General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Doran]

I remember from somewhere a discussion among the Yozi about designing the infernal exalted, some of the Yozi didn't want them to have free will, but the Ebon dragon talked them down due to problems they have with their current exalted slaves. What were those problems?

[horngeek]

Concerns about the gods using the Primordial Surrender Oaths to force the Yozis to tell their slaves to back down. She Who Lives In Her Name still only agreed because Malfeas told her to.

[Drascin]

Funny, I was actually thinking something similar, as more options would be nice.

If my opinion counts for anything... please don't. I like Wing more having a mind, instead of a hollowed out skull .

[Sallera]

There was also the issue that an akuma's complete binding to their Urge means that they have to follow it, even when circumstances have changed so that doing so is likely to get them killed or discovered to no real benefit. Free will grants greater tactical flexibility.

[horngeek]

There was also the issue that an akuma's complete binding to their Urge means that they have to follow it, even when circumstances have changed so that doing so is likely to get them killed or discovered to no real benefit. Free will grants greater tactical flexibility.

This. Basically, the Yozis can either grant an Urge along the lines of 'obey me in all things, peons!', in which case the gods can say 'okay, tell all your guys to stop breaking you out kthanks', or they give specific Urges which they can't change even if the Urge now hurts the Yozis.

[Draken]

They could also give extensive and complex rules with caveats, exceptions and delineations in the same depth as we usually give to Wishes in D&D, so as to avoid corruptions.

Go, 2-page legalese urge.

[Tavar]

They could also give extensive and complex rules with caveats, exceptions and delineations in the same depth as we usually give to Wishes in D&D, so as to avoid corruptions.

Go, 2-page legalese urge.

Pretty sure that Urges are like motivations: they can't be that in depth.

[Lord Raziere]

Yea but why can't an Urge be: "Do anything to break the Yozis out, no matter what"?

[TheCountAlucard]

Because it might turn out to be that the easiest way for an akuma to break the Yozis out is to Neverborn them.

Needless to say, the Yozis don't want that.

[golentan]

Because it might turn out to be that the easiest way for an akuma to break the Yozis out is to Neverborn them.

Needless to say, the Yozis don't want that.

In fact, either this or extensive subsoul lobotomies is likely the only way for the yozis to break free.

Well, that or getting an essence 10 fiend willing to use the ebon dragon as the primordial's whipping boy. A plan of which I heartily approve.

For explanation, the Fiend anima power allows you to suspend eclipse caste oaths by commitment of motes. At their heart, the yozi's surrender oaths are (likely charm enhanced) eclipse oaths. The thing is, the lost botches and other consequences from the oaths still exist, the ebon dragon is merely subject to them instead. The solars canonically didn't reach essence ten by the end of the primordial war, so an essence 10 fiend can suspend any oaths made by the ancient solars. So, putting it all together, for a commitment of 10m per yozi, an elder fiend can release the imprisoned primordials from hell. All except for the ebon dragon, who has to sit alone in the corner suffering dozens of botches per tick plus whatever other consequences where piled on the oaths. Because **** that guy.

[Tavar]

For explanation, the Fiend anima power allows you to suspend eclipse caste oaths by commitment of motes. At their heart, the yozi's surrender oaths are (likely charm enhanced) eclipse oaths.

Likely not, actually. The Oaths were given to the Incarna themselves, not the Chosen. Hence the various abilities the Incarna have regarding the oaths, as well as demon summoning being a trickle down effect.

There is an essence 10 method to break the yozi free, located in the Infernal Monster tree. But, from what I remember, it can't be used by Akuma.

[Hiro Protagonest]

There is an essence 10 method to break the yozi free, located in the Infernal Monster tree. But, from what I remember, it can't be used by Akuma.

Yeah, I don't even know why that exists as something the yozis know about, since it's highly counter to the Yozis' intentions. The Ebon Dragon specifically wanted the exalts to literally live fast and die young. The only reason they can even reach Essence 10 is because the Yozis' severely underestimated the power of a solaroid with Primordial Essence.

On another note, when on YouTube, I realized the Asura's Wrath DLC "Part 4: Nirvana" was out. Found some good vids (uploaded by RajmanGamingHD), and watched it all.

Short version:

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Everyone dies, except Mithra and some scattered mortal groups across Gaea. Asura gets two power-ups in one part, but he kills the Creator God who is the source of all Mantra, and since the Eight Gaurdian Generals are literally made of Mantra, he dissolves into light telling Mithra not to cry. Yasha's already dead. Although he was still standing and full of energy during his fight with Asura, he knew he was dead from the moment he tore the metallic core from his chest and dissolved it into pure Mantra to give Asura the strength necessary to fight the Creator.

