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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    It makes more sense for a government to treat adventuring parties as sovereign states onto themselves than as tax-paying citizens...

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Actually, you don't penalize players for doing things, giving them a "you make less money" class feature.

    You give them accordingly MORE money, then tax them back down to the proper level.
    Whadda ya mean, Orcs got levels too?

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorax View Post
    Actually, you don't penalize players for doing things, giving them a "you make less money" class feature.

    You give them accordingly MORE money, then tax them back down to the proper level.
    That works on paper, but not in practice. Give a player a new toy, no matter how big, and they will say "Gee, that's cool I guess." But take something away, no matter how insignificant, and they will cry so loudly that people three blocks away will wonder whose two year old is having the tantrum.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That works on paper, but not in practice. Give a player a new toy, no matter how big, and they will say "Gee, that's cool I guess." But take something away, no matter how insignificant, and they will cry so loudly that people three blocks away will wonder whose two year old is having the tantrum.
    Simple solution: Present the money as being a tool that solves problems.

    IE: "Homeless man, you're going to have to pay your guild dues by climbing to the top of the Shard of T'charr and setting up this magic antenna so our listeners on the far side of the continent can hear about today's airship lacrosse results."

    "What if I paid in money?"

    "You have that!?"


    Of course, once adventurers hit high levels this becomes meaningless, but as has already been said, the idea of normal people forcing them to do things is like the idea of the Gondor sending out the DMV to stop Gandalf from riding around without a license.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    Simple solution: Present the money as being a tool that solves problems.

    IE: "Homeless man, you're going to have to pay your guild dues by climbing to the top of the Shard of T'charr and setting up this magic antenna so our listeners on the far side of the continent can hear about today's airship lacrosse results."

    "What if I paid in money?"

    "You have that!?"


    Of course, once adventurers hit high levels this becomes meaningless, but as has already been said, the idea of normal people forcing them to do things is like the idea of the Gondor sending out the DMV to stop Gandalf from riding around without a license.
    Most adventurers that I've seen would prefer the prospect of climbing to the top of the Shard of T'charr, partly for the adventure and partly because they'd rather have full say on what they spend their phat lewt on.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    I do not think many adventurers would refrain from spending their money on local affairs, especially if it is in their hometown. For our Eberron campaign, our DM gives us roleplaying advantages for having paid our taxes (and the license fees for the use of weapons, magic items and spells beyond 3rd level).

    When our party walks around the lower levels of Sharn, we are almost instantly recognized as the guys whose money makes their lives possible, feeding hndreds of homeless and orphans, keeping the citie's towers in shape and such, all the things taxes are supposed to be used for IN OUR WORLD. This fame provides us with some nifty bonuses while haggling, protection from outside aggressions (within temples and the dragonmarked houses alike) as well as food and shelter as soon as we touch what we call "home base".
    The services available improved with every heap of treasure we hauled back to Sharn. Not for long and we will be handed the keys to the city i guess *grin*
    So, yes, you can have compensation for paying taxes, but only if your DM plays along.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorax View Post
    Actually, you don't penalize players for doing things, giving them a "you make less money" class feature.

    You give them accordingly MORE money, then tax them back down to the proper level.
    And if they try to get away with not paying any taxes and keeping the extra loot then that can be an encounter/adventure in itself... one for which they have received the loot in advance
    If a tree falls in the forest and the PCs aren't around to hear it... what do I roll to see how loud it is?

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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Most adventurers that I've seen would prefer the prospect of climbing to the top of the Shard of T'charr, partly for the adventure and partly because they'd rather have full say on what they spend their phat lewt on.
    Honestly, this would likely depend on the group of players. And possibly the tone/setting of the game. Set up taxes as something you get nice benefits for, and make the costs realistic, so for the cost of a greater magic item, the PCs are getting something pretty dang awesome political pull, and a lot of groups might have one or two member willingly handling party taxes. And possibly a little extra.

    That said, I still think that if the party didn't want to pay, there really isn't much a kingdom could do to collect the money. Not short of incurring expenses in excess of the taxes they then collect.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Well, it all depends on what you get for paying taxes:
    • Reasonable Benefits: Basic healthcare at the local temples, free access to public transportation, social status/citizenship and other immateriel benefits might convince the PCs that paying taxes is worth it.
    • No benefits/advantages: Taxing the PCs for the lulz? Molon labe!

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    I guess I've just been fortunate with my playerbase then.

    Rogue who's family is a "widely" known fence in town. Some items he drops off to get cash, others for them to just "unload and get what they can from it".

    Knight who regularly provides income support to her upper-mid class mercantile family as part of her duty.

    Paladin who routinely tithes whenever able.



    My biggest loot problem with these guys isn't getting them to cough up their "fair share"...it's getting them to quit fail-searching, turning right when the treasury is left, and otherwise managing to avoid the biggest and best caches of cash each dungeon has to offer. It's maddening, I tell ya.
    Whadda ya mean, Orcs got levels too?

