General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Mr.Bookworm]

Sell it and get Scion, no wait, get Nobilis instead if you want nothing to do with it.

Given that the rest of your post is about mechanics, this makes me question whether you've been within twenty feet of a Scion rulebook.

Anyway, I just had the best idea ever, retroactively and preemptively erasing every other best idea ever I have had.

Sidereals as a buddy cop movie.
"Dammit, Nazri, you're a loose cannon! One more tangle in the Pattern and I'll have your badge!"
Think about it.
"One week away from retirement, kid. 4,999 years on the force. I've seen it all."
Thiiiiiiink about it.

[Lord Raziere]

I am not a mechanics expert, or very analytical when coming to mechanics. I am mostly repeating what other people saying on Scion. I personally see nothing wrong with Scion's rules, but again: analytical on mechanics I am not.

[horngeek]

Scion, especially at higher levels, develops a problem where what is laughed at by a certain character slaughters another character, with the difference between the two characters being one dot in an Epic Attribute.

[Turalisj]

Would this be a bad time to express interest in running an Exalted Maid game via AIM?

[Gensh]

I friend just gave me his exalted second edition core rules book. I've never played exalted before, and none of my friends who play nearby have, either.

So...what do I do about this?

Sell your Free Will to the Yozis. Nothing but good can come of it.

But as the others have said, until just recently, the rules have been a train wreck. They're still pretty bad but are at least mostly usable at this point. You mainly want to look at the fluff, and even then, it's a bit of a sprawling monstrosity, and several points in Core were later changed. It's beautiful if you can see the whole of it, but that takes a bit of work. If you'd like to go deeper into the mythos after finishing Core, the Ink Monkeys book has several essays in it.

[horngeek]

Would this be a bad time to express interest in running an Exalted Maid game via AIM?

<.<
>.>

By which you mean Exalted as the system and we play maids, or MAID as the system and we play Exalted?

Either way, I can't play mostly due to the last word in your post.

[Lord Raziere]

Scion, especially at higher levels, develops a problem where what is laughed at by a certain character slaughters another character, with the difference between the two characters being one dot in an Epic Attribute.

……….

why can't you just plan the battles better? in fact would this make things easier as it would make you certain of which enemy to fight?

[Turalisj]

<.<
>.>

By which you mean Exalted as the system and we play maids, or MAID as the system and we play Exalted?

Either way, I can't play mostly due to the last word in your post.

MAID as the system and you play Exalted.

I'm not gonna try and run it from pbp, those games always die unless they are something like YSA where it can pretty much drive itself.

[Tavar]

……….

why can't you just plan the battles better? in fact would this make things easier as it would make you certain of which enemy to fight?

Um...that wouldn't address the problem. If, in your group, one character has one Epic Attribute(I think it's Dex, but this is from hearsay, so it could be something else) higher than another member, either any combat challenge you through at the group is utterly worthless against that character, or a complete curbstomp for the others, with no middle ground.

MAID as the system and you play Exalted.

I'm not gonna try and run it from pbp, those games always die unless they are something like YSA where it can pretty much drive itself.

Might be interested, though I'd have to get the maid books.

Also, perhaps another client might solve the issue? Skype is decent, as is IRC.

[Lord Raziere]

Ok, why can't you just tone the epic dots down so that they only give you one additional success per dot or something?

[Turalisj]

Ok, why can't you just tone the epic dots down so that they only give you one additional success per dot or something?

I've played Scion. I will tell you, it has more problems than Exalted does.

[Lord Raziere]

Yet, my friend has found it more fun than Exalted and prefers playing Scion over Exalted. I tend to find him trustworthy.

[Tavar]

People have said that the Monk in 3.5 is the most powerful class, even labeling it broken. People have also had fun playing a monk. That doesn't mean it's true, nor does it detract from the evidence that the Casters hold that title.

[Lord Raziere]

Hm, thats clearly evidence to my mind that you simply have a narrow definition of overpowered in method or something and that there is quite simply a different way of playing the game that you do not consider where the Monk is more powerful and "broken", while you assume that the game is always being played a certain way that makes casters the most powerful.

[Exthalion]

While I understand that mechanics in core are not much appreciated, can we all perhaps be a bit less vitriolic? We are here because we like the game. The recent round of errata has fixed the big problems. Most STs know the houserules to fix the small ones.

So to our new player: Enjoy it. Request a newbie friendly game on this forum and you should find a fairly good introduction.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Scion works on a very similar system to Exalted. Attributes, Abilities, dice pools, the whole jazz.

