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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Emperor Tippy's Avatar

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malachei View Post
    No, he does not have a trillion or so other solars. That's your personal opinion and your houserule assumption.
    No, the Heavens have as many Solars and the Hells have Balors and Pit Fiends. The number in all cases is infinite. This are infinite planes. RAW there are an infinite number of Solars around.

    And if the Deity wants a Solar back then he can have him back at the cost of a single Standard Action by simply using Alter Reality to fake a Gate spell and call the Solar back to him. It's easier for him to get his Solar back if he needs him at that exact minute than it is for him to kill you.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    No, the Heavens have as many Solars and the Hells have Balors and Pit Fiends. The number in all cases is infinite. This are infinite planes. RAW there are an infinite number of Solars around.
    Where exactly do the RAW give the number of Solars? Where exactly do the RAW state that the number of Solars is equal to the number of Balors and Pit Fiends?

    There is only one Celestia. The rules say a plane is an infinite expanse, not that it has infinite Solars -- this is not the same. An infinite plane can be lifeless or the the home of just one creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy
    And if the Deity wants a Solar back then he can have him back at the cost of a single Standard Action by simply using Alter Reality to fake a Gate spell and call the Solar back to him. It's easier for him to get his Solar back if he needs him at that exact minute than it is for him to kill you.
    He is a lawful good deity, of course he cares about the solar. And solars are, by rules text, their closest attendants.
    Last edited by Malachei; 2012-04-17 at 07:49 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    And that assumes that you don't piss off a god that says "You know what? Die now." and just wills you dead using Life and Death. The only way to become immune to that is to pick up Singular Enemy.
    Or using one of the many spells, magic items, or class / racial abilities that give immunity to death effects. Life and Death replicates the Destruction spell, which is a death effect, iirc.

    Now, that isn't to say such a god couldn't strip you of your immunity or find another way to kill you, but it would take slightly more effort on their part.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Or using one of the many spells, magic items, or class / racial abilities that give immunity to death effects. Life and Death replicates the Destruction spell, which is a death effect, iirc.

    Now, that isn't to say such a god couldn't strip you of your immunity or find another way to kill you, but it would take slightly more effort on their part.
    Technically it's not a Death effect, it simply works like Destruction but no where does it say that it picks up it's spell type.

    Even if your DM doesn't agree, the deity can still just Wish you to a dead magic plane and then Life and Death you.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    {{scrubbed}}
    Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2012-04-22 at 09:50 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    You're probably right, Shneeky. Anyway, I have gotten about all I need from this thread.

    Emperor Tippy, I see that I was misreading exactly how the Weirdstone worked, so that's a good thing. I can just have the army accompanied by a construct with one built right into it. Do I need to preserve line of effect? And, do the players know that they are under its effects immediately?


    Oh, and about the Ice assassin assembly line, I figured you just make your first one and mindrape it into your thrall. After that you order it to spend all possible time making additional ones and mindraping them (indoctrinating them to follow you), too, and giving them this order. It represents relatively little effort on your part to establish your own infinitely expanding economy. Get a divine caster and you've got all of the food and water you need for when you decide you need an actual population. As long as there aren't any gods that are the patron of not doing this, you should be fine.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin_of_Amber View Post
    You're probably right, Shneeky. Anyway, I have gotten about all I need from this thread.

    Emperor Tippy, I see that I was misreading exactly how the Weirdstone worked, so that's a good thing. I can just have the army accompanied by a construct with one built right into it. Do I need to preserve line of effect? And, do the players know that they are under its effects immediately?
    Weirdstones need to be activated with a mental command when over a flat surface (I prefer using a Floating Disk or the like so that it follows you around all day), it would require a house rule to build one into a construct.

    As for Line of Effect, Weirdstones are weird. They pretty much ignore the natural environment but how exactly LoE is handled with them is something for DM adjudication.

