General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Qwertystop]

Question:
What is the actual amount of damage done by Spiteful Sea Tincture, and other effects based on it such as Sea Within Veins Prana?

[Kyeudo]

So does anyone remember Agents of Yu-Shan? That Keychain of Creation-alike that focused on Sidereals? The only that was mostly gags with little story and substance?

Well now it is being drawn by an absolutely incredible artist, and has a serious and engaging story. I really recommend it; even if you didn't like the old comic, this is a completely new one.

The old one is in the extras section if you are interested in getting some backstory; it isn't too long and it has some funny bits.

Don't forget that you can also find the Tales of the Mastah on patternspider as well. It's a tribute comic to Keychain of Creation, following the story of the Immaculate Mastah as he ends up a Green Sun Prince.

[golentan]

Don't forget that you can also find the Tales of the Mastah on patternspider as well. It's a tribute comic to Keychain of Creation, following the story of the Immaculate Mastah as he ends up a Green Sun Prince.

And it's what, all of 8 pages last I checked?

[Kyeudo]

And it's what, all of 8 pages last I checked?

Sixteen pages, actually. He's got good art and characters, so if he can get some bulk to it, he'll go far.

[golentan]

Writing needs work.

[Volthawk]

Question:
What is the actual amount of damage done by Spiteful Sea Tincture, and other effects based on it such as Sea Within Veins Prana?

The details of Spiteful Sea Tincture's poison is on the other column of that page, above Sea Within Veins Prana.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Gensh, were it true ... the stuff about Underworld>Creation>Wyld in the "solidity" department, then Creation would sink into Underworld right after it's "beginning" when Neverborn came to be. I see it as major inconsistency, but we have to deal with all these logic-traps in Exalted, don't we ?

And Raksha with proper "safeguards" can survive in Underworld. Just like proper Assumption protects them from Creation.

Though after reading this ... snippet I come to another conclusion since it is purposefully vague to the details about the experiment said mad Solard did.

The_Snark, during Balorian Crusade big portions of Underworld melted into nothing. So ... I believe it borders on the Wyld(Underworld version). Take note that there is difference between, so called, Pure Chaos and destabilized Creation where Raksha dwell. I prefer explanation from GWM that Raksha find Underworld deadly boring and unpalatable in the extreme. Trash from behind fastfood restaurant (Underworld) compared to school buffet(Creation) if we talk from the point of view of Raksha epicurean.

Why do I believe such ? Creation was made to resist Wyld. It was designed to offer Primordials respite from the ... tiresome chaos. Exalted damaged it great time, but it still works. On the other hand ... Underworld was created trough accident. It's a realm that is more like shadow of another realm.

It wasn't designed to resist endless "gnawing" of the chaos. And from what I see about Exalted fluff, it's full of desperate fighting against always returning tides of chaos and entropy. Very often invoked by Exalted themselves.

The Oblivion itself is just another face of Chaos in my book. Since Chaos contains ALL possibilities, Oblivion is just another facet of it.

[Volthawk]

The_Snark, during Balorian Crusade big portions of Underworld melted into nothing. So ... I believe it borders on the Wyld(Underworld version). Take note that there is difference between, so called, Pure Chaos and destabilized Creation where Raksha dwell. I prefer explanation from GWM that Raksha find Underworld deadly boring and unpalatable in the extreme. Trash from behind fastfood restaurant (Underworld) compared to school buffet(Creation) if we talk from the point of view of Raksha epicurean.

I figure that was because the Underworld is a mirror of Creation, so if vast areas of Creation are lost, the Underworld will mimic that loss.

[Madwand]

I figure that was because the Underworld is a mirror of Creation, so if vast areas of Creation are lost, the Underworld will mimic that loss.

It is true.

[Rikandur Azebol]

And if it's a mirror of Creation, it should border something. Right ?

[AmberVael]

And if it's a mirror of Creation, it should border something. Right ?

