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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Eberron: paying taxes?

    I've seen several references in the Eberron sourcebooks to paying taxes, but not any rates or tables for the actual amounts.

    Am I overlooking something obvious?

    Are they deeply hidden?

    Or are they just non-existent?
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alienist View Post
    I've seen several references in the Eberron sourcebooks to paying taxes, but not any rates or tables for the actual amounts.

    Am I overlooking something obvious?

    Are they deeply hidden?

    Or are they just non-existent?
    At a guess, they're not meant to be mechanical in a hard-and-fast way. If you think it's appropriate for PCs to have to pay taxes, the books might have some suggestions as to who might be taxing them and why, but there probably aren't specific numbers for it.

    This is all just conjecture on my part. I haven't read the parts in question, at least not in a long time.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Adventurers are, famously, heavily armed murderous hobos who show no respect whatsoever to anyone who isn't in their clique of 4-6 similarly minded individuals. They poke around in terrifically dangerous caves and crypts on the off chance that one of their might contain treasure, slaughtering any creature that objects to this behavior.

    Once successful, they break open chests full of archaeological treasures like piggy banks, and refuse to spend their ill-gotten gains on housing, food, or anything but weapons, armor, and magical items. They treat being reminded to eat and bathe as nuisance bookkeeping, have a statistically unlikely probability of being orphans, and regard entire species that consider them to be mortal foes as "cannon fodder".

    I would assume that they owe back taxes.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Connington View Post
    I would assume that they owe back taxes.
    Alternatively, assume that the Lost Wealth of T'charr doesn't actually count as a salary and assume they're tax exempt.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    It depends of if they have a place of residence. Most adventurers probably don't, and wander from country to country. In addition, let me ask you, "Do you have to pay taxes if you find a 20$ bill on the ground?"
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    @Connington Thank you for that laugh, and it brings up a good point. We can't think of taxation in the traditional sense in terms of applying to adventurers. In a game I am in now, the Duke of the area actually formed an office, the Office of Adventuring and Dungeoneering (it's basically the DMV), which specifically deals with both licensing adventurers, and handling adventuring contracts. All adventurers have to be licensed (which includes a fee), and in order to complete the licensing process they have to join an adventuring guild. Each guild has to have a guild hall and lodging for members (which it pays property taxes on), as well as paying a fee to remain an official adventuring guild. In turn, the guilds make their money by taking some of the spoils of their members, when their members complete contracts given by the guild. If a person wants to hire adventurers, they go to the OAD, which in turn gives the contract to a guild (it seems like it is only one guild that gets each contract, so presumably they bid over them), and then the guild members can find the contracts in the guild halls. Adventurers accept the contract, go do their thing, keep the loot and also get a fee for the contract (which the OAD actually pays half of, since the Duke wants people to be willing to hire adventurers if they are in trouble).

    My point is, trying to tax adventurers directly would probably be difficult to implement and probably pointless, much like it would have been pointless for feudal lords to try to take taxes from each individual person, rather than simply taking a share of the harvest.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Namfuak View Post
    (it's basically the DMV)
    Ah screw that then. I'm brave enough to take on an Ancient Red Dragon, but the DMV? No thank you.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2012-04-07 at 08:57 PM.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Well historically taxes were 10%. Tithe being literally 'a tenth part'.

    However this breaks down real fast in D&D.

    When we are talking 10% of your annual wheat harvest, it works well. But PC wealth quickly skyrockets to stratospheric levels compared to the rest of mundane society. Even a tenth part of PC wealth would quickly be a silly value compare to the operating budget of any mundane pursuits.

    I'm assuming here you register adventuring Parties rather than individuals since solo adventure's have a name where I'm from. "Lunch"

    A 15th level part's taxes at 10% would be 20k, which is enough cash to break the economy of a small city.

    It's also enough money to raise and feed a small army 300-400 men depending on the quality of gear. If I were your PC's I'd be tempted to spend my tax money on starting my own kingdom and daring Duke Tightfisted to come and try to collect some taxes off me.

    the flip side of that is of coruse, a realistically low value is going to quickly be low enough that PC's tend not to care at all. When dues are a GP a year (Quite high on a mundane budget) PC's tend to buy memberships by the decade.
    Last edited by TypoNinja; 2012-04-07 at 06:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    It depends of if they have a place of residence. Most adventurers probably don't, and wander from country to country. In addition, let me ask you, "Do you have to pay taxes if you find a 20$ bill on the ground?"
    Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    Ah screw that then. I'm brave enough to take on the that Ancient Red Dragon, but the DMV? No thank you.
    Although it's implied we wait in line for a long time each time, we use the magic of "We go to the OAD and collect our check. Does anything interesting happen?" To which the DM invariably replies "No." And then we get on with other stuff.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."
    Those adventures happen to be Necropolitan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    Those adventures happen to be Necropolitan
    Alright then, how about this?

    Tax collector: I'm here to claim 10% of your wealth as per the tax laws our fair and just Lord......
    Adventurer: Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."
    Also, very few adventurers will buy a cottage on market street. They're all going to have, like, floating cubes of ice suspended over the Chasm of Gar'Nicheg or something where it would require a small army (or one man with a long ladder) just to reach the front door.

