Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!

[Illieas]

in real combat parlance, "disabled" is treated as good as "dead." this is for two reasons:

1) once disabled, you are more or less at your opponents mercy.
2) a disabled enemy is unable to provide support to their allies, and said allies are occupied trying to protect the disabled.

look at the fight again.

Spoiler

Show

Korra isn't just unable to bend, her arm is clearly paralyzed for a short while. Chi blocking likely isn't just a counter to benders, it can disable nonbenders as well - and the people in Avatar aren't stupid, they understand that if a Chi blocker takes your bending and stuns your legs, there's pretty much nothing stopping them from following it up with a brick to the back of the head.

again chi blocking is the equivalent of a Tazer.
It does not kill by itself. it can at most pacify for short while. what you do after you have them pacified isn't chi blocking. it is brick to heading or whatever you do to kill them.

all the death blows while restrained are still useable unrestrained so really chi-blocking is there to make it easier to a do death blow.

Relating restraining devices to killing would mean that hand cuffs kill, rope and linens kill. adhesives kill. every type of bending should be banned.
basically that the moment that the metal benders restrained the triad members they are attempting to kill them.

benders out there that can kill you. we have earth bending which has been shown to kill people (jet). we have water benders close to kill people (water icicles made by katara). fire bender kill people or maim.

You have world that allows the equivalent of gun wielders to walk around the city. and you won't let the defenseless non-bender the tazer equivalent art for self defense.

I also wonder why the police don't have a chi-blocking squad.

[Lord Raziere]

yes, and you can tazer somebody then choke them to death when they are good and stunned.

and furthermore, electricity is perfectly capable of killing someone. just up the charge. a guy can point a "tazer" at you, shoot it and you can die from an illegally modified tazer gun made to hold more volts than is "nonlethal".

similarly? there are pressure points on the body, when pressed, kill you. chi-blocking is one step away from learning real martial arts that could really kill you.

[Illieas]

yes, and you can tazer somebody then choke them to death when they are good and stunned.

and furthermore, electricity is perfectly capable of killing someone. just up the charge. a guy can point a "tazer" at you, shoot it and you can die from an illegally modified tazer gun made to hold more volts than is "nonlethal".

yes there are no non-lethal items of pacification in the real world. everything has a chance to kill. but the avatar world the use of chi blocking is shown to be completely non-lethal in all offensive and defensive applications. so fine chi blocking is a lethality free tazer.

otherwise show me in what way chi blocking has been shown to be lethal?

also changing and modifiing something can make pretty much anything be lethal. chop stick you can sharpen. linen can be used to choke. heavy objects used to bludgeon. The kill moves you throw to finish your opponent can still be done without chi blocking and none are a requirement of doing chi blocking.

[dehro]

my concern is that air benders may not create a sustainable population. in 3 cycles, who knows if there will be any. 1 war, 1 natural disaster, maybe an epidemic, and the air benders could be wiped out. 3 generations is a long time for nothing like that to happen.

the very purpose of the existence of the avatar is kind of to avoid this from happening or at least have terminal consequences... you know, balance of the elements and all that jazz

1) I haven't watched the clip because I want to see the entire episode without its content being spoiled by the clip
2) I've already read too many of the comments following so I might have kinda ruined it anyway
3)perma-shutting down bending in a world that is intensely spiritual/permeated by interaction with the spirit world, where bending is related to one's very identity, a bender's primary source of income (legal or not), and also contributes to keeping the planet's natural forces in balance, equates to being fired, subsequently raped with a cactus, one or more of your senses being burned out of you and telling a believer that santa claus doesn't exist. as crimes go, in universe, it ranks right up there with homicide and torture.
4) we know that Amon has the ability to remove bending for good, or so everybody does believe, at this point. there is no reason to believe that he's not trying to train people to have that same ability once they've mastered the simple forms of chi blocking. inoffensive police-assistance my ass.. what these people have done so far equates to using handgranades to stop a kid from drawing a penis on a wall. any police force in the world would crack down on that with extreme prejudice.
5) Amon has declared an illegal war and pretty much started bringing the casualties already. the police force know this directly from the mouth of the Avatar.
6) we're being overly politically correct here. not all police forces in every democratic country in the real world have rules like Miranda warnings and such. they certainly didn't exist in the 1920's, the closest analogue to the avatarverse's historical period... hell.. back then the United Nations didn't even exist, nor did their declaration of human rights that so heavily influences the modern rules of police activity.
it may be less "thought out" or educational, but historically speaking, a portrayal of the "swat team" as a brute squad is perfectly fitting. the fact that they are benders is purely an extra operative bonus.
7)given what they now know about Amon's plans, this police operation equates to raiding a known terrorist training facility after you have acquired solid intelligence that whatever happens on the surface is a front. the simple fact is that even if they had less solid info, what they find in there (yes, the posters are an issue, but more so is the presence of mooks who have engaged onscreen in criminal activity in the last episode) validates the operation being carried out.
8) we have explicit declarations from Amon that he wants to remove all bending and use his skills to do just that. chi blocking non lethal? so what? if you see a jihadist train in hand to hand combat, does that stop you from arresting him because he isn't, at that moment, trying to assemble a bomb?
the distinction is not that they are learning chi-blocking..its what they intend to do with it..and we know that directly from Amon: nothing Kosher

also: where the crap does this clip come from? has the 4th episode aired already? do we have that somewhere online? what is the schedule of the show, that I may know when to start looking for online episodes?