There are several ways you can look at that, but I think the most accurate response is that it is a mirror of Creation. Creation might border something, but the things beyond those borders are not Creation anymore. The Underworld need not mimic them, or if it does, only in the most vague terms.

If it does mirror the Wyld, it would be a mirror- if the Wyld is untapped potential and chaos, the further out from the Underworld you went, the more lifeless, boring and empty waste you would find.

[Gensh]

Gensh, were it true ... the stuff about Underworld>Creation>Wyld in the "solidity" department, then Creation would sink into Underworld right after it's "beginning" when Neverborn came to be. I see it as major inconsistency, but we have to deal with all these logic-traps in Exalted, don't we ?

Let me put it this way: the Wyld is made out of delicious pudding. Now, the Primordials don't like swimming in pudding, so they ate all the pudding in one spot to make a bubble and then mixed jello inside that bubble, which kept the pudding out. Then the Neverborn were created, and as they fell from the jello, they instinctively used their dark powers of death and destruction to boil some nice, hard toffee under the jello. Now, the jello may be more amorphous and liquid-like than the toffee, but it's solid enough that it merely rests on top of it instead of collapsing. Meanwhile, pieces of the toffee can be broken off to use as spoons to eat the pudding.

And Raksha with proper "safeguards" can survive in Underworld. Just like proper Assumption protects them from Creation.

Sure, Assumption of Cerements and Bone exists, but saying that it lets raksha survive in the Underworld is like saying appropriately protective clothes lets a man survive in the desert - without dreams for the raksha or water for the man, they'll die fairly quickly regardless.

Though after reading this ... snippet I come to another conclusion since it is purposefully vague to the details about the experiment said mad Solard did.

It really isn't that vague. A fancy-pants Solar was testing a PSV for its safety in the use of certain devices. To this end, he went to the Underworld, threw himself inside an anti-Wyld Charm, then ruptured the darn thing. It briefly exploded into a maelstrom of Wyld energy before the ever-impending force of Oblivion reduced all possibilities within the field to zero, restoring the Underworld. It took an entire universe's worth of energy to destroy a single village in the Underworld, and even then it was ultimately snuffed out.

It wasn't designed to resist endless "gnawing" of the chaos. And from what I see about Exalted fluff, it's full of desperate fighting against always returning tides of chaos and entropy. Very often invoked by Exalted themselves.

The Underworld didn't have to be designed to be resistant to Chaos. First of all, no sources indicate that they ever meet. Second, ignoring design, it's natively better at resisting Chaos because it's the conception of dead Primordials, rather than living ones. Living creatures are in a constant state of flux. Ghosts, however, are largely stable in mind and soul and therefore in Essence pattern. Death Essence is inherently stagnant and doesn't go flitting about through dragon lines like ordinary Essence - the same Essence of the Wyld.

The Oblivion itself is just another face of Chaos in my book. Since Chaos contains ALL possibilities, Oblivion is just another facet of it.

All Essence comes from the Wyld. Except Death Essence, which is something entirely antithetical to ordinary Essence. Chaos is infinite and indeed contains all possibilities. Oblivion is a singularity; it has no volume and thus does not physically exist. It is nothing, yet it has power enough to create an entire world that is also nothing - the Underworld is but an afterimage of Creation.

And if it's a mirror of Creation, it should border something. Right ?

This was already referenced, but here's the relevant quote:

"And to the west, the water goes on, endlessly, without boundary as the sky grows dimmer and the sun becomes a distant memory. The oldest ghostly sailors (some older than the gods of the Second Age) claim that the Sea of Shadows never ends."

In Creation, it's not difficult to accidentally wander off the map and into the Wyld. There doesn't seem to be any such border in the Underworld, or we'd likely have heard about it now.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Boring stance on the Underworld Vael. Underworld wasn't designed so it should be inherently more fragile than Creation. And much less stable, because Creation was designed to resist Wyld.

That authors avoided the question by saying "it's infinitely expanding into stable nothing." comes as poor design in my opinion. Would it kill authors to state that Underworld borders on Creation and Creation only ? Would be much more logical.

