Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

[Derthric]

Quarian ships, Xen's fleet in particular, are floating R&D labs (think the Alarei.) Even if no other ships in the army have the necessary facilities (which I doubt), theirs do. And the Geth would likely be able to help as well, working in total vacuum if necessary.

You make assumptions like this and then claim I'm ascribing motives to you Where on earth are you getting "one order" from? Isn't that assuming the worst case scenario just to support the doomsday theory? The details of Control are not specified anywhere. Under blue and green, we see them leave the planet, not the galaxy.

Touche. However we have so little info about the way control works and with the way the Catalyst says "you will lose all you have" I took that to mean that Shepard wont actually exist as a controlling force but rather get a chance to make a change at the point of shep's death. Once again it could be or could not be. The hamfisted way they just push the ending on you leads to this confusion. But you nailed me.

Yeah, but they didn't harvest the worlds one at a time either.
Without knowing how long it took them to bleed one planet dry, further speculation on Earth's condition is pointless.

And Anderson's Resistance + all the civilians still alive were eating somehow.

Because they were only there a few days, and fighting a resistance force to boot?

You're assuming all its agriculture stopped.
Again, defaulting to the worst-case scenario without evidence.


There is using language, and there is splitting hairs. This isn't a RAW discussion - this is deciphering a tweet. I see no reason to agree with your interpretation.

As was stated above, her statement could easily be limited to Garrus and Tali, the dextro squadmates being asked about.

In the end it still comes down to the lack of info and how we each chose to determine in. I could go on about how Xen might not even be in Sol, or are her research ships part of the Heavy or Patrol fleets or back at Rannoch as part of the Civilian Fleet.* But its all semantics as you said. Until they fix how the Catalyst is presented and how that whole encounter goes the suspension of disbelief wont be enough to patch up anything. I don't think its fair for them to figure out the new political structure population distribution of the Argos Rho Cluster while Earth rebuilds but these are the things that come up when suspension of disbelief is shattered.

*and yes I realize I just went on about it.

[GloatingSwine]

You're assuming all its agriculture stopped.
Again, defaulting to the worst-case scenario without evidence.

Did you miss the fires the size of entire countries visible from space?

There is going to be no agriculture on Earth for a very long time.

[Anarion]

Did you miss the fires the size of entire countries visible from space?

There is going to be no agriculture on Earth for a very long time.

What makes you think those continents have any agriculture? Everyone here has been saying how reapers only hit industrial areas and there are large swaths of Earth that were not on fire. Not to mention that areas cleared out by fire might be great for replanting and restarting agriculture if they can salvage enough to get some tech running again. Fire isn't salt, after all.

Also, the shots of the planet are an area where I don't take the writers literally (you can, of course, but it's the stuff I find least trustworthy) mostly because the space battle and ship scenes in general never match the codex entries and they're pretty much on record as saying that it would be really boring if spaceships were portrayed the way they're actually supposed to work.

[Psyren]

In the end it still comes down to the lack of info and how we each chose to determine in. I could go on about how Xen might not even be in Sol, or are her research ships part of the Heavy or Patrol fleets or back at Rannoch as part of the Civilian Fleet.*

Xen actually has her own "fleet" - Special Projects, which consists entirely of research vessels. But the Alarei wasn't one of hers - it belonged to Tali's father, another admiral, which suggests that she does not have a monopoly on ships capable of advanced research. Anyway, the point is that facilities on ships are an easy possibility if they're needed.

Until they fix how the Catalyst is presented and how that whole encounter goes the suspension of disbelief wont be enough to patch up anything.

We'll see what the DLC does then; for me, only a little more clarification is needed around the choices, plus some meaty epilogues for the squad (including the ME2 guys) to be satisfied.

Did you miss the fires the size of entire countries visible from space?

Was every country in the world on fire? Do you have a detailed map showing this?

Again I say - Anderson's civilians were eating somehow, and the armies brought their own provisions. No doomsday.

[TheLaughingMan]

The easiest way I can reply to this is:

?????????????????????????????????????

(Translation: I don't understand how the blood all the dead people the Reaper's are responsible for are on my hands?)

