General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Lix Lorn]

Space Opera

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Zenith Caste

wait how can you be this awesome
exalted, Doctor Who and now Firefly?

Mal as a Zenith Caste... O.o

An unconvential one.

"I swear by my pretty floral bonnet that I will end you."

Mal's an odd one, though- his temprament is that of a Solar, but his backstory is classic Infernal material (keeping in mind that I consider the 'tried and failed' character backstory a valid Infernal Exaltation target as well as the 'backed down at moment of truth' character backstory).

...huh. I think I'd missed that 'backed down' was an option. Guess that says a lot about me.

[Sanguine]

...huh. I think I'd missed that 'backed down' was an option. Guess that says a lot about me.

It's not actually mentioned as a possibility in the Infernal book, and in fact goes against the spirit of what the book says on the matter IMO*, but it is how a couple of canonical Infernals "earned" their Exaltations.

*Which is one of the few parts in the first two Chapters that is actually good.

[Kobold-Bard]

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It's being offered power, with the alternative of death.

I thought that was Abyssals? [/ignorant]

[Sanguine]

I thought that was Abyssals? [/ignorant]

Both of them actually. If an would-be Infernal turns down the Exaltation the demon then attempts to kill them. This might or might not be made explicit by the demon.

Though unlike an Abyssal it is not certain death, as a heroic mortal could defeat a first circle demon; though it is unlikely.

[Kobold-Bard]

Both of them actually. If an would-be Infernal turns down the Exaltation the demon then attempts to kill them. This might or might not be made explicit by the demon.

Though unlike an Abyssal it is not certain death, as a heroic mortal could defeat a first circle demon; though it is unlikely.

Ah I see. Cool, thanks.

Since I'm making an ass of myself, might as well ask these:

1. Are there stats/char-gen rules for Lunar Beastmen (the animal/human hybrids), and if so where?

2. I don't get how Yozis work (spoilered for probable stupidity).

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- Their various souls take the form of Third Circle Demons are I believe.
- Do the Yozis exist as an actual entity and just invest a portion of themselves in each of the Demons, which gives each one it's (d/k the right word, aspect maybe?) of the Yozi?
- Or do they only exist as a sort of immaterial concept, and interact and exist solely through their various Demons?
- I believe I recall reading both that the Yozi dies if it loses all it's Third Circle demon souls, and if it just loses it's Fetich Soul, but I probably didn't read both. Which is it (or something else), and if they can survive losing their Fetich Soul, what happens if they lose it?

I've read the Infernals book, but if the info is in there I clearly managed to ignore it.

[Sanguine]

Ah I see. Cool, thanks.

Since I'm making an ass of myself, might as well ask these:

Your not making an ass of yourself, feel free to ask any questions you want.

1. Are there stats/char-gen rules for Lunar Beastmen (the animal/human hybrids), and if so where?

Scroll of Heroes says they are a type of Lunar Half-Caste, but this is stupid and a tad setting breaky, even ignoring any issues people may have with Half-Castes.

Why?

Because Scroll of Heroes also says a Half-Caste can only ever earn an Exaltation of the same type as their parent. However Beastmen Solars have been around since first edition. Not to mention it is the only book ever that implies Beastmen can learn Lunar Charms.

I would say just give them some appropriate mutations and call it good.

2. I don't get how Yozis work (spoilered for probable stupidity).

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- Their various souls take the form of Third Circle Demons are I believe.
- Do the Yozis exist as an actual entity and just invest a portion of themselves in each of the Demons, which gives each one it's (d/k the right word, aspect maybe?) of the Yozi?
- Or do they only exist as a sort of immaterial concept, and interact and exist solely through their various Demons?
- I believe I recall reading both that the Yozi dies if it loses all it's Third Circle demon souls, and if it just loses it's Fetich Soul, but I probably didn't read both. Which is it (or something else), and if they can survive losing their Fetich Soul, what happens if they lose it?

I've read the Infernals book, but if the info is in there I clearly managed to ignore it.

