Exalted: Eclipse Caste Help

[TimeWizard]

I've just started playing Exalted, and it's awesome, but I've never played any White Wolf stuff so I need some help.

I joined in media res about six games in, to a party that has a Dawn, Zenith, Twilight, and Night caste. They have combat pretty locked down, but no social skills so I jumped right to Eclipse, the "bard" of Exalted.

I'm trying out a noncombat character, because the idea really appeals to me and frankly the team has an overabundance of fighters. So I've made a character who is basically a combination of the Counte of Monte Christo and Niccolo Machiavelli. Ruthless, Manipulative, Driven... the whole nine yards. Here's a summary: 5 points in Bureaucracy, Linguistics, Socialize, and Presence, with a few points in Awareness, Investigate, and Integrity; Lastly, one point in Martial Arts. This is so that if/when I get attacked I can defend myself until I can get aid, but I don't know if that really works in Exalted. Would it be better to put in Thrown?

I have a Dex of three, Str 1, Stam 2 if that helps.

[TheCountAlucard]

I've just started playing Exalted, and it's awesome, but I've never played any White Wolf stuff so I need some help.

Sure thing!

They have combat pretty locked down, but no social skills so I jumped right to Eclipse, the "bard" of Exalted.

I'm curious, what did you intend with this?

I'm trying out a noncombat character, because the idea really appeals to me and frankly the team has an overabundance of fighters.

Okay.

So I've made a character who is basically a combination of the Counte of Monte Christo and Niccolo Machiavelli. Ruthless, Manipulative, Driven... the whole nine yards.

Sounds good...

Here's a summary: 5 points in Bureaucracy, Linguistics, Socialize, and Presence, with a few points in Awareness, Investigate, and Integrity; Lastly, one point in Martial Arts.

Hm... frankly, if you intend to not do combat, I'd recommend Dodge instead, and get enough for Leaping Dodge Method.

This is so that if/when I get attacked I can defend myself until I can get aid, but I don't know if that really works in Exalted. Would it be better to put in Thrown?

Thrown is almost entirely offensive; MA's part offensive, part defensive, but defenses from various martial arts styles are generally going to be subpar to, say, Melee, Dodge, or Resistance Charms.

I have a Dex of three, Str 1, Stam 2 if that helps.

Sounds like you could hold off an angry farmer or two, but proper combatants (let alone supernatural ones) are going to be problematic without you investing in some defensive Charms.

[TimeWizard]

Thanks for the quick reply. No disrespect to the bards, I quotationed that to imply I understood the loose analogy of the social role, party face. Thanks for the tip on thrown, as ideally I'm convincing others to fight for me* or ignore me. I'll bring Dodge to 3 for Leaping Dodge Method. I'm thinking of Reflex Sidestep Technique and/or Seven Shadows Evasion.

Now can you explain the four flaws of invulnerability? I have a 4 Temperance and a 3 Conviction (or maybe the other way around, I don't have my sheet on me)




*(I can't help imaging using Unbreakable Fascination Method while thinking of Fluttershy shouting "LOVE ME!")

[Teln]

How's your Willpower doing? It's the HP of social combat, so you want that as high as you think you can get away with.

[TheCountAlucard]

Thanks for the quick reply. No disrespect to the bards, I quotationed that to imply I understood the loose analogy of the social role, party face.

Oh, okay.

Well, to put it plainly, it's less "face," and more "diplomat." Still, the analogy works well enough, I guess.

Thanks for the tip on thrown, as ideally I'm convincing others to fight for me* or ignore me. I'll bring Dodge to 3 for Leaping Dodge Method. I'm thinking of Reflex Sidestep Technique and/or Seven Shadows Evasion.

I'd get those as well, if for no other reason than being able to get away from particularly nasty attacks.

Now can you explain the four flaws of invulnerability?

Sure! When you get a perfect defense, you pick one of the Flaws of Invulnerability. Said Flaw does not have to be tied in with one of your Virtues, by the way; you can be Valor 1 and have the Valor Flaw, or be Conviction 5 and have the Temperance Flaw. However, you can only have two different FoI's between all your perfects.

I have a 4 Temperance and a 3 Conviction (or maybe the other way around, I don't have my sheet on me)...

Temperance might not be the best choice for you; remember that you have to fail a Temperance roll for intentionally lying if your Temperance is rated at 3 or higher.

[TimeWizard]

My current Willpower as a new made character is 7, not counting the unspent xp I have at my disposal.

