Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

[Psyren]

Calemyr: Sorry you don't like the MP. I'll gun down my next Banshee extra-hard in your honor

And anyway, aren't we leaping to conclusions? Does anyone have a definitive source for why that sequence was cut? Gaider pointed out that exact same problem with the DA franchise.

[Calemyr]

Calemyr: Sorry you don't like the MP. I'll gun down my next Banshee extra-hard in your honor

Thank you, the bionic blue biotics deserve it, with their ridiculous one-hit full-kill attack.

I don't hate it, however. I find it extremely frustrating (packs hate me - I really don't want to play a Turian Soldier, but the game absolutely believes I do) and a massive amount of work and hassle to attain a chance to see what other useless crap (Turian Soldier, assault rifles, shotguns, and related mods) I get while anything I'd be interested in (pistols, sniper rifles, smgs, their respective mods, anything salarian or quarian or krogan) evades me at every turn. All of which only serves to (or would if I ever got anything useful) keep me playing Multiplayer or allow me to keep more of the fleet strength I supposedly earned.

I don't hate it, but I find it to be an unnecessary addition that should have been a bonus rather than a core element.

As for leaping to conclusions, this is actually my favorite explanation of it all. It makes Bioware into exceedingly ambitious people who got trapped between their own promises and the consequences of those promises. It suggests to me that they didn't realize what a space hog the MP element would be, and honestly didn't think it would cost the main game anything until after it was far too late to scrap it. Maybe a DLC ending was already their solution to the scenario - a supplement for disc space rather than developer effort. Bioware has always been full of overambitious dreamers, people who shoot for the stars but deliver the moon. I frankly hope it's true. I'm still not happy about it, but I can accept this explanation.

[Derthric]

Thank you, the bionic blue biotics deserve it, with their ridiculous one-hit full-kill attack.

I don't hate it, however. I find it extremely frustrating (packs hate me - I really don't want to play a Turian Soldier, but the game absolutely believes I do) and a massive amount of work and hassle to attain a chance to see what other useless crap (Turian Soldier, assault rifles, shotguns, and related mods) I get while anything I'd be interested in (pistols, sniper rifles, smgs, their respective mods, anything salarian or quarian or krogan) evades me at every turn.

I don't hate it, but I find it to be an unnecessary addition that should have been a bonus rather than a core element.

As for leaping to conclusions, this is actually my favorite explanation of it all. It makes Bioware into exceedingly ambitious people who got trapped between their own promises and the consequences of those promises. It suggests to me that they didn't realize what a space hog the MP element would be, and honestly didn't think it would cost the main game anything until after it was far too late to scrap it. Maybe a DLC ending was already their solution to the scenario - a supplement for disc space rather than developer effort. Bioware has always been full of overambitious dreamers, people who shoot for the stars but deliver the moon. I frankly hope it's true. I'm still not happy about it, but I can accept this explanation.

That convo with Ash would have been nice to have. I am assuming there is corresponding stuff for Kaiden. But even in a playthrough with Ash as the LI she has a distrubingly low amount of dialogue. Heck everyone's is quite limited and that's a negative for me but not a gamebreaker.

The thing that gets me with Multiplayer was its perfectly set up to market as a DLC with a much higher price tag. Charge 60 for the game, with a non-rushed ending and non-reduced dialogue. Then whack us 20 for the ability to double our assets score(having been adapted to fit a new scale sans readiness) and create more assets through multiplayer. Seems like a missed money grab to me.

And on Anderson's cut lines at the end. I am ok with it. It teases a happy ending for Shep with him saying that Shep will be a great parent. At that point not teasing little blue children is a good thing especially with what follows.

[Psyren]

As for leaping to conclusions, this is actually my favorite explanation of it all.

I can see why. "That mean old multiplayer, keeping SP content off my disc!" *shakes fist at EA.*

It's just an us-vs.-them mentality that creates artificial separation between the "real roleplayers" who'd rather have no MP and the folks that enjoy it. That doesn't help the fanbase at all. Without some kind of dev statement that says "We would have put X on the disc but for the multiplayer" then this is all blind speculation and hogwash.

[Calemyr]

I can see why. "That mean old multiplayer, keeping SP content off my disc!" *shakes fist at EA.*

It's just an us-vs.-them mentality that creates artificial separation between the "real roleplayers" who'd rather have no MP and the folks that enjoy it. That doesn't help the fanbase at all. Without some kind of dev statement that says "We would have put X on the disc but for the multiplayer" then this is all blind speculation and hogwash.