Yozis are actual beings physically separate from their Souls. Their bodies are known as Jouten and most have more than one. For instance Malfeas is both the Demon City itself and the magnificent Brass Dancer that capers through it's streets leaving destructive earthquakes in it's wake.

Primordials can suffer two kinds of death. Fetich Death, which is caused by the slaying of their Fetich Soul, in which all of their Joutens implode and they are reborn as new, but similar, beings. In the time before the Exalted this was the only death a Titan could suffer, and only the Empyreal Chaos could deal it. Then the Exalted were created and with them came True Death, the transformation into one of the Neverborn, caused by an Exalt slaying one of a Primordial's Jouten.

[Mr.Bookworm]

1. Are there stats/char-gen rules for Lunar Beastmen (the animal/human hybrids), and if so where?

Not explicitly, but beastmen are just humans with mutations. Just slap on the appropriate mutations.

- Their various souls take the form of Third Circle Demons are I believe.

Yes. The Yozis all have 3rd circle souls. Autochthon is at the low end of the scale with nine souls and Malfeas is implied to have maybe a couple dozen at the high end. Numbers are a bit vague.

3rd circle souls are the defining aspects of a Yozi. Each of them represents some important part of the Yozi, although they're their own unique being, as well. The most important one is the fetich soul.

Anyway, each of their 3rd circles souls, in turn, has seven subsouls which are the 2nd circle demons (which in turn, help define the 3rd circles). 1st circle demons are not subsouls, but created servitor races that the 2nd circles make.

- Do the Yozis exist as an actual entity and just invest a portion of themselves in each of the Demons, which gives each one it's (d/k the right word, aspect maybe?) of the Yozi?
- Or do they only exist as a sort of immaterial concept, and interact and exist solely through their various Demons?

As an actual entity.

Multiple entities, in most cases. The Yozi's bodies are known as jouten. Malfeas, for example, has two canonical jouten. The first is the actual city-world of Malfeas and the second is the human-sized Brass Dancer, who you can find within Malfeas. The Ebon Dragon exists as a literal giant shadow dragon, Cecylene is the silver desert that surrounds Malfeas, and so on.

Even if the Yozi in question doesn't have a human-ish form, it's still completely possible to talk and interact with them.

- I believe I recall reading both that the Yozi dies if it loses all it's Third Circle demon souls, and if it just loses it's Fetich Soul, but I probably didn't read both. Which is it (or something else), and if they can survive losing their Fetich Soul, what happens if they lose it?

If a Yozi dies, as slain by Ghost-Eating Technique or similar, it instantly becomes a Neverborn. Sucks to be them.

If a Yozi's fetich soul is killed, the Yozi collapses, and then reforms as a new (but very related) Yozi. Adrian became Adorjan, He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word was turned into Elloge, The Lidless Eye That Sees became Sacheverell, and so on.

[Kobold-Bard]

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Awesome thanks.

Last ones: If a Yozi's Fetich is destroyed does the new Yozi create a new Fetich, or does one of their other Souls get promoted? And do you just need to destroy one Jouten, or all of them to make them a Neverborn?

[Sanguine]

Awesome thanks.

Last one: If a Yozi's Fetich is destroyed does the new Yozi create a new Fetich, or does one of their other Souls get promoted?

I'm not sure, but I think that when a Primordial suffers Fetich Death his entire Soul Pantheon dies alongside him.

[The_Snark]

It's not actually mentioned as a possibility in the Infernal book, and in fact goes against the spirit of what the book says on the matter IMO*, but it is how a couple of canonical Infernals "earned" their Exaltations.

*Which is one of the few parts in the first two Chapters that is actually good.

Nah, I think the book pretty strongly indicates both are a possibility. I don't know if this was intentional, or a case of different writers working at cross-purposes, but it's there. (I actually prefer those who fail due to some innate moral flaw over those who tried but couldn't succeed because they were only mortal, but both can be made to work.)