    No, the players don't know when they come under it's effects. That's why I would have a flying baddy carry one about a mile or so up in the air along with a flat board to activate it on. The players aren't ever going to find the exact location of the Weirdstone.

    Oh, and about the Ice assassin assembly line, I figured you just make your first one and mindrape it into your thrall. After that you order it to spend all possible time making additional ones and mindraping them (indoctrinating them to follow you), too, and giving them this order. It represents relatively little effort on your part to establish your own infinitely expanding economy. Get a divine caster and you've got all of the food and water you need for when you decide you need an actual population. As long as there aren't any gods that are the patron of not doing this, you should be fine.
    You don't need Mind Rape. Ice Assassins are already absolutely loyal and obey and command that you give. It's *shudders* superior to Mind Rape.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Weirdstones need to be activated with a mental command when over a flat surface (I prefer using a Floating Disk or the like so that it follows you around all day), it would require a house rule to build one into a construct.

    As for Line of Effect, Weirdstones are weird. They pretty much ignore the natural environment but how exactly LoE is handled with them is something for DM adjudication.

    No, the players don't know when they come under it's effects. That's why I would have a flying baddy carry one about a mile or so up in the air along with a flat board to activate it on. The players aren't ever going to find the exact location of the Weirdstone.
    Okay, that could work. Maybe I'll do an array of watchtowers around the city so that there is an entire spread of them. That would also solve the problem of not letting them teleport out immediately, without having to resort to large amounts of AMF. I could even arange it so that there is a small area in the center of the city that is not covered, for the ruler to use.

    I just have to make sure they don't try to steal all of them on their way out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    You don't need Mind Rape. Ice Assassins are already absolutely loyal and obey and command that you give. It's *shudders* superior to Mind Rape.
    But doesn't an Ice Assassin of you try to kill you? Or can you override that with the absolute loyalty feature?

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    That is why you order them to never try to harm you are to act in what they perceive to be your best interest. And go and get a permanent telepathic bond with them before ordering the IA to always obey instructions delivered over the bond.
    People who think Tippy equals win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    That is why you order them to never try to harm you are to act in what they perceive to be your best interest. And go and get a permanent telepathic bond with them before ordering the IA to always obey instructions delivered over the bond.
    Very clever. I'm going to go on a limb and assume no one though of that when designing the spell.

  11. - Top - End - #161
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin_of_Amber View Post
    Very clever. I'm going to go on a limb and assume no one though of that when designing 95% of 3.5.
    Fixed that for you. We love the game, but boy can it be broken so easily.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Fixed that for you. We love the game, but boy can it be broken so easily.
    I'm at the point where I'm assuming (and I know it's delusional) that it was designed this way on purpose and the designers intended for both sides to be using all the nifty tricks and the like.

    Lot's of the broken stuff can be counterbalanced with other broken stuff.

    It's either that or the creators were blinding idiots seeing as I can't think of a single 3.5 book that doesn't have at least one incredibly broken thing or several moderately broken things in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malachei View Post
    No, he does not have a trillion or so other solars. That's your personal opinion and your houserule assumption.
    The material plane is infinite.
    That means infinite souls going up to the planes.
    That means infinite angel's which can be made.
    There are as many solars as the gods want.
    This is not a houserule.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    I'm at the point where I'm assuming (and I know it's delusional) that it was designed this way on purpose and the designers intended for both sides to be using all the nifty tricks and the like.

    Lot's of the broken stuff can be counterbalanced with other broken stuff.

    It's either that or the creators were blinding idiots seeing as I can't think of a single 3.5 book that doesn't have at least one incredibly broken thing or several moderately broken things in it.
    I doubt they are all idiots. Its more likely they simply don't have the time to think of everything, let alone playtest it. I don't know about WoTC, but I know that at Games Workshop most books have less than a two month development cycle from the moment they are assigned the project until the manuscript is delivered to the printers. That isn't a lot of time for careful thought or testing the implications of everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottzar View Post
    The material plane is infinite.
    That means infinite souls going up to the planes.
    That means infinite angel's which can be made.
    There are as many solars as the gods want.
    This is not a houserule.
    It's not a house rule, but it is a pretty big logical assumption. It is all more or less theoretical, as infinites don't exist in reality, but I see no reason why an infinite space cannot contain a finite number of souls, or even an infinite number of souls containing a finite number of potential solars.

