General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Tavar]

How following UCS's Motivation is against Temperance ? His motivation isn't "sit back and hope Creation won't blow up" but "protect Creation from threats".

The idea is that his Temperance is already down for a variety of reasons. For instance, suppressing it continuously for the past, oh, 1300 years or so since he turned away from the Solars.

[Turalisj]

He could have stopped the Usurpation. But he didn't. He let the Solars die, let the lunars be outcast, and let the Sidereals screw things up royally. Hence the suppressed Temperance.

[Revlid]

He could have stopped the Usurpation. But he didn't. He let the Solars die, let the lunars be outcast, and let the Sidereals screw things up royally. Hence the suppressed Temperance.

Putting aside the argument over whether his Virtues would have driven him to stop or aid the Usurpation, and whether he'd want to put that situation to the test, ever, I think you underestimate the resources the Sidereals and Terrestrials had committed to the Usurpation if you believe the Sun alone could have stopped them.

If you can kill almost 300 Solars, a great number of whom are Elder Essence and all of whom are laden with the panoplies common to that Age, then the Sun is really just another box to be ticked off on your list of "People I Need to Murder and/or Imprison to Save the World".

[Tavar]

Yeah, I don't think that, had he changed his mind when the Usurpation went down he could have done anything besides die if he charged in. He could greatly effect the outcome, but it'd be through less direct means.

Also, that's not the point he started suppressing Temperance(which, you know, might also have lead to a greater weakness towards the games). I'd say it was when the Solars started taking his name in vain, and he did nothing but turn away and bury himself in the games.

Which, coincidentally, is probably the point that he could have changed things. Or, it is if you hold the view in which that even is one of the contributing factors to how the whole Sidereal side of things turned out.

[Lochar]

Yeah, the Gold Prophecy probably had step 1 as "Get into the Jade Pleasure Dome and kick the Sun's ass until he puts his Solars back in line."

As usual, Chejop crowd surfing with small gods of alcohol won the day, and the Bronze was pushed instead.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Yeah, the Gold Prophecy probably had step 1 as "Get into the Jade Pleasure Dome and kick the Sun's ass until he puts his Solars back in line."

There are so many flaws with this plan that I don't even know where to begin.

Let's see.

A) This is, uh, really obvious. The Solars are sure as hell going to want to know why the Sidereals just ganged up and punched the Unconquered Sun in the nads. There's pretty much no way you could conceal a fight with the Unconquered Sun like that.

B) Pissing off the Unconquered Sun (and by extension, the other Incarnae, the rest of Heaven, and gods know who else) is literally the fourth most terrible idea ever in the setting of Exalted. The Fivescore Fellowship might be able to beat Sol into submission for a day, but he is the absolute last person you want with a grudge against you.

C) The Unconquered Sun is bound by his own oath not to intervene in Creation, what with the Creation-Ruling Mandate and all. Meddling with the Solars and their business would be yet another violation of Temperance.

D) So, say all of this comes to pass, somehow. The Sidereals do a secret ninja beating of Sol and get him to intervene, without getting him apocalyptic on them or letting the Solars know. He goes down to the next convention of the Deliberation, and says something to the effect of "yo, sun dogs, better check yourself before you wreck yourself".

Annnnnnd they laugh in his face. The Sun can absolutely not make the Solars do anything. The throwdown necessary to force the Solars into line would destroy Creation, which Sol is absolutely not willing to do. Some of them will listen to him, sure. But the ones you want to listen, the ones that poke the shinma with a sharp stick just to see what will happen, will just look at him as if he's beneath them.

Honestly, I expect the Gold Faction's plans were more along the lines of "limited culling". There are some Solars who are too far gone. They have to die. Other Solars who know too much or are in inconvenient positions must go as well. Lunar mates, too. Some can be subtly shifted towards new views and the really new ones (like reincarnations of aforesaid assassinees) can be taken under the wing of an appropriate mentor. Apply a bit of subtle pressure on Lytek to get him to plant the memories you want. Position the hierarchy of heaven so that appropriate influences may put into place. Wage a silent war of propaganda and information among the mortals and Dragon-Bloods. Grease the wheels, change society brick by brick, ever so carefully.

This would take centuries, even millenia. And if the Solars ever find out, well, Chejop gets a bitter laugh.

[Lord Raziere]

@ Lochar: ugh. I don't think Heaven was even that corrupt back then….no wait I'm definitely sure it wasn't anywhere near that corrupt at all. The corruption only started only after the Shogunate started going underway, and it only started to become as bad as it is now, when the Great Contagion ended.

No, Chejop won, because he argued better. He basically convinced most of the Sidereals that the safer option with less risk was the better one because:
Entire world at stake. Do you really want to make this needless risk here? Imagine what would happen if you fail in trying to carry out this uncertain vision. Too many things could go wrong. One wrong step and everything goes to Malfeas. That and we would have to exercise very fine and expert control over a situation with too many variables, over uncontrollable Solars who have basically been taught that they can do whatever they want for thousands of years, tell me my fellow Sidereals do you see any hope of convincing the Solars in their current state to do anything other than pursue their own desires?

and so on and so forth.

[Rikandur Azebol]

The other Incarna have no reason to gang up on him. Mars and Luna are nearly his equal, and the Incarna together would be able to keep him tied down.

If that would be true, then UCS would perish against the numerous Incarana-level threats outside of Creation. Nearly doesn't make it good enough against foe of such magnitude as UCS. Unlike other Incarna UCS was made to fight and win, no matter what.