1. Are there stats/char-gen rules for Lunar Beastmen (the animal/human hybrids), and if so where?

They're just humans with a few appropriate mutations slapped on. Sometimes you'll find lists of what mutations a given type of beastmen should have: the Compass: East book, for instance, features stats for the snake-men of Halta, the hawkmen of Mt. Metagalapa, and the ape-men descended from Raksi, while the Compass: West book lists the mutations that a shark-man could have. But there's usually a bit of room for variation (mutant beast-men not being all that rigidly defined as races), and you can easily wing it if you don't have the stats/don't like them/can't be bothered to look it up.

Last ones: If a Yozi's Fetich is destroyed does the new Yozi create a new Fetich, or does one of their other Souls get promoted? And do you just need to destroy one Jouten, or all of them to make them a Neverborn?

I'm not entirely sure. We only know of one living fetich, Ligier (Malfeas), and one deceased, Lilike (who belonged to Adrian, who became Adorjan). There's not really any data on where they come from. I sort of assume that the Yozi births a new soul to properly reflect its new shape and nature, though.

As for your second question, I don't know if there's an official answer but I figure killing the biggest/most important one should be good enough. Killing Malfeas just by mugging the Brass Dancer does not seem properly dramatic—you should have to fight the whole city. But having to hunt down the Brass Dancer after wrecking the Demon City doesn't feel right either. Play by ear, I guess.

[Tavar]

Pretty sure that any of the Jouten can use their charms. So attacking the Brass Dancer isn't any easier than attacking the city. So, I'd say that killing any of the Jouten is enough.

[Kobold-Bard]

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And again, thanks.

[Sanguine]

Nah, I think the book pretty strongly indicates both are a possibility. I don't know if this was intentional, or a case of different writers working at cross-purposes, but it's there. (I actually prefer those who fail due to some innate moral flaw over those who tried but couldn't succeed because they were only mortal, but both can be made to work.)

So thinking about being heroic and then deciding, "nah, not worth it", is worthy of earning an Exaltation? I think you and me might have very different ideas about the setting.

As for your second question, I don't know if there's an official answer but I figure killing the biggest/most important one should be good enough. Killing Malfeas just by mugging the Brass Dancer does not seem properly dramatic—you should have to fight the whole city. But having to hunt down the Brass Dancer after wrecking the Demon City doesn't feel right either. Play by ear, I guess.

You seem to be under the impression you could fight the Brass Dancer without fighting the Demon City. I find this greatly amusing. The Brass Dancer is imprisoned within the Demon City so the latter will be perfectly capable of interfering with the fight no matter the circumstance. And, while yes, the Yozis aren't generally aware of every being inside their bodies, Malfeas will become painfully aware of you the moment you stab him in the face.

Edit: I mostly agree with Tavar, though I imagine different Jouten would have somewhat different stats. Even if it's just a simple as, each Jouten is constantly under the effects of one of the Yozis Shintai.

[Gensh]

I've done a bit of digging into old forum posts about first edition, and it seems that originally, when fetich death was inflicted, the new Primordial would regenerate the same fetich as before, but wrong. This is why early second edition mentioned Ligier having had a different name but still existed in the Time of Glory before the "Empyreal Chaos had two fetiches" nonsense was made up.

On another note, RoGD2 theorized that one would have to destroy the largest jouten, but in those days, the Yozis were more malevolent and grand cosmic forces than the more-interesting-Deathlords they are now.

[The_Snark]

So thinking about being heroic and then deciding, "nah, not worth it", is worthy of earning an Exaltation? I think you and me might have very different ideas about the setting.

Yes, actually, because Infernals are first defined by their failings rather than their heroism. The Yozis are horribly flawed beings, and their tainted Solar Exaltations resonate with people who have some heroic qualities or impulses but are too flawed to fully realize them. A soldier's cowardice as he hides while his friends are torn apart by a monster; a diplomat who accidentally provokes a war after he gets drunk and sleeps with his host's daughter; a nobleman bringing his house to ruin through arrogance or Byronic vice instead of saving it—these are defining moments of Infernal Exaltation. They had a destiny, and they could have accomplished it or at least given it a shot, but they screwed up or lost their nerve.

