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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    In that case, another question: If an Eclipse Caste learned Investiture of Infernal Glory (assuming I haven't got it wrong again and that's actually possible), would they decide on their target's transformation/Urge, or would someone else (and if so, who)?
    Investiture of Infernal Glory is a spirit Charm, so it would function for a Fiend that learned it exactly as it functions for the demon he learned it from - so the Yozi it was tied to would make all of the deciscions.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyeudo View Post
    Investiture of Infernal Glory is a spirit Charm, so it would function for a Fiend that learned it exactly as it functions for the demon he learned it from - so the Yozi it was tied to would make all of the deciscions.
    Oh, that's a better answer.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    I no longer actively read the forums, and probably won't respond to any PMs. I'm fine with people using my homebrew in anything, including fan-compilations and wikis, as long as you credit me.

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  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    IT'S A WIN MONKEY QUICK HUGSWARM IT!
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  5. - Top - End - #335
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    So this curse people keep mentioning in that thread, is it related to this?
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  6. - Top - End - #336
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    You mean the Great Curse?

    oh thats a thing that makes any Exalted (Not Alchemical or Abyssal) Limit Break, a temporary form of insanity. Said Great Curse basically caused all the problems in the setting today, depending on how cynical or optimistic of human nature you are.

    What about it?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    You mean the Great Curse?

    oh thats a thing that makes any Exalted (Not Alchemical or Abyssal) Limit Break, a temporary form of insanity. Said Great Curse basically caused all the problems in the setting today, depending on how cynical or optimistic of human nature you are.

    What about it?
    The 'temporary' bit is questionable.

    The Great Curse also provides a form of perfect defense against soul-warping that is not the Great Curse: any attempts just add limit to the Great Curse Limit track rather than the 'real' one, and flat out won't work while you're in Limit Break.

    The Exalted naturally have a Limit Track, which is actually their ablative defense against such limit-inflicting powers (AKA, it's their soul's health track) but the only penalty for it filling if there's no curse (Redeemed Abyssals, mostly) is that you lose a dot of permanent willpower, which returns after a month or so.
    Of course, there's no Limit Break to protect you from just gaining more, and more, and more limit each time it resets, losing all your willpower, and dying that way.

    Alchemicals have a Limit Track in addition to Clarity (which is not wholly a bad thing, whatever you might think) but nothing in Autochthonia inflicts Limit and Alchemical charms can't self-inflict Limit, so they haven't noticed it.

    Abyssals have Resonance -instead of- Limit, Infernals have their Torments -instead of- Limit.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Currently, references to the "Curse" is probably to be taken as the Resonance variant that has been mentioned as included in Shards.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    My idea of why the Great Curse caused the general decay of the Solars lies in the fact that not resisting Limit Break is explicitly described as a cathartic experience. In other words, unrestrained Limit Break feels good.

    Basically, this leads the Solar the associate the behavior with the feeling good, and that leads to them doing the behavior even outside Limit Break.

    Not in every case, but that could account for a lot of it.


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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by horngeek View Post
    My idea of why the Great Curse caused the general decay of the Solars lies in the fact that not resisting Limit Break is explicitly described as a cathartic experience. In other words, unrestrained Limit Break feels good.

    Basically, this leads the Solar the associate the behavior with the feeling good, and that leads to them doing the behavior even outside Limit Break.

    Not in every case, but that could account for a lot of it.
    Wow...
    So going crazy is a drug?

    But then, the ones who resisted it by default (anybody with medium-high Temperance and a non-Temperance Limit Break, for example) wouldn't have fallen to corruption.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    It's not a perfect idea, but it's the closest I've got to how the GC as written could lead to the extremes of the First Age.