Gensh, You really do look down on me.

That what You refer to as pudding, isn't "true" Wyld but warped, broken down and falling apart piece of Creation. That it was made earlier by insane Solards is another fairytale.

Neverborn didn't created anything and it's not toffee. Underworld as it is now was created by mortals and their fear of death. Prayers given shape within basic framework provided by Neverborn's ... becoming. The Void isn't null-possibility, it's literal unknown that absorbs essence and shreds everything into component motes. Except Exaltations that seem to be able to resist it for a time long enough to escape.

Without Creation, linked trough Shadowlands, Underworld would collapse into the Void momentarily ... cut off the limblical cord providing it with sustenance. There is nothing like "death essence that originates from Underworld" as Creation's shadow is incapable of creating/generating anything. All essence it have is what it absorbed from Creation and perverted to it's purposes. Just like Creation parasites off the Wyld.

And, regarding this piece "nascent universe is nothing compared to ... nothing." is a very bleak interpretation. Perhaps as said author intended, the more sorry I feel if it's true.

Take note that by Universe I mean Creation+Wyld-thats-tied-to-Creation.

You yourself wrote that ALL come from the Wyld. So Oblivion/Void is from there too. In short, nothing special merely unhealthy.

Underworld touching Pure Chaos, as it happens to be with broken PSV ... should have no logical purchase to destroy it like author wrote. Pure Chaos, Gensh ... wich means that even if from outside of the sphere of "explosion" it's several miles ... inside is infinity of everything. Thus PSV's breakdown results should behave normally, the Bordermarches part snuffed out instantly, later parts heavily death-themed until Pure Chaos. Wich trumps normal Underworld like everything else that isn't specifically protected.

The snuffing out like it was written by the author would be logical if said Solar tried throwing the PSV into Void. Brief flash, and congrats You gain badge of "I killed more Universes than You !". Of course that should have also effect on the Underworld, most likely dire ... like Maelstrom. Or waking of one of the Neverborn.

What said author wrote is equivalent to this: "Raksha Bob the Bore, walked quietly into Creation ... being so boring that even Fate ignored him. Other Raksha averted their attentions after seeing calcified remains of those who spared passing thought towards the Bob the Bore. And he sits on the rock, being so boring that everyone and everything ignore him or even fact he ever existed."

Raksha can survive in Underworld, it's no more hostile to them than Creation. Were said Raksha with AoCaB find Underworld Demenesne he can even build Freehold there. But unlike in Creation, Realm Defense Grid won't vaporize him and his "artistic vision" of transforming Underworld sky around his haunt into bright pink. Or changing ghosts into cute little bunnies. After eating their minds, of course.

[The_Snark]

The Oblivion itself is just another face of Chaos in my book. Since Chaos contains ALL possibilities, Oblivion is just another facet of it.

Arguably, everything is (unless you subscribe to the theory that the Primordials are something totally different, in which case it's more complicated). To paraphrase a book I once read, Creation is the dream that no other dreams are real; Oblivion is the dream that no other dreams exist at all.

But just because it sprung from Chaos doesn't mean it's lesser. The Wyld contains all possibilities, including the possibility that it will cease to exist entirely. The authors are silent (deliberately so, I think) on what would happen if Oblivion and the Wyld met; it's up to individual interpretation.

Regardless, I think it is pretty clear that the Wyld and Underworld do not share borders. If they did, you'd think that the Wyld or Underworld compass books would mention it at least once or twice... but they don't; they only mention Wyld-tainted shadowlands. And it makes sense for Creation to be metaphysically between the two: less changeable than the Wyld but less stagnant than the Underworld.

The Underworld mirrors Creation, not everything in existence. Where Creation gives way to the Wyld, its mirror gives way to... nothing. Not absolute nothingness like Oblivion, but blank, featureless infinities.

Edit - which you may consider boring, I guess. Personally, I feel it's evocative, and furthermore that having the Wyld border on the Underworld would be repetitive. We already have one world dissolving into chaos at the edges. We don't need to tell the same story again. Let the Underworld be something different.

