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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Necroticplague's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    I just add "tax evasion" to the long list of crimes that an adventurer regularly performs when going about their jobs. Nobody minds the murder, manslaughter, genocide, cannibalism, desecration of graves, stealing, robbery,vagrancy,pillaging,war crimes, looting,illegal immigration, arson, pollution, and excessive ransacking too much, I'm sure they won't mind a little bit of tax evasion. Although, in one campaign i was in, it actually became a running gag that any devils we fought were "infernal tax collectors" trying to get us for the property tax of the giant house in my stomach.
    Last edited by Necroticplague; 2012-04-08 at 11:14 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bouregard View Post
    Even better, first the local taxmaster sends the heroes out to collect some money from a few goblins in the woods, then as soon as they receive their just reward:

    "Ah thanks for taking the overdue taxes from the goblins. 100 gps and like agreed you will receive half of it."
    [party turns to leave]
    "Mhm... wait a minute. Are you registred taxpayers somewhere? No? Oh by the word of my lord you're now citizens of his realm and therefore have to pay taxes."
    [appraisecheck]
    "Now all your magic items and the gold in your pockets sums up to roundabout 150,000 gps and a tenth will go to your new rightful ruler the king"
    [Guards surround the party]
    "Do you prefer to pay in gold or platinum?"

    Bonuspoints if it is a good kingdom and a paladin (or something lawfull) in the party.
    I'd probably respond to that with a Black Tentacles or similar AoE spell. That's a jerk move on the kingdom's part, and I'd be hesitant to call it good. Unless that's the point, of course.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Namfuak View Post
    Does this mean that a cleric of Gruumsh would be exempt from any retribution after performing blood sacrifices because he would claim benefit of the clergy and be tried in an ecclesiastical court of Gruumsh?
    I imagine that the church of Gruumsh would not enjoy benefit of the clergy in a state that forbade blood sacrifices by it in the first place.
    Last edited by Ormur; 2012-04-08 at 11:33 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Ah screw that then. I'm brave enough to take on an Ancient Red Dragon, but the DMV? No thank you.
    Nice Joker reference.

    But yeah. This seems like a very dangerous proposal. In PC versus non-NPC fights, PC's win, and if PC's have EVER seen WBL tabls, they will never, ever part with their gold.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Augmental View Post
    I'd probably respond to that with a Black Tentacles or similar AoE spell. That's a jerk move on the kingdom's part, and I'd be hesitant to call it good. Unless that's the point, of course.
    [party prepares Black Tentacles]

    [Clerk takes a step back]

    "Now hold on a minute, we're not bandits you can slay without facing any consequences. I and my tax officials are rightfully appointed man of the crown. I assure you that any violence against us will result in a bounty on your heads not only here but also in our two allied kingdoms."

    "If the sum is the problem, then I can guarantee you that I already used the law in your favour.
    My lord would request that a group of our internal clerks would review your earnings for the last 10 years and you would have to pay a tenth of that. This could easily take a few years."

    "Further I implore you to see the bigger picture. My lord makes sure that all taxes taken from citizens of the realm will be put to good use.

    "For example building new temples to appease the gods and render services to travellers,

    or paying our local guards to keep the streets free of any crime,

    building fortifications to protect our citizens from invading armies,

    placing bounties on malcontents,

    and maintaining and building the roads that you so like to use in our nice little kingdom."



    /RP mode off

    I so like to play devil's advocate.

    Sure the PCs can just mow down the random taxcollector or worse, use him as a nice free-money-delivery service...

    I mean do you know how hard it is to loot an entire village? Hundreds of search and apppraise checks just to get a few hundred goldpieces...

    Now just looting the tax collector after he did his duty.. thats the high art of advanced banditry.

    Back to topic...
    I see it as a nice opportunity to create interesting situation for the DM, yes the NPCs may just butcher the clerk and his guards but keep in mind that having a bounty on your head complicates a shopping trip significantly.
    Every PC knows what happen to Goblins who defy the kings law and get a bounty on their head; they get a visit from a few higher level adventurers.
    Why do you think just because you're a PC it is different?

    They kill the tax guy = a few nights later they get a unfriendly visit by a few other adventurers with the same problem but those new guys elected to trade their taxes for a job to bring down some other guys for tax evasion.

