure-cook a warship though. Even if you have the facilities, materials, and an indoctrinated shipwright, you can't get a fleet quickly, but not long after the Reapers hit they've got warships running around.


    I personally justify it by saying that the Cerberus ships are largely Alliance ships full of indoctrinated crew with a new coat of paint.
    Actually, there's a decent explanation for that.

    Cerberus has always ran front companies for money. One of the biggest? Cord-Hislop Aerospace, a leading starship manufacturer.

    It's a books and tiny background detail thing, so missing it isn't exactly a failing on your part, but it's been set up.

    Also, they had Udina and Din Korlack in their pockets. Money isn't an issue.
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  2. - Top - End - #632
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhavaer View Post
    Those are husks, not indoctrinees, though.
    That's my point exactly - what Cerberus is doing is creating sophisticated husks, not just indoctrinating civilians.

    Take a look at the Cerberus soldier on mars when Kaidan/Ashley removes his helmet. See the resemblance?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    The problem is basically cultural. Krogan females can produce a thousand young in a single year, but nothing says they have to. During the Rebellions they had been uplifted from self-inflicted near-extinction where the viability rates the genophage inflicted were the normal survival rates, set to fighting a war as disposable infantry, and then simply given empty worlds. Now, especially if Wrex and Eve are both around, it's perfectly possible for them to manage their own populations.
    That's incredibly optimistic; even Wrex on his own has very problematic leanings. ("You haven't seen how fast we can pop 'em out.") So you've basically got one Krogan - Eve - standing between the rest of the galaxy and an expansionist krogan. At best (under Wrex) they just want more room for their population to explode. At worst (under Wreav), they also want revenge. And they might want the latter anyway if there are too many Krogan for Wrex/Eve to keep in check.

    Their high birthrate wasn't a problem before uplift because Tuchanka was so hazardous; they conquered the planet almost through attrition. On less hostile worlds, there'll be nothing to counter their baser instincts.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2012-04-15 at 03:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Udina wasn't really in their pocket, he was just foolishly trying to out-Magnificent-Bastard the Illusive Man. Which never works out in your favor.
    Last edited by Luzahn; 2012-04-15 at 03:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    I can sort of see their reasoning, though, as someone playing FemShep, I intensely disagree with, because I couldn't see anything. (I'm surprised you didn't all hear me scream when she took her mask of from the back on Rannoch, and even SHEPARD got to see it, but not me!)
    It would have been much better not to show her face at all. Would have been annoying, but less so than a crappily photoshopped image.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    Meh, I've watched most of the Star Treks. Anything looks good after that.

    I really don't mind the humanoid appearance, considering that, thematically, the suit really is the species' appearance, not the face. It's still odd biologically, but not to a massive extent; no worse than making most of the species encountered roughly humanoid in shape.

    Maybe their males look different? The masks are different there.
    Quarians looking very human-like is only a part of the problem. The biggest problem is that Tali's photo is a photoshopped existing picture. Sorry, I just can't find anything that'd justify it.
    Also, I'm replaying ME2 again, and I'm trying to decide if maybe this time I could save the Collector base with my RenegadeShep... but I just can't imagine doing it. It's just so obviously the wrong choice. The fact that Cerberus goes head-first into villain territory in ME3 doesn't help.
    Last edited by Morty; 2012-04-15 at 03:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That's incredibly optimistic; even Wrex on his own has very problematic leanings. ("You haven't seen how fast we can pop 'em out.") So you've basically got one Krogan - Eve - standing between the rest of the galaxy and an expansionist krogan. At best (under Wrex) they just want more room for their population to explode. At worst (under Wreav), they also want revenge. And they might want the latter anyway if there are too many Krogan for Wrex/Eve to keep in check.