    Infact, numerous inhabitants of the infinite outer planes are listed as "unique" or given set numbers, which by your logic is impossible.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2012-04-17 at 05:24 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I doubt they are all idiots. Its more likely they simply don't have the time to think of everything, let alone playtest it. I don't know about WoTC, but I know that at Games Workshop most books have less than a two month development cycle from the moment they are assigned the project until the manuscript is delivered to the printers. That isn't a lot of time for careful thought or testing the implications of everything.
    You don't need careful or thorough testing, grab someone from the TO boards or the like and have them read through the stuff once before it goes to print. That's all it would take to stop 95% of the broken stuff from ever seeing the light of day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
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    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    You don't need careful or thorough testing, grab someone from the TO boards or the like and have them read through the stuff once before it goes to print. That's all it would take to stop 95% of the broken stuff from ever seeing the light of day.
    Well, the TO boards didn't exist before 3.0/3.5 came out- the core books, at least. And after...well, using the community experts as a sounding board sounds like a good idea in theory, but look at Paizo - they asked people to playtest for brokenness, then disregarded or ignored all the feedback with regards to said brokenness. Hard to imagine WotC would have been any better.

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    I'm at the point where I'm assuming (and I know it's delusional) that it was designed this way on purpose and the designers intended for both sides to be using all the nifty tricks and the like.

    Lot's of the broken stuff can be counterbalanced with other broken stuff.

    It's either that or the creators were blinding idiots seeing as I can't think of a single 3.5 book that doesn't have at least one incredibly broken thing or several moderately broken things in it.
    I have tried that once and it did not turn out too well (and I don't think I have the ability to DM that). It started out with 1 combat/challenge per session, due to all of the interactions. It eventually got to the point where we were just worldbuilding with god-like power. Not a bad thing, but I prefer a gritter 3.5 game (and this can even be done at high levels, if the players are willing to help).

    Recently I have adopted the "technically rule." It basically states that for any given scenario, I ask "Does it really work that way?" If the argument in its favor is some form of, "technically, it does," then chances are it is not allowed (note, this is not always absolute, like in the case of Monk's non-proficiency with his fists [although we've all outgrown the need to play Monks anyway {except for the new girl that my friend brought to the game (but she's just there because he wants to date her[but we're going to encourage Swordsage])}]).

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malachei View Post
    Where exactly do the RAW give the number of Solars?
    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It's not a house rule, but it is a pretty big logical assumption. It is all more or less theoretical, as infinites don't exist in reality, but I see no reason why an infinite space cannot contain a finite number of souls, or even an infinite number of souls containing a finite number of potential solars.
    Solars are harder to prove (takes more sources), but Planetars (which mostly have the same effect) are a few simple connections in the DMG.

    1) DMG page 167: Heavenly Encounters Table: Planetar is on the list. Additionally, Beatific Encounters Table: Planetar is on the list. Any time you're on a plane that uses either of those two encounter tables, there is a positive density of Planetars on that plane that is noticeably above zero (as they can be encountered at random).
    2) There are a number of planes, defined as infinite in size, that use one or both of those encounter tables: Heroic Domains of Ysgard (page 158), The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus (page 163), and The Concordant Domains of the Outlands (page 166). All of these are strictly Core.
    3) When you have a positive density of something that comes in discrete units in a volume that is defined as infinite, you must, of necessity, have an infinite number of that something. Thus, there are an infinite number of Planetars.

