General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Tavar]

Gesh, I'm pretty sure we've agreed on some things before, we just didn't say anything about it, or it wasn't memorable.

But, yeah. The key, in this case, is the for much of Exalted's line, it seems that the world was doomed because of Humanity at large, rather than in spite of it. Very different messages, there.

The current batch of authors have been combating it, but they have a lot of baggage to go through, some of which has greatly damaged core splats: Solars and Lunars especially.

[golentan]

The one I don't get is the genocidal fury some folks (like my girlfriend) feel towards the dragonblooded. It never seemed to me that, as a whole, they were doing anything too wrong. They've got their monsters to be sure (is it of the dragons or from the dragons?) but generally their motive seems to have been "save the world from evil" even if it is appended "so we can rule it." But really, what self respecting exalt doesn't at least consider that last bit?

[Tavar]

The Dragonblooded have, in my opinion, the same numbers of monsters, bad eggs, and the like, that any other population of humans have. Now, most are going to try and violently murder other Exalts, but that's because they believe something untrue. And it's not really their fault for believing it, given the conspiracy that upholds it.

I'm reminded of that great essay on heroes in Exalted I saw, and how it points out that all of the original flavor of Exalts are Heroes, even if they oppose one another. And I'm fine with having multiple heroic factions. The issue is that it often seems that their are no such factions, only the PCs. Which makes for a crappy world.


Also, regarding the Unconquered Sun, would people have a more positive reaction to him if his current behavior was at least partially the Great Curse's influence?

[SiderealDreams]

Really, now. These kinds of categorical statements doesn't really promote discussion as much as argument.

I think some of the point in Exalted is for you to be the other point of the scale. Also, the fact that the bad parts are focused on does not equate that there are no good parts.

Personally, I find that two of the most powerful persons in Creation, Kejack and the Scarlet Empress, are plenty relatable and nuanced.

Exalted tends to focus on the nasty parts, I think, because it's the natural dramatic foil that has set the whole, insert the PC's the world WILL change. Stuff like.....

In Exalted, heroes (in the current sense, not the Exalted sense) are treated like doomed idiots who can't see the writing on the wall and who will never amount to anything before getting screwed by the "realistic" people, or worse, will certainly make thing worse because idealism and morals are for kids or idiots.

Is emphatically not true. What's really more the case is that the vast majority of people don't fall into the category of super white hat world appropriate saints. None of the virtues you'll notice are really purely good in their expression. If someone's concept is to be that sort of person, with an appropriate epic Motivation then you're not in fact....an idiot about to get screwed. You're a super powered being who's going to come into conflict when your saintly persona runs into the evils in the world...and the people who while not necessarily evil have interests that conflict with yours.

Creation Gandhi does not exist, and if he existed, he would be laughed at, be an idiot, or unwittingly threaten to doom the universe. Writers spend pages upon pages detailing how horrible First Age Solars and Lunars were, and then give off a couple sentences of "oh, and I guess there were a few people who weren't so bad, maybe". Good people are, basically, not important in Exalted.

People were created by cosmic Cthulhu monsters to be batteries. What Exalted doesn't have is inherent magical worthiness to things like "goodness" or "love",etc. If you read up on conversations about what something as innocuous as the Sidereal Charm Shun the Smiling Lady means for the setting the writers have often gone into that. Exalted trends more towards what the real world does. Importance tends to be measured exactly as much as there are people to fight for something being important. And different people who are not necessarily bad guys can and often do clash over their priorities.

As much as I'd like to post more. Drascin seems to have his or her mind made up about the setting so I'll just leave on this for Tavar. Those posts you mentioned. I can't speak for others but far and away the place I post IS the white wolf exalted forums. I read those threads the first time they came around.

[Tavar]

And yet none of your posts really address them, unless complete disregard is your form of address. In which case, not really much to talk about, then, is there. I mean, if you have read them, then why are you answering the accusations in those threads, rather than just ignoring them?

See,that passage that you say isn't true? If you take the stuff from before, oh, Alchemicals and Infernals(though including one chapter from Alchemicals, and 2 from Infernals), it basically is true. Besides possibly the players, everyone else really needs to be killed or mind-raped in order to save the world. Well, at least, everyone in a position of power. That doesn't make me feel good about the world.

[Gensh]

Also, regarding the Unconquered Sun, would people have a more positive reaction to him if his current behavior was at least partially the Great Curse's influence?