I'm trying to point out how silly is this argument, about Incarna not wanting him to go do his ... life's calling. Were Maiden of Endings convinced it's his appointed time, she would kill other Incarna to make it happen. Somehow I have difficulties imagining Maiden of War trying to stop ultimate warrior from fighting.

That's why UCS didn't fought against Fae isn't outside factor interfering, but his own decision. Not to mention that his Temperance was broken since when he violated his own promise for the first time. Especially against Fae.

He's replaceable in the same way that a Stradivarius Violin is replaceable. You could make something similar, but it wouldn't sound the same.

Broken Stradivarius makes no sound. And were Empyreal Chaos restored somehow, he certainly can make more UCS's. Did it once, thus most likely can make it again.

[Sanguine]

Broken Stradivarius makes no sound. And were Empyreal Chaos restored somehow, he certainly can make more UCS's. Did it once, thus most likely can make it again.

The Sun was a joint-effort by The Holy Tyrant, Cytheria, Autochthon, and the Dragon's Shadow. So, yes, if you can get all four of those back to what they were before the War and get them to work together you could make something pretty damn similar. Not the same, but similar.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Wait what ? Autochton ? What hand he had in making of the UCS ? His stuff was part of Daystar ... but not UCS. Dragon's Shadow inspired Empyreal Chaos to make UCS as His personal touch and crowning jewel for Creation. It's first time I hear about Cythraea making UCS, though, asides from the fact that she was giving ingredients.

[Sanguine]

Wait what ? Autochton ? What hand he had in making of the UCS ? His stuff was part of Daystar ... but not UCS. Dragon's Shadow inspired Empyreal Chaos to make UCS as His personal touch and crowning jewel for Creation. It's first time I hear about Cythraea making UCS, though, asides from the fact that she was giving ingredients.

Yes, I was referring to the fact that the Daystar was created using some of Auto's tech. Which plays an indirect part in the Creation of Sol, due to the interwoven nature of a god and their domain. Now we could just assume that he's not important since we already have the Daystar. Though then one has to take into account that none of the Primordials played a direct part in Sol's creation, only in the creation of the Daystar.

Quite frankly the much easier way to replace the Sun is just to have a Sidereal do it.

Also Cytheria's part was in purifying the Empyreral Chaos' flame.

[Gensh]

Wait what ? Autochton ? What hand he had in making of the UCS ? His stuff was part of Daystar ... but not UCS. Dragon's Shadow inspired Empyreal Chaos to make UCS as His personal touch and crowning jewel for Creation. It's first time I hear about Cythraea making UCS, though, asides from the fact that she was giving ingredients.

Well the process was thus:
The EC stole the core to one of Autochthon's inventions.
The EC focused his flames as pure as he could get them and gave a bit to Cytherea, who worked to remove his imperfections and weaknesses.
The EC remodeled Autochthon's device into a perfect engine of destruction.
The EC took his flame back from Cytherea and ignited the Daystar.
The Dragon's Shadow created the most aggravating god he could think of as the captain of the Daystar.

All in all, so long as the Daystar exists, you really only need to restore the Ebon Dragon's ability to create gods, though that's obviously a terrible idea.

[Lord Raziere]

We can at least take solace in the fact that Sol has fulfilled everything the Ebon Dragon could've intended with him; Sol after all did betray the Primordials, which is one of the Ebon Dragons themes: betrayal. And when it really counted, Sol did suppress his virtue and neglect the world because of it, succumbing to laziness/indolence.

I mean can you really trust anything made by the Ebon Dragon? Everything he does is to screw over someone somehow, would make sense that Sol is just a living screwover god in the disguise of virtue and heroism, which would fit the Ebon Dragon's theme of deception….

I mean think, what is the greatest lie a villain can achieve? that they are actually the hero, that they are actually the person that wants to help everyone and everything. Who is the greatest creation of the Ebon Dragon? Ignus Divine.
Would it not make sense, that Sol is the greatest lie the Ebon Dragon ever told?

[Tavar]

Okay, a bit of a re-write to the Unconquered Sun is in order, mainly because he hasn't been updated to the current paradigm. In addition, there are some things that I feel aren't presented in the best way. For instance, this version attempts to be a bit less binary.


Still very much a work in progress, but I wanted some opinions and thoughts on it. Anything from "Good work, keep it up" to "I CAN NOT UNSEE!" is appreciated.

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Motivation, Intimacies, Attributes, Virtues, Abilities, Backgrounds, Sorcery, and Charms remain the same.


Radiant Panoply of the Unconquered Sun: General rules are the same.

Highest of Holies-No change.
Righteous Answer of Catechism-No Change
Solar Circle Charms-No change.

Replaced-Aegis of Unconquered Might: While his Temperance is unbroken, he is immune to all negative effects that carry a keyword. If broken, he may still call upon this fulcrum's power, paying 6 motes to ignore one instance of such an effect.


Perfection of (Virtue):

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This is actually a set of 4 charms, each tied to a virtue, and imbued in it's corresponding Fulcrum, and are transferable. To activate the ability, one much have not suppressed the appropriate virtue, and use a channel of said virtue, though as part of a charm activation this does not cost the normal willpower, and their is no limit to how many virtue channels may be spent on these abilities per action. The basic effect of the charm is to allow the user to perfectly succeed on one roll, though each specific one has limitations. They can be used both in Social or Physical combat, but are not limited to these areas. If the number of threshold successes matters, they are assumed to have a minimum of [essence] successes on the action.

In addition, as an innate capability, any who wield a Fulcrum may, instead of a stunt reward, regain a virtue channels equal to the number of dice rewarded, though all normal rules for Stunt rewards apply(one per action, etc). If the wielder suppressed the virtue that matches the charm, this ability is lost for the scene, or however long the virtue is suppressed for, whichever is longer.

