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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Hell, there's even a Charm that was made just for that reason; Elegant Executioner Stance.

    I'll understand if you haven't read it; it's an Abyssal Charm.
    He understands - more than the others do, at any rate. We don't talk much, and the silence speaks
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    I'll understand if you haven't read it; it's an Abyssal Charm.
    Malfeas have mercy! Hipster Abyssals!
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Hell, there's even a Charm that was made just for that reason; Elegant Executioner Stance.

    I'll understand if you haven't read it; it's an Abyssal Charm.
    Is Abyssa a DT, or what?

    ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Malfeas have mercy! Hipster Abyssals!
    I was more just poking fun at Xefas more than trying to reference hipsters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    I'm not actually sure it's fanon anymore? Ebby's Tenebrous Apotheosis Shintai defines things like his body's base size, his base movement speed, his base soak, his natural attacks, his base health levels, and so on. If he doesn't have that charm, he isn't a dragon, even. I'm not sure what he'd look like then.

    This Shintai clearly defines his Jouten. Which, I guess he only has one of? That seems fairly in line with The Ebon Dragon, what with doing things like purposefully not creating all of his Third Circle Souls.
    He's also got another shintai, which doesn't describe his form. Malfeas has two shintai, and neither of them describe his role as the Demon City or the Brass Dancer.

    Jouten can be defined by Shintai, I'll agree to that. But I fail to see how all Shintai must define jouten.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    I would say the jouten-shintai for the default Yozis is a cyclical thing, actually. First a jouten is defined, the iconic appearances of the Yozis, then a shintai is built around that Jouten.

    For instance, Heuristic Logos Shintai is most certainly the appearance of the form we all know and love for She Who Lives in Her Name.

    Who incidentally has no other known joutens and no other shintais.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    I would say the jouten-shintai for the default Yozis is a cyclical thing, actually. First a jouten is defined, the iconic appearances of the Yozis, then a shintai is built around that Jouten.

    For instance, Heuristic Logos Shintai is most certainly the appearance of the form we all know and love for She Who Lives in Her Name.

    Who incidentally has no other known joutens and no other shintais.
    She ought to have a Mind-Hollowing Virus Shintai.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    He's also got another shintai, which doesn't describe his form. Malfeas has two shintai, and neither of them describe his role as the Demon City or the Brass Dancer.

    Jouten can be defined by Shintai, I'll agree to that. But I fail to see how all Shintai must define jouten.
    The Ebon Dragon's second shintai, as with Cecelyne's is an advanced shintai. It is not really a different form so much as an improvement - while a GSP or Yozi with lower Essence might see the need to use the lesser one, a full-fledged Yozi would not. The Ebon Dragon is no longer forced to mimic his enemy but can take any shape to suit his purpose; Cecelyne is not a sand-spirit but an entire desert.

    Well, for starters, Malfeas has thirteen jouten, so technically, the Demon Emperor and Devil-Tyrant Avatar could be among those. It is more likely, however, that just like Black Mirror's base form is not a giant dragon, so too are the given Malfean shintai incomplete versions of His Majesty's iconic forms. Since Demon Emperor begins with forming an Empyreal shintai and then collapses into a radioactive brass giant, it is likely the City jouten, with the E6 version being a Megazord piloted by the rest of the party, and the E8 version actually being a city. Similarly, the other given shintai is not the Devil-Tyrant himself but rather an avatar, something that is a mere representative, in this case referring to a lessening of Malfeas' stature. While this shintai may very well be the various constructions throughout the city, it would be a needless redundancy. Instead, I believe it refers to Malfeas taking on a human-sized humanoid avatar. The issue, of course, is where all the other mutations are. While this is merely speculation, I would guess that the E6 version of this shintai removes the side-effects of various mutations (gaining giant strength without becoming immense, for example), while the E8 version is something like Gackt Eternal Shintai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    I would say the jouten-shintai for the default Yozis is a cyclical thing, actually. First a jouten is defined, the iconic appearances of the Yozis, then a shintai is built around that Jouten.
    Since Primordials are their Charm trees, I'm not sure the process would work quite like that. After all, they don't specifically have any sort of form without Worldshaper Assumption, and unless WA states they can change shape, they can't assume other forms without Charms, i.e. a shintai. I think you'd be correct for the primary jouten of each Primordial, but any other jouten would be created by the Primordial conceiving of a new form for themself, then creating a new shintai to actually assume that form.