I didn't know that about Temperence, it sounds almost counter-intuitive. Cold hearted badasses can't lie as well as raging alcoholic thugs? weird. I had thought that was like being the CoMC, having the internal strength to do what must be done. Should I lower that in favor of something else? Valor doesn't fit the play style and Compassion doesn't fit the character (short version he was almost killed by politically powerful enemies and dedicated his life to revenge*). You thoughts?


*Again, CoMC is my favorite book.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You're doing it wrong. Play a Fiend instead.

Nah, just kidding. They're practically the same thing, although Infernals are always cool, unless you plan on playing to Essence 6+, in which case... Devil-Tigers are awesome, elder Solars go insane (although they don't actually have rules for that...). I'm currently making a Slayer caste with Malfeas and homebrew Isidoros charms, and I'm like Asura with a couple of Yasha's lines (whenever I use an Isidoros defensive charm, I'm going to get the urge (or Urge, if you want to be punny) to say "pathetic. Look at you, you cannot harm me" or "your attacks are not worth avoiding").

Temperance =/= cold-hearted. Cold-hearted is under the purview of Conviction.

And what's CoMC?

[TimeWizard]

the Count of Monte Christo. I have to play a Solar, Game master's rules. Should I lower Temperance and raise Compassion? Would it help to switch them completely?


Also, new question: I'm told that Eclipse can learn charms from other Castes. IS this useful? what would you recommend?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Also, new question: I'm told that Eclipse can learn charms from other Castes. IS this useful? what would you recommend?

I'm not experienced enough in non-solaroids to know much, but the Lunar excellencies cover more stuff than the Solar ones, and the Dragon-Blooded excellencies give you more bang for your buck than Solar ones (of course, you have to find a Dragon-Blooded that's willing to help you).

[TimeWizard]

(of course, you have to find a Dragon-Blooded that's willing to help you).

"Hello, I am the literal incarnation of everything you have ever feared for fifteen-hundred years who walks freely now that your leader is gone and your world is weakening. Please teach me your secret techniques".

[TheCountAlucard]

"Hello, I am the literal incarnation of everything you have ever feared for fifteen-hundred years who walks freely now that your leader is gone and your world is weakening. Please teach me your secret techniques".

Actually, that's only going to be for the DBs from the Realm; there are quite a few DBs not located on the Blessed Isle. My best suggestions would be Great Forks and Nexus.

Anyway, Temperance is far less about not being a drunk, and more of a case of self-restraint and evenness in all things. Conviction sounds more your bag, i.e., "I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get this done." Of course, even when your Virtue is rated at 3+, you can still ignore its tenets for a scene by spending a Willpower; you'll generally only gain Limit for it if it's your primary Virtue.

Your Compassion sounds fine at a 1 or 2; I wouldn't put it higher than that.

[Xefas]

"Hello, I am the literal incarnation of everything you have ever feared for fifteen-hundred years who walks freely now that your leader is gone and your world is weakening. Please teach me your secret techniques".

Add in a social charm or two, and this is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

[TheCountAlucard]

Add in a social charm or two, and this is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

Irresistable Salesman Spirit and a Presence Excellency can work wonders...

[golentan]

I'm not experienced enough in non-solaroids to know much, but the Lunar excellencies cover more stuff than the Solar ones, and the Dragon-Blooded excellencies give you more bang for your buck than Solar ones (of course, you have to find a Dragon-Blooded that's willing to help you).

Also, dragonblooded excellencies have a very narrow range of cost efficiency because of the out-of-type surcharge. At the lowest level, you're spending 3m for 2d. It's equal efficiency for 4 dice, it's got mildly superior efficiency for 5-8 dice, and regardless it's probably more efficient to Infinite Ability the cost away anyhow if you're spending that much per excellency for more than an action or two.

[meschlum]

Well, if other splats can be mentioned...

You're an Eclipse. You can get Fair Folk charms (some of which have entertaining utility), and Grace Magic. This ranges from good to terrifyingly good (with brief stops in Loony-ville and ST-Forbids-It-ton).

Aegis of a Martial Destiny gives you an automatic success at everything you do while seeking to accomplish a specific Intimacy - such as getting your revenge on the appropriate target.

Surpassing Excellence gives you +2 dice (count as specialty, stack with normal specialties) for something.

Ordinary Object Conjuration requiers a little effort to use (collecting gossamer takes work), but lets you create any insanely valuable thing you need. An excellent way to bribe foks, pass on messages, and generally be versatile.


Except for the last, the charms above are all free to use, so they're possibly worth picking up. Of course, if you want to incarnate the Count more effectively, you really need to remember that Monte Cristo is a small island in the Wyld, where you found the following artifact.