[Flickerdart]

1 & 2 aired on the 14th. 3 aired on the 21st. 4 will air on the 28th - that was just a preview clip of it.

[MLai]

Which is what Equalist supporters learning chi-blocker are to the establishment.

You're automatically equating these ppl with the label "terrorist" to make yourself feel better.

These aren't foreigners. They live in the city. They aren't career criminals or faceless evil mooks. They're ordinary people, men and women, young and old. Look at the ppl attending Amon's rally. None of them are warriors or professional thugs.

Sure you have the government on your side, but exactly how much does that say? Perhaps it's wise to listen to exactly why so many ordinary citizens have a grievance. Ofc bending MA is not the root cause of their grievances, but what widespread social injustice exists that make so many ordinary ppl attend a midnight rally when they should be asleep with their families? Why are they there?

You'll never know by unleashing elemental asskicking on civilians and proving their point.

The Police are not cracking skulls at a peaceful protest, they're raiding a training facility for Equalist soldiers. We've already seen that Chi Blockers can take on Benders. These are not "Civillians who openly sympathize", they are Amon's Followers, training to fight for him and join his cause.

Right, now they're soldiers.

These are ordinary ppl who live in the city. In just 1 secret invite-only rally, thousands show up. If this was a public lawful rally, 5x that number would probably show up. That is A LOT OF ppl from one early industrial city.

This may be a cartoon but ordinary ppl don't just suddenly turn "evil." They're not magically brainwashed. Something is brewing in this city and overpowering police crackdowns are not going to solve it. I don't care how lawful the crackdowns are.

So far, Korra isn't even thinking about any of this. She not asking "Why are ordinary ppl doing this?" even once. All she is thinking is "Ooh ooh I'm gonna challenge Amon to 1-on-1 combat!!!" But she's a teenager who hasn't yet touched her past lives, so I don't expect much from her. I don't consider her the Avatar right now; being able to bend multiple elements isn't what makes you the Avatar.

It does not kill by itself. it can at most pacify for short while. what you do after you have them pacified isn't chi blocking. it is brick to heading or whatever you do to kill them.

Exactly.

Basically all benders are allowed to learn MA which can be lethal (genre-savvy refutes are completely irrelevant here), but nonbenders are forbidden to learn their own MA (which are nonlethal and temporary) because it makes them "terrorists". Ofc they train in secret; look at what the police do to them for just training.

That's how it will look to the city.

[dehro]

Basically all benders are allowed to learn MA which can be lethal (genre-savvy refutes are completely irrelevant here), but nonbenders are forbidden to learn their own MA (which are nonlethal and temporary) because it makes them "terrorists". Ofc they train in secret; look at what the police do to them for just training.

everybody is allowed to train in soft-air or just have it as a hobby. when you're doing it in secret and with the explicit intent to learn skills that you'll be using to organize a military coup, police have every reason to crack down on you, whether what you're doing at that stage is legal or not. whether they have the "legal right" to do so, is irrelevant. this is not an episode of law and order, this is a cartoon set in a world that is comparable to 1920's real world. the finer points of legality may not be what they are aiming to portray. and yes, they become soldiers if they're training explicitly to go to war, whether they're old people or kids and women is immaterial. female suicide bombers are a real thing now.

That's how it will look to the city.

yes, very important point right there.. it's very likely that Amon intends to use this in a political way. we already know from what little we have seen that this time around, the big baddie is sneaky, political and much more revolving around concepts of social identity and morale. we also know that Korra, despite her aptitude for bending has to grow up a lot. since the show is about her, it's very likely that as she grows through the season, she will start to see things from the "oppressed" point of view too, and grow confused, uncertain on how to proceed and whether she's fighting for the right cause and in the right manner. the burden of what is the right decision to make as an Avatar is pretty much what the show is all about. I do believe she will grow more sympathetic towards the non benders in time..and this will make the show all the more interesting.
for this to happen, episodes like this one, whether staged by Amon (by training his mooks together with people who are ultimately less suited to actual effective employement in battle) or a natural consequence of..mounting barricades between different factions, are necessary.

[Brother Oni]

Bending also makes up at substantial portion of the normal population and of course the criminal element. As chi-blocking is one of the only effective ways to counter all benders it restriction for use in self defense is inescapably discriminatory towards all non-benders.

Further to other replies and your argument below, I concede that we don't have enough information about the legality of chi-blocking to make a judgement.

