The Linear Guild, Love, and Family?

[Gift Jeraff]

We know that "evil people can love" is somewhat of a running theme in OOTS, but the 2 characters who have interested me the most regarding that subject are Tarquin and Sabine. With the latest strip fueling the idea that Tarquin has chosen "business"/Malack over his own son, I felt it was relevant to start a thread about this. So, the 2 main questions on my mind are:

Does Sabine love Nale?
I'm in the camp that thinks #804 implies that Sabine has chosen Nale over the IFCC. If she truly does plan to outright backstab Nale, why not just be honest with Qarr? Where's the harm in saying she's just using him and is 100% loyal to the Directors? At the very least, I think she's conflicted about the decision. I guess this is supposed to be a mystery, so there's not much point in discussing it until we learn more...

Does Tarquin love Nale?
Or, rather, does he love Elan and Nale equally? The general forum consensus seems to be he prefers Elan and views Nale as disposable, but I think he does love Nale. He plans on betraying Nale, but more as a test to see how/if he gets out of it, and to breed a more competent villain, worthy of carrying on T's legacy.

The way I see it, both Sabine and Tarquin portray Evil as a family with values alien to ours. For Sabine, kill-stealing is her version of an affair and sacrifices are like romantic dinners. For Tarquin, there's nothing wrong with trying to overthrow or kill your own father. You just have to do it the correct way.

Which then got me thinking: is the Linear Guild plotline* as a whole (not just Tarquin and Sabine) being used to depict Evil as a dysfunctional family? There's the obvious Malack avenging his children subplot, and there's Thog calling Nale and Sabine family.

Could this be in contrast to Team Evil portraying Evil as a cutthroat business? Compare Redcloak and Tsukiko's feud to employees competing on the corporate ladder. Also, compare and contrast Redcloak and Sabine. In both cases, you have the second-in-command of an evil organization trying to manipulate their evil sorcerer boss into furthering the goals of their Evil Outsider overlord(s). SoD:

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And both had to choose between someone they love and work. Redcloak chose work, whereas Sabine has, IMO, chosen the one she loves.

The main hole in this line of thinking is Tarquin's comment about having no more kids because of how Nale turned out. That's rather...extreme. And not very family-friendly.

I guess I should address Nale, too. I don't think he loves anyone besides himself. Sabine is just a useful minion and source of sexual pleasure for him, and he wants to earn Tarquin's admiration, not his love. In fact, War and XPs seems to imply that hatred is the very core of his being, going as far to say that he is no less evil than Xykon (who is apathetic to his victims, whereas Nale is antipathetic). However, I did have this crazy idea that, for a brief moment, he may have been willing to "love" Elan. After all, if you love yourself so much, it's only logical that you are capable of loving someone identical to yourself, no? If Elan was the first person Nale ever truly reached out to, it would certainly explain the overreaction to Elan's rejection, as opposed to the calm response to Amun-Zora doing something similar. Eh, I don't buy it myself, but it's an interesting thought.



Wow, I guess this turned out to be a disjointed "I love the sound of my own voice" blog-like post. Sorry for wasting your time.

*By "Linear Guild plotline" I mean Elan, the core Linear Guilders, Tarquin, and Malack, although I guess Hilgya and Yikyik/Yokyok fit in rather neatly.

[Steward]

Wow, this is a really interesting post! I never thought about the contrast between Xykon's team and Tarquin's before, but now that you explained it like that it makes perfect sense. Xykon and Tarquin are both horrific, but Tarquin seems capable of genuine love and camaraderie in a way that Xykon does not.

I consider that a strength on Tarquin's part -- I don't see any of the members of his group betraying him the way Redcloak betrayed/is betraying Xykon and I definitely think that if Xykon had been a better boss Tsukiko would have come to him with the valuable information that she uncovered instead of going behind his back to parley with Redcloak. And, of course, if Xykon does get blindsided with that information later, it will be on his own head since his pattern of cruelty and disregard even for people that he relies upon is why he didn't get it until it was too late.

The parallel between Redcloak and Sabine is also profound.

