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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    See, before Glories I'm pretty sure it was assumed a prepared circle of Chargen solars could take down the Unconquered Sun. Remember, as a Solar Exalted, you have the potential to become the among the most powerful beings in the setting. Hell, it's stated that you're more powerful, that you should be able to kill pretty much anything in the setting, if you're willing to put your all into it.

    And yet the First Age Dawn Caste get frequently killed by Ligier... I can only hope that with new edition we will get more consistent power level.

    The current mechanics are pretty easy - the Solar is in no way capable of taking 1k mote-pool monsters without utilization FoI; so i.e Adorjan, SWLiHN, Kimbery are beyond their power level.
    Last edited by Madwand; 2012-05-19 at 03:19 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
    And yet the First Age Dawn Caste get frequently killed by Ligier... I can only hope that with new edition we will get more consistent power level.

    The current mechanics are pretty easy - the Solar is in no way capable of taking 1k mote-pool monsters without utilization FoI; so i.e Adorjan, SWLiHN, Kimbery are beyond their power level.
    Remember that there's the Greater Flaws for the Primordials as well. The issue here is that while utilizing a flaw is an action the player can take, the UCS's power and weakness is currently all internal.


    And, well, at least one developer's said that Liger is about on par with the UCS. Or, more specifically, to use the UCS's stats for Liger's combat prowess.
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Note that currently, Virtue and Willpower have been un-coupled. And their are beings with basically no virtues and yet do have willpower(Ebon Dragon).
    While this is true, it is at least in part because of the mechanical issues that would come with a creature who has no Willpower (or 4, as the case may be). The way I see it is that he has perfectly deconstructed Virtue, reducing it into a secondary wp pool, that he might destroy it. As such, he lacks Conviction and through further ascendency lacks a Motivation altogether; his so-called Willpower is better described as Whimsy. Still, such is fanon, so I'll concede the point for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    You know what that's a response to, right? Before that, the consensus appears to have been that he was a utter *******, with no redeeming qualities.
    The main problem is that the authors had not provided any evidence to the contrary. The perfect guardian of Creation sat out a raksha invasion so that he wouldn't miss a turn at the Games? I'm not buying it. Adding in the hostage story is a nonsensical, entirely overblown apologetic gesture; of course it would confuse people and convince them that he was some sort of misunderstood martyr.

    And to be fair, when I first saw his picture in Core, I thought he looked like an a**hat before even reading anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Never mind that he's had actions taken by him or in his name that don't fit that image: the heart ripping, for one.

    Really, I think it speaks to how limited our views are if one act of sacrifice means that he's now a Jesus analogue. Especially when that image is to show that suppressing the virtues can be the morally right thing to do sometimes, and wrong at others.
    Again, the main issue is just that the hostage situation was so out of his established character that you had to do a double-take. It had all the subtlety of a Marvel/DC retcon, so it's unsurprising that some took it as such. Something like the story of Laashe would have been much more suitable to show that sometimes Virtue is a hindrance to be set aside. Though really the story of Laashe is a bad example - it further exacerbates the "Sol is an idiot" view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    See, before Glories I'm pretty sure it was assumed a prepared circle of Chargen solars could take down the Unconquered Sun. Remember, as a Solar Exalted, you have the potential to become the among the most powerful beings in the setting. Hell, it's stated that you're more powerful, that you should be able to kill pretty much anything in the setting, if you're willing to put your all into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
    And yet the First Age Dawn Caste get frequently killed by Ligier... I can only hope that with new edition we will get more consistent power level.

    The current mechanics are pretty easy - the Solar is in no way capable of taking 1k mote-pool monsters without utilization FoI; so i.e Adorjan, SWLiHN, Kimbery are beyond their power level.
    This is what I believe is the most toxic aspect to the setting as it stands now. Other variables aside, you are one of the Solar Exalted, the greatest heroes the world has ever known, unconquerable and immortal. The world itself bends to you whims, and so long as you keep faith, you will wait out the darkness. This is all true; however, to go it alone is a fool's errand.

    Let's take a conservative estimate and say there were 30 Primordials in the War. That's 10 Solars, 10 Lunars, 3 Sidereals, and 333 Dragonblooded against a single Primordial, souls and all. This army has at least basic knowledge of their foe's weaknesses, including which soul is fetich, and they all bear artifacts confiscated from gods and crafted by the jadeborn. Much of the first circles were likely broken against countless dragon king sacrifices.