While Wielding A fulcrum, a character follows the same virtue restrictions the Sun Labors under, but only for the virtues corresponding to the fulcrums they carry: if a character has the Aegis of Unconquered Might and the Godspear of All-Searing Noon he must act in accordance with the Unconquered Sun's Valor and Temperance restrictions, but not the Compassion or Conviction ones.

Compassion-This charm may only be used offensively when used to protect the weak, or a user's positive intimacies. An offensive action supplemented by this charm cannot kill the target, only render incapacitated. Defensively, this acts as a Perfect Parry or Dodge even if those normally could not apply, meaning it must be activated in step 2, but can be used to reflexively defend another. When used defensively, this charm can only be used in the presence of someone or thing that the user cares about, not including themselves.

Temperance-This charm cannot be used offensively. Defensively, it can be used as a Perfect Dodge, Parry, or Soak even if those normally could not apply. The first 2 must be activated in step 2 as normal, the last one in step 8. When used defensively, the character cannot take any movement action for 2 actions.

Conviction-This charm is, in many ways, the easiest to use. As long as the character follows his core beliefs, he may use it on any action. The biggest danger is that this can often conflict with the other virtues or lesser beliefs, making it a bit harder. Defensively, this can be a perfect soak, block, or dodge, even if those values could not normally be used. This charm cannot be used in a scene where the character has directly countered their motivation, and if in the scene they have acted against an intimacy or a virtue, then this charm has an additional cost of 3 motes.

Valor-This charm can offensively be used only against worthy foes. Any character with a combined attack pool of at least 13 is considered such. All characters who have managed to hit the user, or would have if not for a perfect defense, count as a worthy foe. If the Attack is holy, all Creatures of Darkness are considered such. Defensively, this ability may be used as a Perfect parry or Perfect soak normally, a dodge only with appropriate stunt, even if those normally could not apply. Used defensively, the character must move towards the most dangerous opponent until his DV has refreshed twice.

Note, the Sun almost never uses the Dodge option for these charms: he is not unable, he simply views it as crass. Additionally, while normal NPC's do not receive stunts, the Unconquered Sun or anyone he bestows a fulcrum on would not count as a normal NPC except in the most unusual circumstances. Even so, ST's are encouraged to be conservative with the Sun's stunts: his very perfection means expectations are higher, and he has a more difficult time adding variety to his flawless attacks. In addition, if the Sun is the user and the roll goes into essence rolloff, he may pay 1 temporary willpower to gain [essence x2] successes on the roll, but only one such willpower may be spent per roll.

The Sun Unbound-

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This Charm Replaces the Magnanimous Unbound Sun in it's entirety.

The Sun embodies the four Virtues, but to do so requires an unmatched will. And therein lies a special power, one that he is loath to use. Discarding his attachment to the four Virtues by Suppressing them all(or suppressing the remaining ones if he has already suppressed one or more in the scene, and he may suppress all of them at once for no additional cost while using this charm) and spending 100 motes and 10wp(uncommitted), the Unconquered Sun seems to unravel, starting with the fulcrums, though to careful watchers it looks as if he is discarding an outer shell, revealing a indistinct fiery form.

The Transformation is much more internal than that, however. Much like when he sacrifices some of his power by suppressing one virtue in order to keep another up, now he sacrifices all of his power and lesser beliefs in service to his most core: his motivation. In doing so, he grows in power, but is undeniably less than he was before, becoming something akin to a automata, only concerned with his one goal: to Protect Creation. He needs to make no virtue checks, as such things are meaningless, and as such losses access to all virtue abilities. Additionally, while this charm is active, orders from a Primordial or Yozi are considered absolute: only if they would result in Danger to Creation(and thus conflict with his motivation) may he ignore them, treating them as unacceptable orders.

While this charm is active, he loses access to all 4 of his fulcrums completely, even those abilities tied to them that are not virtue keyworded. In addition, he counts as having no intimacies, nor may any be imposed on him or be formed by his or any other's actions. Being of perfect will, he can only hold one goal and desire inside his heart.

Upon taking this form his temporary willpower pool is filled to 10 if it was lower. All actions he takes that would cost a willpower have their costs reduced by 1, to a minimum of 0, and on his action he may reflexively spend a maximum of one mote in order to regenerate one willpower, in addition to any Stunt Rewards he would gain, but he cannot go above 20, his maximum due to Reserves of Will.

He has no health levels: for he is now only essence and will. However, attacks can still damage him. Any attack that would deal at least one level of damage in step 10 of combat instead drains one temporary willpower, in addition to draining motes equal to twice the levels of bashing done, five times the levels of lethal done, and 10 times the levels of aggravated. If the Unbound Sun would be reduced to 0 Willpower, at the beginning of his next action he collapses back to his normal state, ending this charm. He is not able to regenerate 1wp in such a case. He is rendered incapacitated, and remains so until the next Dawn, if given time to recuperate.

Social attacks can work, but by spending 1wp he renders all such attacks unacceptable orders for 1 tick, perfectly negating them. He may not use this is the attack ties into his motivation, and attacks from Primordials bypass this perfect as a flaw of invulnerability.

If he willingly ends the charm, he simply returns to his normal state on his action. For each willpower that he is below maximum, he takes one level of Aggravated damage.

After leaving the form, the All of the Sun's intimacies count as one scene away from being eroded, excepting his intimacy and addition to the Games of Divinity. In addition, his virtues remain suppressed for one week per scene the charm was active. Suitable acts of contrition can unsuppress the virtues, but only if they are truly epic acts. He may not reactivate this charm until each of his virtues has reactivated.