That is the quality that sets Infernals apart from Solars*, and I feel that "oh, I did everything right but lost anyway because there was no Exaltation available" is a weaker story. It can certainly work, if you play up the devil's bargain that comes afterwards, but it falls flat for me if done wrong. At some point along the line, there needs to be a failing that is actually the character's fault, or else you've basically got a Solar covered in green paint.

*At the beginning, anyway. Unlike the Yozis, the Infernals don't have to let their flaws and obsessions define them; they can remake themselves, or change their minds, or whatever. But that's where they start.

You seem to be under the impression you could fight the Brass Dancer without fighting the Demon City. I find this greatly amusing. The Brass Dancer is imprisoned within the Demon City so the latter will be perfectly capable of interfering with the fight no matter the circumstance. And, while yes, the Yozis aren't generally aware of every being inside their bodies, Malfeas will become painfully aware of you the moment you stab him in the face.

Well, yeah, bad example on my part. But if you replace the Brass Dancer with a hypothetical humaniform jouten belonging to Cecelyne or Szoreny, it works. I don't think you should be able to kill the entire Yozi by destroying a lesser form, is the point—even if they have the same stats, you're wasting an opportunity for a cataclysmic showdown with a landscape!

[Sanguine]

Yes, actually, because Infernals are first defined by their failings rather than their heroism. The Yozis are horribly flawed beings, and their tainted Solar Exaltations resonate with people who have some heroic qualities or impulses but are too flawed to fully realize them. A soldier's cowardice as he hides while his friends are torn apart by a monster; a diplomat who accidentally provokes a war after he gets drunk and sleeps with his host's daughter; a nobleman bringing his house to ruin through arrogance or Byronic vice instead of saving it—these are defining moments of Infernal Exaltation. They had a destiny, and they could have accomplished it or at least given it a shot, but they screwed up or lost their nerve.

That is the quality that sets Infernals apart from Solars*, and I feel that "oh, I did everything right but lost anyway because there was no Exaltation available" is a weaker story. It can certainly work, if you play up the devil's bargain that comes afterwards, but it falls flat for me if done wrong. At some point along the line, there needs to be a failing that is actually the character's fault, or else you've basically got a Solar covered in green paint.

*At the beginning, anyway. Unlike the Yozis, the Infernals don't have to let their flaws and obsessions define them; they can remake themselves, or change their minds, or whatever. But that's where they start.

I can respect this opinion, but I don't agree with it. I also think we are defining the two types differently; because I would define your second example, and possibly your third, as trying and failing not failing to try.

[vegetalss4]

Awesome thanks.

Last ones: If a Yozi's Fetich is destroyed does the new Yozi create a new Fetich, or does one of their other Souls get promoted? And do you just need to destroy one Jouten, or all of them to make them a Neverborn?

When a Fetich die (permanently), the rest of the Yozi's souls also die and the new Yozi then creates new souls starting with a new Fetich, thus also getting its own definition.
There is however no details as to how long the first part takes (the second can be estimated from how many motes it must spend to do so, and how fast they regain motes, but I haven't done so.)

All of a Primordial's Jouten are their complete and true self, so if you kill any of them you kill the whole.

[Xefas]

All of a Primordial's Jouten are their complete and true self, so if you kill any of them you kill the whole.

And if you kill all of them simultaneously while they're Unity of the Closed Fist'd together, you double kill the whole.

It makes them serve two consecutive eternal sentences as Neverborn.

[The_Snark]

I can respect this opinion, but I don't agree with it. I also think we are defining the two types differently; because I would define your second example, and possibly your third, as trying and failing not failing to try.

Yeah, the line is blurry at times. But I definitely think the coward or the anti-hero who took a look at his opportunity for heroism and went, "yeah, **** that" is a valid Infernal character.

[Kobold-Bard]

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More thanks.