Not the Reapers, the Relay explosions.

Its more about the lives lost through the destruction of the relays than at the direct hands of the reapers. Its hard to feel triumphant or heroic when you just set the galaxy back. The previous two games didn't really push this feeling, Arrival did, but at the end of 1 and 2 you see Shepard Triumphant.

The concept of the cold calculus of war and the sacrifices needed is fine when handled well. The way the final conflict is presented is not handled well and results in what feels like hollow and arbitrary sacrifices.

And on another note, the fact that (if memory serves) no one tells you about the Mass Relays going kaboom before you shoot the pipe/etc. It's not only a hollow sacrifice, but one that came straight out of left field.

[Psyren]

Not the Reapers, the Relay explosions.

Even if the Relay explosions result in deaths (whether directly, or from isolated systems unable to get needed relief in time), that's still less casualties than the Reapers would have caused if not stopped.

And on another note, the fact that (if memory serves) no one tells you about the Mass Relays going kaboom before you shoot the pipe/etc. It's not only a hollow sacrifice, but one that came straight out of left field.

Uh, what? The Catalyst specifically tells you releasing the Crucible's energy will blow up the relays.

[TheLaughingMan]

Even if the Relay explosions result in deaths (whether directly, or from isolated systems unable to get needed relief in time), that's still less casualties than the Reapers would have caused if not stopped.

Argh, I guess it's all this "bounce back" talk that's getting to me. People are going to perish either way, unfortunately, but just because the galaxy can recover from the Relay explosions doesn't mean that that loss should be disregarded. A million isn't a statistic.

Uh, what? The Catalyst specifically tells you releasing the Crucible's energy will blow up the relays.

Fair enough. Chalk that one up to poor memory.

[Anarion]

Argh, I guess it's all this "bounce back" talk that's getting to me. People are going to perish either way, unfortunately, but just because the galaxy can recover from the Relay explosions doesn't mean that that loss should be disregarded. A million isn't a statistic.

They will be properly honored and remembered for their sacrifice. I hope you did the same for all those geth platforms, cerberus soldiers, and mercenaries that you shot.

Edit: In retrospect I didn't intend to be that mean (though I'm leaving the crossed out quote to show how I felt). Shephard has killed a lot of people, including all the Batarians lost when the alpha relay exploded. Nobody is saying that all the people who died from the reapers or the mass relays should be disregarded. We're more arguing about how the galaxy should recover and the exact scale of harm. I happen to think that relatively few people died after the explosions (relatively being a key word there, billions may have died, but that's relatively few). Others think the scale of devastation was much greater, but the ending doesn't really say enough to confirm either way.

[chiasaur11]

They will be properly honored and remembered for their sacrifice. I hope you did the same for all those geth platforms, cerberus soldiers, and mercenaries that you shot.

They will be remembered with honor in the coming empire.

[Trazoi]

That right there is the difference between us - I went into ME3 expecting Shepard to self-sacrifice, or only to live if I sacrificed something just as big (Renegade.) Thus I got exactly what I expected.

I went into ME3 with the only spoiler being that there was a huge uproar about the ending, so I also expected Shepard to die at the end - just disappointingly. I also got what I expected.

I don't mind player characters dying at the end if the entire game is built up to that (Planescape:Torment has already been mentioned as a fine example). But Mass Effect has never been that kind of story. Heck, the whole of ME2 is about assembling a team and making them loyal enough to go on a suicide mission and if you're badass enough bring the whole team back alive.

IMO they botched the whole ending from the moment you have to charge at Harbinger. Everything from that point on is sending a message to the player that they are weak, vulnerable and not in control; first Shepard is fried and has to painfully limp the rest of the game, then TIM mind controls Shepard (or something, wasn't sure what was going on fully there), then this Starkid stand-in for the designer pops out of nowhere and forces Shepard to make a bizarre lethal choice. Apart from feeling false, it's a crescendo of scenes all about robbing the player of agency and it's a terrible way to end a game that revolves around player choice.

I also knew the Citadel would be fine during that cinematic - only the Presidium blew up. Weekes' confirmation of this was no surprise.