    Quote Originally Posted by aetherialDawn View Post
    She ought to have a Mind-Hollowing Virus Shintai.
    Heuristic Logos Shintai does allow her to use her mind control powers without having to hijack a manse first.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Since Primordials are their Charm trees, I'm not sure the process would work quite like that. After all, they don't specifically have any sort of form without Worldshaper Assumption, and unless WA states they can change shape, they can't assume other forms without Charms, i.e. a shintai. I think you'd be correct for the primary jouten of each Primordial, but any other jouten would be created by the Primordial conceiving of a new form for themself, then creating a new shintai to actually assume that form.
    I mean, from the OOC design point o view. The backwards way it works from this side of the character sheet. I do agree with the view that Shintais are the charms that define the joutens of the Yozis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Heuristic Logos Shintai does allow her to use her mind control powers without having to hijack a manse first.
    *grumble* Then I suppose SWLiHN just didn't want to deal with having a hierarchy of Jouten. A hierarchy of souls was quite enough, and being quite enough, Perfect. Adding to it would be bad.

    ...There might be a Three Spheres Cataclysm shintai (or shintai upgrade) though. She did it, she can't un-do it.
    Last edited by aetherialDawn; 2012-04-14 at 12:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    I'll understand if you haven't read it; it's an Abyssal Charm.
    It gets harder and harder for me to conceptualize necrotic Essence, much less the beatnik-shaped fonts in which it pools the strongest.

    Although, for anyone that does know more about the Underworld, I have a question. The Underworld is a big greyscale analogue to Creation. Where in Creation is the analogue for where the Neverborn sit? Are they under Mount Meru?

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    It gets harder and harder for me to conceptualize necrotic Essence, much less the beatnik-shaped fonts in which it pools the strongest.

    Although, for anyone that does know more about the Underworld, I have a question. The Underworld is a big greyscale analogue to Creation. Where in Creation is the analogue for where the Neverborn sit? Are they under Mount Meru?
    Well, the Underworld proper is a copy of Creation, but beneath that is the Labyrinth and beneath that is the Mouth of the Void. Above Creation proper is Meru and "above" that is Yu-Shan. So I'm guessing it vaguely resembles Time of Glory Yu-Shan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    It gets harder and harder for me to conceptualize necrotic Essence, much less the beatnik-shaped fonts in which it pools the strongest.

    Although, for anyone that does know more about the Underworld, I have a question. The Underworld is a big greyscale analogue to Creation. Where in Creation is the analogue for where the Neverborn sit? Are they under Mount Meru?
    As far up as Mount Meru reaches, that far down does the Mouth of the Void go.

    In analogue terms, I'd say the metaphysical point of division between Yu-Shan and Mount Meru, tunneled that far under Mount Meru, is where you're looking for.

    ...Which probably makes the Mountain Folk very nervous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    That is the scariest two lines I have read in a forum of any kind.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    So, is there any reason you couldn't tunnel down there (obviously with some kind of Defiler-built mole-machine equipped with a cartoonishly large drill), draw and quarter a few thousand of the horrible protothulhu tentacle monsters down there, and open a Shadowland right in the Neverborn's face?

    Y'know, just to mess with them?

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Because if I was STing it, you'd open it up and drop a Neverborn Tomb into Creation.

    Nice job breaking it, Hero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    That is the scariest two lines I have read in a forum of any kind.
    Take two internets, a cookie and a vorpal sword, please.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Lochar View Post
    Because if I was STing it, you'd open it up and drop a Neverborn Tomb into Creation.
    What are they gonna do? Bleed on me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    The Ebon Dragon's second shintai, as with Cecelyne's is an advanced shintai. It is not really a different form so much as an improvement - while a GSP or Yozi with lower Essence might see the need to use the lesser one, a full-fledged Yozi would not. The Ebon Dragon is no longer forced to mimic his enemy but can take any shape to suit his purpose; Cecelyne is not a sand-spirit but an entire desert.
    Tenebrous Apotheosis Shintai is not an improvement of BMS. It defines one form, and does so in an entirely different fashion than BMS acts. TAS is entirely different charm technology, and calling it an advancement of BMS just because it requires BMS as a prerequisite is ridiculous.