Er... no... it's more of a "Grr... useless multiplayer... well, at least they had a good reason for it all..." thing.

I like the explanation because it suggests that Bioware didn't just short the ending because they ran out of time or because it was "art". Multiplayer was not a bad idea, and if they only realized how much space it would take after they were committed to it, well... I can respect hardware limitations more than quality control failures.

The only problem I may have with multiplayer is if the multiplayer came at a cost to the single player campaign. It wasn't meant to - a different team was assigned to it, as I understood it, so it wasn't distracting the SP team from their work. Dropping single player content to make room for it isn't cool in my book. I, personally, would have dropped MP if forced to decide between it and doing a proper job of SP, and include it on a second disc or DLC. MP has never been part of the series and is only really tacked on as a "fun" bonus and marketing ploy. But by then I imagine the two had interwoven their resources so much that dividing the two parts would have made the Gordian knot look like a slipknot.

I bristle at the suggestion that yet another pre-release promise was broken and never copped to, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that it's a perfectly understandable circumstance that led to a perfectly understandable (if unfortunate, in my mind) decision.

[Derthric]

I can see why. "That mean old multiplayer, keeping SP content off my disc!" *shakes fist at EA.*

It's just an us-vs.-them mentality that creates artificial separation between the "real roleplayers" who'd rather have no MP and the folks that enjoy it. That doesn't help the fanbase at all. Without some kind of dev statement that says "We would have put X on the disc but for the multiplayer" then this is all blind speculation and hogwash.

Its normal. Some people, when hearing that something they wanted was cut for space, instinctively blame the content they like the least. Not enough space for the old crews to get fuller dialogue, then why have Vega take up a slot? Not enough time to actually model a face for Tali, but plenty of time for face scanning Chobot as Allers?

The only thing I truly feel that detracts from this game is the ending. However there are little blemishes and we know they were pressed for time and resources. So knowing its all a final sum game you can't not say any element cost somewhere else in the game something.

Also I like the Multiplayer too, except how it influences readiness. Having to play to get to 5000 to get the Shep lives option is not cool. Its also why I think they thought Synthesis was the best ending. Because they say you can get the best ending without MP, so the 5000 can't be the best according to them.*

But this whole discussion is part of why I say the story breaks with the ending. The loss of suspension of disbelief brings out all these little flaws as showing just how much they messed up. Instead of being part of the give and take of development, its taken as one more sign they sacrificed what made the series the one we loved. Cut content is nothing new, the final set for Bring Down the Sky was originally meant to be part of Therum where you first get Liara but was cut for time. But how we frame it is just as important. Without suspension of disbelief we are unwilling to commit to the setting and smooth out the rough edges and fill in the holes ourselves.

*I am now compulsively driven to bash Synthesis in one form or another in every post.

[Luzahn]

There are some funny moments though. If you take EDI with you on missions and need to ask her something, sometimes Shepard will address the robot and sometimes he will radio the ship, almost as if Shepard himself (or herself) is not quite used to the idea.

Legion has some funny things to say about the body.

Hmm. My dislike of the new body caused me to take her on only a couple of the missions. I guess I'll need to bring her along more next time.

[Psyren]

Er... no... it's more of a "Grr... useless multiplayer... well, at least they had a good reason for it all..." thing.

But it still demonizes the content you don't like without evidence. And people who don't know better can read such posts and believe you (and others who share your view) have an inside source that X was cut for multiplayer when the reality is that no such evidence exists. (At least, to the public eye.

Its normal.

Maybe, but that doesn't make it right.

Also I like the Multiplayer too, except how it influences readiness. Having to play to get to 5000 to get the Shep lives option is not cool. Its also why I think they thought Synthesis was the best ending. Because they say you can get the best ending without MP, so the 5000 can't be the best according to them.*

Well, for one you don't strictly have to (the iOS app gives readiness too), but I agree with you that all endings should be accessible through SP alone, even if that takes a lot longer to do.

But as far as their statement, it got taken down from the General forums, so it's possible they aren't endorsing that view any more. Make of that what you will.

[Beowulf DW]

This was a (don't hit me) artistic decision. All throughout the game you can argue down just about anything, sure - but never the Reapers. Sovereign didn't listen, Harbinger didn't listen, and... Ranny(?) didn't listen. Why should they listen now?

You're right, the Reapers couldn't be reasoned with. All the more reason that the ending should have had the first interrupt that was both Paragon and Renegade: shoot the Star Kid.

[Derthric]

But it still demonizes the content you don't like without evidence. And people who don't know better can read such posts and believe you (and others who share your view) have an inside source that X was cut for multiplayer when the reality is that no such evidence exists. (At least, to the public eye.