    That is what it took to down a single titan. And Sol is greater. Five Solars can take him down alone? Ha!
    Last edited by Gensh; 2012-05-19 at 05:51 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #424

    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Depends on the Solars in question. Solars are ultimately greater than the Incarna can be. And it's not that Ignis Divine is more than a Primordial, it's that he was made for a very narrow purpose. A Primordial might not be defined within a concept quite as martial as his and be somewhat easy if it tried to face him battle. A more Martial Primordial it's different, though he'll probably still come out on top.

    Geoff's original statement, if memory serves, about Ignis Divine and Solars was in effect a circle of well rounded Essence 5 Solars.
    Last edited by SiderealDreams; 2012-05-19 at 06:53 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Wait a minute…

    the Yozis got away with giving the Green Sun Princes Urges to point them in the direction of "Reclamation" right?

    Why couldn't the original Incarnae done something similar and built in things that would make the original Exalts fight the Primordials like an Urge, and an Urge to rule Creation wisely during the First Age, when the were dying and reincarnating? an Urge like "Protect and Rule Creation Wisely" or something like that, why couldn't they have done that?

    Why didn't they do that? I know Exalted is all about wielding power and such, but with great power comes great responsibility, aren't the Exalts responsible for all that they have done with their power?
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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Any Urge the Incarnae could imbed in the Exaltation would be a flaw against the geas that the Primordials could abuse.

    If they can command the UCS to Urge the Solars to obey the Primordials, then that's an issue. That's why the Yozi have to leave Free Will to the GSP, and leave the Urge to the demon inside the Exaltation.


    So instead, the Incarnae chose a bunch of mortals that had the appropriate Motivations or could be convinced to take them up.

    Once the War started, Exaltation meant Kill or Be Killed. There was no sitting out the fight when the Primordials wanted to make sure you didn't change your mind later.
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  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Well, one option is that, so far, the only beings who have urges are those directly using a Primordial charmset: the Primordials themselves, the Akuma, and the Green Sun Princes. Perhaps the urge is one of the things that all users of a Primordial charmset must have, or at the very least all users with free access to such charms.

    Additionally, there's quite a bit regarding the Exaltations that the Incarana don't have control over by design: remember, they were worried that if they did have more direct control, that the Primordials could somehow use them to shut down the rebellion. The Yozi are not under such a restriction regarding the Green Sun Princes, and in fact have set things up so that they have much more control over matters than most other factions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lochar View Post
    So instead, the Incarnae chose a bunch of mortals that had the appropriate Motivations or could be convinced to take them up.

    Once the War started, Exaltation meant Kill or Be Killed. There was no sitting out the fight when the Primordials wanted to make sure you didn't change your mind later.
    Additionally, the deal offered to Humanity was pretty sweet: at the time they were at the absolute bottom of the food chain. If they won, then they'd be moved to the very top. Many heroic individuals as Exalted defines the term would agree to those terms.
    Last edited by Tavar; 2012-05-19 at 08:21 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Luna's Handy Heart Mirror

    In the early aeons of Creation, when the nature of Reality was still being defined, the Wyld existed. Against the constant threat of its encroachment, the powers of the Primordials and the River of Torments were sufficient, but they were unwilling to have their sport interrupted with the deeds necessary to keep the Wyld at bay.

    So two entities were created from the myths they had spawned and claimed in the Wyld itself. One to impose perfect order and thus destruction upon the Wyld. One to become the Wyld and change it into something harmless.

    Both tried, wielding powers beyond mortal comprehension, and gained the names they are now known by.

    Both failed, for different reasons.

    The first was the epitome of perfection in all virtues, which being few and limited by Creation's mandates contradicted one another and forced inaction, imperfection, or both. The second was so versatile that it discovered ever new applications for the paltry abilities of Creation, until finally discovering Ride (Gaia) and never looking back.

    Still, Creation was protected for a time as the denizens of the Wyld sought to understand the workings of its guardians, that they might be overcome all the faster. Thus was the Mirror formed, a device by which the Fair Folk sought to use their link to the Lady of the Wyld in order to reflect, and capture, the glory and might of the Guardian of Creation.

    Obviously, the Mirror is not quite ready yet. Still, in the hands of a talented Raksha, it can replicate and outdo the fundamental quality of the Sun, conveying contradictory and all-encompassing virtues upon those who view themselves in its image.

    The most skilled of the Fair Folk, favored by the Unshaped or Creation itself, can draw further power from the Mirror and allow their charges to transcend the restrictions placed upon the stuff of Reality. To these chosen beings, blazing with immeasureable amounts of every virtue, true understanding is granted - and they can follow, ignore, or redirect their virtues in any way they desire.

    3-dot Oneiromancy
    Assumption of Derams and Passion - the Mirror is a fundamental expression of willpower.
    Manacles of Virtue (x4) - those looking at themselves in the Mirror gain a variable (but generally large) number of dots in all their Virtues.