    Their high birthrate wasn't a problem before uplift because Tuchanka was so hazardous; they conquered the planet almost through attrition. On less hostile worlds, there'll be nothing to counter their baser instincts.
    Given the lack of relays, this might turn out to be tolerable for quite some time. Since the relays are gone, Krogan expansion speed is limited by whatever FTL they have developed, and they will also use space more effectively; FTL limitations mean they'll colonize more than just systems with relays in them or nearby. I suspect that this will take them some time (on the order of many centuries/few millenia) before they'll necessarily come into conflict with anyone. That should be enough time for them to develop culturally, as they need to.
    If you talked to Eve, you'll know that Krogan culture has stagnated since the genophage, because the females have been marginalized to a significant degree. In fact, she's the only female krogan we EVER talk to ingame. While that doesn't mean she's representative, her descriptions of female krogan imply they're much different from the males we see.
    Also, Wrex is likely to have a rather large part in new children. It's been noted several times that he's a mutant, so that could precipitate some degree of genetic and cultural shift.
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2012-04-15 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luzahn View Post
    Udina wasn't really in their pocket, he was just foolishly trying to out-Magnificent-Bastard the Illusive Man. Which never works out in your favor.
    Eh, Udina's betrayal was just kind of weird. He's never really been on Shepard's side, but he always had his reasons for doing what he did. Every action he took made sense from his perspective. In Three, when the stakes get high enough, he seems like he firmly joins Shepard's side, and is consistent with his earlier character. But the Coup just made no sense and was never properly explained.

    Before then, Udina had always been a conservative Diplomat, which put him at odds with Shepard, since even Paragon Shepard was all about taking Action. They would just give a big speech beforehand. When you talk to him in his office, he's frustrated at the Council, but he understands their motivations. Then, suddenly, we're told that he's decided to team up with Cerberus and stage a coup?

    Let's start with the fact that the Coup makes absolutely no sense from Udina's perspective. The Reapers want the Coup because it disrupts the Galaxy's ability to wage war. Cerberus wants the Coup because 1: They're reaper-puppets and 2: the more they disrupt the "Destroy The Reapers" plan, the more time they have to work on their "Control the Reapers" delusion.

    But for Udina, it makes NO sense. As far as I can tell, his plan was to take over the Citadel, then use that to force the galaxy to help Earth. That's the equivalent of killing the UN, setting up camp in the building, and then claiming you now rule the world. Never mind that the Councilors are not the leaders of their respective races, they are Representatives (Ones with lots of pull, but Representatives none the less), and that the plan was pretty clearly to kill them.

    As a plot point it served as an opportunity to introduce the Magic Space Ninja Kai Leng, as well as to shake the Citadel out of it's complacency, but it makes no sense. They use Indoctrination as their magic band-aid, which I guess works, but it still bothers me. In other cases of High-functioning Indoctrination, the subject was usually convinced that something was a good idea: Cerebus was convinced they could control the Reapers, Saren was convinced he could get the Reapers to spare the Turians by helping them, but both of those are more likely than "If I kill the council, everybody will do what I say!"


    Concerning Tali's face. There is a certain type of Open Mystery that will always be better as a Mystery, no matter what is revealed. Tali's face was one of those things. The fact that we don't know what she looks like under that mask helps make her character more interesting and intriguing, but it's not really an important question. No matter what they revealed, the only response could be "Oh, I guess that's what she looks like".

    Using a Photoshopped Image was just a bad idea though. It makes sense though, from a design standpoint. You don't want to go through the concept-art of designing a new race, making it in the game engine, all for the purpose of a single still image. And I don't think it would have been a good idea to take it past a single still, the Quarians are "Those guys/gals in suits", it's a good look, there is no real reason to change it.