[Gensh]

That what You refer to as pudding, isn't "true" Wyld but warped, broken down and falling apart piece of Creation. That it was made earlier by insane Solards is another fairytale.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. In my metaphor, I was explicitly speaking about the Wyld beyond the boundaries of Creation, as noted by my reference to the Primordials. If you're talking about the PSV, then actually, they specifically are creations of the Solars, another symptom of their madness. Nothing else could create a PSV (except maybe Autochthon).

Neverborn didn't created anything and it's not toffee. Underworld as it is now was created by mortals and their fear of death. Prayers given shape within basic framework provided by Neverborn's ... becoming. The Void isn't null-possibility, it's literal unknown that absorbs essence and shreds everything into component motes. Except Exaltations that seem to be able to resist it for a time long enough to escape.

Compass: Underworld specifically states that the creation of the Underworld coincides with the fall of the Neverborn, though how it occurred is merely speculation. However, it does specifically state that there was a brief period of time before ghosts arrived. And indeed, Oblivion is null-possibility, because that is specifically what is stated in the aforementioned commentary: the PSV was snuffed out by "an implosion of possibilities solving for zero."

Without Creation, linked trough Shadowlands, Underworld would collapse into the Void momentarily ... cut off the limblical cord providing it with sustenance. There is nothing like "death essence that originates from Underworld" as Creation's shadow is incapable of creating/generating anything. All essence it have is what it absorbed from Creation and perverted to it's purposes. Just like Creation parasites off the Wyld.

While you are correct in that the Neverborn believe destroying Creation would cause the Underworld to fall into the Void, that isn't necessarily true. The Underworld and Creation for that matter are both entirely self-contained. There is most certainly Death Essence in the Underworld that is the polar opposite of regular Essence; else what does Ultimate Darkness Internalization do anyway? The only Wyld parasites in the setting are the Daystar and a conscious Autochthon.

And, regarding this piece "nascent universe is nothing compared to ... nothing." is a very bleak interpretation. Perhaps as said author intended, the more sorry I feel if it's true.

Neph is also responsible for Autochthon's incurable robo-cancer. The bleak interpretation is correct.

Take note that by Universe I mean Creation+Wyld-thats-tied-to-Creation.

No, a PSV is explicitly a universe all to itself, unbound by all things. Its core is a thing that cannot be touched by even the Solar who created it. It can only be exploded.

You yourself wrote that ALL come from the Wyld. So Oblivion/Void is from there too. In short, nothing special merely unhealthy.

As has been stated, if all things are possible in the Wyld, so too is the possibility of no possibilities forevermore.

Underworld touching Pure Chaos, as it happens to be with broken PSV ... should have no logical purchase to destroy it like author wrote. Pure Chaos, Gensh ... wich means that even if from outside of the sphere of "explosion" it's several miles ... inside is infinity of everything. Thus PSV's breakdown results should behave normally, the Bordermarches part snuffed out instantly, later parts heavily death-themed until Pure Chaos. Wich trumps normal Underworld like everything else that isn't specifically protected.

The problem is that there is that the Underworld is a tributary of Oblivion, and Oblivion is The End. It is an absolute entity whose gradual creep into all things is inevitable. That is the threat Creation faces. Since the Wyld contains all possibilities, it must contain the possibility that it can be destroyed; Oblivion forces this possibility to become a reality. Even with the entirety of the Wyld and all possibility at his fingertips, Autochthon grew weaker and weaker.

What said author wrote is equivalent to this: "Raksha Bob the Bore, walked quietly into Creation ... being so boring that even Fate ignored him. Other Raksha averted their attentions after seeing calcified remains of those who spared passing thought towards the Bob the Bore. And he sits on the rock, being so boring that everyone and everything ignore him or even fact he ever existed."