    Mechanics: in the hands of a creation level Worker with Essence 5 and All Consuming God Monster Stance, this device can convey up to 7 dots in each virtue. When applied to a suitably virtuous Exalt, it's easy to get past 10 in some (or all) virtues. Even mortals can go up to 9 or so.

    To educate more than a few people at a time, increase the rating of the Mirror and take a larger Assumption. As a 5-dot version, you're affecting small nations.

    To augment the effect so that even mortals (and TED) can benefit from virtues over 10, give the Mirror to an Unshaped - their Emanations can reach Essence 10 fairly easily, so (with Heart Stopping Numinous Power) that's a gain of up to 12 in aech virtue.

    To acheive transcendence on a small scale, find a Lunar, Sidereal, or Eclipsoid and grant them Aidvata Harmony. Besides further increasing their virtues and thus making it easier to go past 10, they gain the ability to suppress or ignore their virtues with no penalty. Thus, a well trained Sidereal can display greater virtue than TUS and the ability to ignore said virtue when inconvenient without side effects. Obviously a superior Steward for the job.

    If you want to allow everyone to transcend, just have a lot of Workers on hand usnig Assumption of the Person's Heart and Aidvata Harmony. If you're low on Workers, use a single one with a large area Assumption, programmed to activate Assumption of the Person's Heart and Aidvata Harmony.

    And that, children, is how you get a more sensible set of virtues implemented in Creation.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Lochar View Post
    Any Urge the Incarnae could imbed in the Exaltation would be a flaw against the geas that the Primordials could abuse.

    If they can command the UCS to Urge the Solars to obey the Primordials, then that's an issue. That's why the Yozi have to leave Free Will to the GSP, and leave the Urge to the demon inside the Exaltation.


    So instead, the Incarnae chose a bunch of mortals that had the appropriate Motivations or could be convinced to take them up.

    Once the War started, Exaltation meant Kill or Be Killed. There was no sitting out the fight when the Primordials wanted to make sure you didn't change your mind later.
    Well, why couldn't the Incarnae and Lytek have secretly modified the Exaltations by implanting something very similar to an Urge slowly over time, to help make sure they stayed true to their responsibilities after the War ended? Sure this wouldn't have worked for the Golden Hero Vassals but they were minority of Solars while the majority would've have a new responsibility to carry out their Exalted duties to keep the world safe and not to dally about, abusing their power and such?
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  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Part of my problem with the idea of Sol abandoning Virtue is that it had originally seem that Willpower at character generation being based on Virtue seemed to be a metaphysical statement about the setting; for Sol to enter a form of pure Will, with no Virtue, is then contradictory. If Sol is to have a final form, then it should be one of transcendent Virtue.
    Sol's final, greatest form is his default form.

    Take, say, a hypothetical scenario where the Ebon Dragon uses Black Mirror Shintai on the Unconquered Sun and throws down with him (sans geas, presumably, this is a hypothetical). The Ebon Dragon suppresses all of his Virtues (because, y'know, Ebon Dragon) and busts out Magnanimous Unbound Sun. Sol, facing the antithesis of everything he is, is armed with all four of his Virtues.

    Sol curbstomps the Shadowed Sun. When the Unconquered Sun whips out his "true" form, he is weaker then he is when he stays true to his Virtues.

    When he takes on the form of the Unbound Sun, he weakens and betrays himself.

    Exactly: the description of Sol as a perfect incarnation of Virtue does not match his actions at all. I wouldn't mind it so much if I just disliked the character, but the inconsistency annoys me to no end.
    Sol has never been the incarnation of perfect Virtue, because he's not a Virtuebot.

    He has super-Virtue powers, and he is almost certainly the most Virtuous (big V) being in the setting, but he is also capable of making choices, including bad ones. He can choose to run away from a fight, not intervene to stop suffering, or even turn his back on Creation. He is perfectly capable of being inconsistent, especially in matters where he has to choose which Virtue to suppress.

    the mythic aspects of the game dwindled unto nothing as more and more things had to have definitive descriptions and stats.
    Well, here's the problem with this.

    You are playing a circle of Solars who are facing an apocalyptic, world-shaking threat. Ebby escaped, Sol needing some sense smacked into him, whatever.

    So, alright, how do you face them? I am not begrudging anyone who wants to play freeform, but any mechanical game (from Risus to Hybrid) needs mechanical representation for the appropriate stuff, with a keyword there being "appropriate". In Call of Cthulhu, Cthulhu eats 1d6 investigators around. He doesn't need stats there. In Exalted, he needs a full stat block so the players can punch his green face right off if they fight him.

