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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Frog View Post
    (Italics my own)

    But where does that leave demisexuals and pansexuals?
    Demisexuals not sure but I could probably fit them in somewhere if I were designing a real survey.

    As for pansexuals I still don't see the difference between being pan and being bi. I know the definitions but they still seem almost identical if not identical to being bi.

    Besides a pansexual could still answer all these questions.
    Last edited by pffh; 2012-04-20 at 12:22 PM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I haven't noticed much good from it, which is why I haven't bothered the last few years. It does spread awareness a bit, but in high school I saw a lot of mockery of the participants (because they can't talk back to protect themselves), and in general a bunch of apathy because "Those are gay-people issues, and I'm straight, so who cares?"
    And why did they put it on Hitler's Birthday?

    I think we should have a day when we build large bonfires and burn queerphobes in effigy. a) it would be much more fun, and b) we'd get more attention. We could burn sausages and marshmallows and do all the other things people do on these occasions.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Frog View Post
    (Italics my own)

    That's...not really that complex, but I do like it better than the linear scale. There's really nothing you can do to include everybody, but at least if a scale is going to be oversimplified, it makes more sense to do it that way. Perhaps a perpendicular grid could work too, although some might consider that ugly and space-wasting.

    But where does that leave demisexuals and pansexuals?
    You should use bold text, not italic. All quoted text turns italic.
    Maybe demisexuals can fill it in in grey and then everyone else can use black? (Get it, 'cause they're grey asexuals.)
    As far as I can tell, bi and pan are the same for all practical purposes. It's like a carpet versus a rug. The terms are often used interchangeably. I know a guy whose self-description fits the definition of pan better than that of bi, but he identifies as bi.
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  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    And why did they put it on Hitler's Birthday?

    I think we should have a day when we build large bonfires and burn queerphobes in effigy. a) it would be much more fun, and b) we'd get more attention. We could burn sausages and marshmallows and do all the other things people do on these occasions.
    How about a day where the men eat sausages and the women eat tacos!
    Last edited by pffh; 2012-04-20 at 12:29 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    Is there anything to suggest that the Day of Silence actually does something or is it more of a feel-good exercise?
    That's not a very nice way to put it! I assume it's an awareness raising thing, since the idea is you go about your normal life (to class or whatever), just silently and people might then think "Oh, people who aren't straight might feel like they have to be silent around me. I should be a better ally." or "As a closeted bisexual, it makes me feel supported to know that X is such a strong supporter of LGBT+ rights that they'll stay silent for a whole day to make that point." or whatever. I don't know if there are statistics that show any particular concrete effect, but every little helps!

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I think I tasted some at some point when somebody had a baby and there was somebody's milk in the fridge for feeding the baby when the mother was asleep. (This is a good idea for mothers who like to sleep occasionally!)
    It's a bit weird to taste when you're no longer a baby/small child, but it's not unpleasant. Just unusual, considering we don't taste it often if at all. But yes, it's definitely more palatable (and obviously more healthy) than formulas are.
    I read that as you sneaking the milk while the mother was asleep and I was like "Uh, Nope, you should probably not steal baby-milk. They need that stuff!".

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Frog View Post

    I'm somewhat skeptical about acupuncture myself, but I never looked at it this way before. Putting aside the whole chi/meridians thing, I just thought that putting needles into your skin was supposed to stimulate...some kind of physiological quality, whether that's blood flow or what have you.
    Could easily stimulate blood flow or some such. Question is, is that helpful or neutral (or harmful, but I doubt it)?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    It has to be three-dimensional somehow. I'm picturing two parallel scales running from zero to ten. One measures attraction to male-bodied people, and the other attraction to female-bodied people. One fills in the two bars up to wherever they want. No answer means asexual, "pure" androphilic would be 10 on the male-bodied scale, "pure" gynophilic would be 10 on the female-bodied scale, and "pure" bisexual would be 10 on both. Somebody who's bi but tends to prefer men might put a 10 on the male-bodied scale and a 6 on the female-bodied scale. That's about as complex as anything needs to be. Thoughts? (I'm not trying to exclude pansexuals or any other groups; I just threw this thought together in a few seconds and don't know how to fit them in or if they even need to be a separate scale.)
    I was thinking x and y, so a plane. (0,0) being asexual, then y-axis being "attracted to men" and x-axis being "attracted to women". Very simplistic. Then you could add z-axis for more complexity. And you could track through time by having a line or a curve rather than a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trilby View Post
    From what I understand, acupuncture has been shown to have some benefits to health, but I'll need to find the artcile about it.

