Nooblet looking for advice

[LanSlyde]

Hello, kinda new to the game, but I was wondering if you people could help me with a dilemma. Currently we are a lvl4 4 member party consisting of 1 warforged fighter, one teifling assassin, 1 tiefling psion (nomad focus), and myself the asherati cleric of Zoser.

anyway, I suppose I'll be focusing more on the martial, buff side of clerics as opposed to the back line healer. So that in mind I'm probably going to pick up Body to Body eventually and then start DMM Persisting ALL the buffs (Chasing perfection, stone body, etc).

I'm trying to play the support fighter/caster right now. To that end I am using a spiked chain as my main weapon and two Eagle Claws for backup in case I lose my chain somehow (failed trip attacks).

Bit of a ramble, but my main question is this, should I (when I acquire the gold) either enchant my Eagle Claws (duel wielding) as +1 shock elemental air power and +1 acidic elemental earth power OR leave them as masterwork and enchant my spiked chain as a +1 fleshgrinding, masterslaying, desiccating burst spiked chain?

I realize this may be a bit incoherent so if you have any questions feel free to ask. Feedback always accepted!

[sonofzeal]

You're.... lvl 4? I wouldn't worry about much there, yet. That's quite a lot of gold you're looking at. Isn't that something like 50,000 gp for the Spiked Chain you're proposing? If you've got that kind of money, there's probably other things to invest in too - various defences, Nightsticks for DMM, Periapts of Wisdom, etc.

That said, do enchant your primary weapon before you focus on your secondary ones. Also, you might want to get an adamantine one before you really start investing in its enchantments.

[LanSlyde]

You're.... lvl 4? I wouldn't worry about much there, yet. That's quite a lot of gold you're looking at. Isn't that something like 50,000 gp for the Spiked Chain you're proposing? If you've got that kind of money, there's probably other things to invest in too - various defences, Nightsticks for DMM, Periapts of Wisdom, etc.

That said, do enchant your primary weapon before you focus on your secondary ones. Also, you might want to get an adamantine one before you really start investing in its enchantments.

I don't have that kind of money, but if all goes well this campaign should last a long time. As for nightsticks, couldn't I just grab a few Extra Turning feats? As for defensive gear... I was really only planning on getting some Celestial chain-mail... could you explain why I should grab an adamantine weapon before enchanting it?

[sonofzeal]

I don't have that kind of money, but if all goes well this campaign should last a long time. As for nightsticks, couldn't I just grab a few Extra Turning feats? As for defensive gear... I was really only planning on getting some Celestial chain-mail... could you explain why I should grab an adamantine weapon before enchanting it?

At low levels, sure, pick up Extra Turning. But you'll be needing those feats for the most part. DMM + Extend + Persist is already three, you're using a spiked chain so that's EWP for four, then you'll want Combat Expertise and Improved Trip to actually trip with it, and now we've used all but one feat you'll get short of epic level. Some of that cost can be mitigated, especially with flaws, but you're still pretty tight for feats and there's a whole lot more you'll be wanting (Combat Reflexes, Martial Study, etc).

Nightsticks are cheaper than feats at most levels. Trust me.

As to the weapon - the rules seems to imply that you can add enhancements incrementally, but there's no way I know of by RAW to transfer enhancements to another weapon. Unless you enjoy selling a good fraction of your WBL at half value, it's best to pick up whatever special material first, so that you don't have to change mid-stream.

Oh, and for defences, you might want to check this thread of mine. Attacks against AC are the most common sort of monstrous attack forms, and anecdotal data on page 5 indicates that it's a major source of PC fatalities too. There's a table in there somewhere of a rough order in which to purchase various sources of AC boosts, but as a cleric with Greater Magic Vestments / Greater Magic Weapon (not to mention Shield of Faith and others), you'll be able to deviate quite substantially and save a lot of money while still being harder to kill than McFighter. I do recommend spending at least a quarter of your gold on various defences though, working around whatever you can already cover via spells. A well-played Cleric can be flat out immune to, or at least highly resistant to, just about everything - while still being able to lay the holy smackdown on the filthy heathens.