    In Exalted, Sol, Malfeas, and the entire upper tier of the setting need stats, or at least a suggestion of how to stat them, because the PCs are expected to eventually get to level where they can face them and win.

    That Sol is a foe a prepared circle of E5 Solars can down singlehandedly is far more poisonous to the game than the idea that he is no more than the memory poison of the Ebon Dragon spread across heaven, because at least then hope and light may still exist in the hearts of the characters rather than
    That a group of powerful Solars can kill Sol is more of a statement about what the Solars are capable of than a statement about Sol's power.

    "The King is Dead," a mechanical construct.
    As previously mentioned, almost everything in the game needs a mechanical construct, or the capability to be represented as such.

    The King is Dead is a story, empowered by the reality-twisting magic of the Sidereal Exalted. One where a wise beggar is revealed to be the long lost son of the dying King. One where the sun goes dark and a new light is fixed into the sky. One where a brave young soldier is given responsibility far beyond what he expected. It's mechanical representation as Charm is there to help tell those stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    You know what that's a response to, right? Before that, the consensus appears to have been that he was a utter *******, with no redeeming qualities.
    Yeah, I remember the writers talking about how the portrayal of Sol as a pretty fundamentally decent being in Glories came from everywhere else portraying him as a jackass with few redeeming qualities. He's supposed to be someone that you would actually want to save.

    See, before Glories I'm pretty sure it was assumed a prepared circle of Chargen solars could take down the Unconquered Sun.
    Nope. The assumption has always been that an Essence 5 circle of Solars could take down the Sun. Maybe. If they got really lucky and were really prepared.

    IIRC, Nephilpal said they had upshot that to Essence 6 or so after statting out the Sun.
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  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Sol's final, greatest form is his default form.
    I understand that much. Sol with all his fulcrums is certainly invincible by definition. I'd still like him to have some sort of apocalyptic Quetzalcoatl form as a dramatic backup, though. I love me a good airship, but Dirigible Engine Daystar isn't exactly the way I'd have handled it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Sol has never been the incarnation of perfect Virtue, because he's not a Virtuebot.

    He has super-Virtue powers, and he is almost certainly the most Virtuous (big V) being in the setting, but he is also capable of making choices, including bad ones. He can choose to run away from a fight, not intervene to stop suffering, or even turn his back on Creation. He is perfectly capable of being inconsistent, especially in matters where he has to choose which Virtue to suppress.
    That's merely jumping to extremes. Sol is definitively the very incarnation of Virtue, for the Dragon could not give less than his very best in order to pass into existence. He, for the first and final time, created something of lasting value. That doesn't mean he cannot suppress his Virtues, but having suppressed Virtues for several hundred years is downright out of the question. I don't play Sol as a Virtue-bot - I actually play him as an even better puppetmaster than Kejak - but that's a story for another time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    Well, here's the problem with this.

    You are playing a circle of Solars who are facing an apocalyptic, world-shaking threat. Ebby escaped, Sol needing some sense smacked into him, whatever.

    So, alright, how do you face them? I am not begrudging anyone who wants to play freeform, but any mechanical game (from Risus to Hybrid) needs mechanical representation for the appropriate stuff, with a keyword there being "appropriate". In Call of Cthulhu, Cthulhu eats 1d6 investigators around. He doesn't need stats there. In Exalted, he needs a full stat block so the players can punch his green face right off if they fight him.

    In Exalted, Sol, Malfeas, and the entire upper tier of the setting need stats, or at least a suggestion of how to stat them, because the PCs are expected to eventually get to level where they can face them and win.
    It's a matter of proper guidelines, really. "This is Ligier when he's messing around. He's much more powerful when serious but can be fought to a standstill by a single Elder Sidereal." "Here are a few ideas for the Emissary; pick whichever one you like best or make your own." I don't like the whole "behold the Most High" route that was taken in Glories. It makes Sol lesser; it removes the fear of the unknown that's crucial to these sorts of encounters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    That a group of powerful Solars can kill Sol is more of a statement about what the Solars are capable of than a statement about Sol's power.
    What I dislike is that it's both inconsistent and continues to drive the Solaroid power creep. It devalues everything that has gone before. Sol can solo a Primordial, but despite needing several hundred Exalts to fell a titan, a mere circle can down Sol? What is this, Rock-Paper-Scissors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    As previously mentioned, almost everything in the game needs a mechanical construct, or the capability to be represented as such.