He gains the following charms in this form:

Perfection of Will-For any action that does not oppose his motivation, he may spend one mote to gain his current temporary willpower in dice, or half that number in successes. This counts as an excellency with regards to Dice caps.

The Fires of High Noon- Though his only goal in this form is to protect creation, it's glory is such that nothing is safe from it. As a permanent effect, the Sun in this form projects a field 6 miles in diameter. All those inside this field are subject to sweltering heat, as if in High noon on the Desert. In addition to the normal effects of such, including fatigue penalties and the like, all those who are in the area at the start of a scene reflexively makes Stamina+Resistance roll to withstand the blistering heat, the difficulty supernaturally raised to 5. Those who fail take an internal penalty of 10 to all non-reflexive actions, in addition to the damage. This occurs once per scene. Within 3 miles, the heat is even worse, as if one is standing in a Kiln. The environmental effect now does 4L/Action, difficulty once again set to 5, and inflicts the same penalty if one fails. If one is within half a mile of the Unbound Sun, it as if one approached the Sun itself. It does 10A/Action, Difficulty 5, and inflicting the same penalty.

miles in diameter. In this field, all objects are subject to an enviromental effect dealing XXXX.

Thoughts and justifications:

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Before, he was very binary. Now, while not perfectly invincible, he has access to about 20 perfect defenses, more if he can stunt.

This other Form, well, I liked the idea that their was, essentially, a fifth Fulcrum, that of Willpower. One that gives great power, but using it is a grave danger to all.

[Dragnar]

Ok, two major things:

Replaced-Aegis of Unconquered Might: While his Temperance is unbroken, he is immune to all negative effects that carry a keyword. If broken, he may still call upon this fulcrum's power, paying 6 motes to ignore one instance of such an effect.

First, this is... not good. I see what you MEAN for it to do, but... well, let me put it this way. Excellencies have the keyword "Combo-Ok". And attacks are negative effects. You really need to specify WHICH keywords this defends against, as pretty much every charm carries at least one. I assume what you want is more along the lines of it blocking Shaping, Crippling, Poison, or any of the various Social keywords. Unfortunately, you're going to have to specify.

Second: Magnanimous Unbound Sun is generally regarded as a very bad idea. Sol is perfection, and he is Virtue incarnate. It is from the Virtues that he draws his power, and REMOVING that should not be a powerup. The fifth fulcrum thing is fine, and makes sense. But any alternate form should probably be accessible only with NO virtues suppressed, not all of them.

[Tavar]

MEAN for it to do, but... well, let me put it this way. Excellencies have the keyword "Combo-Ok". And attacks are negative effects. You really need to specify WHICH keywords this defends against, as pretty much every charm carries at least one. I assume what you want is more along the lines of it blocking Shaping, Crippling, Poison, or any of the various Social keywords. Unfortunately, you're going to have to specify.

Ah, yeah, it's supposed to say something along the lines of it blocking the various keyword defense stuff. Rough draft an all, and there have been a couple revisions. Must have messed up while updating at some point.

Second: Magnanimous Unbound Sun is generally regarded as a very bad idea. Sol is perfection, and he is Virtue incarnate. It is from the Virtues that he draws his power, and REMOVING that should not be a powerup. The fifth fulcrum thing is fine, and makes sense. But any alternate form should probably be accessible only with NO virtues suppressed, not all of them.

Different interpretations, I guess. I remember reading a post on the White Wolf boards that inspired this, actually, though it was some time ago. The idea that the virtues do give him power, but also restrain and focus that power. That, if he's willing to go all out, he can essentially let the four other fulcrums go, leaving the fifth one unfettered.

Remember, though he is perfection, his current virtues do more to hinder that perfection than enhance it. They lead him to want to be a part of the world, to have interactions and such. But those can end up hindering his one true goal. The Unbound Sun represents throwing away everything about himself besides that one, pure goal. And, while it is strong, it comes at a great cost. That part is one of the more unfinished aspects.

[Gensh]

I like that you actually used the fifth fulcrum sidebar where the Ink Monkeys version didn't. Just going to note two things: Dragnar is right in that Sol's defining feature is Virtue, and the canon excuse for him dropping his fulcrums is kind of simhata-crap. The second is that Devil-Tigers count as full-blown Primordials for all intents and purposes, so they could play the "stop hitting yourself" game as long as Creation isn't specifically in danger.

[Tavar]

I like that you actually used the fifth fulcrum sidebar where the Ink Monkeys version didn't. Just going to note two things: Dragnar is right in that Sol's defining feature is Virtue, and the canon excuse for him dropping his fulcrums is kind of simhata-crap. The second is that Devil-Tigers count as full-blown Primordials for all intents and purposes, so they could play the "stop hitting yourself" game as long as Creation isn't specifically in danger.

Regarding the Devil Tiger thing: I'm not quite sure if they would count for this, though I guess that depends on if they need Cosmic Transcendence of (you) to do so. If they do, however, and I think they might, that's by design.

Of course, another thing that apparently I cut during revision processes was that anything that would result in him direct harm to himself would also be considered a danger to Creation. Oh, and remember, it's not that if Creation is in danger that he can ignore it, it's if the action would result in Creation being placed in Danger that he can.

Regarding the Virtues....well, why? I think the idea of the Sun unleashing a greater power by abandoning his virtues has merit. What's your position?

[Gensh]

Regarding the Devil Tiger thing: I'm not quite sure if they would count for this, though I guess that depends on if they need Cosmic Transcendence of (you) to do so. If they do, however, and I think they might, that's by design.