    That said, with the exception of the Asari and the Drell, I actually really like the aliens in ME3. They all seem very Alien, rather than just being Space Humans. I mean you've got the Hanar and the Elcor, which don't show up much, but are not even humanoid. In terms of races that actually show up, you've got the Turians, with their carapace-plates and forehead ridges, the hulking Krogan, with forehead armor and wide faces, the Salarians, ect. The result was always something that was Human in all the ways that were important. Even the Batarians, with their weird bumps and ridges, came off a clearly inhuman.
    The Asari were just Blue Space Babes, and the Drell were invented to serve a similar purpose ( I read somewhere that they felt they should offer femsheps a "Hot" alien Love Interest). You may notice that they're the only races out there (besides Photoshop Tali) with a Human-style nose.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That's incredibly optimistic; even Wrex on his own has very problematic leanings. ("You haven't seen how fast we can pop 'em out.") So you've basically got one Krogan - Eve - standing between the rest of the galaxy and an expansionist krogan. At best (under Wrex) they just want more room for their population to explode. At worst (under Wreav), they also want revenge. And they might want the latter anyway if there are too many Krogan for Wrex/Eve to keep in check.

    Their high birthrate wasn't a problem before uplift because Tuchanka was so hazardous; they conquered the planet almost through attrition. On less hostile worlds, there'll be nothing to counter their baser instincts.
    Eve implied that she would rally the other krogan females. Her stance seemed to be that since the female krogans had mostly stood off to the side in the past, they would take a more active role in the future, helping to curb the aggressive nature of krogan males.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    On Udina's Coup (Not going to make a quote wall...), wasn't it mentioned he was indoctrinated?

    It may have been a throwaway speculation line though, so if anyone else remembers?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    The Krogan 'explosion' may not be a huge issue, as only those on Tuchunka would be cured immediately, and who knows how its remaining biosphere is going to survive without the shroud protecting it.


    Udina confused me as well - especially as the Shadow Broker's files showed Anderson meeting with Cerberus. I took it as he was flipped with a mix of the council's inaction and even some jealousy towards Shepard. Udina's meant to be humanity's rep, but the council seems to put more weight in someone who (in his eyes) is nothing more than a jumped up jarhead.
    I could see Cerberus getting in his ear about needing more respect etc, and combine that with inaction over Earth and a bit of blackmail could reasonably lead to him being forced to support Cerberus when they make their move.


    Speaking of incredulity, I thought the 150 man Cerberus figure was way too low, personally. I mean half the organisation would have died during Overlord! Also how do they get their giant bases built with that few people?
    Maybe it's like the mafia where you've got 150 people who are properly 'in Cerberus', and loads of hangers on who get to use the branding, but aren't
    'true' memebers.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    On less hostile worlds, there'll be nothing to counter their baser instincts.
    Except, you know, their foresight and reason. That's kind of my point. Yes, there's a considerable risk that the krogan will simply repeat the Rebellions. No, "these savages will just keep breeding out of control, better sterilize them" (even partially) is not a sensible reaction - it's in their own interests to keep their population growth at a sustainable level, and they're perfectly capable of recognizing those interests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Also, Wrex is likely to have a rather large part in new children. It's been noted several times that he's a mutant, so that could precipitate some degree of genetic and cultural shift.


    I remember Eve calls him a mutant - jokingly, it seemed to me. As in, "he's not like most other krogan". Is there any other line you're thinking of? The idea that Wrex is more reasonable and farsighted than average for his people because of a genetic abnormality and the way forward for the krogan is for him to breed as intensively as he can to spread it around is... to be honest, were they actually to suggest that in the franchise I'd be disgusted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Vale View Post
    On Udina's Coup (Not going to make a quote wall...), wasn't it mentioned he was indoctrinated?
    There's a Codex update after the coup. On the one hand it presents Udina's motives as fairly well established by investigation: he wanted to accomplish a bloodless coup where he ended up with the power to force the Council fleets to liberate Earth. There's a suggestion he may have been indoctrinated but this is noted in the entry as probably being reading too much in to things - that simple desperation is sufficient to explain his actions.
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2012-04-15 at 06:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    There's a Codex update after the coup. On the one hand it presents Udina's motives as fairly well established by investigation: he wanted to accomplish a bloodless coup where he ended up with the power to force the Council fleets to liberate Earth. There's a suggestion he may have been indoctrinated but this is noted in the entry as probably being reading too much in to things - that simple desperation is sufficient to explain his actions.
    "Asari, turian, salarian fleets, this is Grand Leader Udina. Humanity has murdered your councilors and assumed total control of the Council. We order you to send your fleets to Earth."
    That's not mere desperation; that's pants-on-head bananas.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    I remember Eve calls him a mutant - jokingly, it seemed to me. As in, "he's not like most other krogan". Is there any other line you're thinking of? The idea that Wrex is more reasonable and farsighted than average for his people because of a genetic abnormality and the way forward for the krogan is for him to breed as intensively as he can to spread it around is... to be honest, were they actually to suggest that in the franchise I'd be disgusted.
    Eh, perhaps I'm wrong. I remember Wreav and other Krogan talking about how Wrex was "different", and I think Wrex mentions it himself in ME1. I know it's probably his perspective, but between his uniqueness and Eve's comment... I may be reading too much into it. At the very least, he should have a cultural impact as a parent.