And if you kill all of them simultaneously while they're Unity of the Closed Fist'd together, you double kill the whole.

It makes them serve two consecutive eternal sentences as Neverborn.

Double kill, you say? Sounds like fun.

[Lix Lorn]

or else you've basically got a Solar covered in green paint.

While I want to clarify it should be an option rather than most of them, this is a valid thing to have.

And if you kill all of them simultaneously while they're Unity of the Closed Fist'd together, you double kill the whole.

It makes them serve two consecutive eternal sentences as Neverborn.

...Xefas. xD

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, actually, because Infernals are first defined by their failings rather than their heroism. The Yozis are horribly flawed beings, and their tainted Solar Exaltations resonate with people who have some heroic qualities or impulses but are too flawed to fully realize them. A soldier's cowardice as he hides while his friends are torn apart by a monster; a diplomat who accidentally provokes a war after he gets drunk and sleeps with his host's daughter; a nobleman bringing his house to ruin through arrogance or Byronic vice instead of saving it—these are defining moments of Infernal Exaltation. They had a destiny, and they could have accomplished it or at least given it a shot, but they screwed up or lost their nerve.

Thanks, this actually made me understand Infernals better. and how to Exalt them.

[DrakeRaids]

Modern

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Night Caste



Changing Moon Caste



Chosen of Battles

I pretty desperately want to know the logic behind the lunar there, as big a fan of the mythos as I am. Are you allowed to share?

[Blackdrop]

I pretty desperately want to know the logic behind the lunar there, as big a fan of the mythos as I am. Are you allowed to share?

I get it from a Wyld mutations = tentacles and bizzare limbs standpoint. I think Slendy would make far more sense as a Raksha then anything though. If I had to pick an Exaltation to put it in, I probably say Sidereal for the whole "warping reality" thing.

PS - Hello everyone! I just picked this up! It's awesome!

[Lix Lorn]

I get it from a Wyld mutations = tentacles and bizzare limbs standpoint. I think Slendy would make far more sense as a Raksha then anything though. If I had to pick an Exaltation to put it in, I probably say Sidereal for the whole "warping reality" thing.

PS - Hello everyone! I just picked this up! It's awesome!

Oh wow, I hadn't even noticed him...

[horngeek]

Also for Space Opera:

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As inspired by GreggHL's Glorious Shotgun Princess, Zenith Caste.

[DrakeRaids]

I get it from a Wyld mutations = tentacles and bizzare limbs standpoint. I think Slendy would make far more sense as a Raksha then anything though. If I had to pick an Exaltation to put it in, I probably say Sidereal for the whole "warping reality" thing.

Yeah, but the tentacles aren't even the main selling point in what he does you know? None of the current lunar charmset really gives you the tools slendy has, that tends to be more, as you said, Raksha or Siddie shennagains.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'm not sure, but I think that when a Primordial suffers Fetich Death his entire Soul Pantheon dies alongside him.

Wait, that doesn't make any sense; Ligier was around before Malfeas was Malfeas.

[Tavar]

Yeah, but the tentacles aren't even the main selling point in what he does you know? None of the current lunar charmset really gives you the tools slendy has, that tends to be more, as you said, Raksha or Siddie shennagains.

Current Lunar charmset is actually quite bad, news at 11.

Wait, that doesn't make any sense; Ligier was around before Malfeas was Malfeas.

Hence the "Holy Tyrant had 2 fetiches" thing.

[The_Snark]

Thanks, this actually made me understand Infernals better. and how to Exalt them.

Haha, well, be careful about it! As you can see, interpretations differ. But I'm glad it helped.

While I want to clarify it should be an option rather than most of them, this is a valid thing to have.

I'm... not so sure. Part of me says "if that's what the player wants and nobody else has a problem with it, why not? Just have fun." But the other part of me is stubbornly annoyed at the prospect of ignoring all the Infernal themes and just taking the cool powers. Why not simply leave off the green paint and simply play a Solar if that's what you're going for...?

(Yes yes, cool powers, but that's the part that bugs me.)