But I loved when Asura used what amounts to Ablation of Brass and Fire in his Essence 10 fistfight with the Creator. Near the end of the battle, he parries a punch. WITH HIS HEAD.

If you stick around after the credits (or just skip through them on the vid),

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it has a sort of "How I Met Your Mother" ending, with Mithra finishing up telling two mortal kids about her father. I want to know her secret for creating battle music when telling stories, and for being able to see and hear everything the demigod generals are doing even when unconscious.

And after that, there's one last 2D comic section...

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Everyone was reincarnated 870 million years later (where a statue of Asura IS STILL STANDING, RIGHT OUTSIDE THE CITY THEY'RE IN (if the first panel wasn't enough, you can see it on the left edge of the screen when they're showing the meteor)). But it shouldn't be taken too seriously, given that an unnamed woman who's a dead ringer for Chun-Li shows up.

[Ifni]

A question for you guys who've read more about Raksha charms than I have: if my E4 No Moon has an urgent need for a Chancel, how does she get one?

I can get to the Wyld pretty fast if I need to, and have Wyld-navigating Charms and good Occult. I have access to a severely weakened raksha who's been cooperative so far, if making it stronger (how?) would be the fastest route. I have some gossamer on hand and know the first four Charms of Quicksilver Hand of Dreams Style (no idea if this is relevant, I'm just listing off anything I can think of that might be pertinent).

Alternatively, is there anything in the Lunar (up to E4) or Solar (up to E3) charm trees, or sorcery up to Celestial Circle, that lets you make a safe place to hide someone, that you can access at will, without having to stay in it yourself?

(I... may or may not be facing the prospect of trying to deprogram/heal a completely insane GSP with an Urge directly opposed to my Motivation, while hiding from a full circle of angry E5 Solars, while working on my other projects (which are currently centered in... Greyfalls, dammit). Fortunately, the hostile circle in question has a lot of other things on their plate (like world conquest, sigh) and this will probably be a way down on their priority list.)

[Rikandur Azebol]

Fastest way for You to get Way Grace ? Find a Raksha who'll forge one for You. Or, if You are tattooed Lunar, take these charms that let You eat Rakshas to gain Graces. Make Your Noble Raksha slave labor hard in making un-heroic commoners for You to devour.

This kind of thing is fastest if You both go into someone's dream, since in the dreams things like time can go as funky as You wish it to be.

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah, I don't even know why that exists as something the yozis know about, since it's highly counter to the Yozis' intentions. The Ebon Dragon specifically wanted the exalts to literally live fast and die young. The only reason they can even reach Essence 10 is because the Yozis' severely underestimated the power of a solaroid with Primordial Essence.

The charm exists at lower essence, but only functions on oaths made by your essence or less. But you're right, that is a mistake.

[Ifni]

Fastest way for You to get Way Grace ? Find a Raksha who'll forge one for You. Or, if You are tattooed Lunar, take these charms that let You eat Rakshas to gain Graces. Make Your Noble Raksha slave labor hard in making un-heroic commoners for You to devour.

Sadly it looks like the Knack that gives me Graces is E5 and Wits 5, neither of which I have (and the ST is enforcing training times on Essence and Attributes) Obligatory grumble at Knack trees that jump around between different Attributes...

Is it the immunity to Shaping that's the problem re tattooed Lunars? If so, perhaps I could get the raksha to forge a Grace for a half-caste I trust - his mother is the GSP we're trying to save, so I'd have no objection to him controlling the chancel, and he's the one with a close relationship with the raksha anyway.

Once I have a Way grace, what's required to make the chancel? Time? Craft rolls? (sorry, but the Scroll of Errata doesn't have this information, and it's quicker to ask here than to trawl through GWM - I've never dealt with Grace magic before. Of course, feel free to tell me to just go read the book!)

This kind of thing is fastest if You both go into someone's dream, since in the dreams things like time can go as funky as You wish it to be.

Noted, thanks.

[The Demented One]

Yea but why can't an Urge be: "Do anything to break the Yozis out, no matter what"?

GSP Urges have to conform to a certain archetype. The Yozis can't sidestep that restriction.

[Lord Raziere]

GSP Urges have to conform to a certain archetype. The Yozis can't sidestep that restriction.

I meant Akuma urges.

[The_Snark]

The charm exists at lower essence, but only functions on oaths made by your essence or less. But you're right, that is a mistake.

This is what happens when you let the Ebon Dragon make all of your plans.