    And nothing can be better than a pot of proper milk vanilla ice cream. Yum <3
    Agreed on the icecream! I understand acupuncture has been recognised by the WHO for helping with certain conditions, including fatigue, so that suggests it has been proven to match or exceed placebo results for those conditions. I don't know if it's better than anyone who invites you to a special soothing room, asks you about your health problems, assures you they will apply their skills to your particular issue, gets you to lie down and does something difficult-seeming for them and relaxing for you. I don't know how _good_ a placebo they're measuring against, or how much better acupuncture was than their placebo. I would certainly believe it would beat a hastily dispensed sugar pill, I have my doubts of its chances against something more along the lines of what I described!

    A man I know tells me his father, unable to go under anaesthetic due to allergy problems, had an acupuncture practitioner fly in from China (they're Swiss, apparently this was covered by their insurance. Wow!) and isolate a nerve in his neck and stick a needle in it so his arm went totally numb and they could do surgery on his shoulder. That seems beyond placebo!

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    Last edited by KenderWizard; 2012-04-20 at 12:34 PM.

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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    A man I know tells me his father, unable to go under anaesthetic due to allergy problems, had an acupuncture practitioner fly in from China (they're Swiss, apparently this was covered by their insurance. Wow!) and isolate a nerve in his neck and stick a needle in it so his arm went totally numb and they could do surgery on his shoulder. That seems beyond placebo!
    Not really. Pain is all in your mind and there have been surgeries that rely entirely on a placebo for anaestethics.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    You should use bold text, not italic. All quoted text turns italic.
    Maybe demisexuals can fill it in in grey and then everyone else can use black? (Get it, 'cause they're grey asexuals.)
    As far as I can tell, bi and pan are the same for all practical purposes. It's like a carpet versus a rug. The terms are often used interchangeably. I know a guy whose self-description fits the definition of pan better than that of bi, but he identifies as bi.
    But carpets and rugs are different! At least here. Carpets are stuck down and usually cover the whole area up to the walls. Rugs aren't and often have nice edges and usually don't cover the whole area.

    I just heard the word "greysexual" recently, and I really liked it! Is it used the same as "demisexual" or not? Because it seemed more like someone who just generally didn't feel very much sexual desire, rather than someone who feels sexual desire only after building a strong emotional connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by pffh View Post
    Not really. Pain is all in your mind and there have been surgeries that rely entirely on a placebo for anaestethics.
    Just the arm, though? I mean, they were sawing his bone! It seemed very impressive, but you're right, I wouldn't rule it out 100%. It's just going to be really difficult to do controlled experiments!

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    But carpets and rugs are different!
    I have a carpet rug...

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    I thought we hadn't seen much of Fang lately.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    I thought we hadn't seen much of Fang lately.
    It's a rug, made out of (very good) carpet, not fur .

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    "Addicted to being transgender?" (That's what I thought it was going to be when it was the addiction page.) Acupuncture is strange to me. I think it does help people with some things, because it's very mentally soothing to have someone pay lots of attention to you, but I dunno if the whole pins thing does anything or not. Maybe it relaxes you a lot, that would be helpful. I'm not putting it with, y'know, vaccines or anything, but it's not as bad as homeopathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trilby View Post
    From what I understand, acupuncture has been shown to have some benefits to health, but I'll need to find the artcile about it.

    And nothing can be better than a pot of proper milk vanilla ice cream. Yum <3
    Acupuncture is on those rare cures that I wouldn't hesitate to call miraculous. It gives the patient non-localized, vague benefits whether its practitioner follows the tried and true path of Chinese tradition, sticks the needles in randomly, or doesn't stick the needles in at all! What could that possibly be call but miraculous?