Nah. I outright dislike the Great Curse as a plot device, and since it really doesn't have any influence on the game, I just sort of ignore it. I think I've had maybe one Limit Break in all my games since my players thus far have tended to stick to their Virtues and dislike mind control so much I never use it. Really, you can gloss over everything but the Crusade with the excuse that they were all actions by humanity, to whom he gave the CRM an which he could not stop without breaking his word. Now, the Crusade? That's inexcusable; if he's about to break away from the Games just because the Solars are returning, surely he could break away in order to fulfill his primary duty.

[Tavar]

And see, there the peaceful agreement ends. I think the Great Curse is a pretty good mechanic to have in the game. Parts of it are bad(Torments shouldn't be contagious, for example), but the base idea? I'd keep it.

Also, having all the problems be the result of humanity...well, it basically means Creation is doomed. Because Humanity can't be trusted with the powers, the gods can't, and neither can the Primordials. That's about all the actors that want to keep creation around.

[aetherialDawn]

Nah. I outright dislike the Great Curse as a plot device, and since it really doesn't have any influence on the game, I just sort of ignore it. I think I've had maybe one Limit Break in all my games since my players thus far have tended to stick to their Virtues and dislike mind control so much I never use it. Really, you can gloss over everything but the Crusade with the excuse that they were all actions by humanity, to whom he gave the CRM an which he could not stop without breaking his word. Now, the Crusade? That's inexcusable; if he's about to break away from the Games just because the Solars are returning, surely he could break away in order to fulfill his primary duty.

The Daystar was fulfilling his duty as intended; it was swamped by an aerial invasion of Raksha, and successfully fended them off (although it was pinned down for most of the war) ensuring that the SKY OF CREATION did not turn into one big Wyld zone.

Also keep in mind that one of Sol's bigger priorities is to make sure that nobody realizes that he and the Daystar are weapons, so that Creation does not live in fear of a Death Star that hangs over their heads every day.

Now, is that the best idea? Maybe not. But at least he has some stated reasons.

[Tavar]

While the Daystars abscene is understandable, the fact that, per canon, the Incarnae did not go out and try to stop it is a mark against them. Hence why I suggest the Great Curse as an answer.

[SiderealDreams]

And yet none of your posts really address them, unless complete disregard is your form of address. In which case, not really much to talk about, then, is there. I mean, if you have read them, then why are you answering the accusations in those threads, rather than just ignoring them?

See,that passage that you say isn't true? If you take the stuff from before, oh, Alchemicals and Infernals(though including one chapter from Alchemicals, and 2 from Infernals), it basically is true. Besides possibly the players, everyone else really needs to be killed or mind-raped in order to save the world. Well, at least, everyone in a position of power. That doesn't make me feel good about the world.

I did address them. But whether or not you liked how I did is another story. And it's a bit disingenuous to go "everyone else really needs to be killed or..." and I'm just supposed to eat that up? Yeah no thanks. Again I go back to Game of Thrones. It's "real world" grim punctuated by rare bits of white hats/black hats. Acting as if it has to be one extreme or the other is excluding a big middle that the game practically shoves in your face.

To me, the way you are looking at the setting is very very much nirvana fallacy. If someone is so hell bent on making it OWoD-esque nothing I do matters the world is going to go boom and plays it that way...well they're asking to be miserable.

And if you're familiar enough with the forum and writer comments then you are probably familiar with the numerous instances in which a writer's quote was taken WAY out of context. Like say...the whole mortals don't get to win thing.

Edit: Not worth the argument. This is directly from the guy who made the quote.

Sometimes, I greatly regret making the "Mortals don't get to win" statement, not because it isn't true, but because it is so often misinterpreted to mean something else. Exalted is set up so that mortals are dangerous, because everything is dangerous. Battle Charms will always tip the fight in favor of the Exalt in a mano a mano duel, but the default mode is for the Chosen to fear acts of ninja, gang beatdowns, archer firing squads, getting clinched and pounded, poisoned weapons and a host of other nasty tricks that are intended to be exceedingly lethal modes of attack. With the right Charms, Exalted can mitigate these hazards and arrive at a point where mortals cease to offer any threat by means at their disposal. It's an investment of competence and the magnitude of that investment varies based on the "tier" of Exaltation, with Dragon-Blooded never really quite managing total immunity (but exceedingly close).