The reason behind so much of the distrust of multiplayer is that we know they weren't given an unlimited budget or time. Therefore those people could have been used elsewhere. Now the thing is how much space is taken up on the disks when more conversations could have been there. Its the appearance of diversion of resources that people are upset at.

Maybe, but that doesn't make it right.

True, but its a logical path was my point.

Well, for one you don't strictly have to (the iOS app gives readiness too), but I agree with you that all endings should be accessible through SP alone, even if that takes a lot longer to do.

Don't get me started on peripherals influencing the game. But thats just another incoherent rant. That would be pointless since we agree on the underlined part. In fact longer to do is A-OK with me, give me more game? Yes please.

But as far as their statement, it got taken down from the General forums, so it's possible they aren't endorsing that view any more. Make of that what you will.

Ho HO! That is intriguing.

[Joran]

Awesome multiplayer? Really? That's good to hear.

How do you unlock it? All I've got is a clumsy "Horde mode" minigame that forces me to endure an hour of mindless gunplay (assuming the rest of the team is good enough to pull through, but not leet enough to kick anyone without a triple digit N7 score) for the slimmest hope that maybe this time I'll get something I'd want to use rather than yet another upgrade to the Turian Soldier.

For me, the biggest benefit of multiplayer is seeing how the other classes play, without making a completely new Shepard.

Now, I can play any of classes. ME3 combat has gotten to the point where it's good enough to stand alone. Ideally, we'd see more enemies introduced like mercs from ME2.

P.S. That's not to say that the CCG style equipment is anything other than exploitative, harmful, and antithetical to good gaming design.

[Psyren]

The reason behind so much of the distrust of multiplayer is that we know they weren't given an unlimited budget or time. Therefore those people could have been used elsewhere.

They actually couldn't - they had a totally different studio do the MP. If they weren't working on that, they wouldn't have been working on ME at all.

Don't get me started on peripherals influencing the game. But thats just another incoherent rant. That would be pointless since we agree on the underlined part. In fact longer to do is A-OK with me, give me more game? Yes please.

If by "more game" you mean more planet scanning and Benny Hill reaper chases... ugh. Give me MP any day

[Calemyr]

But it still demonizes the content you don't like without evidence. And people who don't know better can read such posts and believe you (and others who share your view) have an inside source that X was cut for multiplayer when the reality is that no such evidence exists. (At least, to the public eye.

I really suck at getting my point across, don't I?
I like the explanation not because it demonizes multiplayer, but because it's a perfectly legitimate decision.

It is a decision I may not personally agree with, a decision I feel they should admit to making if they did so, but a decision I can respect. No "art" nonsense, no quality sacrificed for deadlines, just a simple question: "where can we cut to make the best game we can under these unfortunate circumstances". The cold calculus of space utilization rather than the lofty pretension of "art". I can respect that.

I would point out that I have never said it was true, I've only said that a previously stated explanation makes sense to me and is the most pleasant explanation in my mind. I am not angry about this decision (if it even was made in the first place). Can I make myself more clear? Not.

If by "more game" you mean more planet scanning and Benny Hill reaper chases... ugh. Give me MP any day

Well said, and amusingly worded. I agree MP adds more than exploration missions. An additional N7 mission or two wouldn't have been out of place, and I would have much rather had a grand finale to the trilogy than a tacked on multiplayer.

[kamikasei]

Those Javik comics, good god. (Yes, I'm hearing them in his voice.)

How old is Chakwas? (Too lazy to check.)

Not sure, and true enough that there are any number of characters who could be over a hundred for whom it just never comes up. It just struck me that James referred to Hackett as an "old guy" at one point and I thought "...wait, what? 50 is 'old' for a soldier in this society, still?".

But as far as their statement, it got taken down from the General forums, so it's possible they aren't endorsing that view any more. Make of that what you will.

Oho. About time. That sticky was quite a middle finger to the fans. "YES, we were totally telling the truth about this. NO, we're not actually going to address any of the questions you have about how that appears to be impossible. Just trust us! We've given you so much reason to, lately, after all."

[Derthric]

If by "more game" you mean more planet scanning and Benny Hill reaper chases... ugh. Give me MP any day

Oh good lord no! The Benny Hill Reaperness would have been fine if I could actually respond with more than "run away! run away!"

I meant more squad convos and an actual interface for gun upgrades. More N7 missions, actually having to go down and find the items instead of simply scanning. That sort of thing.