Deed of the Hidden Island

In the West, there is an island that is never quite where maps and memory suggest. It has been dound time and time again by successful pirates of all sorts, who hid their treasuers there with the conviction that they'd be able to recover them later on. But the island only appears to its master, who holds the rightful Deed, and to buccaneers heavily laden with loot they wish to conceal. When the time comes to reclaim their ill-got riches, the Hidden Island remains concealed.

The island's master, bearing the Deed naming him (or her) its Count, can draw freely upon its riches, scattering unspeakably precious treasures like so much dross. More, the Count is blessed with inhuman charisma, gaining the trust of all and weaving insidious and utterly compelling arguments out of nothing.

Still, to truly merit his rank, the owner of the Deed must serve the purposes of the island, and each season perform some act of vengeance upon one who has served him ill. The originator of the revenge can be concealed, but it must not fail, lest the authority of the island abandon its erstwhile master.

1-dot Oneiromancy (3 committed motes)
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Deed is a roll of paper which exudes authority and magnanimity.
Untouchable Performer Technique - it is extremely difficult to convince other people that the bearer of the Deed is anything but a paragon of virtue with the right on his side.
Unlimited Resplendence - the owner of the Deed can, with a simple act of will, contrive to own a controlling interest in any organization he cares to name, and call upon the limitless resources of the Island itself.
Beguilement - simple conversation with the owner of the Deed is dangerous, for his words can lead anyone astray, convincing anyone of nearly anything with minimal effort.
Mad God Mien - the Deed's tale is firmly set in the stuff of Creation, and its effects cannot be dismissed by sorcerous means.


It's possible to create more artifacts, with a focus on bringing bad luck to tohers rather than good luck to yourself, but they're expensive to acquire and highly specialized. Thus, if you want one, I'd recommend having a strange, exotic paramour from the Wyld, who will gladly mix weird drugs and tales so as to redirect your resources towards bringing about an appropriate doom to each of your foes.

Yes, this is entirely possible. Sadly, it calls for the wrong book.

[Madwand]

Also, new question: I'm told that Eclipse can learn charms from other Castes. IS this useful? what would you recommend?

I seriously recommend removing it from your game.
*Avoidance Kata from charmshere flame war*


For social character I would recommend taking Mask, artifact from Core book.

Second, is your group game under 2.0 or 2.5 rules? I need to know to give you proper combat advice

[Xefas]

Also, new question: I'm told that Eclipse can learn charms from other Castes. IS this useful? what would you recommend?

Well, the two downsides are thus. They cost double XP, and they cost 2 more motes to use. So, optimally, you're looking for a prerequisite-less charm, that is either Permanent or will most likely be used outside of mote-important situations (like combat).

Based on your character concept, I have two suggestions.

Witness to Darkness. (Manual: Infernals pg149) Adds (Essence) to your mental defenses against Manipulation based social attacks, and you add (Essence) automatic successes to see through another person's lies. It also lets you see perfectly in darkness of any kind, and can negate blindness-based Crippling effects. It's an entry-level charm, so you're not paying through the nose on XP, and it's Permanent, so no mote surcharge.

Intolerable Burning Truths [Never Forgive]. (Broken Winged Crane pg40) If you have had a positive intimacy towards someone, and it has then become a negative intimacy, that person becomes 'Reviled' to you. All social attacks you make to convince others to hate or harm that person (possibly including social attacks against the person in question?) are automatically Unnatural Mental Influence. Once again, it's Permanent, so no mote cost of any kind, and it's entry-level, so only one charm purchase of increased XP.

[Cirrylius]

remember that you have to fail a Temperance roll for intentionally lying if your Temperance is rated at 3 or higher.

JOOC, is that just for literal lying, or does it include lying by omission and misdirection too? I've always liked playing characters who have a penchant for being uncomfortably truthful, but who get around it by letting the target draw their own conclusions. Like Aes Sedai, but less ridiculously obvious.

[TimeWizard]

This has given me much great advice. I'm not sure if type 2 or 2.5, I'll find out.

Also, I'm beginning to think Exalted was published by Thesaurus makers....

[Friv]

My current Willpower as a new made character is 7, not counting the unspent xp I have at my disposal.

I didn't know that about Temperence, it sounds almost counter-intuitive. Cold hearted badasses can't lie as well as raging alcoholic thugs? weird. I had thought that was like being the CoMC, having the internal strength to do what must be done. Should I lower that in favor of something else? Valor doesn't fit the play style and Compassion doesn't fit the character (short version he was almost killed by politically powerful enemies and dedicated his life to revenge*). You thoughts?

Here's how it breaks down.

Conviction is about having the internal strength to do what must be done. The higher your Conviction, the more willing you are to sacrifice others or yourself in the name of your ideals and the things that you care about.