    Yes the PCs are powerful but headbutting an entire nation... thats suicide... if you're not epic level.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    No, you just kill these imposters, because no king would hire such incompetent morons that have to resort to violence against adventurers and then suddenly back down when one of them starts muttering eldritch words making black tentacles appear and rape these imposters to dead.

    In fact, they will be given a reward by the king for getting rid of those who dare speak in his name (which might result in them getting land property and a title, so that the king will actually get a tithe from them the only realistic way).

    Adventurers will be spending their money on things anyway, like food, highly expensive magical items, potions, or services from other people, and these people can be taxed.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    I wonder if Magic Items could be included as Tax Deductible. They’re self-employed..ect.
    It'd be interesting for someone to run the math.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    In practical terms, the wealth disparity between adventurers and the non-adventurer economy means that a happy compromise can be reached where your local lord demands a sum that is trivial to the adventurers but keeps his army fed for a year.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    I wouldn't be surprised if the local lord is greedy and wants more.
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    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    They always want more. Which is why they'll sell their souls to demons and devils to get the power to steal stuff. Or it's a rakshasa rajah in disguise.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    Well historically taxes were 10%. Tithe being literally 'a tenth part'.

    However this breaks down real fast in D&D.

    When we are talking 10% of your annual wheat harvest, it works well. But PC wealth quickly skyrockets to stratospheric levels compared to the rest of mundane society. Even a tenth part of PC wealth would quickly be a silly value compare to the operating budget of any mundane pursuits.

    I'm assuming here you register adventuring Parties rather than individuals since solo adventure's have a name where I'm from. "Lunch"

    A 15th level part's taxes at 10% would be 20k, which is enough cash to break the economy of a small city.
    More like small village. That will only get you 4 decent houses or 20 lousy ones. At a level when PCs are starting to affect nations.

    I've seen a DM use a 10% tax on treasure gained in big cities with very high up and powerful individuals (both in status and the power of those in their employ). Especially near a major dungeon. Alternatively you might have a sales tax
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Alternatively you might have a sales tax
    That's how they get you! PCs buy almost everything they have, whereas the average commoner makes most of their things.
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    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    That's how they get you! PCs buy almost everything they have, whereas the average commoner makes most of their things.
    Commoners tend to also not plan on owning +4 Greathammers and Adamantite Full Plate armor.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bouregard View Post
    Even better, first the local taxmaster sends the heroes out to collect some money from a few goblins in the woods, then as soon as they receive their just reward:

    "Ah thanks for taking the overdue taxes from the goblins. 100 gps and like agreed you will receive half of it."
    [party turns to leave]
    "Mhm... wait a minute. Are you registred taxpayers somewhere? No? Oh by the word of my lord you're now citizens of his realm and therefore have to pay taxes."
    [appraisecheck]
    "Now all your magic items and the gold in your pockets sums up to roundabout 150,000 gps and a tenth will go to your new rightful ruler the king"
    [Guards surround the party]
    "Do you prefer to pay in gold or platinum?"

    Bonuspoints if it is a good kingdom and a paladin (or something lawfull) in the party.
    "Let me get my reading glasses. As a Bard with +20 Diplomacy, I'm afraid my party can't accept your generous offer of naturalization, as we constantly need to travel, and furthermore cannot show any political biases for which we are not hired for. Additionally, I believe you'll find we have no taxable goods, since all our equipment is company property, and as all our proceeds are reinvested into our business we are registered as a non-profit organization."

    And then the rogue gets tired of all the talking and kills them all anyway.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bouregard View Post
    Even better, first the local taxmaster sends the heroes out to collect some money from a few goblins in the woods, then as soon as they receive their just reward:

    "Ah thanks for taking the overdue taxes from the goblins. 100 gps and like agreed you will receive half of it."
    [party turns to leave]
    "Mhm... wait a minute. Are you registred taxpayers somewhere? No? Oh by the word of my lord you're now citizens of his realm and therefore have to pay taxes."
    [appraisecheck]
    "Now all your magic items and the gold in your pockets sums up to roundabout 150,000 gps and a tenth will go to your new rightful ruler the king"
    [Guards surround the party]
    "Do you prefer to pay in gold or platinum?"

    Bonuspoints if it is a good kingdom and a paladin (or something lawfull) in the party.
    If an organization makes others, against their will, join the organization, and then extorts money out of these personnel, to provide them with "services" that they will either not be receiving, or who's cost is far out stripped by how much they are charged for these services, I wouldn't call that organization good. Wouldn't be lawful either really.