But, Scion differs from Exalted in one very important aspect. Your most powerful abilities are passive, not active. You have Epic Attributes, which grant you flat successes to the related Attribute roles (along with some other benefits). Permanently, forever. Compare to Exalted, where you have active Excellencies that require motes to be pumped in to gain dice. Scion's juice stat, Legend, goes from 2 to 12, and you can buy dots of Epic Attributes equal to (Legend-1), up to your normal rating in that Attribute.

Anyway, from 1 to 10 dots, bonus sux go as follows: 1, 2, 4, 7, 11, 16, 22, 29, 37, 46.

Those get added to every roll involving the Attribute. Including attack roles and damage rolls. There are some other benefits related to Epic Attributes, chiefly that Dexterity gets to add that value to their DVs, cementing it as the Stat of Stats.

If you don't see how massive a disparity that creates, I would be more than happy to show you.

Now, this is far from the only problem with Scion, but it's one of the most prevalent. Don't get me wrong, I love Scion to death, and it's pretty playable at the Hero level, but nearer to the top (I would still get the later books, if only for idea mining, though)? It makes Exalted look near flawless.

[Qaera]

GED XI: Scion is always better

~ ♅

[Tavar]

Hm, thats clearly evidence to my mind that you simply have a narrow definition of overpowered in method or something and that there is quite simply a different way of playing the game that you do not consider where the Monk is more powerful and "broken", while you assume that the game is always being played a certain way that makes casters the most powerful.

Sometimes, I wonder what you actually read. At this point, I'm almost certain it can't be what others are posting.

Okay, let me try again, this time spelling everything out, rather than assuming you have any background regarding 3.5 on the boards. The standard caveat, one that's assumed in any discussion regarding class power, is that of course results may vary regarding the players. People can make intentionally sub-optimal choices, or make mistakes, or not realize what the most optimal path is at any given time. This can be because they don't care, or a lack of knowledge. But, you can rank classes based on the highest level of power they can reliably reach. This is the basis of the tier systems: that certain classes have a higher threshold of power than others. They don't always reach it, but if you're using the standard rules(ie, no houserules), they can reach that level(but are not forced to). Monks have a low threshold of power. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids have an extremely high threshold of power. Most notably, they can reach that threshold in a multitude of ways, meaning that not only can they be extremely dangerous, but can be such in many ways(assuming, of course, that they try and reach that level).

Once again, I should state that this doesn't necessarily happen in game. Players can intentionally not use the most effective tactics, or not know them. Or there could be houserules in effect, though such rules that limit casters are notoriously difficult to be light enough that they don't make them un-playable, but also strong enough to be felt, and also not to in-depth. If you rewrite/cherry-pick the allowed spells you can do it, but that's quite a number of things that you have to address.

Despite the Tier list, some people still say that Monks are extremely broken. This is not a failing of the tier list. The Tier list explicitly says that the results may vary depending on the players skill, and houserules can shake things up even more.

In addition, neither power nor balance has a direct correlation to enjoyment. They can factor into it, but the connection is nebulous at best. It is perfectly possible to enjoy playing a monk, even though it cannot reach the same power as an un-houseruled caster. This is, after all, not a game about winning. It's about playing a character.

In Exalted Terms, it is perfectly possible to enjoy playing a Dragonblooded, even though you can never match the raw might of a Solar Exalted. And I doubt you can argue that the Dragonblooded is outmatched, assuming equivalent xp levels, and builds focused in the same areas.

This relates to your original statement, that your friend had fun with Scion and you trusted him, because neither Mr.Bookworm nor Turalisj never said it wasn't fun. They said it wasn't balanced, and that it was less balanced than Exalted, but neither of those statements relates to fun. In addition, I was pointing out that, while they were directly bringing up the problems with Scion, you were simply saying that someone else seems to have found no problems. This isn't really evidence.

[Lord Raziere]

And Scion is mythology, moreso than Exalted. ever thought about thinking outside the box for these things?

as for the Exalted mechanics: Exthalion, no no no, the big problems are still there, lots of them in fact, there are no "small problems" where Exalted 2nd edition is concerned. the errata has less fix the big problems, and more slightly adjusted one overwhelming problem to be something a little more bearable.

@ Tavar:….kay, whatever. I mostly question and be skeptical just for the heck of it anyways so….yea I guess that makes sense.