    Each shintai is representative of a core aspect of the Primordial metaphysiology, but it doesn't necessarily represent on of their jouten. You can say that it's likely all you want, that doesn't necessarily make it true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    What are they gonna do? Bleed on me?
    That terrible ichor was a vision of madness, each drop containing a thousand agonies, filling my head with the screams of the dead and dying. It was the vitality of that which was eternal, the life of the undying, and yet it was spilled, a paradoxical substance that drove cracks into a decaying realm with its every movement. I could not stand it, yet I could not look away, its very nature compelling me to cast myself over the brink and into that damnable tomb of a dying world, that I might end the pain and madness it inflicted upon me with the salve of eternal emptiness.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Xefas's idea isn't without a merit. On the other hand, I would like to experiment with Protoshinmaic Vortex ... by leaving one on a Neverborn's "tomb" and watch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    What are they gonna do? Bleed on me?
    Because leaving the originators of Deathly Essence in close proximity to Pasip is going to have no issues at all, no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    That is the scariest two lines I have read in a forum of any kind.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    So, is there any reason you couldn't tunnel down there (obviously with some kind of Defiler-built mole-machine equipped with a cartoonishly large drill), draw and quarter a few thousand of the horrible protothulhu tentacle monsters down there, and open a Shadowland right in the Neverborn's face?

    Y'know, just to mess with them?
    Well you would be trying to open a Shadowland right in the hearth of the elemental pole connected with Stability a few thousand lives wouldn't be anything close to enough.

    Also take care to avoid the spear of jade running through the center around there which splits everything into their component motes if it comes to close.

    But other than, not really - provided you are willing to accept whatever consequences might result.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post
    Tenebrous Apotheosis Shintai is not an improvement of BMS. It defines one form, and does so in an entirely different fashion than BMS acts. TAS is entirely different charm technology, and calling it an advancement of BMS just because it requires BMS as a prerequisite is ridiculous.

    Each shintai is representative of a core aspect of the Primordial metaphysiology, but it doesn't necessarily represent on of their jouten. You can say that it's likely all you want, that doesn't necessarily make it true.
    A Primordial has no body, save when it is granted one by Worldshaper Assumption. Since Tenebrous Apotheosis gives the effects of Worldshaper Assumption, we can assume that TA is a body of the Ebon Dragon because it provides the means by which he creates his body. The basic technology is that his form is amorphous, being composed of living darkness, such that he is able to assume any form he desires. Compare that the technology of Black Mirror is that he wraps himself in an amorphous darkness in order to assume a specific form. It is a matter of scale - being the shadow of one specific person to being the Shadow of All Things. Thus, Black Mirror is a fragment of Tenebrous Apotheosis, which is by definition the body of the Ebon Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol View Post
    Xefas's idea isn't without a merit. On the other hand, I would like to experiment with Protoshinmaic Vortex ... by leaving one on a Neverborn's "tomb" and watch.
    Solars of the First Age tried to see what happened if they let one loose in the Underworld. It just sort of fizzled and died. That's why Eye and Seven Despairs needed to have the Balorian Crusade destroy all Creation, because he was trying to connect the Neverborn to the infinite whole of the Wyld.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Solars of the First Age tried to see what happened if they let one loose in the Underworld. It just sort of fizzled and died. That's why Eye and Seven Despairs needed to have the Balorian Crusade destroy all Creation, because he was trying to connect the Neverborn to the infinite whole of the Wyld.
    Good to know that we have a way of safely disposing of Protoshinmaic Vortices. I wouldn't want any potential explosions from improper upkeep, and I'm not going to use them myself- hearthstones and essence capacitors are cheaper and don't require such upkeep- so using the Underworld as a way to dispose my defeated enemy's Vortices is a good idea in my opinion.
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    And besides, even if it does blow up it's just the Underworld.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    That is the scariest two lines I have read in a forum of any kind.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    I had one of those ideas I sometimes get. Could I get everyone's thoughts on a webcomic?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Gensh View Post
    Solars of the First Age tried to see what happened if they let one loose in the Underworld. It just sort of fizzled and died. That's why Eye and Seven Despairs needed to have the Balorian Crusade destroy all Creation, because he was trying to connect the Neverborn to the infinite whole of the Wyld.
    Really such unimaginative thing happened ? Sounds unconvincing but I would like to know where it is written if You would be so kind. And it seem to contradict with "Underworld overwhelms Bordermarches but melts in stronger Wyld, like everything else." vibe I got from other books about Wyld that I had read.