    Also, taxes tend to be on income, not amount of possessions.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by demigodus View Post
    Also, taxes tend to be on income, not amount of possessions.
    Modern days, yes, because a large amount of wealth doesn't have a physical form any more. In the psuedo-medieval fantasy world, 'possessions' and 'wealth' are more interchangeable- you can tax a man based on his gold reserves, or the number of cattle he owns, or the acres of land he farms, because those are basically the measure of how rich he is.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Wait, do adventurers even have taxable assets? They tend to have almost no liquid assets, but an incredibly large amount of solid (and very hard to liquify) assets. They don't own property (usually), and they don't have any actual jobs (unless "violent vagrant" is a job), and they usually aren't registered citizens of anywhere , so who's taxes do they pay, and what would it be based on?
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Who says adventurers aren't citizens of somewhere? All *My* characters have a homeland and family there.
    I do recall one character of mine who ended up adventuring after faking his own disappearance due to a new head tax passed by a king... so he could make the money, claim he was captured by bandits, and pay the tax without losing any property or face.
    That was an interesting backstory.

    My current barbarian is from...a barbarian tribe, where "Taxes" are feeding the tribe and killing dangerous predators.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    I actually picture adventuring in fantasy worlds as just another profession. Similar to joining the military, but a step up. Its open to almost anybody who wants to try, but is more dangerous than your typical profession.

    The upside is that adventuring for 2 months could net you more cash than 20 years of anything else. (I might be stretching things here but the idea holds up).

    So, provided you survive the experience, adventuring could set you for life.

    Its a job that needs to be filled, but has a very high mortality rate. (the PC's are heroic, even by adventuring standards, after all they are still alive!).

    Ultimately though, you gotta go with 'its a tax free career path'. Because honestly, how's this conversation going to go?

    "Hello large burly man wearing 50 lbs of metal who is proficient with more edged instruments of death and dismemberment than currently exist in the kingdom, whom with 3 friends solved problems our whole army couldn't deal with. Kindly give me some of the money you made while risking your life to solve my lieges problems."

    "Hello, master of the Eldritch arts who can speak words of power capable of calling down the wrath of heaven (Fireball, lightening bolt, earthquake for theatrics) and summons the very minions of hell from their infernal homes to do your bidding. Please don't level this city with a few well placed gestures, or turn me or my hired thugs into piles of quivering goo. Money? No I didn't want any more, I'm stupid, not crazy!"

    "Hello master of stealth, cunning, and.. hey where'd... AUUGH my kidneys!"

    And that's for a standard human party, what happens when you start mixing in some more interesting creatures? Half Dragon? Pixie? Half Celestial? I'd love to see the tax collector with the stones to try and collect from half the parties I've been in.

    Of course these are all 'goodish' party problems. Grab an evil, or even just chaotic leaning party and you are one disintegrate away from problem solved. No body, no murder charge.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    I wonder if Magic Items could be included as Tax Deductible. They’re self-employed..ect.
    It'd be interesting for someone to run the math.
    I think they count as buisness expenses. Therefore, they shouldn't be taxed.
    Note: Shouldn't, not won't
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    Of course these are all 'goodish' party problems. Grab an evil, or even just chaotic leaning party and you are one disintegrate away from problem solved. No body, no murder charge.
    And the agency that sent the tax-man is one divination spell away from learning you did it, whether they have a body or not. Heck, it's not even one of those questions that will need tricky wording, simply asking "What happened to [name]?" and then "Who killed him?" Not saying this isn't a likely-traveled route, just that the lack of body doesn't indicate lack of evidence. Or, depending on how tipsy your verse is, they have spell clocks of true res in case this happens, so you have your victim as a witness (does it still count as murder if they get better, or would that downgrade the charges to "battery with a lethal weapon").
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Not in Eberron they won't. There is lots of low-level magic, but not high-level magic stuff (except from dragons with their whole prophecy-thingy).
    At best, adventurers will be part of some agency of a nation on Khorvaire or Sarlona's Inspired, who will be the ones providing them equipment and paying for their expenses.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Low level adventurers however..they would probably be taxed. I really want a campaign based around tax evasion, but its gotta be a humorous campaign.
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    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    I'm actualy quite surprised by the responses here. Obviously, the chaotic end of the spectrum is well represented.

    Fighting-types often owe some sort of support to their liege. In a traditionally feudal system, it's either spend time in military service or buy off your responsibility.

