A quick and dirty ToB Fix for some core classes?

[ngilop]

Hey guys I got to thinking. well the ToB is really just Fighters, Paladins and Rouges: Redux

so.. why not just do that to start?

so here is my ToB update for the Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue. the class that the ToB classes should have been from the get go for 3rd ed IMO.

Fighter ::: Gains access to any 5 Martial Disciplines of thewir choosing and gain 4 skill points per level. Upon reaching 10th level gains a 6th Martial Discipline. Gets maneuver progression as a Sword Sage, and Recovery as a Warblade

Paladin ::: Gains access to the Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon and White raven Disciplines. As well as 4 skill points per level Gets Maneuver progression as a Warblade, and Recovery as a Swordsage

Ranger ::: Gains access to the Deseret Wind, Stone Dragon, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw and Iron Heart Dsciplines. Gets Maneuver progress as a Warblade, and Recovery as a Swordsage

Rogue ::: Gains access to the Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, and Tiger Claw Disciplines. Gets Maneuver progression as a Warblade, Recovery as a Sword Sage. Also gain the Sword Sage Quick to Act ability.


they lose NONE of their already available abilities. Any Maneuver is usable with a ranged weapon as well. Is this enough to bump these classes up a 'Tier' ?

[Eloel]

Sounds like a plan, though as currently written, mostly makes the current ToB classes obsolete (since these classes have actual class abilities that were thought (yeah, yeah...) to be balanced with those maneuvers)

[ngilop]

you mean how the ToB classes rendered those same classes obsolete?

the irony is not lost on me.

[Terazul]

Fighter and whatnot aren't rendered obsolete. They're still useful for dips.

But yeah, this has been done before pretty well.

[ngilop]

never seen those before but I have this to say about them


while you might think they are good, i fell they are not. they all lose their class abilities just to gain maneuvers, something that i dislike. becuase now all you have is really a fighter for example is a warblade with no class abilities less skill points and a lower HD bonus. basically a weaker version fo warblade that again I would just go ahead and choose Warblade striahgt out of the gate. or the palaidn losing 2/3 of his class abilities to pick up crusader light.


at least in my opinion keeping these classes with their own class features makes them an attractive alternative to the ToB classes that replace them.

[Terazul]

You say that like the Fighter had class abilities in the first place. It still maintains a hefty load of bonus feats (Like really, it's 8 vs 11) that while the Warblade qualifies for (with his regular 3/6/9/etc feats), doesn't even get on its list (Its bonus feat list is actually incredibly sparse), and by virtue of adding maneuvers it gains a host of class skills as well. Most people don't have any non-int based class at 2 skill points anymore, so that's easy enough for those changes around.

Ranger doesn't need both maneuvers and spellcasting, as they fill the same role, versatility, and doing things his normal attacks couldn't.

Same with Paladin really. Though paladin casting was kind of nice if you got it going.

Rogue gets a slightly more delayed sneak attack without heavy loss, that can be made up for with Assassin's stance if they so choose; the entire point of SA is to increase damage output, which maneuvers also do, so no real loss.

These are all just as attractive as the baseline ToB options, and doesn't involve wacky combinations of different classes recovery and progression.

[ngilop]

Oh.. i also forgot to include teh change up to desert wind, any of the following are substitutes for teh Desert Wind (Fire) Discipline

Artic Wind ( Cold) Cackling Wind (Electricity) Vitriolic Wind (Acid)

and Stone Dragon DOES NOT require one to be touching the ground