Also your comparison is rather invalid. Chi-blocking is thus far effective without being lethal or permanent. Actually that's its only known for sure application I believe. We don't actually know that it can be used any more lethally then choking someone the old fashioned way. Guns broadly speaking cannot be used except lethally. (No not even warning shots those are inherently dangerous from ricochet or over-penetration)

I was focusing more on the intent rather than the actual application here.

While firearms have a number of legitimate uses, owning armour piercing ammunition doesn't. Similarly, learning self defence is perfectly reasonable, but not learning something that's specifically aimed at countering police defences.

As Seraph said, chi-blocking can easily be followed up with a brick to the head, or simply turned into a lethal art by hitting different pressure points - you're stopping somebody's magic kung fu, how hard can it be to stop someone's heart in comparison?

again chi blocking is the equivalent of a Tazer.
It does not kill by itself. it can at most pacify for short while. what you do after you have them pacified isn't chi blocking. it is brick to heading or whatever you do to kill them.

As Lord Raziere pointed out, it's perfectly possible to kill someone with a tazer.

While you can't restrict people learning how to bend (the cultural and historical inertia behind it, not to mention it's inherent to people), you can restrict people learning how to stop bending, or at least keep them well monitored.

It's also a bit of fallacy to call chi blocking non-lethal when it incapacitates an opponent, allowing you to kill or capture them at your leisure. It's like saying laser sights on a gun are non lethal, but when you consider that it facilitates you getting the lethal part to hit, it's not so harmless.

You're automatically equating these ppl with the label "terrorist" to make yourself feel better.

May I suggest that you're forgetting your earlier assumption of Republic City having the same freedom of speech rights as the US?

For all we know, they could have the same hate speech laws in the UK, and since Amon has pretty much broken those by any definition (even before his demonstration of blocking benders), they're followers of a known criminal.
Even other places have different freedom of speech laws - your profile says you're in Singapore - could you imagine the Westboro Baptist Church trying its antics there?

Whether Amon's officially declared a terrorist rather than a criminal or a 'person of interest to the state' is a political and legal decision. There's insufficient information and probably far beyond the scope of the series to determine whether Republic City has laws regarding terrorism and the differentiation between it and simple criminality.

[Xondoure]

You're automatically equating these ppl with the label "terrorist" to make yourself feel better.

These aren't foreigners. They live in the city. They aren't career criminals or faceless evil mooks. They're ordinary people, men and women, young and old. Look at the ppl attending Amon's rally. None of them are warriors or professional thugs.

As you are using the label "terrorist" to imply that there is such a thing which looses the right to the label "human." Simple fact is everyone is people. In a perfect world we would all be treated with respect and dignity and one would not have force acted against oneself unless forced to (which would never happen, because perfect world for certain values of those terms.)

These aren't foreigners but they are training to use force actively against other members of the city they live in. You can't make the call as to whether they are being compensated for their assistance but I hardly see why that matters. And besides the benefits of not breathing dangerous gasses those masks comfortably give them both anonymity from others as well as part of their own personal accountability. That pretty much defines them as faceless mooks. I'm not saying it's pretty, or that these people deserve being flash frozen. But this is not a peaceful conflict, and I think they understand that given their training.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The Protester was BEFORE the Revelation, AKA when the Equalists kidnapped people, dragged them onto the stage, and then Amon took away their bending, then declared his intent to do that to every bender in the city. AFTER the Revelation the Equalists may have gone from a suspicious political group to a full-scale underground rebellion. After the events of the Revelation, the city may very well have declared the Equalists an illegal group.

Exactly we need the full context here. How sympathetic are the Equalists going to be portrayed. Obviously Amon is a scary guy but that doesn't make him wrong for example.

And even putting aside the sympathy question there's a very legit question of how much support Amon has in the public and what how the as yet unmet council will react. At least one has a few "obvious villain" tags on him though the creators may be just wanting us to think that. Sufficient 'soft power' in Republic City could easily prevent a serious crackdown on the Equalists.

It would be very well much within political tropes to have even reasonably honest politicians not stage a major crackdown on a popular simply for kidnapping and assaulting some gangsters. After all that could be playing right into Amon's hands and increase his support in a Robin Hood manner. Too risky, or alternately is the case.

His rhetoric against benders is an even shakier ground to move against him on. Especially given that the setting is allowed its own values dissonance from modern times.

We will have to wait and see, I fully anticipate that the creators intend for there to be some legit grey areas. I don't exactly expect Federation vs Zeon levels of mutual bastardry, but I think we will have some completely legit complaints about benders detailed over time.

As for Amon's "Robin Hood" deed, the fact that his victims were criminals does not justify it in the eyes of the Law. You would be hard pressed to find a court that accepts "They had it coming" as a defense.

It might never see a court room. Really unless the gangsters (or a third party also present) are in protective custody and willing to testify its an incredibly weak case for any kind of charges being brought. Add a cautious city council and you might find the cops are ordered to investigate other matters or not move in yet until there's a rock-solid case that can go beyond possibly discreditable witnesses.