    The King is Dead is a story, empowered by the reality-twisting magic of the Sidereal Exalted. One where a wise beggar is revealed to be the long lost son of the dying King. One where the sun goes dark and a new light is fixed into the sky. One where a brave young soldier is given responsibility far beyond what he expected. It's mechanical representation as Charm is there to help tell those stories.
    My problem is that of the raksha; by codifying that story, you're limiting it. Everyone knows now that if Sol goes down, you can have a Sid replace him. Gone are the quests to consult with the Maidens or to demand Malfeas crown a new King of the Gods or for a Solar to rise by dint of his own heroic spirit. Sure, every ST can do such in his own game, but players are more likely to balk at him changing the rules than for him to have made up the rules wholesale. Rules exist to encourage good games, yet this one does the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm View Post
    IIRC, Nephilpal said they had upshot that to Essence 6 or so after statting out the Sun.
    I don't have so much of a problem with Elders downing Sol. After all, Exalts weren't supposed to surpass E5; such a circle is truly the best of the best. Glory to the Most High can die in a fire, though.

  12. - Top - End - #432

    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    What I dislike is that it's both inconsistent and continues to drive the Solaroid power creep. It devalues everything that has gone before. Sol can solo a Primordial, but despite needing several hundred Exalts to fell a titan, a mere circle can down Sol? What is this, Rock-Paper-Scissors?
    Ignis Divine would massacre certain Primordials without the aegis. Any non martially concept Primordial would probably be slaughtered and ones like The Ebon Dragon would get slaughtered even easier. The Exalts during the Primordial Wars were new, more than likely relatively low Essence, and not just fighting a Titan. But fighting loyal spirits, Primordials, devas, first circle races, other engineered races,etc. There's a reason it was Solars+Lunars+Sidereals+Dragonblooded and not just Solars.

    I don't have so much of a problem with Elders downing Sol. After all, Exalts weren't supposed to surpass E5; such a circle is truly the best of the best. Glory to the Most High can die in a fire, though.
    Nothing says Exalts were not supposed to surpass Essence 5.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    The thing is, they don't really balance each other. If you could use a virtue that has the same rating as another to ignore one, or to act as though you had lesser virtues, that would be true. But that's not how it works at all. If you have Valor 5 and Compassion 5 and they conflict, you must chose to suppress one, or be unable to act. That's not balance, that's elements pulling in opposite directions
    Not really, Valor demands You to defeat those opposing You. Compassion demands You to not slaughter people. Compromise between the two: Defeat those who oppose You, but don't murder them. Win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Normal mortals don't. Normal mortals have virtues rated at 2 and 3, and even then have conflicts. The Unconquered Sun's virtues are technically rated at 10. Look at the problems that a Solar with all Virtues at 5 would have: they'd have to supress virtues often in order to do very simple things that are part of many people's lives.
    Yeah, but technically Sol is super-smart. If I can come up with shaky balance when playing high Virtue characters, then "perfect" being should be doing it subconsciously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    No, it wasn't. If the Primordials had wanted automatons, they could have done it. It would have required more work on their part, however, so they took a short cut by making self-aware beings and utterly enslaving them.
    I joked there a little, and let's better not open can of worms. You compare Primordial creation of gods, mortals and whatever to humans enslaving other sentient beings. Och right, humans genocided everyone else in Exalteverse.

    Imagine self-aware program in Your computer, whose work is to perform maintenance of the system that You flood from time to time with junk-games and other stuff from the internet, hating Your guts for regular forcing it to work it's functions. That's gods for the Primordials.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    That's incredibly out of context. I'm referring to the the Unbound Sun idea, or more generally the idea that the Sun abandoning his virtues proves the Ebon Dragon right: something not really supported anywhere.
    How out of context ? I did pointed out how not acting during Balorian Crusade was against Sol's motivation. The reason Sol exists in first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    I've had many discussions about this topic, and the best evidence I've seen put forward for the interpretation is that such an interpretation would be toxic to the game, ruining all the enjoyment, and thus it must be true. Do you have a better one ?
    Yeah, UCS is what Shadow of All Things thought to be "most Virtuous of all" and I think we can agree that Primordials are weak-sauce outside of their specializations, right ? Thus I wager my lack of credibility on the fact that Ebby screwed up himself even when creating his beggining.

    Lashee, kicking UCS's behind ... and stripping him of the Unconquered title-privilege.

    UCS's acting with what might be seen "I'm only pretending to be Virtuous" way. Hostage situation. Games. Not fulfilling his Motivation.