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  12. - Top - End - #342
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by horngeek View Post
    It's not a perfect idea, but it's the closest I've got to how the GC as written could lead to the extremes of the First Age.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    More like writers preferring to make the setting as grim-dark as possible. There's a reason that, if you go by canon characters, there often seems little reason to oppose the Abyssals.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Bah, Warhammer 40k is much darker. Exalted is light compared to the real grimdark I've seen.

    that and you can make the argument that a true moral person helps and protects people, even if they are jerks. helping other good people is easy. helping and being kind to a world of jerks is harder. If you letting the Abyssals kill everything, your just as bad the Abyssals.

    a world of jerks may not be a ideal, but a world destroyed is unacceptable. I'd rather have the world of the jerks, than no world at all.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    More like writers preferring to make the setting as grim-dark as possible. There's a reason that, if you go by canon characters, there often seems little reason to oppose the Abyssals.
    And one of those reasons is sheer stubbornness. Pretty much every other reason involves ignorance. It's why I like to play an Infernal who's The Lancer, who knows that the Dragon-Blooded rule isn't right, the Solar rule isn't right, the Thousand Streams River isn't right, and the world with redeemed Yozis plus Gaia and Autochthon all working with the exalted might be better, but it wouldn't be the end to all the problems, especially considering Creation is basically just a vacation house for the Primordials (you wouldn't like it either if all the electricity powering your house gathered up and zapped you and your friends, killing some of them and turning you inside out). Admittedly, the Primordials took a break for wayyyy too long. Seriously, they built the ultimate addiction, and that basically means "why do we have to work when we can just stay here and have more fun? There's nobody making us work". Or more likely:
    I, the Empyreal Chaos, command you to stay here and have more fun with me!

    In any case, I like to play an Infernal because I'm not only fighting a worthless battle, I know I'm fighting a worthless battle. And I'm still fighting it. Because someone has to. If more people didn't just give in to the hopelessness and despair, the world would be better, and it's my job to make sure the next generation has people with morals who are able to fight. I'll never be the shining hero, I never fully escaped from the pit that marks the depths of humanity, but it's my job to make sure the others never get that far. Or the opposite, make sure they do fall that far, experiencing the same moral troubles the Infernal did, coming out all the stronger for it or just resisting the tests entirely.

    Of course, for Exalted: Modern, I'm tempted to play a teenage Zenith...
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    More like writers preferring to make the setting as grim-dark as possible. There's a reason that, if you go by canon characters, there often seems little reason to oppose the Abyssals.
    Fraid not. The Great Curse existing is really due to the original creator liking classic tragedy and the game utilizing the Exalted as heroic figures. Hero in the ancient world sense, not the modern sense. the GC is basically there to act as a setting piece so that a character has the sort of character flaws that can be found in many larger than life heroic figures in ancient mythology. Which is also why you had the whole "Everyone will fight each other until the darkness overtakes all." unless nothing changes stuff. Emphasis on UNLESS NOTHING CHANGES.

    Exalted in general is not terribly grimdark. It's just in part, particularly during it's inception, was made to be a critique on black/white morality fantasy. So it deals in a lot of shades of grey.

  17. - Top - End - #347
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Not really what I'm talking about. I don't really have a problem with the Great Curse, persay. It's more some of the other parts of the setting. Like, Operation Wyldhand(which only serves the purpose of making the Solar Deliberative undefendable).

    Plus, it's not just the Exalted who act like this. Just about everyone does. Or, at least, all the named people.

    Drascin can probably provide better examples. Though, I know a couple of the current developers have mentioned stuff like parts of the setting being way to grimdark.

    This is one of the reasons that Autochonia was so well received: it felt like you didn't have to kill or mindrape all the named NPC's in order to save the world.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Like, Operation Wyldhand(which only serves the purpose of making the Solar Deliberative undefendable).
    Or you know..the Solar/Lunar couple in the North who were considered genuinely good people whose subjects didn't rebel against them when the Usurpation started. The Usurpation has largely been an example of the grey in Exalted, the whole situation with what the Sidereals did(at least the ones that didn't get killed by other Sidereals) as grey moral area.

    Drascin can probably provide better examples. Though, I know a couple of the current developers have mentioned stuff like parts of the setting being way to grimdark.
    There's been discussion about stuff like the Resonance mechanics and needing more diverse examples in the setting. That doesn't make the setting grimdark by any means.

    This is one of the reasons that Autochonia was so well received: it felt like you didn't have to kill or mindrape all the named NPC's in order to save the world.
    Auto has some of it's own issues. But by and large it's always been meant to portray a society in Exalted that doesn't suffer from many of the issues plaguing Bronze Age Creation.