We're not talking about raksha, who represent possibilities. We are talking about Primordials, who represent inevitabilities. Death is also an inevitability. We are talking about several dead Primordials. That's a whole lot of inevitability. The only thing that could turn back Oblivion are sufficiently powerful Exalts, who represent inevitable possibility.

Raksha can survive in Underworld, it's no more hostile to them than Creation. Were said Raksha with AoCaB find Underworld Demenesne he can even build Freehold there. But unlike in Creation, Realm Defense Grid won't vaporize him and his "artistic vision" of transforming Underworld sky around his haunt into bright pink. Or changing ghosts into cute little bunnies. After eating their minds, of course.

The Realm Defense Grid only keeps the raksha from invading in force, where they become easy targets. A lone raksha, however, can easily slip into Creation, flitting from town to town and feasting on mortals. A raksha who somehow manages to wind up in a shadowland after nightfall, however, is not so fortunate. Certainly, AoCaB allows him to feed off of ghosts - but all ghosts are capable of using arcanoi. While there is no shortage of extras in the Underworld, it is not so easy to determine who is easy prey; he cannot simply stay away from obvious authority figures. Distance warps in the Underworld; towns are closer together. The Deathlords have a stranglehold on much of it, and even should he be clever enough to stay away from their enforces, every ghost in the Underworld is someone desperate enough to fight to retain their memories of life rather than passing on. Few would be interested in his lures, and the insular communities of the more rural towns would immediately turn him away.

[Rikandur Azebol]

By separating themselves from Chaos, at least in my opinion, Primordials & Raksha & Shinma became less than infinite. I think that Void is "Pure Chaos" in that sense that it's filtered trough Neverborn perceptions/wills similarly to what does Elemental Pole to Wyld before spewing it's element into Creation.

And again, Underworld is anything but stable ! As I see it it is something analogous to Bordermarches ... shaped and influenced by beliefs of the ghosts and living around certain thematics. The essence necessary for that is transferred trough Shadowlands that link Underworld to Creation. Later we have chaotic Labirynth, wich acts much like Middlemarches and Tombs of Neverborn wich work similar to Deep Wyld in the stability department. And then there is Underworldly equivalent of Pure Chaos, the Void.

Thus Pure Chaos and Void aren't separate as well, but are aspects of the same whatever-it-is. Void is all voidy thanks to Neverborn floating around and being ... whatever they actually are.

[Madwand]

By separating themselves from Chaos, at least in my opinion, Primordials & Raksha & Shinma became less than infinite

Cecelyne beg order to differ.

[aetherialDawn]

Cecelyne beg order to differ.

Cecelyne is infinite Cecelyne; but she defines herself as very much not infinite Ebon Dragon. She is an infinity of one thing, rather than being an infinity of all things. It is possible for Cecelyne to be lesser than a thing - or at least, not greater than a thing - if that thing is her.

[Mr.Bookworm]

By separating themselves from Chaos, at least in my opinion, Primordials & Raksha & Shinma became less than infinite.

Shinma are the principles of reality (that are entities in only the loosest sense and definitionally not an entity in one case) that govern how the world (Creation, the Wyld, everything) works, on the most fundamental level. They're what dictate stuff like "you may exist as a discrete individual", "things can come into conflict", and what have you. Everything in Exalted that we recognize as, well, the setting of Exalted exists under the auspices of the same shinma, even in Pure Chaos. Anything that doesn't touch on the exact same shinma that Creation is on exists in the Beyond, which is incomprehensible by definition.

So we have multiple levels of infinity here. You have the presumed infinities, such as Elsewhere and the Wyld. You have the actually infinite, such as the Void and Cecylene. And then you have the really infinite, including all that is Here and all that is Beyond.

The Raksha are creatures of the Here, existing along (assumedly) only this particular axis of reality, being associated with the Wyld. The shinma touch on all of them, or more accurately, draw the line between universal states in the first place. And the Primordials also touch on all of them, as Oramus possesses domain over the Beyond.