    Seems more like Player Character who lost heart to his campaign than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Also, virtue does not equal moral in Exalted.
    From moral standpoint Primordials, Yozis and Neverborn are right. So let's drop morality out of context, ok ?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol View Post
    The Exalted Virtues seem to balance each other. Valor with Compassion and Temperance with Conviction.
    I've always seen it as Compassion-Conviction, Temperance-Valor. Compassion helps you empathize with other people, but having high Compassion in a world that is awfully hard; Conviction gives you the strength to endure it. High Conviction lets you get things done, but without Compassion you're likely to go too far. Valor makes you brave, but also hot-headed; Temperance helps you keep your cool. The restraint that Temperance gives isn't always called for, though — when kicking butt is called for, you want Valor to spur you to action!

    But I don't think there's any official word on this, and as Tavar points out there are no actual rules to let Virtues cancel out - you just have to find ways to reconcile them.


    On the Unconquered Sun: I think trying to establish any kind of OOC consensus on the Sun's nature is a mistake. We are told two things about the Unconquered Sun: that he is a being of immense power and great virtue, and that he has spent the past few millennia playing the Games of Divinity instead of helping Creation.

    There is a discrepancy between these two facts. It begs explanation—but the books should not give us one. I strongly feel that "why doesn't the Sun do something?" is one of those things that does not and should not have a definitive canon answer. It is something to explore in-game, one of the setting's great mysteries. It's up to the Storyteller to provide an explanation, or not, if they choose.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Remember that there's the Greater Flaws for the Primordials as well. The issue here is that while utilizing a flaw is an action the player can take, the UCS's power and weakness is currently all internal.
    I don't have RoSE right now, but I was under impression that Greater Flaw is Ebon Dragon only.. to give Exalts chance to fight him.


    On the Unconquered Sun: I think trying to establish any kind of OOC consensus on the Sun's nature is a mistake. We are told two things about the Unconquered Sun: that he is a being of immense power and great virtue, and that he has spent the past few millennia playing the Games of Divinity instead of helping Creation.
    We are also told that GoD are one of few things that can force UCS to supress his virtue, and that it was Primordials final revenge. I think that UCS adiction is great concept. It remainds me of bound Prometheus. Very mythical feel, with far-reaching implications.. as it is one of the problems that cannot be solved by violence.

    What I don't like is UCS being gofer for Solars when he ordered Auto-bot to geas Mountain Folks. It beg the question: why the most just and courageous being in setting is doing something so unfair, because of fear.
    Last edited by Madwand; 2012-05-20 at 08:29 AM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Why would you think only the Ebon Dragon has a Greater Flaw? For now, we can only assume that his write up in RotSE is pretty standard for all Primordials until we get stats for another one.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Snark, I paired these two virtues in the most "conflicting" manner. Conviction and Temperance are another pair of shoes, but just like You said. Virtues need not to conflict, they can complement and enrich each other.

    Unless You are Sol-bot after "common sense" lobotomy, that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
    I don't have RoSE right now, but I was under impression that Greater Flaw is Ebon Dragon only.. to give Exalts chance to fight him.
    And that is why I dislike this. It robs Players from the feeling of accomplishment the Solars of Primordial Usurpation give off. Exalts have plenty ways of fighting Ebby, just because he's Yozi, than giving them extra bonuses for no real reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
    We are also told that GoD are one of few things that can force UCS to supress his virtue, and that it was Primordials final revenge. I think that UCS adiction is great concept. It remainds me of bound Prometheus. Very mythical feel, with far-reaching implications.. as it is one of the problems that cannot be solved by violence.
    Perhaps, but also I would like to point out that there is little implied and said about the consequences UCS's negligence have on himself and others who play Games. And unless I'm mistaken Primordials can shake off the effects of the Games, for it was just it, amusement for them before they go forth after Shining Answer. Like Gaia did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
    What I don't like is UCS being fetch boy for Solars when he ordered Auto-bot to geas Mountain Folks. It beg the question: why the most just and courageous being in setting is doing something so unfair, because of fear.
    And so on and so forth. Exalted being selfish, petty little people is one thing but UCS acting in similar vein is aggravating when compared with his official writeup.

    My personal grudge goes not with Jadeborn unfair treatment (Note to self, never every Ally with Exalted ... no, not even then), but with complete and utterly ruthless tossing off of Dragon Kings. By UCS's noone the less. And flavor have it that they were created to worship him. They nearly died out for his cause, and ... he turned his back on them for no reason.