    Even though Wrex is on Earth at the end, Krogan DMZ is REALLY CLOSE to the Local Cluster; shouldn't take him more than a few years to get back.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trazoi View Post
    "Asari, turian, salarian fleets, this is Grand Leader Udina. Humanity has murdered your councilors and assumed total control of the Council. We order you to send your fleets to Earth."
    That's not mere desperation; that's pants-on-head bananas.
    "Asari, turian, salarian fleets, this is Councilor Udina. Cerberus has murdered your councilors before being driven off of the Citadel. As sole surviving Councilor, I order you to send your fleets to Earth.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    [QUOTE=Zorg;13075881
    Maybe it's like the mafia where you've got 150 people who are properly 'in Cerberus', and loads of hangers on who get to use the branding, but aren't
    'true' memebers.[/QUOTE]

    If it isn't this, than its a case of them pulling a number from the behinds that ended up being to low.
    My question then is, what exactly are all those troopers if there not properly Cerberus? It makes them sound like hired thugs, which given the Illusive mans view of 'resources', may well be accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    There's a Codex update after the coup. On the one hand it presents Udina's motives as fairly well established by investigation: he wanted to accomplish a bloodless coup where he ended up with the power to force the Council fleets to liberate Earth. There's a suggestion he may have been indoctrinated but this is noted in the entry as probably being reading too much in to things - that simple desperation is sufficient to explain his actions.
    I don't read the codex/journel updates purely because I know I would then loose a month of my life in the warm glow of plasm, so I know what I heard was a line, weather from one of Shep's squad or the Asari counciller laterr, I don't know. However, iif he was trying to accomplish a bloodless coup, he failed on both ends. Really an all out assult instead of assasins? And still, how is he supposed to get away with bloodless? (Choking them to death and simerler forms do not count)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trazoi View Post
    "Asari, turian, salarian fleets, this is Grand Leader Udina. Humanity has murdered your councilors and assumed total control of the Council. We order you to send your fleets to Earth."
    That's not mere desperation; that's pants-on-head bananas.
    If he was stupid enough to say it that way. However I think it would be more like:

    "Council Fleets. A terrorist coup has killed the other councilers and attempted to kill me. As the last remaining counciler I am assuming control of council assests until proper replacements can be found when this crisis is dealt with."
    (Probally said more formally/speech like/diplomatically)
    Shortly followed by sending the fleets to help Earth.
    Last edited by Erik Vale; 2012-04-15 at 06:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Vale View Post
    If he was stupid enough to say it that way. However I think it would be more like:

    "Council Fleets. A terrorist coup has killed the other councilers and attempted to kill me. As the last remaining counciler I am assuming control of council assests until proper replacements can be found when this crisis is dealt with."
    (Probally said more formally/speech like/diplomatically)
    Shortly followed by sending the fleets to help Earth.
    What I'm arguing is it doesn't matter how Udina says it, that is the way that it would go down. Especially if he gets help from the human supremecy group Cerberus.