I'm not clear on whether or not Nale loves Sabine. I think he's definitely manipulative and callous but he's kind of gotten away with that since she always comes back to him and seems to overlook his excesses even when it should be obvious. I think that the best test for that would be a situation where Nale is deprived of Sabine but isn't embroiled in some plot or anything to distract him from his loss. Will he try to get her back or will he just replace her the way he replaced Hilgya with Leeky and Zz'dtri with Pompey.?

[Kish]

I think Sabine and Tarquin both love Nale as much as they're capable of; Tarquin believes that that means he loves Nale, at least as much as anyone in the world loves anyone, and Sabine perhaps doesn't think she truly loves Nale.

Or in other words, no and no, with Sabine understanding her own...constitutional inabilities...better than Tarquin understands his.

[Forikroder]

I'm in the camp that thinks #804 implies that Sabine has chosen Nale over the IFCC. If she truly does plan to outright backstab Nale, why not just be honest with Qarr? Where's the harm in saying she's just using him and is 100% loyal to the Directors? At the very least, I think she's conflicted about the decision. I guess this is supposed to be a mystery, so there's not much point in discussing it until we learn more...

i think shes conflicted and jsut trying to find a way to not ahve to choose

Or, rather, does he love Elan and Nale equally? The general forum consensus seems to be he prefers Elan and views Nale as disposable, but I think he does love Nale. He plans on betraying Nale, but more as a test to see how/if he gets out of it, and to breed a more competent villain, worthy of carrying on T's legacy.

oh hell no the guys got less of a heart then Arthas, he only like Elan cause Elan took after him in the ways(tarqun thinks) it counts

I guess I should address Nale, too. I don't think he loves anyone besides himself. Sabine is just a useful minion and source of sexual pleasure for him, and he wants to earn Tarquin's admiration, not his love. In fact, War and XPs seems to imply that hatred is the very core of his being, going as far to say that he is no less evil than Xykon (who is apathetic to his victims, whereas Nale is antipathetic). However, I did have this crazy idea that, for a brief moment, he may have been willing to "love" Elan. After all, if you love yourself so much, it's only logical that you are capable of loving someone identical to yourself, no? If Elan was the first person Nale ever truly reached out to, it would certainly explain the overreaction to Elan's rejection, as opposed to the calm response to Amun-Zora doing something similar. Eh, I don't buy it myself, but it's an interesting thought.

i think he really loves Sabine as much as Sabine loves him, his actions shows he thinks more of her then as just some object of pleasure since he went out of his way to get haley for her (he could ahve killed her pretty easily earlier but he didnt for Sabine)

i think he was a very very serious superiorty complex which causes what people see as want for parental affection he legitimately believs hes amazingly smart and everyone should serve him

also amun-zora never really refused him, she did take his card she got went to talk to her allies first its not like she straight said to his face "i have no intention of ever working with you" plus shes aiming for Nales father so thats a plus

if she didnt hate Tarquin he would have fed her to Sabine

I consider that a strength on Tarquin's part -- I don't see any of the members of his group betraying him the way Redcloak betrayed/is betraying Xykon and I definitely think that if Xykon had been a better boss Tsukiko would have come to him with the valuable information that she uncovered instead of going behind his back to parley with Redcloak. And, of course, if Xykon does get blindsided with that information later, it will be on his own head since his pattern of cruelty and disregard even for people that he relies upon is why he didn't get it until it was too late.

i dont think so, Tsukiko thought Xykon was the best being in the world she didnt have any concrete evidence to nail redcloak down with just a ritual that was a bit off but no evidence it was off in a way that hurt Xykon all she could really tell him is redcloak is suspicious which he already knew or Tsukiko wouldnt ahve had the ritual, she needed more information from redclaoks study (even if it was just redclaoks admitance that tsukikos suspicion that the ritual was suspicious was true) before she could take it to Xykon

[Steward]

You're right, Tsukiko didn't have concrete evidence to nail Redcloak, but in a healthy organization if an underling discovers that there might be a critical flaw that undermines the centerpiece of the boss's big plan, that underling goes and tells her boss as soon as possible, instead of trying to use the information as a lever to sabotage a rival. (If it turns out to be inconsequential, well, it's not a big deal. Because in a healthy organization, you don't punish people for being careful and attentive to detail when they're just looking out for your interests).