And would the public justify a broad crackdown against Equalists for a case that holds their own sympathies, the mob is not always interested in technical rule of law.

So far we've seen Amon Kidnap people (Not innocent people perhaps (Except Bolin, who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time), but people), forcibly remove their bending (If it's not a crime already, you can bet the city council will make it one as soon as they hear about it), and then declare war on the Bending population of the city. What does he have to do before you accept that the city has a right to outlaw his organization and prosecute his followers?
Right to Free Speech does not equal a Right to Rebellion.

And our witnesses to this? The gangsters who did not escape the rally, Bolin, and those here to rescue them. All young and easily manipulated on the stand (except Mako)

Defense attorney eats it raw and discredits the whole thing as a clear case of police/bender discrimination lead by an oppressive Avatar.

The rest isn't nearly specific enough to even begin to make a case for and would be verging on a legit case of harassment. Talking about what can be construed by your opponents as something is not the same as doing it.

Heck Amon might even argue Ain't No Rule for his UnBending then add some rallies and it can't become a rule

And these are not "Civillians learning self-defense", they are insurgents in training! All the evidence points to them being insurgents in training! We don't see them say "Man, I love Amon! I can't wait to go and beat up benders while overthrowing the government!", but do we need to? Yes, there is a possibility that they just want to protect themselves, but we have no evidence to back that up. We DO have evidence that they are Amon's soldiers in training, as evidenced by the giant posters of Amon and the fact that they are being trained by his soldiers. It's not 100% conclusive, but come on.

Which we technically don't know from the clip.

I agree that the show is going to take a shades-of-grey approach. But you people seem to see those shades before they've actually shown up. You're so impatient that you're inferring potential interpretations, then taking them as the truth.

I'm merely illustrating where I think the ice is thinning already for stirring up fascinating discussion.

The show won't be entirely out of grey area's here until they display an overt and open chi-blocker. Best as unrelated to the Equalists but possible as only tangential to them.

also: where the crap does this clip come from? has the 4th episode aired already? do we have that somewhere online? what is the schedule of the show, that I may know when to start looking for online episodes?

http://www.nick.com/shows/legend-of-korra/

Has it and is (thus far) a good place to catch episodes completely legally online.

Also just remembered from there that Tarrlok is on the city council. Color me extra suspicous that the upcoming raid isn't on the up and up with all the grey that will imply.

I was focusing more on the intent rather than the actual application here.

While firearms have a number of legitimate uses, owning armour piercing ammunition doesn't. Similarly, learning self defence is perfectly reasonable, but not learning something that's specifically aimed at countering police defences.

Fire arms have precisely one use: Killing. Everything else is context.

Also you are flat wrong that armor piercing ammo is not legal. It took me under a minute to locate some .50cal AP for sale. Now while true it is not available everywhere I will provide the specifics:

This ammo is restricted in the following cities and/or states: All of Alaska; All of CA; All of HI; All of IL; All of MA; NYC , NY; Bronx, NY; Brooklyn, NY; Manhattan, NY; Staten Island, NY; Queens, NY; Washington D.C., APO & FPO Addresses, No PO boxes.

Which still leaves the vast majority of the USA open. And not like .50 cal rounds needs to be specialize, a normal one will punch through a half inch of steel. I can pull up some links to buy the rifles if you'd like.

As BRC said, chi-blocking can easily be followed up with a brick to the head, or simply turned into a lethal art by hitting different pressure points - you're stopping somebody's magic kung fu, how hard can it be to stop someone's heart in comparison?

As opposed to being blasted by magic kung fu first pretty damn hard. It must be remembered chi-blocking is not better then bending, merely a more effective way then without it. Since if you accomplish the not inconsequential task of getting into melee with a bender it allows you to then and only then nullify that advantage. This does not change that a bender still has plenty of opportunity rip the ground out from under you or fireball your face at ten paces.

Your entire premise is backward because you are trying to establish chi-blocking as a greater threat then bending which is patently untrue.

[Brother Oni]

Also you are flat wrong that armor piercing ammo is not legal. It took me under a minute to locate some .50cal AP for sale.

Now compare this to the UK or Japan where private gun ownership is completely different and owning AP ammo IS completely illegal.

I'm not familiar with US laws, so I can only go by what I know, but even then you provide evidence that certain states find owning AP ammo illegal.

As opposed to being blasted by magic kung fu first pretty damn hard.

I was comparing stopping somebody's heart to stopping somebody's magic kung fu via pressure points, not chi-blocking versus bending.

Your entire premise is backward because you are trying to establish chi-blocking as a greater threat then bending which is patently untrue.

I'm acutally trying to establish chi-blocking as a viable threat to benders, which by extension, includes significant parts of law enforcement.
It's this threat to LEOs that's the issue in determining the potential legality of chi-blocking.