If a short ending video shows the Citadel exploding and breaking up, I'm going to jump to the obvious conclusion.

But I'm not going to argue the "what happens next" more than a few snarky comments, because at this point the entire game universe is broken. The ending piles so many unanswered questions at the end, what point is there in fan speculation about whether the aftermath is okay?

Forget what happens to the shards of the Citadel in Earth orbit after the game - I want to know how the heck it could be towed to Sol in the first place. Where did that come from?

Re: Indoctination Theory...

HOWEVER! Attempting that much of a mindscrew - you're not choosing what you think you're choosing - is a bit much. It could have a massively negative impact on a player's experience of the game, for the chance for the game to turn around and say 'Ha ha fooled you!'.

This. A lot of my ire for the ending is the obviousness of the designers forcing an ending instead of properly integrating it in a way that respects the player. The Indoctrination Theory is them admitting they're playing a huge trick on us, and that's so seriously uncool it will make everything worse. Having Bioware say "well aren't you dumb" to their player base is public relations suicide.

Plus I don't think the theory makes a lot of sense.

[Derthric]

Argh, I guess it's all this "bounce back" talk that's getting to me. People are going to perish either way, unfortunately, but just because the galaxy can recover from the Relay explosions doesn't mean that that loss should be disregarded. A million isn't a statistic.



Fair enough. Chalk that one up to poor memory.

I made a similar claim about my first shep run. But I was grousing to my brother at the time about how much I loathed the Catalyst and probably missed his one line of dialogue. First impressions and all that.

Xen actually has her own "fleet" - Special Projects, which consists entirely of research vessels. But the Alarei wasn't one of hers - it belonged to Tali's father, another admiral, which suggests that she does not have a monopoly on ships capable of advanced research. Anyway, the point is that facilities on ships are an easy possibility if they're needed.



We'll see what the DLC does then; for me, only a little more clarification is needed around the choices, plus some meaty epilogues for the squad (including the ME2 guys) to be satisfied.



Was every country in the world on fire? Do you have a detailed map showing this?

closest I found was this pic.

Also looking for the clip where Allers talks about the reapers burning through the Central Asian Wilderness and Sub-Saharan Africa. But all I can find is her hackneyed romance.

Again I say - Anderson's civilians were eating somehow, and the armies brought their own provisions. No doomsday.

I think we are arguing our interpretations on what, we can all agree, is too little info. We can argue fleet stores and how much they had and if planting in September(assuming 3 months since R-Day) will mean the North American breadbasket will have a good yield.* But it wont matter. The way its written whatever our headcanons are is what happened. I think they intended it that way. But we turned out to be fire to wily, harebrained, and far more detail oriented than they thought we were.

*And yes I know im making the arguments anyway.

[Psyren]

closest I found was this pic.

Thank you.

I see small streaks of orange with a whole lot of not-burning landmass between.

Also looking for the clip where Allers talks about the reapers burning through the Central Asian Wilderness and Sub-Saharan Africa. But all I can find is her hackneyed romance.

Still plenty of viable farmland aside from those two areas, especially for a civilization capable of terraforming and GM crops.

[TheLaughingMan]

They will be properly honored and remembered for their sacrifice. I hope you did the same for all those geth platforms, cerberus soldiers, and mercenaries that you shot.

There's a pretty good difference between "putting down rogue psychopaths (or likewise) for what is believed to be the greater good*" and "sacrificing (mostly innocent!) lives you didn't know you were sacrificing," but I digress. No hard feelings, comrade.

*I say "believed to be" because y'know, Renegade.

[Luzahn]

Hm...

Presidium Groundskeeper, ME2: (Sarcastically) "Everything would be so much simpler if we all had the same DNA. But no, the universe loves diversity."


He knew.

[Corvus]

Was every country in the world on fire? Do you have a detailed map showing this?

Again I say - Anderson's civilians were eating somehow, and the armies brought their own provisions. No doomsday.

The following were promotional art, but it shows what they were implying.

North America on fire 1

North America on fire 2

Africa on fire.

[Psyren]

Promotional materials are sensationalistic and, more importantly, not canon. For instance, merely by using femshep I invalidate the second picture.