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...n_true_acu.php
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    As far as I can tell, bi and pan are the same for all practical purposes. It's like a carpet versus a rug. The terms are often used interchangeably. I know a guy whose self-description fits the definition of pan better than that of bi, but he identifies as bi.
    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    But carpets and rugs are different! At least here. Carpets are stuck down and usually cover the whole area up to the walls. Rugs aren't and often have nice edges and usually don't cover the whole area.
    Just wondering how many peeps shared my personal definition:
    I tend to think of bisexual as attraction to two or more genders. Poly = many, and pan = all. parallelogram - rectangle - square theory.

    Or is that wildly inaccurate? (I dunno, a lotta bi folk are gonna say they're not exclusively attracted to cis-gendered humans, and then you're gonna take ages drawing the line)
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    That's not a very nice way to put it! I assume it's an awareness raising thing, since the idea is you go about your normal life (to class or whatever), just silently and people might then think "Oh, people who aren't straight might feel like they have to be silent around me. I should be a better ally." or "As a closeted bisexual, it makes me feel supported to know that X is such a strong supporter of LGBT+ rights that they'll stay silent for a whole day to make that point." or whatever. I don't know if there are statistics that show any particular concrete effect, but every little helps!
    If you want to get your point across you can't always be nice.

    If there's no concrete effects then no, this doesn't help. How many people think this? Is there a more effective way to do the same thing? Has it been studied?

    The Day of Silence has been going on for 16 years. Has there been any attempts to seriously evaluate this?

    Edit: It just seems to me the great civil rights leaders won their victories by speaking up, not shutting up.
    Last edited by Asta Kask; 2012-04-20 at 01:25 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by squidbreath View Post
    Just wondering how many peeps shared my personal definition:
    I tend to think of bisexual as attraction to two or more genders. Poly = many, and pan = all. parallelogram - rectangle - square theory.

    Or is that wildly inaccurate? (I dunno, a lotta bi folk are gonna say they're not exclusively attracted to cis-gendered humans, and then you're gonna take ages drawing the line)
    Yup it will take ages drawing the line since this bi guy right here is not just attracted to cis gendered humans and are there really bisexuals that are exclusively sexually attracted to cis gendered people?
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by squidbreath View Post
    Just wondering how many peeps shared my personal definition:
    I tend to think of bisexual as attraction to two or more genders. Poly = many, and pan = all. parallelogram - rectangle - square theory.

    Or is that wildly inaccurate? (I dunno, a lotta bi folk are gonna say they're not exclusively attracted to cis-gendered humans, and then you're gonna take ages drawing the line)
    Bisexual and pansexual are identical. The term bisexual was just coined at a time that only the two binary genders were being considered, just as the term biscuit was coined when they were literally twice cooked.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Bisexual and pansexual are identical. The term bisexual was just coined at a time that only the two binary genders were being considered, just as the term biscuit was coined when they were literally twice cooked.
    Eh, I'd argue that there are bisexuals who are squicked out by trans people, or who for any other reason are not attracted to people outside the gender binary.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by blackfox View Post
    Eh, I'd argue that there are bisexuals who are squicked out by trans people, or who for any other reason are not attracted to people outside the gender binary.
    Just as there are straight people who would happily date trans people and straight people who wouldn't, as well as people who identify as pansexuals who just won't find themselves attracted to certain non-binary people.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    I'm with Rawhide on this one. I've always been bothered by the "need" to specify pansexual.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Outside the gender binary's OK. But I feel that saying "Oh, I like trans people too" is kind of pointing out the "difference" they have to cis people. Like saying that if you don't specifically identify as pansexual, then it's like you're saying "Oh, I like men and women... but not *those* trans people". When in reality it shouldn't really matter. Trans women are women and trans men are men. If you like men, you don't have to specify "Oh, I like trans men too". Trans men are men. Maybe a specific person will like trans men, maybe they won't. It's kind of like people saying they like or dislike certain features. That doesn't make them featuresexual. The difference between a cis man and a trans man should be nothing different than the difference between a man with brown eyes and a man with green eyes. May be more or less desirable for some, but is still just a man.