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andorax View Post
    My biggest loot problem with these guys isn't getting them to cough up their "fair share"...it's getting them to quit fail-searching, turning right when the treasury is left, and otherwise managing to avoid the biggest and best caches of cash each dungeon has to offer. It's maddening, I tell ya.
    You think that's bad, my players actively destroy large amounts of loot. From generous applications of sunder and disjunction to lighting buildings they know the enemies are in on fire instead of risking going inside.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Connington View Post
    Once successful, they break open chests full of archaeological treasures like piggy banks, and refuse to spend their ill-gotten gains on housing, food, or anything but weapons, armor, and magical items. They treat being reminded to eat and bathe as nuisance bookkeeping, have a statistically unlikely probability of being orphans, and regard entire species that consider them to be mortal foes as "cannon fodder".
    Classier and richer adventurers carry self-contained and self-replenishing systems for maintaining a comfortable standard of living without ever having to spend a penny over their initial investment. Who needs to buy food or dring when you have some Everlasting Rations and an Everfull mug? Who needs housing when you can carry an instant fortress in your back pocket?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    It depends of if they have a place of residence. Most adventurers probably don't, and wander from country to country. In addition, let me ask you, "Do you have to pay taxes if you find a 20$ bill on the ground?"
    Depending on the laws of the land large sums can still be taxed even if you happen to just find them.

    Anyway all this is just another illustration of how D&D economics are best considered using Bellisario's Maxim, ie not at all. Of course it works a LOT better if you don't confuse "wealth" with "gold". As has already been correctly mentioned in this thread wealth is tied to character power. Taking a large portion of WBL away significantly affects the game.

    But "wealth" is not necessarily "gold". WBL is just a rough guide to how well equipped a character should be at certain levels. However it shouldn't be interpreted as a character having X amount of coinage at level Y to spend at Ye Olde Magick Mart. D&D economics works a lot better if you don't just shower the players in coins and instead directly give them the equivalent value in magic items.

    This way a high level player can still have an appropriate wealth for their level and not be swimming in enough riches to buy out the kingdom. Any significantly valuable magic item would be treated as priceless, because no one would be able to afford to pay it's value in gold. This prevents players from being able to liquidate (as if they would) their assets into gold.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    It also works really well if you DO shower them in coins, but coins cannot ever be directly translated to powerful magical items -- ie, there are several completely separate economies going on.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cwymbran-San View Post
    I do not think many adventurers would refrain from spending their money on local affairs, especially if it is in their hometown. For our Eberron campaign, our DM gives us roleplaying advantages for having paid our taxes (and the license fees for the use of weapons, magic items and spells beyond 3rd level).

    When our party walks around the lower levels of Sharn, we are almost instantly recognized as the guys whose money makes their lives possible, feeding hndreds of homeless and orphans, keeping the citie's towers in shape and such, all the things taxes are supposed to be used for IN OUR WORLD. This fame provides us with some nifty bonuses while haggling, protection from outside aggressions (within temples and the dragonmarked houses alike) as well as food and shelter as soon as we touch what we call "home base".
    The services available improved with every heap of treasure we hauled back to Sharn. Not for long and we will be handed the keys to the city i guess *grin*
    So, yes, you can have compensation for paying taxes, but only if your DM plays along.
    Your DM gets a cookie. In my experience people tend to really easily forget that by 10th level or so the PC have done enough crazy **** to basically be legends.

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    It also works really well if you DO shower them in coins, but coins cannot ever be directly translated to powerful magical items -- ie, there are several completely separate economies going on.
    Eh not really. Doing it that way you still have the problem that the players have enough gold to buy a country with the additional problem that now they can't buy any gear.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejusu View Post
    Eh not really. Doing it that way you still have the problem that the players have enough gold to buy a country with the additional problem that now they can't buy any gear.
    Only if you think it's a problem that your characters are wealthy. Personally, I have no problem with characters having money to splash around- they can become great philanthropists, patrons of the arts, buy a largish zone of land off a broke ruler and set up a private kingdom, or just lead an incredibly extravagant life when they're not adventuring, and it's all cool. Helps ground them in the world and reduce the Murderous Hobos syndrome.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejusu View Post
    Eh not really. Doing it that way you still have the problem that the players have enough gold to buy a country with the additional problem that now they can't buy any gear.
    I'm not really seeing how a group of people that routinely kill creatures threatening an entire kingdom having kingdom levels of money is a problem. What exactly is the issue with a PC spending a large portion of their WBL on buying political status, rather then magical items of doom?

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Eberron: paying taxes?

    My idea is based off of the concepts shown here:

    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dungeon...%29/Economicon

    Yes, I know this is ON dandwiki, but it is part of Frank and K's tome, and Dandwiki happens to be one of the places that this is hosted. Also, they are restricting editing to this. Go find that book elsewhere if you dont want to move your browser to dandwiki.

    IE, just separate the reward system of magical items to maintain parity from 'gold'. Make it so magical items above a certain power level cant be bought for any amount of gold, and then just let the characters have fantastically large amounts of gold, but restrict the magical currency that they can buy magical items with.

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