Is a bender more dangerous than an equally trained chi-blocker? Most definitely.
Are chi blockers a threat to benders? From how they handled Mako and Korra, also most definitely.

[MLai]

everybody is allowed to train in soft-air or just have it as a hobby. when you're doing it in secret and with the explicit intent to learn skills that you'll be using to organize a military coup, police have every reason to crack down on you, whether what you're doing at that stage is legal or not.

These aren't foreigners but they are training to use force actively against other members of the city they live in.

You're making a big assumption that anyone who goes to those secret dojos are automatically attempting to overthrow the city government. It's not even a logical assumption because a situation has to be dire before ordinary city-folk with families are going to risk their lives to attempt a violent uprising.
For all we know, these are mostly folks with ignorant fears, and Amon's ppl tell them "You like how Amon dealt with those gangsters the police doesn't do anything about? Train with us in our dojos we can show you how to protect yourself and your families against bender criminals." That's it.

yes, very important point right there.. it's very likely that Amon intends to use this in a political way.

And the Republic City government's response is quite typical of a banana republic in the 1920's. So... assuming I'm not looking at things thru the lens of a cartoon (large slab of rock crushing someone against a wall does not kill him or break every rib in his body, suffocating and freezing an unarmed civilian in a solid block of ice is okay), why should I feel sympathetic towards such a regime?

As Seraph said, chi-blocking can easily be followed up with a brick to the head, or simply turned into a lethal art by hitting different pressure points - you're stopping somebody's magic kung fu, how hard can it be to stop someone's heart in comparison?

How is that any different from Fire, Earth, and Water? Yet even children are allowed to learn and use bending, as long as you have the bending gene.
IRL, a person like Amon would be using this for perfect free PR. It completely backs up all the class warfare rhetoric he's spouting.

May I suggest that you're forgetting your earlier assumption of Republic City having the same freedom of speech rights as the US?

Based on the police action, I can say it definitely isn't a reflection of modern USA. Like I said, whoever's in charge is making banana republic policies. In which case I'm not inclined to see the authorities as good guys.

And would the public justify a broad crackdown against Equalists for a case that holds their own sympathies, the mob is not always interested in technical rule of law.

Agreed. I would even propose that legal technicalities are the refuge of the wicked and the privileged. I know this is my IRL bias seeping in, but I'm not willing to give those-in-power the first pass at moral superiority in any situation. Whether or not the protag is sided with them is irrelevant.

Are chi blockers a threat to benders? From how they handled Mako and Korra, also most definitely.

Are benders a threat to benders? Most definitely. But... children can learn and use bending in public, why?
Banning chi-blocking as another MA discipline has absolutely no legs to stand on. It doesn't matter that right now the most famous chi-blocker in the city is Amon. Arrest Amon for kidnapping and assault, fine. Doesn't mean you can crackdown on dojos for teaching chi-blocking.
Ofc, that's not why that dojo was attacked by the SWAT. But the Equalists can sure make it look that way.

[Brother Oni]

And the Republic City government's response is quite typical of a banana republic in the 1920's.

It's a bit of a stretch to draw that conclusion just yet, all on the basis of a few minute clip that's more focused on bender SWAT team tactics.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that we shouldn't jump to conclusions until we've actually seen the episode and have more context for the raid.

How is that any different from Fire, Earth, and Water? Yet even children are allowed to learn and use bending, as long as you have the bending gene.

As I mentioned earlier, social, cultural and historical inertia. It's why people still club seals to death in Norway and Greenland.

For all we know, advance on another 50 years and bending could be as well regulated as chi-blocking.

Based on the police action, I can say it definitely isn't a reflection of modern USA. Like I said, whoever's in charge is making banana republic policies. In which case I'm not inclined to see the authorities as good guys.

Any police raid would look frightening with minimal context. Take for example the 1980 Iranian Embassy siege - I believe they accidentally killed a terrorist with the breaching charges they set in the wall.
If you had only seen a video of the raid and not the previous 5 days of the siege or not known that the terrorists had started shooting hostages, you'd think the same thing about the British government.

Banning chi-blocking as another MA discipline has absolutely no legs to stand on.

I'd argue that it's most definitely something to monitor and regulate at the very least, due to the threat it has towards RC police officers.

Ofc, that's not why that dojo was attacked by the SWAT. But the Equalists can sure make it look that way.

Most certainly - I can see it being used for propoganda purposes easily.

As an aside, could you list who's post you're replying to? It gets a bit difficult when we're all doing multi-post replies.


--

Edit:

Thinking about the social and cultural situation a bit more, we may all be jumping to conclusions that just because Republic City looks more modern than the first series, their social development is as advanced as today's.

Less than 100 years ago, the main nations were not too far removed from a feudal monarchy, so what Amon is doing now is similar to the suffragette movement or the various US civil rights movements back in the 1960s.

You only have to look at later 19th/early 20th century China and Japan to see what happen when less socially advanced nations get dragged kicking and screaming into advancing by 'modernised' ones.