DTs are explicitly forbidden from taking Cosmic Transcendence. I presume no method was given for them to open their Charmsets specifically so that no one else could either, at least until they died and were replaced by a non-DT member of their personal caste.

Of course, another thing that apparently I cut during revision processes was that anything that would result in him direct harm to himself would also be considered a danger to Creation. Oh, and remember, it's not that if Creation is in danger that he can ignore it, it's if the action would result in Creation being placed in Danger that he can.

I meant that their commanding Sol to do silly things during a time of crisis would indirectly put Creation in danger since its primary protector would be otherwise occupied. If D&D taught me anything, it's that you always need to be on the lookout for loopholes with these sorts of broad effects.

Regarding the Virtues....well, why? I think the idea of the Sun unleashing a greater power by abandoning his virtues has merit. What's your position?

As previously mentioned, Sol was explicitly created by the Dragon's Shadow alone to serve as the perfect incarnation of Virtue. Certainly, betraying himself is in the Dragon's purview, but such an imperfection would be annihilated by the perfect flames of the Daystar. Sol is of the Empyreal Chaos because of the flame, and he and the Daystar awakened at once, but his fundamental construction belongs to the Dragon's ideal of a perfect Hero alone. For him to be able to give that up simply because he was also of the Shadow makes no sense; he certainly wouldn't be the perfect incarnation of Virtue then. And of course that's not even mentioning that he created the fulcrums after the war was over. Certainly, you could say that he always possessed them, but they were initially internal, but that's mere speculation.

Though in all fairness, I hate Sol's current writeup in its entirety, so...

[Tavar]

DTs are explicitly forbidden from taking Cosmic Transcendence. I presume no method was given for them to open their Charmsets specifically so that no one else could either, at least until they died and were replaced by a non-DT member of their personal caste.

Right. I meant that I wasn't sure if they needed it to count as a full primordial(not too up on DT's). I would say that they do count, however, and that is by design.

Sorry, that sentence did have a few unclear pronouns.

I meant that their commanding Sol to do silly things during a time of crisis would indirectly put Creation in danger since its primary protector would be otherwise occupied. If D&D taught me anything, it's that you always need to be on the lookout for loopholes with these sorts of broad effects.

But that's not a loophole. If they order him to do something, and it would result in danger to Creation, he can ignore it. A Primordial orders him to go and sit off in a corner for 1000 years, and does this while an invasion is going on. Well, the Sun, knowing that following the order would result in Danger to Creation, ignores it.

As previously mentioned, Sol was explicitly created by the Dragon's Shadow alone to serve as the perfect incarnation of Virtue. Certainly, betraying himself is in the Dragon's purview, but such an imperfection would be annihilated by the perfect flames of the Daystar. Sol is of the Empyreal Chaos because of the flame, and he and the Daystar awakened at once, but his fundamental construction belongs to the Dragon's ideal of a perfect Hero alone. For him to be able to give that up simply because he was also of the Shadow makes no sense; he certainly wouldn't be the perfect incarnation of Virtue then. And of course that's not even mentioning that he created the fulcrums after the war was over. Certainly, you could say that he always possessed them, but they were initially internal, but that's mere speculation.

Though in all fairness, I hate Sol's current writeup in its entirety, so...

Sol was created to be the Ultimate foe of the Dragon's Shadow. That Primordial lacks a motivation, but he does have virtues, stunted as they are. The Sun Unbound is thus his true foil: not the virtuous man, to oppose his weak ones, but the many with that one clear goal, who can surpass his virtues in pursuit of it, instead of being ruled by the lack of them.

And, personally, I think they were internal before hand. True, they didn't have all their powers originally, but they 5 fulcrums in this version are a natural part of him, though they are not always the same shape, just as he has changed.

As for not liking the write up, well, the mechanics of it weren't great, but I think the flavor was excellent. It's rather annoying to continually have "Ultimate God of light and Goodness, who can't intervene and solve the problems because....uh...well... Because!"

[Lord Raziere]

Well I still like the "Sol is the ED's greatest lie" interpretation: after all, the truly virtuous man wouldn't be able to suppress any of their virtues at all and would always follow them, and having a super form that abandons all virtue is just the cherry on top, all apart of ED's design. After all, if Sol does indeed use Magnanimous Unbound Sun, he is proving ED right by abandoning virtue, and demonstrating that the virtues are a lie, a falsehood of good we use to project to others while underneath it all we just want selfish desires.

Why else do you think Sol is so adamant about not using that form?

But still, the lie shows. Sol suppresses his Temperance constantly. A truly virtuous man wouldn't suppress any virtue at all.

[Tavar]

A couple points: Firstly, this isn't the modern definition of Virtue, in which they are uniformly positive. It's the Aristotelian version, in which the Excess can be just as bad as the lack.

Secondly, the virtues conflict, most especially at the high ratings and restrictions that the Unconquered Sun functions under. To say that he cannot suppress any virtue means that he cannot act.

Thirdly, to make the Sun unable to suppress virtues means that he is little more than an automaton. That is neither good for the game, nor the character.


Fourthly, the Sun doesn't reveal that virtues are the lie. He reveals that they are merely accesorary, that one does not have to stoop to the Ebon Dragon's level. Remember, he doesn't abandon his motivation in this form, or take on any selfish desires. In point of fact he abandon's his selfish desires, in pursuit of his goal.

Finally, well, I dislike the extreme hate leveled at the Unconquered Sun because he isn't some kind of God/Jesus analogue, and is in fact his own character.