    ... That made more sense in my head. I haven't felt well at all, I hope that was at elast somewhat understandable.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Well, there is a significant difference for many people in the form of the equipment. Equipment being, after all, the part of the person arguably most relevant to the "-sexual" part of hetero-, bi-, or homo-. But I do agree that you don't need an additional label to specify, given that gender/sex disagreement allows pretty much any label to be applicable depending on inclusiveness and inclination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Meh, I'm not really bothered by the different ways people choose to label their sexual orientation. *shrugs*
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keveak View Post
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I have a carpet rug...
    Woah!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kindablue View Post
    Acupuncture is on those rare cures that I wouldn't hesitate to call miraculous. It gives the patient non-localized, vague benefits whether its practitioner follows the tried and true path of Chinese tradition, sticks the needles in randomly, or doesn't stick the needles in at all! What could that possibly be call but miraculous?

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...n_true_acu.php
    That guy I mentioned has told me to get acupuncture. I reeeeeally don't feel like dropping a hundred quid on someone sticking some needles in me. Apparently I should just ask my friend to do it! Then I could spend that money on bagels!

    Quote Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
    If you want to get your point across you can't always be nice.

    If there's no concrete effects then no, this doesn't help. How many people think this? Is there a more effective way to do the same thing? Has it been studied?

    The Day of Silence has been going on for 16 years. Has there been any attempts to seriously evaluate this?

    Edit: It just seems to me the great civil rights leaders won their victories by speaking up, not shutting up.
    There's a difference between there being "no concrete data on benefits" and "no benefits at all", since there may or may not be real studies (sloppy googling isn't working, I have a headache) and it's pretty hard to tease people's feelings out in surveys. For all we know, it does help. It helps people who do it and it raises awareness. No, that's not all we can do, but it's not all we do do. No, it's not the most helpfulest thing in the world, but sometimes, a little is all we have to give, and there's no reason not to, even if it only makes a little difference, only to you and your friends and your school. That's okay. It calls attention, like speaking does, and it's something that stands out a bit, more than a poster at a school, I'd say. We should not do things that are harmful. I doubt this harms anything, so why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluewind95 View Post
    Outside the gender binary's OK. But I feel that saying "Oh, I like trans people too" is kind of pointing out the "difference" they have to cis people. Like saying that if you don't specifically identify as pansexual, then it's like you're saying "Oh, I like men and women... but not *those* trans people". When in reality it shouldn't really matter. Trans women are women and trans men are men. If you like men, you don't have to specify "Oh, I like trans men too". Trans men are men. Maybe a specific person will like trans men, maybe they won't. It's kind of like people saying they like or dislike certain features. That doesn't make them featuresexual. The difference between a cis man and a trans man should be nothing different than the difference between a man with brown eyes and a man with green eyes. May be more or less desirable for some, but is still just a man.

    ... That made more sense in my head. I haven't felt well at all, I hope that was at elast somewhat understandable.
    I agree with this. I have absolutely no problem with someone calling themselves "pansexual". I use "bisexual" because I identify with it; I heard it first, it's easy to use because the people around me understand it, it works for what I want the word to do, which is to name my identity so I can express it to others. If you want your word to name your identity in a way that avoids any suggestion of a gender binary, that's fine too, and I definitely understand it.

    The only problem I have is when people say "pansexual means not 'seeing' gender" / "I'm attracted to people, not genders" / "because I'm attracted to all people, not just cis people" / "because I'm attracted to trans people". All of which are frankly pretty rude to people who use the word "bisexual" (as discussed before, words don't always mean exactly what they would mean if English was Lego and all the bits were always all the same) and also don't make a huge amount of sense. I don't think anyone is attracted to genders. Straight women are not attracted to ALL men. And the last one is a bit weird, because it implies that trans people aren't in the "bi" but are in the "pan", which I don't like the implications of. Again, "bisexual" doesn't mean "only attracted to those who conform to the gender binary" and also, trans men are still men, etc.

    Not that it keeps me up at night, just my thoughts are ... long. Speaking of up all night, I'm going to bed!

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    There's a difference between there being "no concrete data on benefits" and "no benefits at all", since there may or may not be real studies (sloppy googling isn't working, I have a headache) and it's pretty hard to tease people's feelings out in surveys. For all we know, it does help. It helps people who do it and it raises awareness. No, that's not all we can do, but it's not all we do do. No, it's not the most helpfulest thing in the world, but sometimes, a little is all we have to give, and there's no reason not to, even if it only makes a little difference, only to you and your friends and your school. That's okay. It calls attention, like speaking does, and it's something that stands out a bit, more than a poster at a school, I'd say. We should not do things that are harmful. I doubt this harms anything, so why not?
    There's something called opportunity cost. I don't know how much money the promotion of the Day of Silence cost, and it probably isn't much, but could the money, could the time, could the enthusiasm be used better. That's something anyone who has limited resources has to consider.