    (A similar method can be used to prove that there are an Infinite number of Noble Dijinni and Efreeti - still staying in Core)

    If you branch out of Core, the Planar Handbook adds Solars to the encounter tables of The Seven Heavens of Celestia, the Twin Paradises of Bytopia, the Blessed Fields of Elesium, the Olympian Glades of Arborea, and the Wilderness of the Beastlands. Meanwhile, the Manual of the Planes (Directly referenced in the Planar Handbook!) defines the The Seven Heavens of Celestia as infinite in size, the Twin Paradises of Bytopia as infinite in size, The Blessed Fields of Elesium as infinite in size, and the Olympian Glades of Arborea as infinite in size. The same logic in core-only that says there are an infinite amount of Planetars also says that there are an infinite amount of Solars, once you've reached outside of Core (Oh yes, and the Manual of the Planes puts Solars on the Heavenly Encounters table, as well as the Beatific Encounters table, as well).
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2012-04-17 at 05:54 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Are we really using Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy logic to debate RAW?

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Well, the TO boards didn't exist before 3.0/3.5 came out- the core books, at least. And after...well, using the community experts as a sounding board sounds like a good idea in theory, but look at Paizo - they asked people to playtest for brokenness, then disregarded or ignored all the feedback with regards to said brokenness. Hard to imagine WotC would have been any better.
    You don't need play-testing for alot of it. Hirer 5 or so of them as staff and give them a simple job, everything that is written they get to read and they are to note anything broken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
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    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone who shall remain anonymous
    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    You don't need play-testing for alot of it. Hirer 5 or so of them as staff and give them a simple job, everything that is written they get to read and they are to note anything broken.
    That makes sense to gamers, but I don't think the corporate guys who run the show agree with the expense.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Are we really using Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy logic to debate RAW?
    If you're referencing my argument, just because something showed up in a particular source doesn't necessarily make it logically invalid (I've never actually read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, so I am definitely not taking the logic from there).

    Consider an arbitrary mixed drink. In this specific arbitrary mixed drink, the drink doesn't fully mix (by design), and there's droplets of rum scattered throughout a different liquid (taking up a grand total of, say, 20% of the volume of the drink). If you have an infinite volume of this mixed drink, then by definition, you have an infinite volume of rum as well. This works for any real, positive percentage that is distinguishable from zero.

    Please, try to attack the logic itself, rather than where you've seen the argument before.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    If you're referencing my argument, just because something showed up in a particular source doesn't necessarily make it logically invalid (I've never actually read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, so I am definitely not taking the logic from there).

    Consider an arbitrary mixed drink. In this specific arbitrary mixed drink, the drink doesn't fully mix (by design), and there's droplets of rum scattered throughout a different liquid (taking up a grand total of, say, 20% of the volume of the drink). If you have an infinite volume of this mixed drink, then by definition, you have an infinite volume of rum as well. This works for any real, positive percentage that is distinguishable from zero.

    Please, try to attack the logic itself, rather than where you've seen the argument before.
    I can't attack the logic, because there isn't any. Using abstract mathematics to describe a real world situation leads to absurdity, and the only way it can be handled is with jokes. I believe that was pretty much the premise of Alice in Wonderland.

    The quote I am referring to from the Hitchhiker's Guide is (to paraphrase): "The universe has an infinite area and a zero population. Because the universe is not made entirely of people, there are a finite number of people. A finite number divided between an infinite area equals zero. Therefore anyone you happen to meet in the universe is merely a product of your diseased mind."

    An infinite area is not a real thing. It can't be a real thing, at least not with any sort of physical laws which we know. Anything there would be smashed to pieces by infinite air pressure from above and pulled apart by infinite gravity from all directions. And that is just the first problem I came up with.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2012-04-17 at 06:23 PM.