[Andreaz]

Sol is the god of Perfection and virtues. Above all, he's perfect. Then he's virtuous.
Being virtuous means that he is, at the same time, arrogant, kind, collected, driven, brave, lustful, stubborn and needlessly conservative.

He's above that. His virtues are an empowerment, not an enabler.

[Rikandur Azebol]

A couple points: Firstly, this isn't the modern definition of Virtue, in which they are uniformly positive. It's the Aristotelian version, in which the Excess can be just as bad as the lack.

The Exalted Virtues seem to balance each other. Valor with Compassion and Temperance with Conviction. And they basically dictate how You interact with everything in Creation.

Both UCS and Stevie Dragon are prime examples. One who tries to embody EVERY virtue and other who tries to IGNORE them completely.

Secondly, the virtues conflict, most especially at the high ratings and restrictions that the Unconquered Sun functions under. To say that he cannot suppress any virtue means that he cannot act.

I disagree, for someone with so many dots of Wits and Intelligence as UCS should be able to harmonize his Virtues in as perfect way as possible.

If normal mortals from Exaltverse can, then UCS should do it automatically.

Thirdly, to make the Sun unable to suppress virtues means that he is little more than an automaton. That is neither good for the game, nor the character.

You know, it was his design ... to act like automaton.

Fourthly, the Sun doesn't reveal that virtues are the lie. He reveals that they are merely accesorary, that one does not have to stoop to the Ebon Dragon's level. Remember, he doesn't abandon his motivation in this form, or take on any selfish desires. In point of fact he abandon's his selfish desires, in pursuit of his goal.

Were this true I would clap my hands. But UCS does it backwards. He abandons Creation in peril to play Games.

Finally, well, I dislike the extreme hate leveled at the Unconquered Sun because he isn't some kind of God/Jesus analogue, and is in fact his own character.

I admit to having huge distaste towards UCS, mainly because all what authors wrote about him is indicating that "UCS is EB's most perfect lie" interpretation to be the most correct. And it's enough bad in Exaltverse to reveal that "moral cornestone" of Creation is just another sham.

[Lord Raziere]

A couple points: Firstly, this isn't the modern definition of Virtue, in which they are uniformly positive. It's the Aristotelian version, in which the Excess can be just as bad as the lack.

Secondly, the virtues conflict, most especially at the high ratings and restrictions that the Unconquered Sun functions under. To say that he cannot suppress any virtue means that he cannot act.

Thirdly, to make the Sun unable to suppress virtues means that he is little more than an automaton. That is neither good for the game, nor the character.


Fourthly, the Sun doesn't reveal that virtues are the lie. He reveals that they are merely accesorary, that one does not have to stoop to the Ebon Dragon's level. Remember, he doesn't abandon his motivation in this form, or take on any selfish desires. In point of fact he abandon's his selfish desires, in pursuit of his goal.

Finally, well, I dislike the extreme hate leveled at the Unconquered Sun because he isn't some kind of God/Jesus analogue, and is in fact his own character.

1. Yes, but on the flipside, suppressing a virtue doesn't seem to have any moderation on how suppressed the virtue is- you don't suppress the virtue down to 3 for say, but suppress it entirely. So when Sol suppresses his Temperance, he is suppressing all of it, causing by Aristotle's definition, a deficiency of Virtue.
You have seen the dire effects this has had upon all of Heaven and Creation by doing so; by being completely untemperate, giving in fully to pleasure, he has neglected everything else and the so-called "perfect being" has thus caused to make everything only worse with his neglect.

2. Seems a much simpler explanation for how he can't intervene in everything don't you think? and an example to the players about how too much virtues will leave you unable to act, no?

3. I fail to see how Sol was ever human, or was ever supposed to be. He is the living embodiment of Virtue. He should get all the drawbacks that it entails, if he is truly virtuous. However he is not truly virtuous, as he can suppress his virtues.

4. Throwing away the virtues is stooping to the Ebon Dragons level, because the Ebon Dragon already does throw away all virtue in pursuit of his goal: to screw everyone over. and any goal that isn't selfish is by definition selfless and therefore an act of Compassion, therefore either way he wouldn't be abandoning at least one virtue.
However since he does throw away all virtue, including Compassion, it is still no better than the Ebon Dragon's natural state, and since the UCS wouldn't have any Compassion in his MUS form, his goals would be selfish, no matter what it is. and therefore no different from the Ebon Dragon

5. When did I ever say that? I said nothing of the sort. I am arguing on philosophical grounds. such figures have nothing to do with this. I wouldn't ever want him to be such an analogue; how then could he awesomely fight things if he was a pacifist analogue? Would make no sense.
Its just that I currently have an interpretation of him that seems to make sense to me and am arguing for it. I don't hate Sol for it- in fact I would feel sorry for Sol if he ever found out. Assuming he is ignorant. He might in fact be constantly staying in his Four-Arm form keeping to his Virtues as much as possible to try and prove the Ebon Dragon wrong, the poor sun god.
I mean why hate Sol for the way he was created? It makes just as much sense as hating someone for being born with a certain hair color. He may be the Ebon Dragon's most perfect lie, but that doesn't mean he WANTS to be.

[Tavar]

The Exalted Virtues seem to balance each other. Valor with Compassion and Temperance with Conviction. And they basically dictate how You interact with everything in Creation.

The thing is, they don't really balance each other. If you could use a virtue that has the same rating as another to ignore one, or to act as though you had lesser virtues, that would be true. But that's not how it works at all. If you have Valor 5 and Compassion 5 and they conflict, you must chose to suppress one, or be unable to act. That's not balance, that's elements pulling in opposite directions

I disagree, for someone with so many dots of Wits and Intelligence as UCS should be able to harmonize his Virtues in as perfect way as possible.