    Now, we don't know that it helps. For all we know it hurts - we have no less data supporting that. Does it raise consciousness? We don't know. Do people remember this the week after? We don't know.

    It's been 16 years - an evaluation would be nice, otherwise we don't know whether we should be doing this or something else.
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    smile Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    [QUOTE=KenderWizard;13103555]
    That guy I mentioned has told me to get acupuncture. I reeeeeally don't feel like dropping a hundred quid on someone sticking some needles in me. Apparently I should just ask my friend to do it! Then I could spend that money on bagels! QUOTE]

    Not to be the grim Kobold of today, but that might be far more dangerous than it sounds. I can't find the link, but I recently read a site talking about the cases where pseudoscience caused actual harm (to disspell the idea that homeopathy and others are harmless), and... Well, the needless punctured the lungs. ;_;

    On a slightly less grim topic, I quite agree that pansexuality and bisexuality are both equally valid. As long as everybody is having fun and not backtalking the other words, it should be fine.

    And another thing I agree on is sleep, sweet sweet sleep.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    [QUOTE=Keveak;13103659]
    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    That guy I mentioned has told me to get acupuncture. I reeeeeally don't feel like dropping a hundred quid on someone sticking some needles in me. Apparently I should just ask my friend to do it! Then I could spend that money on bagels! QUOTE]

    Not to be the grim Kobold of today, but that might be far more dangerous than it sounds. I can't find the link, but I recently read a site talking about the cases where pseudoscience caused actual harm (to disspell the idea that homeopathy and others are harmless), and... Well, the needless punctured the lungs. ;_;
    Yeah, that is a problem, and I'm very sceptical of homeopathy in general, acupuncture is one of the things I do think works.

    Be it placebo, or us just being human pincushions, there is evidence it works.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenderWizard View Post
    That guy I mentioned has told me to get acupuncture. I reeeeeally don't feel like dropping a hundred quid on someone sticking some needles in me. Apparently I should just ask my friend to do it! Then I could spend that money on bagels!
    There are many studies that support acupuncture. Some are good, some are large, but when you do a good, large study the results vanish. A common trick when results fail to appear is to concludethat since the placebo results were as good as the actual treatment, the placebo must be effective as well!

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ure-revisited/

    http://whatstheharm.net/acupuncture.html

    One problem is that many acupuncturists do not grasp that there's a need for keeping needles sterile. And if they practice what they preach, they shouldn't think so - after all, diseases are caused by disrupted energy flow along the meridians, not by bacteria or viruses. So abscesses and transfer of blood-borne diseases are rather common compared to when you go to a real hospital.
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keveak View Post

    Yeah, that is a problem, and I'm very sceptical of homeopathy in general, acupuncture is one of the things I do think works.

    Be it placebo, or us just being human pincushions, there is evidence it works.
    I go beyond skepticism for homeopathy and say that it's quite frankly offensive to anyone that studies and practices real actual medicine and dangerous for the poor people that believe in this crap and I will go out of my way to verbally state my offense to people that peddle this crap.

    Acupuncture on the other hand is still in the iffy area and I've both seen studies that show that it has the same effect as a placebo and studies that show it has slightly better effect then a placebo on certain things like anxiety and stress. Still I would be very skeptical and if someone actually decides to have it done to them (although I'd probably advise against it) make sure the needles are sterile.

    In other topics is there a special word in english for the cover you use on you when you sleep or is it just a cover?
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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    Also, to be more straightforward, the placebo effect is basically just the gestalt of all of the stuff that the researchers couldn't account for in the study, including their own biases. It's noise that can't itself be used in any significant way in any sort of medicine. Acupuncture does not work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Bisexual and pansexual are identical. The term bisexual was just coined at a time that only the two binary genders were being considered, just as the term biscuit was coined when they were literally twice cooked.
    And now we finally know what Triscuitable's name means!
    ... I came to appreciate that mountains make poor receptacles for dreams.

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    Default Re: LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

    "Can be cooked three times"?
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