    The game makes it clear there's a separation of powers between the politicians and the military and that the biggest reservations everyone has to helping humanity is that they don't want to leave their home systems undefended. The other races aren't robots blindly obeying the will of the Council. If Cerberus' plan to take the Citadel succeeded, all that will achieve is the Council being dissolved and every race looking out for their own. It would probably also break the deal between the turians that Shepard had only just brokered, so on the surface it's an action that works against helping Earth as a whole.

    That's why when I got to that point that there was something going on behind the scenes to coerce, convince or control Udina, because there's no way he would go with that plan willingly. Udina wasn't an idiot. I was expecting some kind of investigation to be important to the plot, but it was all handwaved away.

    Edit: And it also turned out that TIM wanted the Crucible to be built so he could control the Reapers, so I've got no idea what Cerberus was doing torching the Citadel in the first place. It's a bizarre plot point all round.
    Editx2: Unless the point was to scare people to going to Sanctuary I guess. Except I'm not sure the time frame holds up for that - Sanctuary must have completed their mission by then. It doesn't explain why they didn't release their prototype Husks on the Citadel instead of using obvious Cerberus troops.
    Last edited by Trazoi; 2012-04-15 at 07:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Vale View Post

    I don't read the codex/journel updates purely because I know I would then loose a month of my life in the warm glow of plasm, so I know what I heard was a line, weather from one of Shep's squad or the Asari counciller laterr, I don't know. However, iif he was trying to accomplish a bloodless coup, he failed on both ends. Really an all out assult instead of assasins? And still, how is he supposed to get away with bloodless? (Choking them to death and simerler forms do not count)
    Well, the whole coup you see in action was a last minute desperation play for an already bad plan. It only came up because Valern (or his replacement) found out about Plan A and was going to make it public, including tipping off everyone's favorite mass murdering cyborg drunk.

    Kinda wrecked any attempt at subtly. Only thing left was getting full emergency power and killing EVERYONE who could stop him before he gets caught.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Keep in mind though, that even if Udina couldn't order the fleets of the Citadel races to earth, he could order the Citadel fleet and the Spectres to aid earth which is what I presume his goal was, to save more lives/give Shepard time to get more help. It's still a very desperate course of action and more then a little foolhardy, but I have to imagine Udina realized that. And once he was committed to that course of action...well...there was no turning back.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Speaking of incredulity, I thought the 150 man Cerberus figure was way too low, personally. I mean half the organisation would have died during Overlord! Also how do they get their giant bases built with that few people?
    Maybe it's like the mafia where you've got 150 people who are properly 'in Cerberus', and loads of hangers on who get to use the branding, but aren't
    'true' memebers.
    150 agents and operators, not 150 total men. The Normandy cell includes an entire crew plus however many people were involved in the construction phase and possibly all of the personnel and resources of the Lazarus project if you want to include them with the Normandy cell(Shepard is the captain after all, so it makes sense) and yet Miranda and Jacob are the only two people involved who hold the rank of operative. If that's proportional it would explain a lot.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Keep in mind though, that even if Udina couldn't order the fleets of the Citadel races to earth, he could order the Citadel fleet and the Spectres to aid earth which is what I presume his goal was, to save more lives/give Shepard time to get more help. It's still a very desperate course of action and more then a little foolhardy, but I have to imagine Udina realized that. And once he was committed to that course of action...well...there was no turning back.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Haven't read most of the thread, but I'm going to leave these here. First one is a review of the game as a whole, second one is ten reasons why the ending sucks. Warning: some swearing, since whether the guy censors it or not is really inconsistent, leaning on the side of "not". However, he's one of the most impartial reviewers there is, except for Skyrim. He loves Skyrim way too much.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Speaking of Quarians, I still don't know what the heck is up with Tali's photo... photoshopping a picture of Miss England seems just bizzarely lazy to me.
    I don't care about the stock photo aspect, but the fact that they did a poor job with the photoshopping pissed me off. On the other hand, she is all kinds of lovely.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Eh, perhaps I'm wrong. I remember Wreav and other Krogan talking about how Wrex was "different", and I think Wrex mentions it himself in ME1. I know it's probably his perspective, but between his uniqueness and Eve's comment... I may be reading too much into it. At the very least, he should have a cultural impact as a parent.