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    An infinite area is not a real thing. It can't be a real thing, at least not with any sort of physical laws which we know. Anything there would be smashed to pieces by infinite air pressure from above and pulled apart by infinite gravity from all directions. And that is just the first problem I came up with.
    It's a good thing that D&D takes place entirely outside of our reality, and defies the real world's physical laws in many, many ways. Air pressure assumes that matter is composed of molecules constantly in motion - for all you know, matter in D&D follows a classical elemental sense, with the fundamental units of matter being the essences of Earth, Air, Water, and Fire, or something even stranger. Are there specific rules for gravity? The material plane has a phenomenon that appears to work similar to earth normal gravity, but travel to the Demonweb Pits or Limbo and try to apply normal gravitational relationships.

    In a nutshell, you shouldn't use real world physics to justify things in D&D, least of all when you're contradicting the crunch.
    There is the moral of all human tales;
    'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
    First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
    Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
    And History, with all her volumes vast,
    Hath but one page...

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Menteith View Post
    It's a good thing that D&D takes place entirely outside of our reality, and defies the real world's physical laws in many, many ways. Air pressure assumes that matter is composed of molecules constantly in motion - for all you know, matter in D&D follows a classical elemental sense, with the fundamental units of matter being the essences of Earth, Air, Water, and Fire, or something even stranger. Are there specific rules for gravity? The material plane has a phenomenon that appears to work similar to earth normal gravity, but travel to the Demonweb Pits or Limbo and try to apply normal gravitational relationships.

    In a nutshell, you shouldn't use real world physics to justify things in D&D, least of all when you're contradicting the crunch.
    That was actually my point.

    People are using real world higher math to justify RAW vs. RAI, and I was saying that D&D reality is sufficiently different from what real world "logic" would tell us about an infinite area that this method is nonsense.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2012-04-17 at 06:57 PM.

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I can't attack the logic, because there isn't any. Using abstract mathematics to describe a real world situation leads to absurdity, and the only way it can be handled is with jokes. I believe that was pretty much the premise of Alice in Wonderland.

    The quote I am referring to from the Hitchhiker's Guide is (to paraphrase): "The universe has an infinite area and a zero population. Because the universe is not made entirely of people, there are a finite number of people. A finite number divided between an infinite area equals zero. Therefore anyone you happen to meet in the universe is merely a product of your diseased mind."
    As you've paraphrased that, it is a fallacy, and is going in the opposite direction of what I went over.

    Your paraphrase is starting from a finite number of items in an infinite space - which means a density that is indistinguishable from 0.
    I'm starting with pointing out that we've got a definition that says the density is nonzero in this infinite space.

    Your paraphrase is saying that the extreme rarity means that what you see is impossible (which is not the case - if there are five of something, then there are five of something, and encountering one of them simply requires going to where it is - completely irrespective of the volume it might be spread over).
    I'm pointing out that the nonzero density in an infinite space means that there's an infinite number of the thing I'm looking for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    An infinite area is not a real thing. It can't be a real thing, at least not with any sort of physical laws which we know. Anything there would be smashed to pieces by infinite air pressure from above and pulled apart by infinite gravity from all directions. And that is just the first problem I came up with.
    The D&D planar cosmology includes such things as Subjective Directional Gravity and Erratic Time. D&D, very explicitly, includes things that are not real things and have severe issues if we try them within the confines of physics as we know them in the real world. That doesn't make it any less applicable to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That was actually my point.

    People are using real world higher math to justify RAW vs. RAI, and I was saying that D&D reality is sufficiently different from what real world "logic" would tell us about an infinite area that this method is nonsense.
    I'm using statistical analysis based on the available information.

    Let's turn the question around, though. Where do you get that RAW says there are NOT an infinite number of Solars in existence in the default D&D cosmology? Or where RAI says there are NOT an infinite number of Solars in existence in the default D&D cosmology? Source, please. I've given you mine for why I think RAW says there are.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2012-04-17 at 07:09 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    As you've paraphrased that, it is a fallacy, and is going in the opposite direction of what I went over.

    Your paraphrase is starting from a finite number of items in an infinite space - which means a density that is indistinguishable from 0.
    I'm starting with pointing out that we've got a definition that says the density is nonzero in this infinite space.