I'm not condoning Amon's actions, but I appreciate his cause (which is most probably a smoke screen for something else ).

[Kd7sov]

Because it would work. Ice formed through compression (molecular compression) is still composed of water, that has a boiling/condensation and melting/freezing point. Heating it would cause it to start reverting back to water quickly if it wasn't below freezing.

However, the ice would have formed at the same temperature the water was, so in that instance (as it was pulled from the Antarctic waters and thus below freezing) it would behave as normal ice would, though the salt content might make it melt quicker.

As for support, to freeze the amount of water in the scene (or any equivalent showing of waterbending, ever) by lowering it's ambient temperature, the room would have to shoot up 70-80 degrees in seconds (Law of Thermodynamics, the energy has to go somewhere), making the room fill with a dense, hot, fog, as the hot air immediately contacts the water. It does not, ever, thus the ice cannot be made through normal freezing processes.

Well, if you're going to bring in thermodynamics, that lets me do two things. First, ask you where the energy to move the water/rock/what have you comes from. Motion is energy, and energy (by our current understanding) cannot be created or destroyed.

And second, it lets me note that water is (compared to air) very difficult to compress. And if you do compress it, you get high-density water, not lower-density ice.

[Morty]

The discussion about the police raid on the chi-blockers doesn't have much point, I think. We have no context, so everyone involved seems to have filled in the blanks with their own preconcieved notions about the Equalist movement. Still, it does suggest the possibility of something pretty ugly.

[Infernally Clay]

Sometimes I think people overthink a children's cartoon.

[dehro]

Are benders a threat to benders? Most definitely. But... children can learn and use bending in public, why?

because they're born with it and might as well learn to control it. you're not born with chi-blocking..you only learn that if you have cause to defend yourself from benders or want to assault one.
seriously, these are not comparable situations.

it seems to me that most people who argue in favour of the idea that the raid is police brutality on harmless civilians seem to think about this solely through the mindset of a 2012 citizen of a nation where the police has to have several authorisations and written warrants to even lift a finger on anyone. this is not the case in most part of the world and certainly wasn't so in a...quite recent past even where it is so today.
firstly, we simply don't know enough about the situation prior to the raid... second, yes, it is entirely possible that there's some hothead with an iron fist in the police, who thinks that shoot first, sort the bodies out later is the correct approach to stamp out menaces to democracy...and that this will cause Korra to reconsider her priorities and role. I've said this before..this is Korra's tale of growt and fullfillment of her role. last time around the bad guy was clearly identified.. this time it is less so and this is evident in the fact that Korra is rather uneducated and lacking in streetsmarts and social identity. that's going to be a journey as much as learning to bend what she can't bend yet is one. for this to be a challenging journey, moral ambiguity and uncertainty is pretty much a necessary situation.
that said, we really shouldn't try to read in-universe social commentary on the back of 3 episodes and a bit.

[John Cribati]

You're making a big assumption that anyone who goes to those secret dojos are automatically attempting to overthrow the city government. It's not even a logical assumption because a situation has to be dire before ordinary city-folk with families are going to risk their lives to attempt a violent uprising.
For all we know, these are mostly folks with ignorant fears, and Amon's ppl tell them "You like how Amon dealt with those gangsters the police doesn't do anything about? Train with us in our dojos we can show you how to protect yourself and your families against bender criminals." That's it.

That. Does. Not. Matter. According to Tarrlock's source, this is a secret dojo affiliated with a Terrorist. Anyone and everyone in there is a terrorist-in-training to them, and had to be subdued by any means necessary. And again, We've seen people take hits like that before and come off no worse for wear (Zuko was in a ship that exploded and he came out of it looking like he'd just been in a rather nasty bar fight), so this may have been harsh, but not lethal.

[pffh]

Not to mention that right now Amon has admitted to be a traitor to the state and thus he and his followers have renounced all legal protection.

[MLai]

I agree with Brother Oni that currently we have no context for the SWAT action based on just an action clip, so what I'm about to respond to is only within the context of this thread's discussion.

DEHRO: because they're born with it and might as well learn to control it. you're not born with chi-blocking..you only learn that if you have cause to defend yourself from benders or want to assault one.

You are born with fists and feet and you can curbstomp someone's skull in, without bending. Martial Arts trains you to channel that energy and learn self-discipline and self-defense. It teaches you how to resist with minimal force.

people who argue in favour of the idea that the raid is police brutality on harmless civilians seem to think about this solely through the mindset of a 2012 citizen of a nation where the police has to have several authorisations and written warrants to even lift a finger on anyone. this is not the case in most part of the world and certainly wasn't so in a...quite recent past

Exactly why I refuse to automatically equate "Authority" with "Good Guys", and "Rebels" with "Terrorists". Amon's no Gandhi, but so far the authorities have done nothing to earn my good will/ trust.

Ofc this being a Nick cartoon, the authorities are the good guys and Amon's the villain, even though this series sports a surprising depth. But that doesn't mean I have to assume it in a discussion.