It's very pithy to say "Mortals don't get to win!" as a sound-bite. There's enough truth to it that many agree on the spot, and others pass it along because it has an inflammatory challenge aspect to it, as though I'm daring some Batman to emerge from the shadows and prove his mettle. However, the greater truth is that Exalted have to work up to lolmortal status; they have to want it. If they do, well, they win. It's simple. If they don't, a mortal who finds the right chink might get lucky. Mortals can matter. They can do things that affect the setting, and can -- with good tactics -- threaten younger and less martially inclined Exalted. There's also the fact that most of the people in the setting are mortals, so you can't help but interact with them on a constant basis as friends and foes. If that doesn't generate some plot, Adorjan is no doubt very proud of your freakish sense of detachment. A game where mortals don't matter is not Exalted, though it shares much in common with the game. Establishing yourself as a hero (or monster, or both) among your own kind is pretty part and parcel of the Exalted play experience for all types of Chosen. Yet there is a difference between mattering and triumphing in any king of the hill conflict with a sufficiently trained Exalt.

[golentan]

And see, there the peaceful agreement ends. I think the Great Curse is a pretty good mechanic to have in the game. Parts of it are bad(Torments shouldn't be contagious, for example), but the base idea? I'd keep it.

Also, having all the problems be the result of humanity...well, it basically means Creation is doomed. Because Humanity can't be trusted with the powers, the gods can't, and neither can the Primordials. That's about all the actors that want to keep creation around.

I agree with everything in this post.

My worst moment in Exalted was the moment I realized my infernal's intimacies were limited due to torment. I had a cecelynian urge, you see, and I wanted my character to have a soft spot for children, so I wrote down "Children: Love" as an intimacy. Then I realized that every time I limit broke I would be exposing every child in the world to a lethal attack damaging enough to kill them.

...

Also, Cecelynian torment is weird in that it can be weaponized. Say your infernal wants to wipe out the terrestrial exalted. Clearing it with the yozis (this assumes that they're not vital to yozi plots a la RoTSE), he takes the Terrestrial Exalted (hatred) as an intimacy. He then, being a high temperance infernal, sits in malfeas snorting various powders, chugging various liquids, and having orgies which require him to constantly suppress his temperance. He limit breaks, and every terrestrial exalt takes damage with him, because the limit mechanics don't specify it has to be a positive intimacy, just one to something the yozis disapprove of. He can survive this longer than the terrestrials can, because a maxed out essence 8 terrestrial has 23 health levels due to ox body whereas he can have 27 before elder essence. Even if, as the wording suggests, terrestrial soak charms can help against this those dragonblooded who have invested in such are hemorrhaging motes to keep it at minimum damage, while less sturdy exalts are perishing within the first week.

[Tavar]

No, you haven't addressed it. And you continue to refuse to. We aren't talking about saving the world like, oh, trying to slow/prevent/reverse global warming or anything. We're talking about stopping the barbarians at the gates, the hordes of undead abominations being released, the Clear and Present dangers to those who chose to look for them(which, at the very least, should include all Sidereals).

As for taking it out of context, I'd agree, except the writer clarification was that, yeah, this is exactly what he was talking about. He's the one who said

This matches up with what I was thinking when I tossed the phrase out, off the cuff, for what it's worth. It was specifically in criticism of a particular writer's tendency to write webs of characters who only interact in terms of hateful contempt for one another, and other freelancers who followed that trend once it was established until it drowned out everything else from around 2006-2008.

. This is post 65 in the thread I was talking about, and you should probably read it, because I don't really think you know what you're talking about.

The fact that Exalted was, for some time, written as if the only possible people who are decent(not good, decent) were the players, and that's just a possibility? That's how it was written, and that's not shades of grey. It's, well, I can't call it the term Holden used, because it violates the forums filters, but it's the more pejorative form of grimdark. And it sucks.

[SiderealDreams]

I agree with everything in this post.

My worst moment in Exalted was the moment I realized my infernal's intimacies were limited due to torment. I had a cecelynian urge, you see, and I wanted my character to have a soft spot for children, so I wrote down "Children: Love" as an intimacy. Then I realized that every time I limit broke I would be exposing every child in the world to a lethal attack damaging enough to kill them.

...