[Lix Lorn]

Boring stance on the Underworld Vael. Underworld wasn't designed so it should be inherently more fragile than Creation. And much less stable, because Creation was designed to resist Wyld.

The underworld was not designed. It just is. It is a mistake.

[The_Snark]

Boring stance on the Underworld Vael. Underworld wasn't designed so it should be inherently more fragile than Creation. And much less stable, because Creation was designed to resist Wyld.

Doesn't necessarily mean it's better at it; it's made using inferior raw materials. (For this purpose, anyway.)

Analogy: let's say you're building a house in the middle of a forest. Because wildfires occasionally sweep through the area, you want it to be as fireproof as possible. There are all sorts of things you can do to accomplish this: use dense old-growth timber that doesn't burn well, chop away all the brush near the house so that fires is less likely to reach the house, build the supports so that they'll collapse inward rather than outward, line the walls with asbestos... You can do a pretty good job, although it won't be perfect.

Fifty feet from your house, there's a cave. Nobody designed it to be fireproof; in fact, nobody designed it at all. But it's still more fireproof than your painstakingly constructed house will ever be, because rock just isn't flammable.

(Of course, there are disadvantages to living in a cave, just like there are disadvantages to living in the Underworld; but you would be safer from fires/the Wyld.)

[Turalisj]

Let me put it this way: the Wyld is made out of delicious pudding. Now, the Primordials don't like swimming in pudding, so they ate all the pudding in one spot to make a bubble and then mixed jello inside that bubble, which kept the pudding out. Then the Neverborn were created, and as they fell from the jello, they instinctively used their dark powers of death and destruction to boil some nice, hard toffee under the jello. Now, the jello may be more amorphous and liquid-like than the toffee, but it's solid enough that it merely rests on top of it instead of collapsing. Meanwhile, pieces of the toffee can be broken off to use as spoons to eat the pudding.

Gensh, you are the reason we need a like button

[Gensh]

Gensh, you are the reason we need a like button

Gotta start building that cult rating somehow.

[horngeek]

Heh.

Been watching a few fights from Ruroni Kenshin. So, of course, now I want to play an Even Blade martial artist.

Could even play a Night Caste Solar using Even Blade, masquerading as an Enlightened Mortal. Hmmmm...

Okay, quick question: how well does Even Blade hold up in Celestial-level combat?

[golentan]

Heh.

Been watching a few fights from Ruroni Kenshin. So, of course, now I want to play an Even Blade martial artist.

Could even play a Night Caste Solar using Even Blade, masquerading as an Enlightened Mortal. Hmmmm...

Okay, quick question: how well does Even Blade hold up in Celestial-level combat?

Really well, especially now with free combos. Even blade has a single charm that is more powerful than many whole celestial styles in the form of Gruesome Wood King Revelry. A single charm purchase that lets you reflexively become mote positive as long as you're landing your hits, and that's only one of the many powerful options available.

Awesome as the style is fluff wise, it needs to either be celestial tier (minimum) or have the nerf bat taken to it.

[horngeek]

And it doesn't fit Celestial Tier that well fluff-wise, does it?

So, my problem is less being ineffective, and more the likelyhood of the ST going LOLNO. Good to know.

[Turalisj]

Take a style made by Holden called Wind-Cutting Blade Style.

[Madwand]

So, my problem is less being ineffective, and more the likelyhood of the ST going LOLNO. Good to know.

Even Blade* is unusable under 2.5 rules. So, yeah, ST should go LOLNO.

[golentan]

Question. Could I convince someone to run a terrestrial game? I've got an idea floating for a dragon of a different color that I'd like to try.

[Rikandur Azebol]

The only Wyld parasites in the setting are the Daystar and a conscious Autochthon.

Untrue, whole Games of Divinity and Creation would cease to be once separated from the Wyld. Thus it's parasitic.

Neph is also responsible for Autochthon's incurable robo-cancer. The bleak interpretation is correct.

I will say that plot-impossibilities aren't bad thing but being bashed over the head with them is ... dulling the senses. At worst it shouldn't be so ... clean and without consequences.