If normal mortals from Exaltverse can, then UCS should do it automatically.

Normal mortals don't. Normal mortals have virtues rated at 2 and 3, and even then have conflicts. The Unconquered Sun's virtues are technically rated at 10. Look at the problems that a Solar with all Virtues at 5 would have: they'd have to supress virtues often in order to do very simple things that are part of many people's lives.

You know, it was his design ... to act like automaton.

No, it wasn't. If the Primordials had wanted automatons, they could have done it. It would have required more work on their part, however, so they took a short cut by making self-aware beings and utterly enslaving them.

Were this true I would clap my hands. But UCS does it backwards. He abandons Creation in peril to play Games.

That's incredibly out of context. I'm referring to the the Unbound Sun idea, or more generally the idea that the Sun abandoning his virtues proves the Ebon Dragon right: something not really supported anywhere.

I admit to having huge distaste towards UCS, mainly because all what authors wrote about him is indicating that "UCS is EB's most perfect lie" interpretation to be the most correct. And it's enough bad in Exaltverse to reveal that "moral cornestone" of Creation is just another sham.

I've had many discussions about this topic, and the best evidence I've seen put forward for the interpretation is that such an interpretation would be toxic to the game, ruining all the enjoyment, and thus it must be true. Do you have a better one?

Also, virtue does not equal moral in Exalted.

1. Yes, but on the flipside, suppressing a virtue doesn't seem to have any moderation on how suppressed the virtue is- you don't suppress the virtue down to 3 for say, but suppress it entirely. So when Sol suppresses his Temperance, he is suppressing all of it, causing by Aristotle's definition, a deficiency of Virtue.
You have seen the dire effects this has had upon all of Heaven and Creation by doing so; by being completely untemperate, giving in fully to pleasure, he has neglected everything else and the so-called "perfect being" has thus caused to make everything only worse with his neglect.

I'd argue that things only really became worse through his absence after the great Contagion. And even that might not be entirely true: he could have acted before, but in doing so he would have broken his word, and more importantly likely doomed the world as Solar turned against Solar.

2. Seems a much simpler explanation for how he can't intervene in everything don't you think? and an example to the players about how too much virtues will leave you unable to act, no?

Yes, but it's also simpler still so say that he never actually existed, and it's all just a lie. But both positions are horrible from a game line perspective, especially since it means that everything about the Sun is simply propaganda, that he's utterly useless. It would make him worse than the Ebon Dragon, and that's quite the accomplishment.

3. I fail to see how Sol was ever human, or was ever supposed to be. He is the living embodiment of Virtue. He should get all the drawbacks that it entails, if he is truly virtuous. However he is not truly virtuous, as he can suppress his virtues.

Where did I say Human? I said character. One is much broader than the other. And, frankly, if he can't supress his virtues, then he can't do anything. That is a bad character, and frankly, a worse direction for the setting to go. Hell, it's basically no different than the current situation, except that in this new one, there's no chance to fix things.

4. Throwing away the virtues is stooping to the Ebon Dragons level, because the Ebon Dragon already does throw away all virtue in pursuit of his goal: to screw everyone over. and any goal that isn't selfish is by definition selfless and therefore an act of Compassion, therefore either way he wouldn't be abandoning at least one virtue.
However since he does throw away all virtue, including Compassion, it is still no better than the Ebon Dragon's natural state, and since the UCS wouldn't have any Compassion in his MUS form, his goals would be selfish, no matter what it is. and therefore no different from the Ebon Dragon

Note, he doesn't have Virtue 1 in this case. He has Virtue N/A, not meaning the standard higher than the normal scale, but that it can't be quantified, any more than someone can successfully give a real number answer to the square root of -1.

5. When did I ever say that? I said nothing of the sort. I am arguing on philosophical grounds. such figures have nothing to do with this. I wouldn't ever want him to be such an analogue; how then could he awesomely fight things if he was a pacifist analogue? Would make no sense.
Its just that I currently have an interpretation of him that seems to make sense to me and am arguing for it. I don't hate Sol for it- in fact I would feel sorry for Sol if he ever found out. Assuming he is ignorant. He might in fact be constantly staying in his Four-Arm form keeping to his Virtues as much as possible to try and prove the Ebon Dragon wrong, the poor sun god.
I mean why hate Sol for the way he was created? It makes just as much sense as hating someone for being born with a certain hair color. He may be the Ebon Dragon's most perfect lie, but that doesn't mean he WANTS to be.

That last one wasn't truly directed at you, but more at a very large trend I've seen, basically asking for him to be just that.

As for that interpretation....I don't like it. At all. I think it cheapens the story, and deliberatly twists the narrative to a very negative place.

I think the most interesting part is that it seems to be because people would rather have someone incapable of doing things, than have someone who is capable, but can also fail.

[Gensh]

Part of my problem with the idea of Sol abandoning Virtue is that it had originally seem that Willpower at character generation being based on Virtue seemed to be a metaphysical statement about the setting; for Sol to enter a form of pure Will, with no Virtue, is then contradictory. If Sol is to have a final form, then it should be one of transcendent Virtue. The Fulcrums should bind him to the Virtue of humans; without them, he returns to his original transhuman paradigm which loved the Dragon Kings for their sacrifices of human hearts. This paradigm would be conceptually similar to the tenets laid out by SWLIHN but functionally different; after all, Sol's Virtue is not fundamentally attached to some sort of hierarchy. Without the fulcrums, he should not become less Virtuous but merely less human, stripping away the physical and mental cloak he limits his Primordial-crafted spirit with.