The point of igniting the country in those first two images was a typically Roland Emmerich-style appeal to emotion. "Hey, that inferno is shaped like the USA! I LIVE in the USA! I'm emotionally invested in this product now without even listening to a word of dialogue! Those bastards!"

Nothing actually in the game, even during the final battle, conveys that level of devastation.

[Anarion]

Promotional materials are sensationalistic and, more importantly, not canon. For instance, merely by using femshep I invalidate the second picture.

The point of igniting the country in those first two images was a typically Roland Emmerich-style appeal to emotion. "Hey, that inferno is shaped like the USA! I LIVE in the USA! I'm emotionally invested in this product now without even listening to a word of dialogue! Those bastards!"

Nothing actually in the game, even during the final battle, conveys that level of devastation.

Plus, to invoke TVtropes, it's a classic moment of scif-fi writers having no sense of scale. Showing the regular earth atmosphere with serene clouds over a calm ocean wouldn't make sense with a fire of that magnitude. It would have worldwide consequences, assuming that such a thing were even sustainable for more than a few moments before the fire started going out in some places and concentrating in others.

I'd chalk this one down with the same visual problems as the control ending showing you all the mass relays blowing up visually even though it says that they weren't all destroyed in that version.

[Derthric]

Promotional materials are sensationalistic and, more importantly, not canon. For instance, merely by using femshep I invalidate the second picture.

The point of igniting the country in those first two images was a typically Roland Emmerich-style appeal to emotion. "Hey, that inferno is shaped like the USA! I LIVE in the USA! I'm emotionally invested in this product now without even listening to a word of dialogue! Those bastards!"

Nothing actually in the game, even during the final battle, conveys that level of devastation.

It gets crazier when they have localized ads. I was on Hulu about a month ago and got an ad exhorting me to take back Providence. Then it zooms out to the wide shot of the US. What I want to find is a picture of the citadel in orbit and it looks like half of England is burning from Newcastle to north Hampton.

But in the end, it all just adds to the "bwhaaa that makes no sense pile" Hell the amount of debris dropping on earth from the Fourth Fleet's remains would be enough to trigger tunguska level events.

Plus in those pics it sort of looks like they took an earth by night picture and changed it from incandescent yellow to burninator red.

[Zorg]

Well another reason Earth would be screwed is all those shots fired by the Sword fleet at the reapers... that missed entirely and are now heading towards Earth.

Remember how the codex specifically states that ships don't fight near planets as a missed shot of a main gun hitting a planet is like an A-bomb going off?

Oops.


Oh, and "[DLC] won't be after [ME3]. ... It'd be kinda boring looking at a wasteland - that'd be the DLC if we did it after [ME3]" - Mac Walters.

[Avilan the Grey]

Its more about the lives lost through the destruction of the relays than at the direct hands of the reapers. Its hard to feel triumphant or heroic when you just set the galaxy back. The previous two games didn't really push this feeling, Arrival did, but at the end of 1 and 2 you see Shepard Triumphant.

The concept of the cold calculus of war and the sacrifices needed is fine when handled well. The way the final conflict is presented is not handled well and results in what feels like hollow and arbitrary sacrifices.

I don't agree. At all. I don't like the ending because it is badly written, lacks closure and the god child is there. But the idea that the victory is hollow and pointless because a ton of people suffer is not something I agree with.

[VanBuren]

Argh, I guess it's all this "bounce back" talk that's getting to me. People are going to perish either way, unfortunately, but just because the galaxy can recover from the Relay explosions doesn't mean that that loss should be disregarded. A million isn't a statistic.



Fair enough. Chalk that one up to poor memory.

True, but at some point you have to admit that those people were going to die no matter what you did, unless perhaps you chose options equally dubious (control the Reapers/Do SynthesisHybrids need food?)

Shepard can only save the people that Shepard can save. Is the blood on your hands because you couldn't save everyone?

[Luzahn]

True, but at some point you have to admit that those people were going to die no matter what you did, unless perhaps you chose options equally dubious (control the Reapers/Do SynthesisHybrids need food?)

