Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solution

[dehro]

bungee jumping

[fergo]

Tapas is always excellent. I've never actually taken someone on a tapas date, I suppose I shall have to fix that. And yeah, Necropolis is pretty. Sounds pretty good

Just don't pronounce it like this.

Although, speaking of which, what the hell is tapas, anyways?

[dehro]

Just don't pronounce it like this.

Although, speaking of which, what the hell is tapas, anyways?

it's spanish..basically small portions of a variety of stuff, both hot and cold.. usually pretty savoury..
the idea there being that you grab a selection of tapas and that way sample a bit of everything...they're usually meant as apetizers but come in all sorts of flavours and way of cooking, including fried..so..you might just as well order a few tapas more and be done with eating.


of course watching the clip before answering would have made me look less of a knowitall

[Dvil]

Just don't pronounce it like this.

Although, speaking of which, what the hell is tapas, anyways?

Another classic Moss line.

In sadder news, I just checked the 10-day forecast. Lady friend isn't free until after Monday, and from Tuesday the weather looks consistently rainy. Looks like heading up Necropolis to eat dessert is less likely now...

[AtlanteanTroll]

Awww geez. My mind is jumping all over the place.

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So, there was this girl (who I was decent friends with) who I had fallen for to a decent extent. I've mentioned her here before. Back in February-ish I ended up getting a group-date lined up, but she canceled because it ended up clashing with other plans of hers. Or something, she did mention we could try to reschedule. I assumed she was just making excuses because she wanted to let me down nicely, and a mutual friend sort of ended up confirming this.

A bit later while I was talking to her I asked why she even said yes to the date in the first place. She said something along the lines of she thought it was just a movie and then said she wasn't really looking for a boyfriend or anything. I said I understood and that if she ever changed her mind I'd be around. She said something to the effect that I was sweet.

Some weeks after that she ended up getting a boyfriend, who also happened to be a decent friend. My feelings slowly faded/were stomped out by myself as I figured it'd be wrong of me to be after my friend's friend, (especially after Prom (her, her BF, myself and some 20 others were all in the same group)) or so I had thought, and then a week ago I realized they hadn't really. Today she broke up with her BF because they decided to be "just friends" or something. I'm not sure. That's what her BF said.

And now I don't know what to do. My feelings for her aren't dead, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be seen as just a friend from now on. And even if that is the case, I still want to try and be a better friend. Gah. I hate being an adolescent sometimes.

[Heliomance]

Spoilered for good news. I know some of you crusty old types don't like it!

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So... I think I might possibly be falling in love. I've never been in love before, so it's hard to tell, but I think my feelings are headed that way. I told G today, and she said she thinks she's falling in love with me as well

[Astrella]

Spoilered for good news. I know some of you crusty old types don't like it!

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So... I think I might possibly be falling in love. I've never been in love before, so it's hard to tell, but I think my feelings are headed that way. I told G today, and she said she thinks she's falling in love with me as well

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Aaawwwwww.

[Reluctance]

AT: I'm going to tell you that there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Not as some empty phrase to cheer you up, but because it's a lot healthier to focus your time and energies on someone who hasn't already rejected you. Don't be rude to her, but do take the hint and move on gracefully.

Helio: As an official crusty old coot in the playground (and occasional dirty old man, but that goes horribly with the nomenclature), I'll still jump in and say that's really cute.

[seventyfour]

I'm looking for some good, old fashioned harsh impartial internet advice (warning this might be a bit of a ramble...)

I'm not a people person and never have been really. I know this and as I actually do like people (suprisingly) I'm trying to improve myself (by being more sociable and things). I'm doing moderately well I think. I go to college and i have quite a large circle of friends (compared to the two i had in highschool) I'm no longer in contact with one of my highschool friends, but the other is part of the reason why I decided to ask a second opinion.

My friend (lets call him Mr I) is really friendly, probably the nicest person i know. But that's half the problem. He's too awesome. :/ I hang oout with him constantly, and i just can't compete. People always compare us and i'm lacking in basicly ever single way. I'm slightly smarter than him but he's just beter at talking to people than me. People actually like him, they tolerate my prescence but they don't actually like me.

In my completely biased opinion he isthe main reason why i've never really managed to get a relationship going. I've been on dates before, sometimes with girls i really liked (and sometimes still do like) they go quite well (except for the occasional awkward silences due to the conversation doeing... but i'm working on that...) sometimes i even have a second date. But sooner or later they meet Mr I and he's just so much better than me. Why would anyone even think of dating me when there' a chance they could get Mr I instead. This has happened at least twice and it really irks me... I try copying him but it just seems unnatural trying to be someone else...