    Your paraphrase is saying that the extreme rarity means that what you see is impossible (which is not the case - if there are five of something, then there are five of something, and encountering one of them simply requires going to where it is - completely irrespective of the volume it might be spread over).
    I'm pointing out that the nonzero density in an infinite space means that there's an infinite number of the thing I'm looking for.

    The D&D planar cosmology includes such things as Subjective Directional Gravity and Erratic Time. D&D, very explicitly, includes things that are not real things and have severe issues if we try them within the confines of physics as we know them in the real world. That doesn't make it any less applicable to the game.
    You are going in the opposite direction, but using the same logic. you are saying if you do meet somebody in an infinite space, there must be an infinite number of them, because otherwise the chance of meeting them would be zero.

    This is not rational in the real world, and it isn't rational in a fantasy world. You are trying to apply abstract math to a setting which runs off of belief (in character) and game play and narrative mechanisms (out of character).

    Encounter tables are not, nor have they ever been, intended to be an accurate sampling of the population of a given area, let alone an infinite area.

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That was actually my point.

    People are using real world higher math to justify RAW vs. RAI, and I was saying that D&D reality is sufficiently different from what real world "logic" would tell us about an infinite area that this method is nonsense.
    Fair enough. Are there hard facts beyond what has already been posted regarding angelic populations? If there aren't, then I doubt that a consensus is going to be reached. I agree with you that the evidence hasn't been enough to convince me that there are infinite Solar; nor has enough evidence been presented to contradict that view.

    Either way, is it really pertinent to the discussion? Whether or not there are an sufficiently large number of Solar or infinite Solar isn't going to make or break the game, or any of the tactics suggested in this thread.
    There is the moral of all human tales;
    'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
    First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
    Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
    And History, with all her volumes vast,
    Hath but one page...

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    You are going in the opposite direction, but using the same logic. you are saying if you do meet somebody in an infinite space, there must be an infinite number of them, because otherwise the chance of meeting them would be zero.
    No, I'm not.

    I'm saying that we've got a definition that says there's a particular, measurable probability for an arbitrary group travelling to encounter a particular type of creature in that area. This is what random encounter tables are.

    I'm then pointing out that encountering such things at random means that there's a measurably positive density of such things.

    I'm then multiplying by the defined area to come up with a result.

    This is quite straightforward. The only oddity is that we've got infinities involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    This is not rational in the real world,
    Actually, it is. Similar methods are used to estimate the population of a given creature. You go to a typical area, and cordon off a section, which we'll hereafter refer to as a unit area. We then count how many of the creatures in question are in that area, and multiply by how many of our unit areas make up the total area in question to arrive at approximations of the true number of creatures.

    This is how surveys work (ask a finite number of people their opinion on something; get the distribution of results from the people asked; multiply that by the number of people whos opinions on the subject matter for purposes of the survey).

    This is how the Endangered Species Act works in practice.

    This method actually has quite a lot of real-world application. The only oddity is that we've got an infinite area to multiply by.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Encounter tables are not, nor have they ever been, intended to be an accurate sampling of the population of a given area, let alone an infinite area.
    That may not be strictly what they're intended for, sure. They're for determining what a party, traveling through an arbitrary section of that particular plane, is likely to encounter.

    So while that may not be what they're specifically for, it is indeed one of the things that they are.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: How do you capture a wizard?

    Yes, statistical analysis works in the real world, if done thoroughly enough to even out any statistical errors. What I am saying is that an "infinite area" is an absurdity in the real world, and trying to do a statistical analysis for an infinite area will produce likewise absurd results.

    There are two problems with using an encounter table to determine population density. First, it just doesn't work, some creatures show up far too often, some creatures not at all. Using, for example, the forest encounter table in the DMG we find that 5% of all creatures in the forest are 5th level lizard folk with 2 centaur companions, and that wood elves and green dragons do not exist.

    Further, you are assuming that an encounter table is uniform across the entire plane, rather than just a sampling from an area PCs are likely to be in.

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