Also, Cecelynian torment is weird in that it can be weaponized. Say your infernal wants to wipe out the terrestrial exalted. Clearing it with the yozis (this assumes that they're not vital to yozi plots a la RoTSE), he takes the Terrestrial Exalted (hatred) as an intimacy. He then, being a high temperance infernal, sits in malfeas snorting various powders, chugging various liquids, and having orgies which require him to constantly suppress his temperance. He limit breaks, and every terrestrial exalt takes damage with him, because the limit mechanics don't specify it has to be a positive intimacy, just one to something the yozis disapprove of. He can survive this longer than the terrestrials can, because a maxed out essence 8 terrestrial has 23 health levels due to ox body whereas he can have 27 before elder essence. Even if, as the wording suggests, terrestrial soak charms can help against this those dragonblooded who have invested in such are hemorrhaging motes to keep it at minimum damage, while less sturdy exalts are perishing within the first week.

I agree with the first part. But then it's not a secret among those following the writers that the current Limit rules for Infernals needs some work.

The point of Exalted, behind all the exploding cities and riotously fun punch-ups with behemoths and gods, is that given the power to easily (or even manageably) change the world, changing the world is still a task fraught with peril and unintended consequences and that power alone is not sufficient and has never been sufficient to solve the eternal dilemmas of the world.

[Turalisj]

While the Daystars abscene is understandable, the fact that, per canon, the Incarnae did not go out and try to stop it is a mark against them. Hence why I suggest the Great Curse as an answer.

I am reminded of the post where Sol tries to go out during the Crusade, and the rest of the Incarnae (sans Gaia) had to tackle him to keep him from going out and getting killed.

[Andreaz]

I am reminded of the post where Sol tries to go out during the Crusade, and the rest of the Incarnae (sans Gaia) had to tackle him to keep him from going out and getting killed.

Gaia is not an incarna.

[Tavar]

I believe she's something of an honorary member.

[Andreaz]

She's the entire reality's MILF.

[Lord Raziere]

I feel that we're talking about very, very different things. Reading those threads I linked, especially the posts I mentioned, might shed a bit of light on Drascin and my view.

Yea, I think your talking about Peopledark, while I'm talking about Settingdark.

[Andreaz]

Yea, I think your talking about Peopledark, while I'm talking about Settingdark.

People make the setting. If only absolutely uncontrolled things are terrible², then all you have is an inhospitable land.

[golentan]

Hey, random question. Anyone know of a good source for homebrew plant based artifacts? Things in the style of the Dragon Kings, plants with weird, cool magical effects.

[Rockphed]

While the Daystars abscene is understandable, the fact that, per canon, the Incarnae did not go out and try to stop it is a mark against them. Hence why I suggest the Great Curse as an answer.

I was going to bring up someone's post detailing the lengths to which the maidens and luna went to stop Sol from venturing forth to face Balor in single combat, but Turalisj already mentioned it.

I am reminded of the post where Sol tries to go out during the Crusade, and the rest of the Incarnae (sans Gaia) had to tackle him to keep him from going out and getting killed.

Personally, I think if The Unconquered Sun were rewritten to be incredibly impetuous but always keep his oaths it would go a long way toward explaining why he spends all his time inside the Jade Pleasure Dome.

[Weimann]

I don't know if you guys already saw this, but I'll post it here anyway: FearMeForIAmPink on the official forum has created comment files with errata for the pdf versions of the books. It's really handy. Check it out.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I was going to bring up someone's post detailing the lengths to which the maidens and luna went to stop Sol from venturing forth to face Balor in single combat, but Turalisj already mentioned it.

Is it even canon ? I remember it to be mentioned as humorous comment. And let's be serious, were UCS so willing to go, he would throw the "harem girls" on the pillows and go. They were just an excuse. Prince Balor of Terrible Gaze would most likely own him. Unlike UCS he still believed in his cause.

Personally, I think if The Unconquered Sun were rewritten to be incredibly impetuous but always keep his oaths it would go a long way toward explaining why he spends all his time inside the Jade Pleasure Dome.

And now we have "embodiment" of Virtues who isn't acting all that virtuous. Ebon Dragon certainly isn't pleased for if UCS acts "evil" that means ED's efforts to be total, absolute lol-d of evulz might go wrong and one day he'll pet the puppy instead of kicking it.

[aetherialDawn]

Is it even canon ? I remember it to be mentioned as humorous comment. And let's be serious, were UCS so willing to go, he would throw the "harem girls" on the pillows and go. They were just an excuse. Prince Balor of Terrible Gaze would most likely own him. Unlike UCS he still believed in his cause.