    That said, with most adventurers being Good, they'd happily contribute to the country by killing a dragon here or stopping the imminent destruction of the world there. They're probably on first name terms with the king, to be honest.
    Last edited by shadow_archmagi; 2012-04-07 at 07:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    Alright then, how about this?

    Tax collector: I'm here to claim 10% of your wealth as per the tax laws our fair and just Lord......
    Adventurer: Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.
    Note that this doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms, as the Tax Collector is a retired epic-level Swiftblade.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Note that this doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms, as the Tax Collector is a retired epic-level Swiftblade.
    This is an Eberron thread.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    This is an Eberron thread.
    Where the tax collector is likely backed by, or even a member of house Kundarak.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    who'se highest level NPC clocks in at 12th.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Good PCs will abuse the trap rules just to mess with the Tax collectors, causing an entire war between them and the country once the country realizes they have 50,000gp(Think of that in NPC terms...)

    Fighter:"Hey guys, another tax collector is walking up to the door again."
    Cleric:"Don't worry we'll---"
    Kobold Artificer "Wait for it..."

    NPC "My eeeyes! What? I can't hear anything either? Help! Help!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmir View Post
    When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    that... would actually make for a very fun session if the party was Chaotic...

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    If you're wondering who the tax collectors are, the Coin Lords are pretty much the top dogs in that area from what I've seen in DDO. Once, you get hired by a member of them to collect some guy's overdue taxes for him.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    that... would actually make for a very fun session if the party was Chaotic...
    Indeed. You could have a whole campaign based on escaping taxes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmir View Post
    When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
    Blood~

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Augmental View Post
    If you're wondering who the tax collectors are, the Coin Lords are pretty much the top dogs in that area from what I've seen in DDO. Once, you get hired by a member of them to collect some guy's overdue taxes for him.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."
    Really? I wasn't aware that there were no Lawful adventurers in Eberron...

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    Exactly. Even those adventurers who do claim residences probably take the stance of "You can have your taxes when you pry them from my cold dead hands."
    "There are two things in life that are certain: death and taxes."
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleran View Post
    "There are two things in life that are certain: death and taxes."
    And a high level wizards ability to break a planet :P

    I'm the kinda guy who would pay my 20k taxes in copper.

    Haul this away sucker!

    At 40,000 lbs and a total volume of a couple thousand cubic feet, I could bury a small cottage in coinage. :D

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    And a high level wizards ability to break a planet :P

    I'm the kinda guy who would pay my 20k taxes in copper.

    Haul this away sucker!

    At 40,000 lbs and a total volume of a couple thousand cubic feet, I could bury a small cottage in coinage. :D
    a few coppers per day keeps the tax collector at bay

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    I'd pay in salt.
    What? It's a trade good, feudal systems usually took tax in goods as well as coinage, so it's totally legal. Pay in salt, by the ton.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    Indeed. You could have a whole campaign based on escaping taxes
    Even better, first the local taxmaster sends the heroes out to collect some money from a few goblins in the woods, then as soon as they receive their just reward:

    "Ah thanks for taking the overdue taxes from the goblins. 100 gps and like agreed you will receive half of it."
    [party turns to leave]
    "Mhm... wait a minute. Are you registred taxpayers somewhere? No? Oh by the word of my lord you're now citizens of his realm and therefore have to pay taxes."
    [appraisecheck]
    "Now all your magic items and the gold in your pockets sums up to roundabout 150,000 gps and a tenth will go to your new rightful ruler the king"
    [Guards surround the party]
    "Do you prefer to pay in gold or platinum?"

    Bonuspoints if it is a good kingdom and a paladin (or something lawfull) in the party.
    Last edited by Bouregard; 2012-04-08 at 08:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    As much as I tend towards simulationism I wouldn't ever bother taxing the average adventuring party except maybe with tolls. Taxes in pre-modern states were mostly on land and trade, things most adventurers don't bother with. There's no personal income tax or a property tax that covers the stuff you carry on your person. If there's a tax on the trade of magic items one can assume that's covered by the 50% you loose from selling them.

    Of course what constitutes a legitimate authority and reasonable taxation was probably much more vague back then. Some robber knight might exact a toll that amounted to theft on the people traveling on his road. Arbitrary taxation, or even just slightly more taxation, was also a pretty good recipe for revolt.

    So if the adventurers are suddenly faced with a tax collector that demands 10% of their stuff even the lawful members might consider that unjust as a breach of accepted norms. Any DM that had his NPCs make that demand should also expect a battle.

    If however your adventurers actually own land or property you might have to start thinking about what they should pay or whether they might be exempt as clergy or nobility and what other services they might then be obliged to render.
    Last edited by Ormur; 2012-04-08 at 08:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ormur View Post
    If however your adventurers actually own land or property you might have to start thinking about what they should pay or whether they might be exempt as clergy or nobility and what other services they might then be obliged to render.
    Does this mean that a cleric of Gruumsh would be exempt from any retribution after performing blood sacrifices because he would claim benefit of the clergy and be tried in an ecclesiastical court of Gruumsh?

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