  19. - Top - End - #349
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    That couple really doesn't prove the point. If anything, they're the exception, not the rule. The fact is that, instead of the Sidereals being gifted with incredible foresight, seeing the darkness that is to come, Wyldhand basically makes them the only people who can put 2-and-2 together, and basically everyone else is blind. In the current setting, the Usurpation isn't a shade of grey, it's the only sane option.

    Another issue is that, unlike Warhammer 40k, no one really seems to be working to save the world. Oh, sure, the Bronze faction says they're trying to, but their methods aren't grounded in reality, which leads to the problem of them alienating one of the strongest possible allies, while being beset by enemies. The Gold Faction's plan is retarded, and will likely end up doing the same. The Lunars are varying stages of insane, some only so that they're ineffective, others so that they're a danger to everyone. Solars are spread thin, and unorganized. They also tend toward the villainous.

    Then you can get into the actual villain splats: Infernals, Abyssals, and quite possibly the Fair Folk.

    The fact of the matter is that the setting should make me want to play it. The more I hear about it, the better it should be. But, often times, reading more about the setting has the opposite reaction, at least regarding some of the older 2nd Edition works.

    As for the discussion of it, no, it happened. Not exactly recently, but here are 4 threads where it is discussed.
    1. Where Holden brings up the issue.
    2. More discussion, including whether the grimdark is too much. Special Attention to Post 65 by Holden.
    3. More discussion. Special Attention at least to Post 50, by Aquillion
    4. Even more disscussion.


    There are also the various "Lets bitch about Spat X" threads, which sometimes touched on the issue.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    That couple really doesn't prove the point. If anything, they're the exception, not the rule. The fact is that, instead of the Sidereals being gifted with incredible foresight, seeing the darkness that is to come, Wyldhand basically makes them the only people who can put 2-and-2 together, and basically everyone else is blind. In the current setting, the Usurpation isn't a shade of grey, it's the only sane option.
    Yet it doesn't really address the young Solars that really have no clue what is going on, aren't being overrun by the Curse and are being heavily manipulated by the most potent of Elders who participate in the Deliberative. Then you have them outright murdering other Sidereals over the disagreement, and the comedy of errors that followed. Hell a great deal of Exalted has been showing just how shortsighted the Sidereals were. Their version of the curse makes their congregation anything BUT "the only sane option." Really "the Sidereals" in the quoted portion above ultimately amounts to what happens in so many conversations about Sidereals. "The Sidereals" gets used a lot when what should be used is "The Bronze faction." A lot of people have discussed wanting more examples of genuinely good Solars and others without grey frills but again..that doesn't give us "The writers want grimdark." There's a huge amount of middle being excluded.

    Another issue is that, unlike Warhammer 40k, no one really seems to be working to save the world. Oh, sure, the Bronze faction says they're trying to, but their methods aren't grounded in reality, which leads to the problem of them alienating one of the strongest possible allies, while being beset by enemies. The Gold Faction's plan is retarded, and will likely end up doing the same. The Lunars are varying stages of insane, some only so that they're ineffective, others so that they're a danger to everyone. Solars are spread thin, and unorganized. They also tend toward the villainous.
    Hardly surprising, Exalted is far more Game of Thrones than it is Tolkein, on purpose. It tends to try to approach "save the world" from the perspective of what happens when people with a vision like that try to enact it. It rarely ends pretty. And save the world still often means horrible things being done to pretty decent people for the sake of "saving the world."


    1. Deals with characterization issues with Lunars. This has been a huge problem a lot of proverbial post ink has been spilled on. It's never really been about grimdark but the ugly fallout starting with the 1st ed. Lunars book coming after the original design decision to make them NPC badguys allies of the Fair Folk changing at the last minute.

    2. Of course. This goes back to what I'm saying about middle being excluded. There's a big gulf between the setting's presentation as non Tolkein style bronze age world that often mirrors the brutality of the real world time periods the setting draws from. Also see lots of justifiable rants for what Desus as a backstory NPC has become.

    There's a lot of ground between grimdark and black hat/white hat fantasy land and Exalted tends to play in the middle. Even if it's had a lot of moments of, generally criticized, bad characterizations.

    Irony for me is. I got into Exalted primary transplanting over from CWoD because I was getting tired of CWoD grimdark. Course...I tend to absolutely HATE the vast majority of general fantasy genre books . So for me, much like I hate that stuff, but have loved stuff like Game of Thrones. I gravitated to Exalted's grittier, more grounded in the ugly realities of human history setting.