The other Incarna could certainly oppose the UCS. He has a pretty ridiculous combat form... But Luna has a pretty ridiculous combat form which she can customize on the fly, and the Maidens have access to any sorcery or martial arts cheese that has ever existed. Yes, he can have a constant PD up, but so what? He can't PD away Luna turning into a huge spherical monster that Blockade Movement's him at every turn, and teleportation is one of the few things the UCS doesn't have all that much of. For that matter, if he flees them, he has to suppress his Valor - or if they want to get REALLY rough, they make it a case of Temperance. If he refuses and suppresses his Temperance... Well, good-bye invulnerability.

Luna and the Maidens certainly know him well enough to work with him in that way...

[horngeek]

The other Incarna could certainly oppose the UCS. He has a pretty ridiculous combat form... But Luna has a pretty ridiculous combat form which she can customize on the fly, and the Maidens have access to any sorcery or martial arts cheese that has ever existed. Yes, he can have a constant PD up, but so what? He can't PD away Luna turning into a huge spherical monster that Blockade Movement's him at every turn, and teleportation is one of the few things the UCS doesn't have all that much of. For that matter, if he flees them, he has to suppress his Valor - or if they want to get REALLY rough, they make it a case of Temperance. If he refuses and suppresses his Temperance... Well, good-bye invulnerability.

Luna and the Maidens certainly know him well enough to work with him in that way...

Hell, the reason they'd be trying to stop him is because he has to supress his Temperance in order to go out against the Fey.

[Turalisj]

So... Who wants to run a Street Fighter style game once Shards is out?

[Rikandur Azebol]

In pure combat prowess, other Incarna aren't UCS's equals. Were ganging up so useful against him, he would be owned long time ago when fighting this or that enemy of Creation (or one of those he created by being himself).

Asides from fact that he could simply explain to them. That unlike Creation, he's replaceable.

Hell, the reason they'd be trying to stop him is because he has to supress his Temperance in order to go out against the Fey.

How following UCS's Motivation is against Temperance ? His motivation isn't "sit back and hope Creation won't blow up" but "protect Creation from threats".

[Turalisj]

In pure combat prowess, other Incarna aren't UCS's equals. Were ganging up so useful against him, he would be owned long time ago when fighting this or that enemy of Creation (or one of those he created by being himself).

Asides from fact that he could simply explain to them. That unlike Creation, he's replaceable.

The other Incarna have no reason to gang up on him. Mars and Luna are nearly his equal, and the Incarna together would be able to keep him tied down.

He's replaceable in the same way that a Stradivarius Violin is replaceable. You could make something similar, but it wouldn't sound the same.

[golentan]

Is this a reasonable artifact? It's based a souped up version of a House of Refuge. The intent is that it can be used to build a fairly large safe haven in the wyld given years of effort.

Goblin's Bane (Artifact 3)

Originally a heavy nut the size of a Coconut but more closely resembling a Chestnut, Goblin's Bane remains quiescient unless placed in the Middlemarches or deeper Wyld. Once so placed, the nut cracks and a tree begins to sprout over the course of a month, growing to a tree the size of a small one room hut, sprouting branches from all exposed surfaces and shaped roundly and slightly irregularly. The tree grows even in locations where it would seem to be impossible, such as midair or deep underwater, remaining fixed in place unless moved by charms, artifacts, or other magics. The tree is hollow, and is always connected to a knot large enough to crawl through, and within is subject to the laws of creation. Those within a Goblin's Bane tree need never fear mutation or other wyld taint, and the interior is always conducive to human life. The tree manages this feat by channeling wyld essence through its trunk, sprouting a baffling variety of wyld seeds (1 for each mutation duration for the depth of the wyld the tree resides in).

In addition, the tree can be "fed" daily, able to internalize a single mote each day. If fed 1000 motes of creation aspected essence, a new goblin's bane seed will sprout over the next month, allowing the creation of a small "forest" of reality.

Fair folk despise Goblin's Bane and will set upon it if they get the opportunity.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Is this a reasonable artifact? It's based a souped up version of a House of Refuge. The intent is that it can be used to build a fairly large safe haven in the wyld given years of effort.

Seems weak for artifact 3. You can't move it, it takes over two Creation years (and almost three Earth years) to make even one other, you have to remain within a small area to make another so that you can feed the tree.

Also, since it's supposed to make forests of reality, maybe instead of a tree house, make it have a ten foot radius circle of reality around the tree? Or something like that?