[Psyren]

Oho. About time. That sticky was quite a middle finger to the fans. "YES, we were totally telling the truth about this. NO, we're not actually going to address any of the questions you have about how that appears to be impossible. Just trust us! We've given you so much reason to, lately, after all."

You know what's really hilarious? I don't think a single fan asked about this problem at PAX. Good job, Retake movement!

[GloatingSwine]

This was a (don't hit me) artistic decision. All throughout the game you can argue down just about anything, sure - but never the Reapers. Sovereign didn't listen, Harbinger didn't listen, and... Ranny(?) didn't listen. Why should they listen now?

They didn't listen before because it wasn't the end of the game.

They listen now because commander space jesus has the whole galaxy united all at once, all in one place shooting at them.

And whilst you might think the reapers are some kind of invincible star gods, but that doesn't fit with their actions. They use this elaborate trap on the Citadel despite the fact that even if they started moving when the Rachni failed, they're only 1500 years away, which is nothing compared to billions of years old creatures (and they apparently kept trying to use the trap even if they're right next to the target). That implies that they don't need the Citadel to enter the galaxy, but they need the surprise attack and control over the relays it grants them. And when they do arrive they concentrate their forces as much as possible to eliminate the force that proved most troublesome. The Reapers act like a force that fears defeat, not one confident in their immortality, despite what Harbinger and Sovereign may say.

[Psyren]

They didn't listen before because it wasn't the end of the game.

They listen now because commander space jesus has the whole galaxy united all at once, all in one place shooting at them.

A galaxy full of ants are still ants, even if you gather them into one place.

The Reapers act like a force that fears defeat, not one confident in their immortality, despite what Harbinger and Sovereign may say.

If they were really afraid, why would they:
(a) launch their harvest anyway after the Citadel trap had been disarmed,
(b) wage war on multiple fronts simultaneously (Not sure where you got "concentrate their forces" from) instead of eradicating one world at a time with combined strength.

The only time they pooled their forces - i.e. the only time they seemed afraid at all - was after TIM told them you were bringing the Crucible over to the Citadel. If they were afraid of anything at all, it was the Crucible, not the army.

[Dienekes]

About disc space and multiplayer. For me, I physically cannot do multiplayer because I do not have x-box gold and will never have x-box gold. So because of the decision to include multiplayer and the way they decided to make it influence the game, yes. I would much rather have Ash's and Shepard's dialogue, and the ability to freaking reach 5000 in war assets (apparently it is mathematically impossible to reach 4000). If including it meant dropping content in any way then I am against it. If they had to make galactic readiness involved with multiplayer I am against it (which they didn't but that was a ****ing stupid decision in the first place).

[GloatingSwine]

If they were really afraid, why would they:
(a) launch their harvest anyway after the Citadel trap had been disarmed,

When the Collectors failed, they'd run out of backup plans.

(b) wage war on multiple fronts simultaneously (Not sure where you got "concentrate their forces" from) instead of eradicating one world at a time with combined strength.

It's mentioned multiple times that the bulk of the Reapers' forces are at Earth. That's why you are gathering the galaxy's forces to go there, as opposed to anywhere else.

[Psyren]

When the Collectors failed, they'd run out of backup plans.

That still doesn't indicate any sort of trepidation. It's more akin to rolling your pant-legs up and wading into the grapes because your wine press broke.

It's mentioned multiple times that the bulk of the Reapers' forces are at Earth. That's why you are gathering the galaxy's forces to go there, as opposed to anywhere else.

Even if that's true, they still had enough extra to swat Palaven, Thessia and multiple colonies like flies. They have no reason to listen to a Crucible-less Shepard.

[Landis963]

About disc space and multiplayer. For me, I physically cannot do multiplayer because I do not have x-box gold and will never have x-box gold. So because of the decision to include multiplayer and the way they decided to make it influence the game, yes. I would much rather have Ash's and Shepard's dialogue, and the ability to freaking reach 5000 in war assets (apparently it is mathematically impossible to reach 4000). If including it meant dropping content in any way then I am against it. If they had to make galactic readiness involved with multiplayer I am against it (which they didn't but that was a ****ing stupid decision in the first place).

If you import a save from ME2, then you have a shot at 5000: I currently have 5492 or something like that in my canon!Shep run after being shunted back to before Cronus Station after completing the game. However, that's mostly paragon, no one left behind, Wrex & Eve in charge on Tuchanka and the genophage cured, everything right on Rannoch except the Heretic Geth (I rewrote them rather than destroying them, which left me no room to breathe at all), yadda yadda yadda. If you don't, then it depends on how many people the game think died in ME2 (you get to choose between three levels of suicide-mission lethality at the beginning of a new playthrough, so I've heard). The game chooses who dies regardless (and someone always does die, I've heard).