Xykon's callousness and inhuman behavior makes his team unhealthy. The only member who actually seemed to support his goals died a ghoulish (wightish?) death and he is still -- as far as we know -- operating completely blind to Redcloak's ulterior motive or the true purpose of the divine portion of Redcloak's spell.

I really don't think that Tarquin's group operates that way. They might have their problems, but Tarquin doesn't seem like the person who would just shruggingly accept it without any questions if he came home from the office to find that Miron executed Malack or something like that. I get the impression that he takes the time to know exactly what is going on with all of his top allies, and if they ever found information that would be crucial to his own success they would come forward and share it with him without any fear that he'll kill them for no reason.

Xykon's people don't have that luxury, because even though we the reader know that there's a method to his madness, he comes across as a capricious psychopathic killer and Redcloak and Tsukiko just work around him now and don't share information with him spontaneously.

(The analogy to a corporation is especially apt; Tarquin's team feels more like an evil adventuring party. They might be bad people, but they're friends with each other. Xykon's team is more like one of those corporations that ends on the news after some huge scandal that half the people in the company saw coming but were too afraid of the CEO and his clique to say anything until finally everything falls apart and everyone loses their shirts.)

[Forikroder]

You're right, Tsukiko didn't have concrete evidence to nail Redcloak, but in a healthy organization if an underling discovers that there might be a critical flaw that undermines the centerpiece of the boss's big plan, that underling goes and tells her boss as soon as possible, instead of trying to use the information as a lever to sabotage a rival. (If it turns out to be inconsequential, well, it's not a big deal. Because in a healthy organization, you don't punish people for being careful and attentive to detail when they're just looking out for your interests).

but the point is she didnt know it, she knew the school of magic used was odd, but Xykon already was suspicious of a double cross by redcloak, thats why he gave the ritual to Tsukiko so she figure out if he was right, all she could tell him was the ritual was odd

I really don't think that Tarquin's group operates that way. They might have their problems, but Tarquin doesn't seem like the person who would just shruggingly accept it without any questions if he came home from the office to find that Miron executed Malack or something like that. I get the impression that he takes the time to know exactly what is going on with all of his top allies, and if they ever found information that would be crucial to his own success they would come forward and share it with him without any fear that he'll kill them for no reason.

Tarquins team is more of an alliance while Xykons is mroe of a dictatorship Tsukiko holds literally no power in team evil that Xykon or Redcloak didnt give her but in Tarquins team every member is pretty much equal, they could even get rid of tarquin if they wanted to

plus Tarquins group is all working towards a common goal while team evil is working towards 2 very different goals

[Winter]

Sabine and Nale:
As the story is now, I think Sabine genuinely loves Nale. It is some sort of perversion or maybe glitch in the universe that Sabine is able to feel this, but I think it is what is.
I also find it a nice touch that even creatures as Demons and Devils can, in rare exceptions feel love.

It is a good case of "Love makes the best drama" and "Love trumps every and any limitation in live, be it class, gender, or race". In this case, this even applies to something that should not, by the definition of the universe, feel love.
I find that an awesome twist.

I also think that Nale loves Sabine, but probably, if things really get nasty, he'll not sacrifice himself for her but abandon her. That adds tragic and seems in line with his character.
I guess Sabine is in for a very dramatic end. She's giving up her immortality (she'll die in the end) and "what she is" for a person she loves. That was awesome with Arwen and it's awesome here.

Tarquin and Nale:
I think Tarquin loves Elan.
I doubt he loves Nale. He only has shown he is not willing to kill Nale on a glance, but he has not shown and feeling that compares to what he did for Elan and what he told him. He treats the two entirely different, even if both are his antagonists and even enemies.
He needs Elan for something and plans to fight him on the death, but I actually think that Tarquin does love Elan.

Whatever love he had for Nale is at least greatly dimished by Nale. He is the "diappointed father", with all that means. I doubt that relationship is beyond redemption, but knowing Nale it is unlikely he'll be able to reconcile.

[Ellye]

I do think Tarquin loves both Elan and Nale.
I'm pretty sure that he does genuinely loves and cares for Elan, and his speak about Elan eventually dethroning him in a climatic duel was sincere.
I do think he also loves Nale, and that this is the only reason Nale isn't dead. Tarquin probably could have killed Nale many years ago, but instead chose to let him escape, and I'll do so again.