    None of the DMs here hit their clerics and paladins up for tithes when they're in town? Especially the paladins?

    For rogues, guild dues aren't exactly optional either, until you're high enough level to be the one collecting them.


    And especially in Eberron...all those nifty dragonmarks and the players who want to have their characters have them? Responsibility to one's house is a big deal, and that includes fiscal responsibility. There's other settings where nobody cares how liked they are, but being politically and socially ostricized in Eberron, from one's own house even, is bad news.
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorax View Post
    Fighting-types often owe some sort of support to their liege. In a traditionally feudal system, it's either spend time in military service or buy off your responsibility.

    None of the DMs here hit their clerics and paladins up for tithes when they're in town? Especially the paladins?

    For rogues, guild dues aren't exactly optional either, until you're high enough level to be the one collecting them.
    D&D is constructed so that character wealth is directly part of character power. Forcing your characters to give up money in this fashion is therefore directly nerfing them, which is not an a terribly popular thing among players. Especially as a number of DMs keep their players cash-starved to start with.

    Now, if you're getting reasonable benefits for your money, it can be ok- the Cleric's church gives him and his associates free healing, the Wizard's old school does crafting for him at cost and will do some divining if he asks for it, the Rogue's guild gives you cheap access to unusual items and information gathering, etc. That's still annoying, but as long as it's useful it's basically just having a portion of your money spent in a particular category of purchases.

    But if you're essentially saddling certain classes with Class feature: You Make Less Money because you happen to believe they should be affiliated with organizations that want to take their money? Screw that. Nothing in the rules says you have to be in any such group, so I would expect to see a lot of characters with backstories explaining that they are free rogues/clerics of a cause/inspired paladins and not part of an Order and the like.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    In the Eberron setting, I've played an Artificer, who - according to Eberron sourcebooks - was the highest level Artificer in the setting (and could out-craft Merrix d'Cannith without breaking a sweat), who would regularly overpay for services, because he "had an image to maintain."

    Stuff like buying a brand-new Airship to use for a single expedition, renting the back two carts on the Lightning Rail so that no one would disturb him during the trip and paid a servant 10k gold for having suffered an accident due to the party's irresponsible handling of an artifact.

    ... but if anyone had told him to pay 10% taxes, he'd laugh in their face and tell them to take it up with House Cannith.
    After all, he was simply travelling through the Mournlands, stopping an invasion against Breland, rendering services to Jaela Daran, Speaker of the Flame, and exploring Xen'drik. No one formally hired him and anything he found was used to cover expenses and prepare for future challenges.

    (Oh, and the artifact from above, which was rendered inactive by hot flames, caused him to commit cruelty against (magic) animals, when he handed it to a bear from a Bag of Tricks and promptly Plane-shifted it to the Plane of Fire).
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    If he goes to the residence of mid-level adventurers...

    I suppose they would be like, "Come back with an army, and it better be a good one."

    And then slam the door in his face.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-04-09 at 05:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andorax View Post
    I'm actually quite surprised by the responses here. Obviously, the chaotic end of the spectrum is well represented.
    Well, I find that most people play as Neutral or some chaotic. People seem to shy away from 'Lawful Good' in case they might accidentally have to follow rules like a Paladin. That's the reason why I take "Lawful" to mean "Structured, or Orderly"

    It stands to reason that a Lawful Good Wizard would think logically and ask "Why should I pay taxes? What does the government provide in exchange? Protection? No. Shelter? No, Laws and Restrictions? Sure, but why should I pay for that?"

    The fact is adventurers get nothing from their payment to the government.
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    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    It stands to reason that a Lawful Good Wizard would think logically and ask "Why should I pay taxes? What does the government provide in exchange? Protection? No. Shelter? No, Laws and Restrictions? Sure, but why should I pay for that?"
    That actually sounds more Lawful Evil to me. A Lawful Good character would presumably be more inclined to funnel money into the local government and economy based on the services it provides to improve the lives of people who aren't able to instantly shape the world to their will. What with being good and all, you know.

    (Of course, he may also be inclined to take measures to try to ensure that it actually is run properly for such purposes, which can be just as much of a nightmare for local lords as someone who refuses to pay taxes/tributes at all - at least those guys just stay out of the way and let them enjoy their corruption and graft in peace.)

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Of course I won't dive deeper into an alignment discussion. But the point is that even when you're lawful, the taxes won't always be payed.
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    When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
    Blood~

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