I'll speak of this no further as it is IMO wrong theme for Exalted. Good for WoD, where things are purposefully bleak and irreparable.

No, a PSV is explicitly a universe all to itself, unbound by all things. Its core is a thing that cannot be touched by even the Solar who created it. It can only be exploded.

And I said that Wyld+Creation is another universe. And personally believe that mere Underworld trumping that is ... lame.

And it is stated that PSC is something that Solards can make but didn't even began to understand it's corona's potential, let alone what it have inside.

The problem is that there is that the Underworld is a tributary of Oblivion, and Oblivion is The End. It is an absolute entity whose gradual creep into all things is inevitable. That is the threat Creation faces. Since the Wyld contains all possibilities, it must contain the possibility that it can be destroyed; Oblivion forces this possibility to become a reality. Even with the entirety of the Wyld and all possibility at his fingertips, Autochthon grew weaker and weaker.

And You look at it from the Creation's point of view again. Oblivion is separated from Chaos. Probably by Neverbornization of Primordials.

Pure Chaos isn't merely containing every possibility. It is also fulfilling every possibility, it is every possibility and it's happening all the time and it is also happening not. Including End of Everything, even Oblivion.

Mere "The End as imagined by Neverborn" isn't even comparable to the true terror of Chaos.

We're not talking about raksha, who represent possibilities. We are talking about Primordials, who represent inevitabilities. Death is also an inevitability. We are talking about several dead Primordials. That's a whole lot of inevitability. The only thing that could turn back Oblivion are sufficiently powerful Exalts, who represent inevitable possibility.

Truth to be told Neverborn aren't dead. They are different than Primordials ... but neither of them Ended. And Your stance isn't exactly wrong, about Exalts being inevitable possibilities. I like sound of that. And ... what are Neverborn if not Primordial-equivalent creatures making "death", a creation of Primordials, into Death of Everyfin' ?

Underworld doesn't contain dead people, but contain souls of people existing in a different realm of being. Just like Neverborn are different from Primordials and Yozis, the same way ghosts of Underworld are different from mortals of Creation.

Being ghost is an alternative to normal reincarnation trough Lethe. That's all.

The Realm Defense Grid only keeps the raksha from invading in force, where they become easy targets. A lone raksha, however, can easily slip into Creation, flitting from town to town and feasting on mortals. A raksha who somehow manages to wind up in a shadowland after nightfall, however, is not so fortunate. Certainly, AoCaB allows him to feed off of ghosts - but all ghosts are capable of using arcanoi. While there is no shortage of extras in the Underworld, it is not so easy to determine who is easy prey; he cannot simply stay away from obvious authority figures. Distance warps in the Underworld; towns are closer together. The Deathlords have a stranglehold on much of it, and even should he be clever enough to stay away from their enforces, every ghost in the Underworld is someone desperate enough to fight to retain their memories of life rather than passing on. Few would be interested in his lures, and the insular communities of the more rural towns would immediately turn him away.

And mortals tell horror stories about monsters attacking and eating their souls. About Guild selling people to Raksha and taking back empty eyed puppets. That You should stab them with iron. Heck, danger level is the same for Raksha everywhere, trust me. In Creation proper there is even abundance of cold forged iron ! And Raksha are all if not adaptable to hostile environments. After all they exist in Creation. Fomorian factionists would hate Underworld ... a bit less than everything else, since it's about entropy of everything. For example.

Madwand, Mr.Bookworm and AetherialDawn explained it better already. Infinitytm is infinite, period. Anything that we can perceive to be limited in some fashion, is automatically non-infinite. Assume that I'm talking about absolute infinity there. Ok ?

The_Snark Your analogy is well chosen, but I beg to differ on the interpretation of Underworld as "solid". It isn't "solid" merely separated from Wyld. The cave You mentioned would be beneath Your basement, hidden away from the forest fires by virtue of being underground. We don't know if said cave is made of flammable stone or inflammable stone or if it contains explosive gas.