[NeoVid]

I got to try the multiplayer, and it was a ton of fun.

However, I don't have internet at home, so I have no way to raise readiness, so I'm screwed in singleplayer.

Finding out that the multiplayer resulted in cut content is really frustrating... and also confusing, since I thought part of why they added multiplayer was the fact that all the components to make a multiplayer mode were already present in the game:

Stages
Skills
Character models
Enemy AI

Hmm.

[Joran]

It's mentioned multiple times that the bulk of the Reapers' forces are at Earth. That's why you are gathering the galaxy's forces to go there, as opposed to anywhere else.

I thought that the Reapers had mostly spread out to take Palaven, Earth, Thessia all at once. It's only after TIM alerts them to the Crucible threat and the Reapers take the Citadel that they group up at Earth. The Reapers move the Citadel to Earth, amass their fleet, and await Shepard's combined fleet. Shepard is forced to attack Earth because that's where the Citadel is (conveniently).

The fact that the Reapers manage to take out 3 Council homeworlds without much of a sweat is really impressive.

[VanBuren]

When the Collectors failed, they'd run out of backup plans.



It's mentioned multiple times that the bulk of the Reapers' forces are at Earth. That's why you are gathering the galaxy's forces to go there, as opposed to anywhere else.

Wait, I thought that became the plan when TIM moved the Citadel there.

[GloatingSwine]

Wait, I thought that became the plan when TIM moved the Citadel there.

No, Shepard was trying to convince the alien races to come to Earth all along, because that's where the majority of the Reaper force was. That is literally the argument you use, especially with Primarch Victus. They're attacking the other places as well, but most of the Reapers are at Earth.

[kamikasei]

If you import a save from ME2, then you have a shot at 5000: I currently have 5492 or something like that in my canon!Shep run after being shunted back to before Cronus Station after completing the game.

I strongly suspect you're making a mistake somewhere. Most likely, you're looking at total assets, have a higher than 50% readiness, or have promoted multiplayer characters or other assets not available through single-player only. The 4k/5k figure is for effective assets, after readiness is applied, so that if you go in to the final fight with less than 8k total you don't get the "Shepard lives" version of the Destroy ending.

I finished up with just below 7200 total / 3600 effective, on an ME -> ME2 -> ME3 import with No One Left Behind, the genophage cured with Eve living and marrying Wrex, the geth and the quarians united, etc. as well as almost all the content in ME3 explored (a few quests cut short by Priority: Tuchanka - I'm still annoyed by that) and a handful of penalties from choices made such as who to side with in various minor disputes. If there are 800 extra assets to be scraped up between - well, what? - leaving Chakwas and the VS on the Citadel to aid the war effort, going back to the first game and killing Wrex so that a dumber Wreav will commit weakened krogan forces alongside the salarian fleets I get for sabotaging the cure? - I have a hard time seeing where they might come from.

[Landis963]

I strongly suspect you're making a mistake somewhere. Most likely, you're looking at total assets, have a higher than 50% readiness, or have promoted multiplayer characters or other assets not available through single-player only. The 4k/5k figure is for effective assets, after readiness is applied, so that if you go in to the final fight with less than 8k total you don't get the "Shepard lives" version of the Destroy ending.

Maybe. At the very least, that bar at the bottom was maxed out and green, as I recall. I don't remember what I had after beating the game the first time in terms of readiness, (~75%? Maybe?), but I've gotten it up to 80-something percent by now. That plus "total vs. effective" could account for my mistake. And I haven't promoted a single character in multiplayer right now: waiting for another character unlock card or my Vanguard to reach level 20 (which I'm assuming is the max) first.

[Luzahn]

Maybe. At the very least, that bar at the bottom was maxed out and green, as I recall. I don't remember what I had after beating the game the first time in terms of readiness, (~75%? Maybe?), but I've gotten it up to 80-something percent by now. That plus "total vs. effective" could account for my mistake. And I haven't promoted a single character in multiplayer right now: waiting for another character unlock card or my Vanguard to reach level 20 (which I'm assuming is the max) first.

The default, multiplayer-less readiness is either 50% or 51%, I don't recall which. Anything above that is due to multi.

[GloatingSwine]

The max war assets is apparently around 7200 if you make absolutely optimal decisions.

You can't get the final scene with Shepard taking a breath, or the achievement for war assets, without playing multiplayer or the iPad game. You can get the green space magic though.