[Callyn]

For your cleric's God, check into the Undeath and Planning domains. Undeath gets you Extra Turning as a bonus feat and Planning gets you Extend Spell. It would save you some feats.

[LanSlyde]

At low levels, sure, pick up Extra Turning. But you'll be needing those feats for the most part. DMM + Extend + Persist is already three, you're using a spiked chain so that's EWP for four, then you'll want Combat Expertise and Improved Trip to actually trip with it, and now we've used all but one feat you'll get short of epic level short of flaws.

Nightsticks are cheaper than feats at most levels. Trust me.

Probably should have mentioned this earlier but house rules are we get feats every even level, however we must burn spell level to get them.

As to the weapon - the rules seems to imply that you can add enhancements incrementally, but there's no way I know of by RAW to transfer enhancements to another weapon. Unless you enjoy selling a good fraction of your WBL at half value, it's best to pick up whatever special material first, so that you don't have to change mid-stream.

A valid point, but is adamantine really worth the extra gold?

Oh, and for defences, you might want to check this thread of mine. Attacks against AC are the most common sort of monstrous attack forms, and anecdotal data on page 5 indicates that it's a major source of PC fatalities too. There's a table in there somewhere of a rough order in which to purchase various sources of AC boosts, but as a cleric with Greater Magic Vestments / Greater Magic Weapon (not to mention Shield of Faith and others), you'll be able to deviate quite substantially and save a lot of money while still being harder to kill than McFighter. I do recommend spending at least a quarter of your gold on various defences though, working around
whatever you can already cover via spells.

Thanks for the link, I'll look into it.

A well-played Cleric can be flat out immune to, or at least highly resistant to, just about everything - while still being able to lay the holy smackdown on the filthy heathens.

Amen brotha.

[LanSlyde]

For your cleric's God, check into the Undeath and Planning domains. Undeath gets you Extra Turning as a bonus feat and Planning gets you Extend Spell. It would save you some feats.

Thanks for the tip, sadly Zoser does not come with Undeath or Planning.

[sonofzeal]

Probably should have mentioned this earlier but house rules are we get feats every even level, however we must burn spell level to get them.

Still, feats are valuable, and few characters ever have enough. I'm not saying avoid Extra Turning, but at least one Nightstick should be a given. More depends on how your DM feels about stacking them.

A valid point, but is adamantine really worth the extra gold?

At lower levels it's less important, but at higher levels you definitely want some special material. Adamantine is good because it doesn't come with the drawbacks of either Cold Iron (higher enchant cost) or Silver (lower damage), and can also be used to bypass hardness and smash the environment. Furthermore, it makes your weapon more resistant to sundering. If your game is going long-term, I'd pick it up sooner rather than later. Silver and Cold Iron are still entirely possible though, and make good backup weapons. And Cold Iron can still be targeted by GMW and Align Weapon.

Thanks for the link, I'll look into it.

Nifty! ^^

[Andezzar]

Silver and Cold Iron are still entirely possible though, and make good backup weapons.

Silver can also be simulated by an oil.

And Cold Iron can still be targeted by GMW and Align Weapon.

Are there materials that can't?

[sonofzeal]

Silver can also be simulated by an oil.

Are there materials that can't?

No. But Cold Iron's whole disadvantage is the difficulty in enchanting it. GMW is an easy way around that for a Cleric. It means you won't be getting special properties, but can still beat "DR X/Cold Iron and Magic", which a few things have.

[LanSlyde]

hmm, thanks for the feedback. But I'm still undecided on what I should try and focus on. Either getting the Claws enchanted or the spiked chain. Do you guy have any other enchantment ideas that would be effective?

btw, the majority of the campaign is going to be cityscape and eventually pan out to full scale war between nations.

[Answerer]

Probably should have mentioned this earlier but house rules are we get feats every even level, however we must burn spell level to get them.

What do you mean by "burn spell level"? That sounds very, very bad...

[LanSlyde]

What do you mean by "burn spell level"? That sounds very, very bad...

basically up to level 8, the spell casters get spell levels and feats alongside each other. after that if we want more feats our spell level progression will have to be halted. basically if we want lvl 5 spells we don't get a feat. But if we want another feat we won't get lvl 5 spells until next spell level. Not really burning levels so much as slowing spell progress.