[Tavar]

Yeah, I don't even know why that exists as something the yozis know about, since it's highly counter to the Yozis' intentions. The Ebon Dragon specifically wanted the exalts to literally live fast and die young. The only reason they can even reach Essence 10 is because the Yozis' severely underestimated the power of a solaroid with Primordial Essence.

I think it was one of Malfeas's plans for Akuma. It's just his poor luck that only non-akuma can use the charm against the Yozi oaths.

[Lix Lorn]

I think the akuma can't use it /at all/. It's nature is 'utterly inimical to the oaths that bind them' or something.

[Tavar]

I think the akuma can't use it /at all/. It's nature is 'utterly inimical to the oaths that bind them' or something.

Similar effect, honestly.

[Lix Lorn]

Preeeetty much.

[Doran]

Hi could I please have feedback on the first couple of charms of the following style?

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Bayesian Style

This charm combines concepts of probability with logic.

Once there was a calculating maiden...
Possibility Enumeration
Cost: 4m, 1wp; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Simple
Keywords: Fate, Social
Duration: One Scene
Prerequisite Charms: None
she analyzed the paths of the yet to be

You gain precognition, and thus a bonus to attacks and defense to targets of Essence if they are lower than you, and a bonus equal to the difference between your and their Essence if higher.

Nurture the Mischance
Cost: ?; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Reflexive (Step 9)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Fate, Counterattack, Social
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Possibility Enumeration
and knew them to her advantage,

A clumsy blow often spells disaster. This charm enhances the precognition afforded by Possibility Enumeration, allowing the Martial Artist to redirect missed attacks against her
During step 9 of a missed attack against you, you may counterattack, using the attack dicepools and effects of the opponent, the target does not have to be the one who made it, but must be feasible (no melee attacks against distant opponents)

Other charms needed to be filled:
False positive/negative charm - (Obscure the Null Hypothesis?)
Increase botching charm (Every 1 counts as an external penalty for that roll repurchase 2s count as 1)
This all just happened in my mind - When activated may replay round. (potential cost 5m short tick 10m 1wp long tick)
Precognitive enviromental charm(?) permanent charm allows boost to resistance(?) Idea is knowing enviromental damage/physics will occur and avoiding it/avoiding worse - perhaps avoid kata for stuff like a wall falling on you etc
Charm for raising enemy target number - one reflexive version/scene/multi enemy version? - reference to Dragon’s shadow
Form charm
Charm to use targets MDV in place of your own if higher. - not sure about this one and how to relate it to probability

Could people please also give suggestions for cost?

[Tavar]

Okay, first off, some formatting advice: you want to bold the name of the charm and each of the headers(cost, mins, type, etc). The Sutra Lines should be italicized to prevent confusion. Did the format below.

Regarding the Style itself...eh. It doesn't really feel that Sidereal, but that's largely due to the lack of fluff. Is this your first supernatural Martial Art? If so, you might not want to start with a Sidereal Style.

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Once there was a calculating maiden...
Possibility Enumeration
Cost: 4m, 1wp; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Simple
Keywords: Fate, Social
Duration: One Scene
Prerequisite Charms: None
she analyzed the paths of the yet to be


Nurture the Mischance
Cost: ?; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Reflexive (Step 9)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Fate, Counterattack, Social
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Possibility Enumeration
and knew them to her advantage,
.

[Mr.Bookworm]

There is an essence 10 method to break the yozi free, located in the Infernal Monster tree. But, from what I remember, it can't be used by Akuma.

It's actually left ambiguous as to whether that will work, though. It's also a strictly one-shot affair, given that the backlash of the breaking oath will probably kill the Infernal instantly.

Also, y'know, good luck getting an Essence 10 Infernal who's willing to use it on you.

Hi could I please have feedback on the first couple of charms of the following style?

Sure.

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Bayesian Style

"Bayesian" isn't really a word that I would expect to see in Creation, being derived from a real name.

Also, all of the Sidereal styles follow the "(Color/Color-related word) (Noun) of (Noun)" naming scheme. Sapphire Veils of Passion, Obsidian Shards of Infinity, Charcoal March of Spiders, etc.

Also also, I'm guessing you're new to homebrewing, in which case I would advise you to not tackle a Sidereal style as your first thing. They're really hard to write. If you want to do a MA style, Celestial styles are a lot more straight-forward, and easier to cut your teeth on. You should also probably go read some of the Charms from the newer supplements (GotMH, Infernals, Alchemicals, etc.), as well as maybe some other homebrew (look up Revlid's work to start, along with TDO's old stuff), to get a good cross-section of solid Charm design. In particular, go read Sapphire Veils of Passion to get an idea of what SMA Charms look like.