    I hope you end up finding bits of it that you like.

  21. - Top - End - #351
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Bah, Warhammer 40k is much darker. Exalted is light compared to the real grimdark I've seen.
    Wrong. 40K is harsher, more dangerous, more brutal, but when it comes to the stories themselves, it is not darker. In 40K, sometimes heroes are focused upon, and revered. They're rare, but for that, they become a focus. Ciaphas Cain, who for all his cowardice tries to do the right thing, is treated as admirable by the writers, not laughed at. The Salamanders are an entire chapter of Space Marines who champion the common man above the grim necessity, and they are never treated as being anything other than goddamn awesome badasses for standing up like that.

    Compare Creation. In Exalted, heroes (in the current sense, not the Exalted sense) are treated like doomed idiots who can't see the writing on the wall and who will never amount to anything before getting screwed by the "realistic" people, or worse, will certainly make thing worse because idealism and morals are for kids or idiots. Creation Gandhi does not exist, and if he existed, he would be laughed at, be an idiot, or unwittingly threaten to doom the universe. Writers spend pages upon pages detailing how horrible First Age Solars and Lunars were, and then give off a couple sentences of "oh, and I guess there were a few people who weren't so bad, maybe". Good people are, basically, not important in Exalted.

    Creation is every bit as doomed as the galaxy of 40K, but it seems the writers of 40K, as terrible as they are with things like prose or basic sense of scale, understand that sometimes people need someone to empathize with.

    So no, Exalted does not deal in shades of grey all that much. Seirei no Moribito deals in shades of grey. Hell, even Etrian Odyssey 3 does shades of grey better than most of Exalted and EO probably has less wordcount dedicated to story than a single small softcover supplement. Exalted is just a world where everyone is an *******. And despite what World of Darkness may try to convince us of, a world of *******s does not actually make for shades of grey .

    Well, except in Autochthonia. Autochthonia is cool precisely because it speaks of the writers finally understanding how shades of grey work. It is a place full of people with good intention trying to improve their lot and that of those around them, and coming into horrible conflict for it, and a couple monsters on the side. That is how you do shades of grey. Grey means you can see the point of all sides, it means difficult moral decisions. It does not mean a world of cartoon villains who nobody in their right mind would want to work with, like First Agers, the Yozis, the Deathlords, Ma-Ha-Suchi, Raksi, the revealed Empress, the Bull, etc, etc, etc.

    Or, heck, to sum up and give a tl;dr, I'll just quote myself from one of the threads Tavar linked:

    Many books have portrayed Creation as such a horrible, filled-with-myopic-*******s place that when reading them one can't help but wonder if the Neverborn have a point in the "just blow up everything" bit. In the real world there are good people, bad people, and most people in the spectrum inbetween trying to do their best with varied consequences. In ****dark Creation, everyone is an out-for-himself sociopath which you have to squint really hard to see any redeeming features to, and "altruistic" and "delusional" are used interchangeably. Like Holden said, a monotone crapness where there is almost nothing worth fighting for, not that there's anybody in the whole world who would be bothered to stop filling his own pockets for a second to come help fight for it anyway.

    This does not, shall we say, exactly motivate players to heroics.
    Last edited by Drascin; 2012-05-11 at 04:05 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #352
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    Wrong.
    Really, now. These kinds of categorical statements doesn't really promote discussion as much as argument.

    I think some of the point in Exalted is for you to be the other point of the scale. Also, the fact that the bad parts are focused on does not equate that there are no good parts.

    Personally, I find that two of the most powerful persons in Creation, Kejack and the Scarlet Empress, are plenty relatable and nuanced.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    Of course, for Exalted: Modern, I'm tempted to play a teenage Zenith...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revlid View Post
    And so it was that Zaeed, Aang, Winry, Ezio, Sadoko and Snow White all set out on their epic journey to destroy The Empire.

    God I love Exalted.