    Even though Wrex is on Earth at the end, Krogan DMZ is REALLY CLOSE to the Local Cluster; shouldn't take him more than a few years to get back.
    I am a pessimistic guy. I saw that ending and saw a centuries long dark age being hoisted upon the galaxy. But the Krogan thing, until Wrex is cut off from his people, was something that I had no doubt about it being a positive outcome. These first few generation will remember what happened last time they let their base instincts get out of control. And by then hopefully some cultural change will be instituted.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    Well, the whole coup you see in action was a last minute desperation play for an already bad plan. It only came up because Valern (or his replacement) found out about Plan A and was going to make it public, including tipping off everyone's favorite mass murdering cyborg drunk.

    Kinda wrecked any attempt at subtly. Only thing left was getting full emergency power and killing EVERYONE who could stop him before he gets caught.
    The coup was fun though right! This whole debate is a sign about how breaking the suspension of disbelief has a way of ripping holes into the rest of the plot.

    But I was thinking about that as the mission was going, what were they going to do with the citadel. The thing is a station, its big, its in theory indestructible, supposedly impenetrable except for inside jobs, but it does not have anything truly magical inside. Oh wait, it does. My thinking is that Cerberus knew what the catalyst was at the time and wanted the station for that. It tricked/indoctrinated Udina into doing something stupid. Which is not that bad, Udina is an idiot. However he is not a risk taker, that's why it sticks out.

    It was one of my favorite missions though, aside from Ninja Boy and the seemingly tall elevator shaft on a very not tall Presidium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    150 agents and operators, not 150 total men. The Normandy cell includes an entire crew plus however many people were involved in the construction phase and possibly all of the personnel and resources of the Lazarus project if you want to include them with the Normandy cell(Shepard is the captain after all, so it makes sense) and yet Miranda and Jacob are the only two people involved who hold the rank of operative. If that's proportional it would explain a lot.
    This is how I took it too, much in the same way the Shadow Broker has Agents, but not everyone working for the Broker is an agent. Or better yet, in ME1 there is only 1 spectre on the Normandy however the squad and crew are doing a lot of leg work in the Council's name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I don't care about the stock photo aspect, but the fact that they did a poor job with the photoshopping pissed me off. On the other hand, she is all kinds of lovely.
    Oh no doubt, quite lovely. But with freakishly photoshopped hands! That's the part that gets me the most. Those hands just look foolish and not something that would be all that great gripping a Claymore.
    Last edited by Derthric; 2012-04-16 at 04:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Except, you know, their foresight and reason. That's kind of my point. Yes, there's a considerable risk that the krogan will simply repeat the Rebellions. No, "these savages will just keep breeding out of control, better sterilize them" (even partially) is not a sensible reaction - it's in their own interests to keep their population growth at a sustainable level, and they're perfectly capable of recognizing those interests.
    You're talking about a species for whom "foresight and reason" is classified as a mutation.

    But one more thing for us to disagree on, I guess.
    In any event, I wouldn't be all that sorry the relays blew up assuming a Wreav leadership.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're talking about a species for whom "foresight and reason" is classified as a mutation.

    But one more thing for us to disagree on, I guess.
    In any event, I wouldn't be all that sorry the relays blew up assuming a Wreav leadership.
    You seriously need to talk to Eve. Female Krogan are considerably more insightful and reasonable than typical males. With the genophage cured, they have plans.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    You seriously need to talk to Eve. Female Krogan are considerably more insightful and reasonable than typical males. With the genophage cured, they have plans.
    I have spoken with her. But if their women are so effective at holding the men's baser urges in check, why did the Rebellions happen at all? Or before that, the nuclear holocaust that turned Tuchanka into the wasteland that it is today? Presumably they had women around before the Genophage; why then were things allowed to degenerate that far?