[Answerer]

So wait, you get no feats unless you lose spellcasting levels?

Well, that's... one way to nerf spellcasters, I guess.

I'd recommend, uh... never taking that trade, by the way.

[Andezzar]

No, as I understand it, they an exchange a new spell level for a feat.
So at level 9 you either get level 5 spells or a feat. If you take the feat the earliest level you can get level 5 spells is at class level 11.

I would not do that either.

How does Caster Level progress, if you take the feat?

[LanSlyde]

No, as I understand it, they an exchange a new spell level for a feat.
So at level 9 you either get level 5 spells or a feat. If you take the feat the earliest level you can get level 5 spells is at class level 11.

I would not do that either.

How does Caster Level progress, if you take the feat?

You are correct in your understanding. Caster level progresses normally, sans higher spell levels.

[LanSlyde]

So... Fleshgrinding + masterslaying + desiccating burst. Good idea or bad Idea for my chain?

[Andezzar]

I don't like giving away my weapon, but otherwise the combination is interesting.

AFAIK Masterslaying is only in BovD, which is 3.0. You may want to aks you rGM if the book is permitted.

[Slipperychicken]

If you have to lose spell levels to gain feats, don't ever gain feats. Spells rock so much harder than feats ever will. The first rule of optimization is Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels.

I'm making a level 4 DMM: Persist Cleric now, and it is really hard. If Nightstick-stacking is allowed, spend your gold on as many as you can before the GM starts throwing books at you.

Without Undeath or Planning domains, you're even more strapped for feats than before. From the way you described the feat system, it looks like you're only going to have room for Extend, Persist, and DMM: Persist unless flaws are in play and/or you're a Human. Get Power Attack too, so you can actually benefit from things like Divine Power.

Get Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell (On the SRD, 3k a pop, each one works 3 times a day), to essentially double the number of spells you can keep Persisted each day. This works because metamagics apply in the most beneficial order, with Persist changing the spell's duration to 24 hours, then Extend doubling it to 48.

Get a Ring of Counterspells, and store Dispel Magic in it to counter any dispelling thrown at you. Later on, pick up a Ring of Spell Battle. Since you rely on Persistent effects, that means you're really vulnerable to Dispelling, so you want to defend against it as best you can.

[Darrin]

So... Fleshgrinding + masterslaying + desiccating burst. Good idea or bad Idea for my chain?

So if you hit with the chain, free action to activate fleshgrinding, then activate masterslaying (text does not specify an action type, but command usually defaults to standard action), and if it hits it auto-crits for... are we using the Sandstorm or MIC version of desiccating burst? If it's MIC, then that's an extra 1d8 damage + fatigue (no save).

Hmm. I'm not sure how I'd rule on fleshgrinding + masterslaying, but your crit effect seems a bit weak. I'd consider Enervating + Slow Burst + Prismatic Burst (assuming you want to forego the autokill with Vorpal).

[LanSlyde]

I don't like giving away my weapon, but otherwise the combination is interesting.

AFAIK Masterslaying is only in BovD, which is 3.0. You may want to aks you rGM if the book is permitted.

All core and supplemental handbooks are permitted.

[LanSlyde]

I don't like giving away my weapon, but otherwise the combination is interesting.

AFAIK Masterslaying is only in BovD, which is 3.0. You may want to aks you rGM if the book is permitted.

All core and supplemental handbooks are permitted.

[LanSlyde]

So if you hit with the chain, free action to activate fleshgrinding, then activate masterslaying (text does not specify an action type, but command usually defaults to standard action), and if it hits it auto-crits for... are we using the Sandstorm or MIC version of desiccating burst? If it's MIC, then that's an extra 1d8 damage + fatigue (no save).

Hmm. I'm not sure how I'd rule on fleshgrinding + masterslaying, but your crit effect seems a bit weak. I'd consider Enervating + Slow Burst + Prismatic Burst (assuming you want to forego the autokill with Vorpal).

We are using the MIC version, the plus 3 cost for Sandstorm would make this thing a bit expensive. I mainly went with the fatigue affect. Slap them with it twice and that's -6 to both Str and Dex. Prismatic burst looks nice, but I would be inside the AoE when it activated.... really don't wanna get sent to random plane.