[Tavar]

And Scion is mythology, moreso than Exalted. ever thought about thinking outside the box for these things?

as for the Exalted mechanics: Exthalion, no no no, the big problems are still there, lots of them in fact, there are no "small problems" where Exalted 2nd edition is concerned. the errata has less fix the big problems, and more slightly adjusted one overwhelming problem to be something a little more bearable.

For someone who apparently has no knowledge of Scions mechanics, you seem to make quite a few statements regarding it's mechanics not being bad.

Also, care to share what problems are currently overwhelming in Exalted?

[Lord Raziere]

I didn't say I had no knowledge, I just said that I'm not analytical about mechanics in general. one can hold knowledge and not be good at analyzing it to see what lies underneath.

the problems overwhelming Exalted 2nd edition, is Exalted 2nd edition. they just aren't suited to the setting.

[Turalisj]

Um.... Raz...

You realize that the mechanics are tied to the fluff.

[Tavar]

So....you say you can't really analyze mechanics, but also say that the mechanics of Exalted don't work?

[golentan]

Yeah. Exalted is built on a shaky foundation. Scion is built on a very similar foundation, then starts blowing out support beams.

Every problem exalted has except the clutter of large numbers of sourcebooks, Scion has as bad or worse in my experience.

[Doran]

Have you guys already seen the Exalted pony wallpaper?

[The_Snark]

To Technoscrabble: skim through the book and see if you like it, is my advice. Don't be too intimidated by everyone here talking about how the system sucks — many of us have been playing for a while and are just a teensy bit jaded. It can be a cumbersome system, but it's also cool in a lot of ways, and the ideas behind it are pretty neat.

Yet, my friend has found it more fun than Exalted and prefers playing Scion over Exalted. I tend to find him trustworthy.

The best defense I can come up with for Scion as written is that its crippling systemic flaws tend not to show up right at the start of the game. At low Legend (equivalent to Essence), Epic Attributes are only adding a few successes and the dice haven't been rendered entirely irrelevant.

There are a lot of individual balance issues scattered through the various books, but the game is playable at the Heroic level. This may explain your friend's experience; I've played and enjoyed Scion at that level too.

(Mind you, I still prefer Exalted, but that's neither here nor there.)

Every problem Exalted has except the clutter of large numbers of sourcebooks, Scion has as bad or worse in my experience.

Ironically, it suffers from the opposite problem — I often find that there isn't enough material to support a character concept. It doesn't help that a lot of the published Knacks and Boons are badly written, hyperspecialized, generally underwhelming, or all three; nor that only a small portion of these are attainable at character creation.

[Tavar]

You mean the wallpapers with different members of MLP done as various types of Exalts? Derpy Hooves as a Sidereal of Journeys, the Griffin as a Full moon Lunar, Trixie as an Air Aspect, etc?

[Lord Raziere]

The best defense I can come up with for Scion as written is that its crippling systemic flaws tend not to show up right at the start of the game. At low Legend (equivalent to Essence), Epic Attributes are only adding a few successes and the dice haven't been rendered entirely irrelevant.

There are a lot of individual balance issues scattered through the various books, but the game is playable at the Heroic level. This may explain your friend's experience; I've played and enjoyed Scion at that level too.

He has all five books and has been playing it longer than I have. he has unleashed the Avatars,and normally uses the Scion system to make various legendary artifacts. either he is not analytical at all and is having fun because of it, or you guys are filled with too much overthinking and dismiss the system before you actually play it without giving it a chance. either way, I'd rather not listen to you and just ignore the gamebreaking analysis for the sake of fun.

after all, it isn't really the systems fault, its the people who exploit it by looking at it as a system to exploit.

[Turalisj]

after all, it isn't really the systems fault, its the people who exploit it by looking at it as a system to exploit.

Excuse me, I need to go find something.

.....




*ahem* Back to civilized discussion.

You can make the same argument for Exalted. It isn't the system's fault, it's the fault of everyone who exploits it by looking at it as a system to exploit.

Exhibit A: Pretty much everything Meschlum has posted in this thread.

[Lord Raziere]

And now to screw your mind even further:

If no one exploits the system, no bad things are discovered, therefore progress can only be made on the backs of the people who are exploiting the system and are thus enemies to progress. people who exploit the system and people who fix it are tied together, for one cannot fix the system without someone exploiting it, thus pointing out the exploit for all to see.

thus it is through evil exploitation that we get progress, through progress stamping out evil exploitation.