    With Jadeborn there is clumsy explaination, that he bullied Auto-nerd to prevent all-out war between Jadeborn defending themselves and Exalted attacking them out of fear for their position on the top of the food chain. Theoretically it saved lives.
    Last edited by Rikandur Azebol; 2012-05-20 at 07:47 AM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by SiderealDreams View Post
    Ignis Divine would massacre certain Primordials without the aegis. Any non martially concept Primordial would probably be slaughtered and ones like The Ebon Dragon would get slaughtered even easier. The Exalts during the Primordial Wars were new, more than likely relatively low Essence, and not just fighting a Titan. But fighting loyal spirits, Primordials, devas, first circle races, other engineered races,etc. There's a reason it was Solars+Lunars+Sidereals+Dragonblooded and not just Solars.
    Well, first of all, titan and primordial are synonyms. And it doesn't look like you've read what I said at all. With the immense number of dragon kings that died, coupled with the knowledge that they were all of decent Essence, we can assume that they and the weaker races and first circles on the Primordial side broke against each other. Except possibly the Lintha. Certainly, each aforementioned Exalt squad was facing down a soul pantheon, but that's partially the point.

    Firstly, the Sids worked under the Maidens in plain sight, collecting information on Primordial vulnerabilities for years, while the Solars and Lunars trained in secret, and the Dragonblooded bred to army size. Since Dragonblooded mature at the same rate as humans do, that was decades. And everyone was completely decked out in jadeborn-crafted swag when it finally came time to march to war. And by march to war, I mean unleash a surprise attack that crippled Primordial communication. Even still, the titans were loath to leave the Games, only really mobilizing once it was too late.

    Sure, the Exalts died in droves and had to reincarnate at E2, but I'm assuming that even surviving a fight with a Primordial is an experience to drive your skills to their peak. So all in all, it was not a fair fight at all because a fair fight would have been a curbstomp. Meanwhile, Sol is a monster capable of soloing titans. I cannot seriously believe that a circle could down him without at least as many things in their favor as they did in the War. The Guardian of Creation should not fall to the selfish whims of a few Exalts; it should take the whole of humanity to build the Tower of Babel, so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiderealDreams View Post
    Nothing says Exalts were not supposed to surpass Essence 5.
    Errata p.150 says that Elder Essence is beyond their design specifications. I think it mentions that even Autochthon was surprised about it somewhere else, but I don't have a page number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol View Post
    And that is why I dislike this. It robs Players from the feeling of accomplishment the Solars of Primordial Usurpation give off. Exalts have plenty ways of fighting Ebby, just because he's Yozi, than giving them extra bonuses for no real reason.
    This, not so much. In the perfect-or-die paradigm, a Greater Imperfection was a necessary mechanical construct because titans have kilomotes and would thus never reasonably be unable to spam PDs. Even now, I'm not sure they're unnecessary. Plus, without a Greater Imperfection, Malfeas and Cecelyne actually have flawless PDs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Why would you think only the Ebon Dragon has a Greater Flaw? For now, we can only assume that his write up in RotSE is pretty standard for all Primordials until we get stats for another one.
    Safe assumption.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Well, first of all, titan and primordial are synonyms. And it doesn't look like you've read what I said at all. With the immense number of dragon kings that died, coupled with the knowledge that they were all of decent Essence, we can assume that they and the weaker races and first circles on the Primordial side broke against each other. Except possibly the Lintha. Certainly, each aforementioned Exalt squad was facing down a soul pantheon, but that's partially the point.
    Yes they are synonyms, I prefer to not use titan if I can to not cause confusion for people not familiar with certain bits of real word mythology. And that is the point. What little we know of the Primordial War doesn't lend itself to "Omg WTF Solarz OP!"

    Sure, the Exalts died in droves and had to reincarnate at E2, but I'm assuming that even surviving a fight with a Primordial is an experience to drive your skills to their peak. So all in all, it was not a fair fight at all because a fair fight would have been a curbstomp. Meanwhile, Sol is a monster capable of soloing titans. I cannot seriously believe that a circle could down him without at least as many things in their favor as they did in the War. The Guardian of Creation should not fall to the selfish whims of a few Exalts; it should take the whole of humanity to build the Tower of Babel, so to speak.
    Bit of a strawman going on here. A storyline culminating in Ignis Divine for whatever reason being fought by Solars/Abyssals/GSP's is supposed to be the culmination of a huge chronicle and be an appropriately epic fight. Not "Well it was Tuesday we were bored."
    Errata p.150 says that Elder Essence is beyond their design specifications. I think it mentions that even Autochthon was surprised about it somewhere else, but I don't have a page number.
    Which is "we weren't expecting it." Not "OOC:Screw you and your Essence 6+."

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Ignis Divine would massacre certain Primordials without the aegis. Any non martially concept Primordial would probably be slaughtered and ones like The Ebon Dragon would get slaughtered even easier.
    Lol, no. Ebon Dragon is (despite appearance) one of the most powerful and verasalite Titans. Via Shadow Slave and 1k mote pool he can duplicate and out-done UCS (or circle of E5 Solars) several times over. Add to it virtualy any artifact, army of nasty first circles and couple of shadow-ninja-assassin-like higher souls and He.Is.Scary.