Shepard can only save the people that Shepard can save. Is the blood on your hands because you couldn't save everyone?

That depends. Do Geth have blood?

[TheLaughingMan]

True, but at some point you have to admit that those people were going to die no matter what you did, unless perhaps you chose options equally dubious (control the Reapers/Do SynthesisHybrids need food?)

Shepard can only save the people that Shepard can save. Is the blood on your hands because you couldn't save everyone?

I guess it's just hard to go and leave the galaxy in shambles, you know? Shepard either leaves the cycle to continue at a cost and thus accomplish little, completes the Reapers' job for them (in a sense) and leave the galaxy to struggle with new alien anatomy amongst other issues, or becomes the Reapers and who knows what might happen. Shepard shapes the galaxy's future, but all three ways s/he can are so terrible in their own ways that I'm not sure if the galaxy has much of a bright future at all.

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh, and "[DLC] won't be after [ME3]. ... It'd be kinda boring looking at a wasteland - that'd be the DLC if we did it after [ME3]" - Mac Walters.

Only thing to note is that interview does appear to be pre-release, so it's possible the massive backlash may slightly have changed their opinion. (Also, someone else is now lead writer or something as I understood from a link a while back, so that too may or may not have had an effect.)

[Xondoure]

Well another reason Earth would be screwed is all those shots fired by the Sword fleet at the reapers... that missed entirely and are now heading towards Earth.

Remember how the codex specifically states that ships don't fight near planets as a missed shot of a main gun hitting a planet is like an A-bomb going off?

Oops.


Oh, and "[DLC] won't be after [ME3]. ... It'd be kinda boring looking at a wasteland - that'd be the DLC if we did it after [ME3]" - Mac Walters.

That one is simple. "You do not 'eyeball' it." They don't miss. If they can't get a confirmed hit they do not fire.

[Psyren]

Well another reason Earth would be screwed is all those shots fired by the Sword fleet at the reapers... that missed entirely and are now heading towards Earth.

"could be."

That depends. Do Geth have blood?

Hurr hurr

I guess it's just hard to go and leave the galaxy in shambles, you know? Shepard either leaves the cycle to continue at a cost and thus accomplish little, completes the Reapers' job for them (in a sense) and leave the galaxy to struggle with new alien anatomy amongst other issues, or becomes the Reapers and who knows what might happen. Shepard shapes the galaxy's future, but all three ways s/he can are so terrible in their own ways that I'm not sure if the galaxy has much of a bright future at all.

How is Synthesis "completing the Reapers' job for them?" And EDI/Joker didn't seem to be "struggling" at all to me.

[Aotrs Commander]

How is Synthesis "completing the Reapers' job for them?" And EDI/Joker didn't seem to be "struggling" at all to me.

...Unless...the Catalyst wanted you to use Synthesis so that, as part synthetics, everyone in the galaxy was now easy to control (ala the Geth, or EDI's original lock-outs)...

Yeah, I still think the Catalyst - or whatever is behind the Catalyst - had a more cunning plan that the one it stated to Shepard...

(Unless Bioware shows me direct evidence otherwise, I ave decreed that EDI's survival is evidence it was lying through it's holographic teeth about the Geth being wiped out, because it - or it's master - wanted you to choose the other options.

It's either that or indoctrination theory, as I am flat-out uncanonifying the ending as anything pseudo-astobiological whatnot artistic-y...

And guess what Biopware? If you don't clarify the ending very well, you can't stop me! Muahahahaha!)

[Luzahn]

If it needs to be explained to be understood, it isn't art.

Or it isn't good art, at the very least.

[Derthric]

I don't agree. At all. I don't like the ending because it is badly written, lacks closure and the god child is there. But the idea that the victory is hollow and pointless because a ton of people suffer is not something I agree with.

Its not because we leave the galaxy as a crapsack world but rather because the death of Shepard comes not on Shep's terms but the Catalyst's/writers, and is framed by the Catalyst's/writers views. I say the ending feels arbitrary because they are trying to use the cold calculus of war to make it seem deep. That's why it is hollow, not the events themselves but how they are presented and the mindset they exist in. Heroic sacrifices and hard choices are great, they work well in epic stories. What we have at the end is a death because they decreed it must be, and a forced choice, very different things than heroic sacrifice and a hard choice. I hope this explains my point better.