    And ... why Raksha have to risk lives and limbs in Creation when Underworld is totally undefended in comparison ? It's not like Underworld isn't bordering on the Wyld just like Creation, right ?
    Youth and strenght alvays lose to age and treachery.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Actually, from what I recall, it didn't so much as "fizzle" as explode, but have it gutter out quickly from the necrotic essence-flows.
    He understands - more than the others do, at any rate. We don't talk much, and the silence speaks
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol View Post
    Really such unimaginative thing happened ? Sounds unconvincing but I would like to know where it is written if You would be so kind. And it seem to contradict with "Underworld overwhelms Bordermarches but melts in stronger Wyld, like everything else." vibe I got from other books about Wyld that I had read.

    And ... why Raksha have to risk lives and limbs in Creation when Underworld is totally undefended in comparison ? It's not like Underworld isn't bordering on the Wyld just like Creation, right ?
    Neph's personal commentary is the source for the Underworld overwhelming the Wyld. Note that Creation has the stability of Earth, but the stability of the Underworld is nigh-absolute. A raksha in Creation calcifies; a raksha in the Underworld is destroyed by its weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol View Post
    And ... why Raksha have to risk lives and limbs in Creation when Underworld is totally undefended in comparison ? It's not like Underworld isn't bordering on the Wyld just like Creation, right ?
    It's exactly like that, actually. The Underworld and the Wyld don't border one another at all*, except in places where shadowlands and Wyld-tainted places overlap, and even then there's a little bit of Creation in between as a buffer layer.

    The two simply don't mix. The Wyld represents infinite possibility, while Oblivion represents zero possibility. When they do clash, the Wyld tends to come off the worse for it; shadowlands remain stable (albeit warped) in anything short of Pure Chaos, while the Underworld generally stifles Wyld essence completely.

    It's sort of a recurring theme in Exalted that stability trumps chaos. The Primordials were superior to the Wyld because they declared themselves to be a certain way and refused to yield or bend; the Wyld admitted that it was possible to be defeated and shaped by the Primordials, so it was. The Wyld is impressive, but compared to the Primordials and the Yozis and (to a lesser extent) the things of Creation, it's sort of wishy-washy. Very flexible, but less committed, and therefore weaker.

    Generally speaking. Chaos surprises you sometimes, which is why ishvara.

    *I don't think we know much about the edges of the Underworld, but the Compass: Underworld book notes that the black western seas stretch on forever. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine a similar equivalent for the other directions, becoming emptier and more featureless the further you go from the central Underworld. In the North the land drops away to reveal a vast gulf of still air, stirred only occasionally by whispers and echoes; in the East the sickly trees grow closer and closer together until they knit together into a towering impenetrable wall, she; to the South lies endless bone-dry wastes of grey ash.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Aug 2007

    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

    So does anyone remember Agents of Yu-Shan? That Keychain of Creation-alike that focused on Sidereals? The only that was mostly gags with little story and substance?

    Well now it is being drawn by an absolutely incredible artist, and has a serious and engaging story. I really recommend it; even if you didn't like the old comic, this is a completely new one.

    The old one is in the extras section if you are interested in getting some backstory; it isn't too long and it has some funny bits.

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