HERPESTIDAE: That. Does. Not. Matter. According to Tarrlock's source, this is a secret dojo affiliated with a Terrorist. Anyone and everyone in there is a terrorist-in-training to them, and had to be subdued by any means necessary.

Are you listening to yourself?

And again, We've seen people take hits like that before and come off no worse for wear

1. The ppl taking those hits are benders. They have the knowledge and power to roll with the elemental punches.
2. This is a cartoon but I don't have to assume cartoon results in a discussion. Genre-savviness is irrelevant to the discussion on principles/ morals/ ideology.

PFFH: Not to mention that right now Amon has admitted to be a traitor to the state

How so? He's against bending. So benders = "the state"?
And, so far the state has done nothing to show me it's in the right. I'm not just talking about the SWAT action. I'm talking about the fact that so many ordinary citizens are unhappy with the current status quo. Something is wrong with this city.

And I don't think that is just irrelevant conjecture outside the scope of this cartoon. I do think that eventually, the writers will have to address why so many ordinary citizens are restless, without any magical brainwashing in play.

[Reverent-One]

2. This is a cartoon but I don't have to assume cartoon results in a discussion. Genre-savviness is irrelevant to the discussion on principles/ morals/ ideology.

Yes, you do, because you're judging the actions of the characters in-universe. If they know it won't result in the sorts of injuries you're referring to, then you don't have a leg to stand on.

[BRC]

Exactly why I refuse to automatically equate "Authority" with "Good Guys", and "Rebels" with "Terrorists". Amon's no Gandhi, but so far the authorities have done nothing to earn my good will/ trust.

The question of is Amon is right is separate from the question of if the Police are within their rights to stop him.

Ofc this being a Nick cartoon, the authorities are the good guys and Amon's the villain, even though this series sports a surprising depth. But that doesn't mean I have to assume it in a discussion.

It also dosn't mean we have to assume your viewpoint. You're speaking in terms of absolutes rather than hypothetical, you're not saying "Wait, what if
Amon is the good guy". You're saying he IS the good guy, and you're putting the burden of proof on us.

How so? He's against bending. So benders = "the state"?
And, so far the state has done nothing to show me it's in the right. I'm not just talking about the SWAT action. I'm talking about the fact that so many ordinary citizens are unhappy with the current status quo. Something is wrong with this city.

And I don't think that is just irrelevant conjecture outside the scope of this cartoon. I do think that eventually, the writers will have to address why so many ordinary citizens are restless, without any magical brainwashing in play.

Benders are citizens of the State, and therefore under it's protection.

As for the Status Quo, I agree that the status quo is messed up. I don't think you could have a society with Benders and Non-Benders that dosn't have some inequality between the two.

However, that doesn't mean the answer is a violent uprising.
As for "So Many Ordinary Citizens", we've seen one rally. A couple hundred people maybe, in a city of tens of thousands.

[John Cribati]

{{scrubbed}}

[Grey_Wolf_c]

{{scrubbed}}

I've been merely scanning the thread since I don't want spoilers, so I've no idea of the context, but isn't this Godwin's Law?

GW

[John Cribati]

I've been merely scanning the thread since I don't want spoilers, so I've no idea of the context, but isn't this Godwin's Law?

GW

I suppose, but we were discussing terrorism for a fair bit.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Now compare this to the UK or Japan where private gun ownership is completely different and owning AP ammo IS completely illegal.

I'm not familiar with US laws, so I can only go by what I know, but even then you provide evidence that certain states find owning AP ammo illegal.

Yes but you can't argue that something must be so when it demonstrably is not universal. That makes the position a subjective political one base upon a particular country.... none of which is Republic City.

I'm acutally trying to establish chi-blocking as a viable threat to benders, which by extension, includes significant parts of law enforcement.
It's this threat to LEOs that's the issue in determining the potential legality of chi-blocking.

The short version: No.

The long version: No. That's. What. You. Say.

The at length version: No its not, you are merely supposing a subjective reasoning (that is inherently a political position) as if it was universal fact. Unless it is detailed in universe as the reasoning it means nothing. Finally in reference to chi-blocking... that reasoning being the case does not change that it is an unfair and anti-normal measure.

Because the presence of organized crime alone already gives the lie to the notion that the police force is able to protect everyone. They cannot, and should not reasonably be expected too. However at the same time people have some right to self-defense and when you have a patently unequal situation restricting a trainable counter-balance to this is still discriminatory to all normals. Because it is demanding they be at the mercy of a small minority should that minority choose to exercise their greater powers

Chi-blocking cannot be illegal in its own right and it being so directly supports the Equalist's claims. So the show won't leave grey areas until it specifies there is no problem with the practice, preferably from non-affiliated or allied chi-blockers.

[t209]

I think we shouldn't bring up politics on this forum.
I know you are using comparison but I'm being concerned about the rules. I think Korra have to

Spoiler

Show

relearned her bending skills all over again. Since there are elemental chapters in Avatar.