    It is shame he is such coward..

    Safe assumption.
    Ok, my bad. So every titan has additional weakness..
    Last edited by Madwand; 2012-05-20 at 01:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Demented One View Post
    Safe assumption.
    You wouldn't happen to have any other Primordial stat-blocks laying around, would you?
    Last edited by Xefas; 2012-05-20 at 01:31 PM.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
    Lol, no. Ebon Dragon is (despite appearance) one of the most powerful and verasalite Titans. Via Shadow Slave and 1k mote pool he can duplicate and out-done UCS (or circle of E5 Solars) several times over. Add to it virtualy any artifact, army of nasty first circles and couple of shadow-ninja-assassin-like higher souls and He.Is.Scary.
    It is also safe to assume that every Primordial has a kilomote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    It is also safe to assume that every Primordial has a kilomote.
    From what I remember of discussions, it's likely that the kilomote is the least amount of motes that a primordial has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    From what I remember of discussions, it's likely that the kilomote is the least amount of motes that a primordial has.
    Almost certainly, yes. We can be pretty sure Cytherea has the largest mote pool, wherever she might be. But almost all primordials have effectively unlimited capacity to use their charms (relative to any individual opponent). To mote tap them, you're going to need an army.

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    And you'll need more armies to fend off its subsouls, sub-subsouls and hordes of spawn.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    Almost certainly, yes. We can be pretty sure Cytherea has the largest mote pool, wherever she might be.
    (Curious)
    Why's that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    (Curious)
    Why's that?
    Because she was the one with sufficient power to wake the other primordials and roll back chaos, and the one with the raw power to catalyze Gaia's essence and stabilize creation, and the fluff (for example in the creation of the daystar) seems to bear her out as a being of absolute fire with more raw power than most if not all the other primordials.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
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    Personal theory: Much of her charmset is focused on buffing others. With a Shintai that gives someone else access to her massive mote pool.

    ie: How did Gaia create Creation? By pouring both her entire moot pool AND Cytherea's even larger one into a single all powerful spell.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragnar View Post
    Personal theory: Much of her charmset is focused on buffing others. With a Shintai that gives someone else access to her massive mote pool.

    ie: How did Gaia create Creation? By pouring both her entire moot pool AND Cytherea's even larger one into a single all powerful spell.
    I made such a spell for the Kilomote Fiend build a while back.

    Imposition of Form
    Adamant Circle Spell
    Cost: 5000m+

    It is with the Imposition of Form that creation was first brought into being. This spell can only be cast in the heart of pure chaos. The caster must first surround himself with at least 4 third circle emanations, or spirits of equivalent power crafted especially for the purpose. The souls need not be the caster's, but must be from a consenting source capable of donating 1000 motes to harmonize with the caster with a successful Perception + Occult roll (difficulty 20).

    The sorcerer stands at the heart of nothingness, surrounded by the souls used for the ritual, and makes the Mudra of New Beginnings. In a supreme act of will he hardens his essence in an assertion of his being, calcifying from his extremities and extending towards his chakras. Before he completely freezes, he begins speaking. The shinma shudder in the presence of this interloper and retreat, ordering themselves in a manner defined as the caster speaks a perfect syllable defining the laws of the new realm of existence. In a second perfect syllable, the caster simultaneously utters the secret names of all things, bringing into existence the underlying mechanisms that will maintain the new realm. Finally, in a burst of glossolalia his essence can no longer be contained, and streams from every fiber of his being as he recites the complete history to come of the new world too quickly for any to hear, though it's echoes stretch to infinity and form the basis by which some may peer into samsara.

    The souls used for the rituals are agonizingly torn apart mote by mote, exploding outward in purifying essence flames with a radius of one mile. The spirits are destroyed in this conflagration, though they may reform as normal for their kind. From this point on, however, their essence is irrevocably tied to the land they helped form, preventing them from ever leaving the new world for another realm of existence. Each soul's motes form a fundamental aspect of this new place, functionally forming the basis for an element appropriate to their nature. For every mote spent beyond the basic cost, the flames stretch an additional mile. Where the flames pass, chaos recedes and forms into the foundation of the new world. Each element pools in a specific region, forming an elemental pole, the arrangement of which must be relatively uniform but may otherwise take any pattern within the limits of the spell's effect.

    Though the physical laws and essence interactions of the world may otherwise be defined however the creator wishes, sorcery is universal and follows the same basic principles in all worlds formed by it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
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