I guess it's just hard to go and leave the galaxy in shambles, you know? Shepard either leaves the cycle to continue at a cost and thus accomplish little, completes the Reapers' job for them (in a sense) and leave the galaxy to struggle with new alien anatomy amongst other issues, or becomes the Reapers and who knows what might happen. Shepard shapes the galaxy's future, but all three ways s/he can are so terrible in their own ways that I'm not sure if the galaxy has much of a bright future at all.

This comes back to my statement about at the end of the first two games you see Shepard triumphant. They took pains in this game to show the cost and to play up the losses, even forcing those brat-filled dreams on you. And in the end they show more destruction, the citadel explosion and the relays. The only celebration we get comes from those two groundpounders in London and only on Control and Destroy at high EMS. So after lots and lots of death and destruction, reading those pads in London about people looking for their kids or parents, we get the Catalyst and its craptastic philosophical shoehorning and then death, apparently more death, and your crew stranded. And that won't even touch the fact that I went into the Citadel thinking I had killed Ash(that Shep's LI) and Liara. Wooo I, the player, feel victorious .........*borat voice* Not!

Thoughts on player/pc connection, choice, and sacrifice.

I think this comes down to something many people have brought up about the more limited convo system and other things like the PTSD dreams. At times you are playing as Bioware's Shepard not yours. I have said that ME was the closest IMO that any cRPG has come to mimicking the player/PC relationship of Pen and Paper games. People talk about "My Shepard" but they never say things like "My Master Chief" "My Link" "My Solid Snake". its much the same with PnP games the player has ownership of the PC, the DM may run the games and the publisher set the rules and own the actual licenses but at the end of the day the Player/PC is the core of it all. I really think Bioware took a step back from what they were trying to do, the ambitious idea of players having so much control of the story, and tired to reassert creative control. Not out of anything malicious but you can tell they bit off more than they could chew with it. So we went from having a very active interaction with the setting and our individual stories to a more scripted and passive one. And any DM will tell you that stripping a player of control is a sure fire way to raise their ire. Its another reason why Shepard's death does not work, we go from Shepard being an extension of ourselves to a more passive participant like in a film or book. They try and mask this with a forced choice and the weird part of giving us control at the end only to chose how we die, not if we should die. That's the point of the heroic sacrifice, the person chooses to do it to make achievable what is needed to win. But since they break that Shepard/Player link its no longer our choice. And then they couple that with basically the Catalyst saying that the only good choice is Synthesis, it really cuts away at it being a powerful moment of choice and sacrifice. Fallout 3 was a game with a controversial ending. But that was because it failed to account for the 8ft tall rad-resistant better solution that many players had. Not because of the final choice, you could be selfish and let another die to complete the work or do it yourself. That would work, and hell it worked in DA:O. You knew someone had to die at the end of that, but were given two ways to shape it. Take Morrigan's deal, or send the one other companion who could complete the mission to do it. Sacrifice was needed there, so do you make a deal with the devil, sacrifice a companion/allow someone to rectify a wrong*, or sacrifice yourself. That's a good hard choice, that gives players agency to shape the outcome. And that's what feels lacking in this ending, which is part of a series in which we have had unparalleled agency.

*DA:O spoiler

Spoiler

Show

If you Have Loghain instead of Alistar.

How is Synthesis "completing the Reapers' job for them?" And EDI/Joker didn't seem to be "struggling" at all to me.

That's just because they can do the freaky stuff now without breaking Joker's bones.

[TheLaughingMan]

How is Synthesis "completing the Reapers' job for them?"

Reapers' Plan: Make freakish hybrids with organic life.

Catalyst's Plan: Make freakish hybrids with organic life.

It just seems pretty off, y'know?

And as far as EDI/Joker go, if EDI can survive Destroy then she is clearly an exception to ending-horribleness-syndrome, and the same goes for Synthesis.

Joker/EDI /= the entire galaxy.