Temperance is about your restraint and fairness. It represents being someone who doesn't jump into the fray, who sits back and carefully considers everything. It makes it hard to lie, because a character with high Temperance is scrupulously fair at all times - a perfect judge, if you will, who won't let his own desires get in the way of what is right or wrong.

You could ask your ST how strict the "no lying" thing will be in his game, and whether you can lie to support a restrained, fairness-based playstyle.

[TheCountAlucard]

JOOC, is that just for literal lying, or does it include lying by omission and misdirection too?

Okay, I might've exaggerated; it's "acting dishonestly or showing bias in a matter of importance," as well as "acting on thoughtless impulse" and "breaking a sworn oath." As such, most instances of deception would probably fall under it, but only for, as it said, matters of importance.

[Tengu_temp]

Temperance has nothing to do with lying or being unable to lie. It's about being able to resist temptation and always carry yourself in an appropriate manner, not honesty. Deception does not trigger a temperance check, though showing bias when it comes to your companions might.

As for skills, I second that dodge is better than martial arts or melee for a character who doesn't intend to attack - though make sure that there is something useful you can actually do in combat, or else you'll get bored as most games tend to have a lot of it. Also, make sure to invest in lore and possibly occult - you need 1 dot of lore to be literate, if nothing else.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This has given me much great advice. I'm not sure if type 2 or 2.5, I'll find out.

Did your group recently download a new version of the Scroll of Errata?

[Madwand]

Just don't use charmshare. It is bad design choice, which should be killed by fire.

I've just started playing Exalted, and it's awesome, but I've never played any White Wolf stuff so I need some help.

If you are new player the choice from Solar charms is enough for you. Trust me on this one.

I.e: Witness to darkness imposes an internal penalty of her Essence rating to any Charisma-based social attack and -1 on all action in daylight(!). It is a bad choice for Chosen of Sun.

Intolerable Burning Truths is not worth 2 Solar charms, even without flaw. Flaw: "The Exalt cannot abandon or weaken a negative Intimacy toward reviled characters and refuses to believe anything good about them". So you become hate mongering (internet) troll... with bad judgment and crippling problem in changing foes into friends/followers.

[Ialdabaoth]

What's your XP budget? Or are you starting a new character, and expecting to 'catch up' with the rest of the group?

[Xefas]

If you are new player the choice from Solar charms is enough for you. Trust me on this one.

I.e: Witness to darkness imposes an internal penalty of her Essence rating to any Charisma-based social attack and -1 on all action in daylight(!). It is a bad choice for Chosen of Sun.

Intolerable Burning Truths is not worth 2 Solar charms, even without flaw. Flaw: "The Exalt cannot abandon or weaken a negative Intimacy toward reviled characters and refuses to believe anything good about them". So you become hate mongering (internet) troll... with bad judgment and crippling problem in changing foes into friends/followers.

Lies! Damn lies! Primordial Charms have no such terrible downsides.

Now, Mister Eclipse, if you'd be so kind as to take Witness to Darkness, it would open the way for an even greater charm to come. As Teln pointed out, Willpower is an extremely important statistic for Social Combat.

There exists an upgrade to Witness to Darkness known as "Hollow Heart Transcendence" (Return of the Scarlet Empress pg210), which gives you a pool of additional Willpower points equal to your Essence rating. Imagine having 15 points of Willpower while everyone else in the whole world is stuck at a mere 10. You would lord over all other social characters, sweeping aside their pathetic attempts to undermine your glory like so much refuse. It is power enough to allow a Solar to reign over even his own brethren.

Others might say that this charm has certain... other effects that it imposes. And they would be right. It also gives you additional experience points! A starting character can get as much as 27 experience out of the deal. Maybe even more. More than enough to cover the cost of the charm itself, and make up for quite a bit of Witness to Darkness as well.

It's a win-win. There's absolutely no reason not to.

[Lochar]

Spoken like a true Fiend.

[TheCountAlucard]

Actually, Xefas, it points out in the Charm itself that an Infernal who learns the Charm gets the XP; an Eclipse won't cut it.

Yes, I'm kidding; that said, the Charm really should be Native.

[Madwand]

Yes, I'm kidding; that said, the Charm really should be Native.

TimeWizard, we have here perfect example of why charmshare anima should die in fire.

[Lochar]

Actually, Xefas, it points out in the Charm itself that an Infernal who learns the Charm gets the XP; an Eclipse won't cut it.

Yes, I'm kidding; that said, the Charm really should be Native.

(Explanation for those that don't know why) If you pay the XP, you learn it as an Exalt of that type. Which is why Eclipses can learn to use Prayer-Strip MA charms if they pay 16 XP for 'em.