Make sure you have the Scroll of Errata, too. It's free, and you can't design for 2.5 without it.

Once there was a calculating maiden...

As a note, all of the Sidereal sutras have names. They're also divided into two sections; the student's sutra and the elder's sutra, which break the Style into two distinct thematic halves.

Cost: 4m, 1wp;

One of the reasons SMAs are tricky to design for is cost, as sutras throw them all out of whack (for example, this Charm costs 1m when you have the elder sutra up and running). If you do design an SMA, I would look up Revlid's sutra system and just use that.

Keywords: Fate, Social

Neither of these keywords make sense. Fate isn't actually a keyword anymore; it got errata'd out of existence. Social is a keyword strictly applied to Charms that work on social combat time, which is measured in long ticks (a long tick is a minute).

You gain precognition, and thus a bonus to attacks and defense to targets of Essence if they are lower than you, and a bonus equal to the difference between your and their Essence if higher.

This is pretty unintelligible. No offense intended, but you really need to make your stuff readable and clear. From what I think you were going for, this doesn't work within the combat system, and even if you banged it into shape, it would be extremely broken. Make sure you have the combat steps down and know how DVs work.

Also, straight "precognition" isn't a power that works within the metaphysics of Exalted, without clarification as to how it's supposed to work.

Keywords: Combo-OK, Fate, Counterattack, Social

Again, Fate isn't a keyword and Social makes zero sense.

During step 9 of a missed attack against you, you may counterattack, using the attack dicepools and effects of the opponent, the target does not have to be the one who made it, but must be feasible (no melee attacks against distant opponents)

Uh. This is basically Snake Body Technique (Lunars, pg. 152). I'm unsure as to the balance of SBT in the first place, so I'm not sure about this one. As the first one, it's not really esoteric enough to be a Sidereal style Charm, anyway.

Anyway, hope that helps. I would really advise doing something simpler before tackling a Sidereal style, in any case.

EDIT: Also, Tavar's totally right about the formatting thing.

[Turalisj]

Also, all of the Sidereal styles follow the "(Color/Color-related word) (Noun) of (Noun)" naming scheme. Sapphire Veils of Passion, Obsidian Shards of Infinity, Charcoal March of Spiders, etc.

Let's see what Voidstate gives me....

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Grey Day of Keep
Pale Attack of Iron
Silver Method of Moonstone
Azure Daughter of Invigoration
Scarlet Garden of Steel
Pale Monkey of Spider
Quicksilver Mother of Master
Azure Ash of Starmetal
Flaxen Shield of Fist
Brilliant Tower of Sword

I wanna see someone make a SMA out of one of those

[Mr.Bookworm]

Let's see what Voidstate gives me....

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Grey Day of Keep
Pale Attack of Iron
Silver Method of Moonstone
Azure Daughter of Invigoration
Scarlet Garden of Steel
Pale Monkey of Spider
Quicksilver Mother of Master
Azure Ash of Starmetal
Flaxen Shield of Fist
Brilliant Tower of Sword

I wanna see someone make a SMA out of one of those

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Grey Days of Keep is a style focusing on the nature of standing vigil; and how a guard on constant watch will inevitably fall to paranoia and loneliness.

Pale Attacks of Iron is a style focusing on banes and hatred. A maiden takes up an iron sword to combat the Fair Folk. Within time, she wields it against anyone who stands in her way. So it goes.

Silver Methods of Moonstone is the Sidereal style most closely associated with Luna. It tells of madness and the clarity it brings.

Azure Daughters of Invigoration speaks of the joys and sorrows of parenthood.

Scarlet Garden of Steel is a meditation on the nature of conflict. Where blood falls, steel follows.

Quicksilver Mother of Mastery is the style of the sifu; on the bitter taste of watching your students surpass you.

Azure Ashes of Starmetal is a style closely associated with Saturn. Even the stars must fall from the sky.

Flaxen Shields of Fist is a style on the nature of battle in the defense of one's home.

Brilliant Tower of Swords is a style on the nature of mastery. No matter how hard you train, no matter how skilled you are, you will never reach the top of the tower.

Pale Monkey of Spider is what Sidereals scream upon throwing spider monkeys at their foe. It is not actually a style.

[Turalisj]

Why doesn't this forum have a thank button?

[Tavar]

All I think of when I hear Scarlet Garden of Steel is Unlimited Blade Works. Not sure whether to play it straight or to go for the humor.


Also, Mr.Bookworm, I largely agree with your comments on the balance/readability of the style. Though, on making it odd enough, it could be done pretty easily. The Loom of Fate is pretty much a giant probability device: make the fluff stuff like seeing the Silver threads more clearly, and it could work.