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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Weimann View Post
    Really, now. These kinds of categorical statements doesn't really promote discussion as much as argument.
    It was mostly for effect, really. To a categorical statement that 40K is darker than Exalted, tossing a categorical statement that it isn't, so as to make it obvious that not everyone agrees, and such . Might have come off nastier than intended.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    What is so bad about Scarlet Empress ? Compared to most Exalted guys she, even her writeup from RotSE seem to be kind of decent. For an Exalt, who all regardless of type and caste seem to be emotionally as stable as teenagers are described as.

    With exception of TerminatorsAlchemicals but they have Gremlin Syndrome for that whole grim-dark fetich.

    Personally I blame the Exalted Host for the ugly reality Creation has become. It's their handiwork after all. And blaming "Great Curse" for it is kinda retarded. If memory serves well, Great Curse meant was entirely justified and it's meaning was exactly right-sounding.

    So the murderers will suffer the same fate as the murdered.


    And pawns of Fate organized Usurpation so conveniently, it makes You wonder what wasn't spoken about event called Primordial War.
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  26. - Top - End - #356
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    It was mostly for effect, really. To a categorical statement that 40K is darker than Exalted, tossing a categorical statement that it isn't, so as to make it obvious that not everyone agrees, and such . Might have come off nastier than intended.
    That was not constructive. Such statements will not help anyone get towards the truth. I, however can objectively say WH40k is darker. Everyone is either apart of a totalitarian regime or completely insane monsters.

    Exalted is better, because it knows peace. The war isn't everywhere. Its possible for things to get better. Its possible to truly win. Its possible to change things for the better and make society a better place, even if you have to make a lot of sacrifices and pragmatic decisions

    Try the same thing in Warhammer 40k, try your best to change things, to improve the world- and despite all your efforts, it won't mean anything, it will be a drop in the ocean, one day to be quickly snuffed out while the ocean of war continues around your dead corpse.
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  27. - Top - End - #357
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    In fact, even to say that the 40k universe will continue is false- the 5e rulebook does paint a pretty clear picture that without universe-wide change, the galaxy is going to be ripped to pieces within the next five hundred years. A thousand years, tops.

    Heck, the Golden Throne is failing and there's nothing the tech-priests can do about it. Yeah, 40k is still darker than Exalted. And while you could make an argument that that's a subjective statement, I don't see that argument as being very solid.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Revlid View Post
    And so it was that Zaeed, Aang, Winry, Ezio, Sadoko and Snow White all set out on their epic journey to destroy The Empire.

    God I love Exalted.


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  28. - Top - End - #358
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    I feel that we're talking about very, very different things. Reading those threads I linked, especially the posts I mentioned, might shed a bit of light on Drascin and my view.
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  29. - Top - End - #359
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    You know, this may be the first time I've ever agreed with Tavar on something.

    The main issue is that it's a matter of PCs. If I'm playing Dark Heresy, I can do my damnedest to be a good person and to try and fight for Light, Life, and Liberty like a four-color superhero, but it doesn't matter at all because "they can't be saved by just one man;" it's like spitting in the ocean. Compare Exalted, where given enough time to build XP, I really can singlehandedly save the world (or raze it). Now, while this certainly makes Creation seem less grimdark than the 41st century, does it really count? If not for the actions of you, the player, creating a character who for some unfathomable reason never falls into the same ethical pitfalls as his predecessors, then is not Creation completely hopeless?

    At least 40k has heroes, pinpricks of light in the darkness that will die fighting; what does Creation have? - some unnamed Gold Faction Sids, the Golden Lord; maybe Ledaal Kes, the Roseblack, Luna, the Empress. Everyone else is either a complete fool (I'm looking at you, Sol) or an inhuman monster. At most, there'd be a few dozen legitimate heroes of the comic-y sort in Creation, whereas 40k has a thousand-thousand fronts for heroism, insignificant though it may be. The 41st century will die because there's nothing anyone can do; Creation will die because humanity is full of ****s. And I'd wager that's actually worse.

  30. - Top - End - #360
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Everyone else is either a complete fool or an inhuman monster.
    Even some of the ones you listed are debatable in that regard (Luna, the Empress, and the Gold Faction).
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2012-05-11 at 12:07 PM.
    It is inevitable, of course, that persons of epicurean refinement will in the course of eternity engage in dealings with those of... unsavory character. Record well any transactions made, and repay all favors promptly.. (Thanks to Gnomish Wanderer for the Toreador avatar! )

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