    If they couldn't stop the men then, what makes you so sure they can do it now?
    Last edited by Psyren; 2012-04-16 at 07:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I have spoken with her. But if their women are so effective at holding the men's baser urges in check, why did the Rebellions happen at all? Or before that, the nuclear holocaust that turned Tuchanka into the wasteland that it is today? Presumably they had women around before the Genophage; why then were things allowed to degenerate that far?

    If they couldn't stop the men then, what makes you so sure they can do it now?
    Because of the fragmentation of the species. As far as I understand it, it went like this:

    In olden times, the huge birthrate was needed due to being eaten a lot.

    Then came weapons, but it wasn't until modern-ish (my guess, late 19th century) guns were invented that "death by gunshot" surpassed "eaten by predator" on Tushanka. This means they were building a civlization with things like streets, buildings, trains etc and still were eaten more often than not!.

    Then they came to mid 20th century technology, and invented the nuclear bomb. From there it went downhill.
    Now please note that the Salarians didn't uplift a stone- or bronze age people. They didn't find the krogans until AFTER the krogans, by themselves had already had invented, and used, nuclear weapons.

    Anyway, the Blood Rage gene was only carried by a small group until after the nuclear wars started. Basically those that lacked it didn't survive the nuclear winter, and those who did thrived and multiplied.

    Also, please note that according to the Urdnot shaman, the city where the keystone is was not abandoned until at the very end of the krogan rebellions. This means that most of the highrises and other ruins you see there were built after, or in between nuclear war(s).

    Basically it all went to hell because of the Salarians. Which is something that Mordin tells you. As well as Wrex. The clans became too small, and couldn't shake their blood rage genes enough to do something other than continuing fighting eachother, or as mercenaries. It wouldn't help if the female clans had another opinion, because before Wrex, the female clans were tied to their male clans and didn't communicate either.
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2012-04-16 at 08:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    It's been 4000 years since the Krogan had a nuclear war. They haven't had one since.
    It's been 1500 years since the end of the Krogan rebellions.

    1500 years is not a trivial length of time. It's incredibly easy to look back on human history and find some rather impressive atrocities in that time span. They're probably comparable, given our lower level of technological advancement.

    The existence and emergence of Wrex and Eve as forward-looking Krogan leaders shows that Krogan culture has changed. The Krogan are capable of having leaders not just based on fear and intimidation, but on respecting their ability to make decisions. Listen to the members of Clan Urdnot in ME2. They tell you Wrex is weird, but makes good decisions, and has vision, and THAT is why they follow him.

    Perhaps with Wrex and Eve dead, Wreav leading the Krogan as a "traditional" leader would have a bad outcome. Of course, there's a persuade option for Mordin to put off curing the genophage under those circumstances.

    Oh, also
    But without the harsh conditions of Tuchanka to keep their numbers in check, the krogan population swelled to unprecedented numbers. Overcrowded and running out of resources, the krogan spread out to forcibly claim other worlds—worlds already inhabited by races loyal to the Citadel
    Who controls Krogan population growth?

    Huh, haven't looked at the Blood Rage codex entry for a while.
    Last edited by Arbitrarity; 2012-04-16 at 08:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Who controls Krogan population growth?
    Well, normally all the big predators on Tuchanka. Get rid of those, give the Krogan proper medical technology, and you've got an exploding population.
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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Well, normally all the big predators on Tuchanka. Get rid of those, give the Krogan proper medical technology, and you've got an exploding population.
    Normally it's the predators.
    For 1500 years it's been the genophage.
    With strong female clans... it's not the males.

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    Default Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Huh, haven't looked at the Blood Rage codex entry for a while.
    Hmmm. That was interesting....Certainly explains alot about krogan culture. Imagine if humanity was composed of 100% steroid ragers.

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