As for his becoming of a Christ analogue, they probably should have thought out that story of him sacrificing himself for a single human better. It indicates a fundamental issue; he would have had to suppress his Temperance to do so. Incidentally, what has he been suppressing for most of the plot? Exactly: the description of Sol as a perfect incarnation of Virtue does not match his actions at all. I wouldn't mind it so much if I just disliked the character, but the inconsistency annoys me to no end.

You see, I came into the game rather late, shortly before Infernals were released. Have you been aware of this phenomenon: the difference between reading a series from the beginning giving an entirely different experience than reading it all at once? If you watch it from the beginning, then you have time to adapt, to think things over, and to formulate theories about aspects of the plot; you forget small details and mix canon with your own ideas. If you read it all at once, then certain issues come to light much more easily; "that's a huge plot hole," "why did this happen with no foreshadowing": these things become eye-stabbingly apparent. I experienced this latter reading; with the newer books, Creation seemed to get smaller and smaller; the mythic aspects of the game dwindled unto nothing as more and more things had to have definitive descriptions and stats. That Sol is a foe a prepared circle of E5 Solars can down singlehandedly is far more poisonous to the game than the idea that he is no more than the memory poison of the Ebon Dragon spread across heaven, because at least then hope and light may still exist in the hearts of the characters rather than "The King is Dead," a mechanical construct.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't know Gensh, I came into this game late as well. The first new book for me was Compass: Autocthonia.

To me, its looks like everything fits together. The mythic aspect isn't diminished to me. it just seems like a high fantasy make your own Song of Ice and Fire thing to me.
Heck, if I ever get around to it, my War of the Roseblack game will be based around knowing what everyone will do and allowing all these people to just start doing it all at the same time so that complete chaos ensues, thus allowing for totally epic war and chaos everywhere while the PC's struggle to fix things in the rising mayhem.

Well not exactly all at the same time. Its a three-parter after all, and it wouldn't be polite to anyone if I didn't give everyone a chance to act.

Edit: as for how such an interpretation is toxic, I do not see how. Honestly, at this point I'm beginning to take anything anyone says about Exalted's setting with a grain of salt. People react so passionately about it that I cannot trust anyone's interpretation of it anymore than the others. They are all acting as if every book has killed their lover and ate their dog repeatedly.

[Tavar]

Part of my problem with the idea of Sol abandoning Virtue is that it had originally seem that Willpower at character generation being based on Virtue seemed to be a metaphysical statement about the setting; for Sol to enter a form of pure Will, with no Virtue, is then contradictory.

Note that currently, Virtue and Willpower have been un-coupled. And their are beings with basically no virtues and yet do have willpower(Ebon Dragon).

As for his becoming of a Christ analogue, they probably should have thought out that story of him sacrificing himself for a single human better. It indicates a fundamental issue; he would have had to suppress his Temperance to do so. Incidentally, what has he been suppressing for most of the plot? Exactly: the description of Sol as a perfect incarnation of Virtue does not match his actions at all. I wouldn't mind it so much if I just disliked the character, but the inconsistency annoys me to no end.

You know what that's a response to, right? Before that, the consensus appears to have been that he was a utter *******, with no redeeming qualities.

Never mind that he's had actions taken by him or in his name that don't fit that image: the heart ripping, for one.

Really, I think it speaks to how limited our views are if one act of sacrifice means that he's now a Jesus analogue. Especially when that image is to show that suppressing the virtues can be the morally right thing to do sometimes, and wrong at others.

You see, I came into the game rather late, shortly before Infernals were released. Have you been aware of this phenomenon: the difference between reading a series from the beginning giving an entirely different experience than reading it all at once? If you watch it from the beginning, then you have time to adapt, to think things over, and to formulate theories about aspects of the plot; you forget small details and mix canon with your own ideas. If you read it all at once, then certain issues come to light much more easily; "that's a huge plot hole," "why did this happen with no foreshadowing": these things become eye-stabbingly apparent. I experienced this latter reading; with the newer books, Creation seemed to get smaller and smaller; the mythic aspects of the game dwindled unto nothing as more and more things had to have definitive descriptions and stats. That Sol is a foe a prepared circle of E5 Solars can down singlehandedly is far more poisonous to the game than the idea that he is no more than the memory poison of the Ebon Dragon spread across heaven, because at least then hope and light may still exist in the hearts of the characters rather than "The King is Dead," a mechanical construct.

See, before Glories I'm pretty sure it was assumed a prepared circle of Chargen solars could take down the Unconquered Sun. Remember, as a Solar Exalted, you have the potential to become the among the most powerful beings in the setting. Hell, it's stated that you're more powerful, that you should be able to kill pretty much anything in the setting, if you're willing to put your all into it.

[Andreaz]

Much of the confusion comes from these two little details:
1) "Virtue" associated to morals, "goodness".
2) The Unconquered Sun's embodiment of virtues meaning his powers revolve around them.



Well... They're both incorrect.

Virtues are impulses, urges, a barely describable feeling that nudges you to action and requires active effort to ignore.

And, as I said before, Sol is the god of "perfection" and "virtue". He does what he wants, his power beyond measure requiring him but to will it so. Then, on top of that, his virtues empower him further.
Without his virtues, his "power level" is infinity. With his virtues, it goes up to infinity +1


He does not "prove the Dragon right" by suppressing a virtue. He merely exerts his right and might as the Unconquered sun to do what he wants. Every time he chooses not to suppress a virtue, he is demonstrating his infinite capacity to exert his will over his own nature.

Unless you mean THAT "proves the dragon right". At such a level everything and anything "proves the dragon right".