Vorpal is also a bit more expensive than I'm willing to spend.

EDIT: Slow burst is nice for control, but with D-burst I am lowering stats that would be most threatening to me in melee.

[Slipperychicken]

Prismatic burst looks nice, but I would be inside the AoE when it activated.... really don't wanna get sent to random plane.


EDIT: Slow burst is nice for control, but with D-burst I am lowering stats that would be most threatening to me in melee.

Thing about Slow is that you're pretty much limiting your opponent to one attack per round (can't make a full attack with a standard or move action), plus pinning him down, which is devastating to foes which use multiple attacks or which rely on being mobile/skirmishing. Fatigue reduces the enemy's damage and attack rolls by about 3, which you really won't notice in most combats. And remember that, if you can hit your opponent with D-burst, the guy's already close enough that not running or charging won't really do much for you. And don't forget the laundry list of enemies which are immune to Fatigue anyway...


Prismatic Burst is a cone starting from a corner of your square like you were casting it, so you don't risk being caught in the area.

[Andezzar]

The problem with the burst effects is that they only happen on a critical hit - so not that often. Slow burst has the additional drawback that the DC is fixed and relatively low.

[Darrin]

The problem with the burst effects is that they only happen on a critical hit - so not that often. Slow burst has the additional drawback that the DC is fixed and relatively low.

Masterslaying automatically provides the crit. That's why I suggested Enervating: no save, and I'm a little leery that two fatigues from the same source would stack. Prismatic Burst is mostly just expensive bells & whistles, but it fits Zoser's "chaos" fluff very well. I suggested Slow Burst because it's very cheap and doesn't drive up the cost of the other enchantments.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't exactly have much to add, but Nooblet is the gosh darn cutest neologism I have heard in a while.
It sounds like a Dr. Seuss creation.

Once there was a Nooblet and the Nooblet was new,
He was so new he knew not what to do,
He went to his forum,
He went to his friends,
He went around corners,
Down dips,
And bends.

At last he came to a sage so wise,
A sage with a plan of clever devise,
Said the sage "Oh, Nooblet for you,"
"For you I can tell just what to do,"
"Take these classes, these feats, these class features,"
"And with them you'll slay all manner of creatures."
"This weapon enchant to a valorous sword,"
"These feats will all work in one accord"
"This class, no fear, it shall empower,"
" Make all before you bend and cower"
"Never fear little Nooblet, for I am a sage so wise,"
"All my plans are of clever devise"

And the Nooblet, though new, did his best to follow,
The advice, though some was hard to swallow,
He was mighty indeed, mightiest of all,
And from then on the Nooblet stood tall,
Though Nooblet still, no longer was he new
For now the Nooblet knew just what to do.

[LanSlyde]

Masterslaying automatically provides the crit. That's why I suggested Enervating: no save, and I'm a little leery that two fatigues from the same source would stack. Prismatic Burst is mostly just expensive bells & whistles, but it fits Zoser's "chaos" fluff very well. I suggested Slow Burst because it's very cheap and doesn't drive up the cost of the other enchantments.

I think I'll go with prismatic burst. Even the lowest effect is still decent.

[LanSlyde]

Thing about Slow is that you're pretty much limiting your opponent to one attack per round (can't make a full attack with a standard or move action), plus pinning him down, which is devastating to foes which use multiple attacks or which rely on being mobile/skirmishing. Fatigue reduces the enemy's damage and attack rolls by about 3, which you really won't notice in most combats. And remember that, if you can hit your opponent with D-burst, the guy's already close enough that not running or charging won't really do much for you. And don't forget the laundry list of enemies which are immune to Fatigue anyway...

I see your point with slow, but I think I'll leave the skirmishers up to the fighter and psion to shut down.

[LanSlyde]

[QUOTE=Ravens_cry;13189471]I don't exactly have much to add, but Nooblet is the gosh darn cutest neologism I have heard in a while.
It sounds like a Dr. Seuss creation. [QUOTE]

|^_^|

Your welcome. Also, +1 internets for the rhyme.