[Brother Oni]

Yes but you can't argue that something must be so when it demonstrably is not universal. That makes the position a subjective political one base upon a particular country.... none of which is Republic City.

You're wandering off topic.

I'm saying that chi blocking as a subset of martial arts should be regulated or monitored due to its specific targeting against benders and hence the law enforcement officers.

The comparison I'm trying to make is that AP ammunition as a subset of firearms should be regulated or monitored due to its specific nature of penetrating kevlar vests, which are mostly worn by law enforcement officers.

If you think that's a subjective view with little to no merit, despite the fact that it's at illegal in at least 2.5 countries... *Shrug*
I have no idea what you'd consider an objective view then.

The short version: No.

Hang on, are you saying that chi blocking is not a threat to benders? Did you watch the third episode, where one of Amon's men disabled the Avatar, the supposed pinnacle of the bending art, in a pretty much fair fight?

If it's not a threat, then I agree with you that it shouldn't be illegal. However from what I saw in the episode, if it wasn't for Naga, we'd probably be watching the next episode about the monks searching for a new earth bender Avatar.

[Silverraptor]

Sometimes I think people overthink a children's cartoon.

There's nothing else to do while we wait for the next episode to come out, so SILENCE YOU!

[dehro]

You are born with fists and feet and you can curbstomp someone's skull in, without bending. Martial Arts trains you to channel that energy and learn self-discipline and self-defense. It teaches you how to resist with minimal force.

yeah..no, it doesn't work like that. you're just trying to talk your way out of this one through nonsense. bending is an art that needs training to be controlled.. look at what Katara does in the first ever episode. she starts bending water and doesn't even notice it, to the point that she strikes the iceberg behind her, freeing Aang from his slumber. again, she didn't notice she was doing it. a bender that doesn't know or notice what he's doing and happens to be a sleepwalker or just have a temper may do untold damage whether he wants to or not. Being a bender means you HAVE to train in order not to hurt people randomly. being a non bender means you're far less likely to accidentally put someone on fire or freeze him or burry him in sand. that wasn't even my point anyway. I wasn't talking about generic martial arts but about Chi blocking which has only one application that we know of, which is fighting benders. more relevant is the fact that I was commenting on the context. one can learn chi-bending if he is a cop who must fight bending thugs, if one wants to because he likes practicing and bragging rights and so on.. but if one does it in an establishment run by criminals, being taught by criminals and within the context of preparing for an announced battle, then what he does assumes an entirely different meaning. yes, there may have been a few innocent people who just wanted to learn chi-bending because it sounded like a cool idea or for self defence, but it's likely that several of them actually had a very different purpose

Exactly why I refuse to automatically equate "Authority" with "Good Guys", and "Rebels" with "Terrorists". Amon's no Gandhi, but so far the authorities have done nothing to earn my good will/ trust.

fair enough..but Amon is the one who has basically declared he is a bad guy, because he plans to take out benders and bending altogether. we've actually seen him do it in definitely illegal manners. that makes him a de facto bad guy and makes it most likely that those that oppose him are the good guys by default. things may vary on that score, and only future episodes will tell..but so far, sorry, I'm siding with the cops.

1. The ppl taking those hits are benders. They have the knowledge and power to roll with the elemental punches.

bollocks. sokka has fallen and crashed in enough trees, rocks, ledges, ravines that he should have broken every bone in his body several times over, not just his arm once in the final episode. and the same is true for..well..plenty of people that are patently not benders

How so? He's against bending. So benders = "the state"?
And, so far the state has done nothing to show me it's in the right. I'm not just talking about the SWAT action. I'm talking about the fact that so many ordinary citizens are unhappy with the current status quo. Something is wrong with this city.

And I don't think that is just irrelevant conjecture outside the scope of this cartoon. I do think that eventually, the writers will have to address why so many ordinary citizens are restless, without any magical brainwashing in play.

I don't know about the state, but if you declare war through acts of something that closely resembles terrorism against a part of society..be it a religion, a race, a social class..well..that does sound like a menace against national security, if I ever saw one. it's how half the civil wars of the last 2000 years have started.
as for the "so many".. I'm sorry..but we've seen a bunch of people on the speakers corner in the park, and maybe a few hunderd collected at Amon's rally.
by the skyline of the city, I'd say that the city has probably at least a few tens of thousands of inhabitants...I'm sure that a large portion of those are unhappy and could have a better life.. but how many of those really have it in for the benders?
we know from other scenes that there is diseguality and poverty and that people are not really happy... but nobody except Amon and his henchmen has said that the blame for that lies on benders... so until we see different, I would assume that the situation, so far, is pretty clear cut, Amon and his people are bad men and need capturing by the cops for their actions.
I hope that this clear cut situation will change and become grey-er over time, because it would make for interesting watching, but we shouldn't jump the gun and speak in absolutes when we don't really have any proof that that's what's going to happen.