Mr I is also i good example of another problem i have, I have no real friends. Mr I and I have been friends for aboout 7 years, but he still doen't trust me. We don't and won't talk about anything in his life.I have many friends but none who i can talk to about say anyhthing intimate. I don't have a friend who cares enough or i trust ehough to krrw any secrets. I've been bottlings my feelings years, and sometimes i want someone to talk twriting

sorry if this didn't make much sense... i'm actually quite tired and tle drunk with no spellcheck available litte. thankyou anyway

[dehro]

he's that kind of friend who you're almost dependent on for having a social life at all, right? the kind of guy who genuinely cares about you but has a lot else going in his life too so he depends on you a lot less than you depend on him, which makes you feel a bit inadequate to begin with? the kind of guy who incidentally, deep down, knows that you make him look better than he would look on his own even though he doesn't do it on purpose?

I have such a friend..in fact he's my best friend since high school..and I know I am one of his 2 best friends... he's also getting married in a couple of months. I've had a lot more success with the ladies during the years that I lived far away from him than I had when we used to hang out together all the time and he was hogging them by spades. (and I have the selfish and a bit arrogant notion that I in fact look better than him and have a better character..but he certainly has a quicker tongue and is a bit of a charmer..so it should balance out a bit...yet it never did as long as we hung together).

short and simple suggestions.. try to keep your dates outside the circle of friends you usually hang out with..including mr I (apt name, btw, if it wasn't intentional)... at least for a while.

[AtlanteanTroll]

AT: I'm going to tell you that there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Not as some empty phrase to cheer you up, but because it's a lot healthier to focus your time and energies on someone who hasn't already rejected you. Don't be rude to her, but do take the hint and move on gracefully.

Yeah, that's sort of what I figured, but that's just really not how my mind works. Which probably isn't the best, but that's how it works with most things I like, people, games, what have you. We hung about a bit tonight ... And it was ... I dunno. *sigh*

[Pyromancer999]

I'm looking for some good, old fashioned harsh impartial internet advice (warning this might be a bit of a ramble...)

I'm not a people person and never have been really. I know this and as I actually do like people (suprisingly) I'm trying to improve myself (by being more sociable and things). I'm doing moderately well I think. I go to college and i have quite a large circle of friends (compared to the two i had in highschool) I'm no longer in contact with one of my highschool friends, but the other is part of the reason why I decided to ask a second opinion.

My friend (lets call him Mr I) is really friendly, probably the nicest person i know. But that's half the problem. He's too awesome. :/ I hang oout with him constantly, and i just can't compete. People always compare us and i'm lacking in basicly ever single way. I'm slightly smarter than him but he's just beter at talking to people than me. People actually like him, they tolerate my prescence but they don't actually like me.

In my completely biased opinion he isthe main reason why i've never really managed to get a relationship going. I've been on dates before, sometimes with girls i really liked (and sometimes still do like) they go quite well (except for the occasional awkward silences due to the conversation doeing... but i'm working on that...) sometimes i even have a second date. But sooner or later they meet Mr I and he's just so much better than me. Why would anyone even think of dating me when there' a chance they could get Mr I instead. This has happened at least twice and it really irks me... I try copying him but it just seems unnatural trying to be someone else...

Mr I is also i good example of another problem i have, I have no real friends. Mr I and I have been friends for aboout 7 years, but he still doen't trust me. We don't and won't talk about anything in his life.I have many friends but none who i can talk to about say anyhthing intimate. I don't have a friend who cares enough or i trust ehough to krrw any secrets. I've been bottlings my feelings years, and sometimes i want someone to talk twriting

sorry if this didn't make much sense... i'm actually quite tired and tle drunk with no spellcheck available litte. thankyou anyway

You may want to check out this.

[Serpentine]

Wow. That's... uncanny o.O

[wadledo]

So, blah blah blah girl at work, blah blah blah very cute girl at work, blah blah blah so much flirting, blah blah blah I AM A COWARD, blah blah blah get my act together, blah blah blah older women are trouble, blah blah blah.

Nice talk playground, thanks for that.

[Velaryon]

Hi again all. I have a follow-up to my previous issue that I posted about a few weeks ago. But watch out, this is going to be a looooooooooooooong post.

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When last I posted, I was worried about whether I had already been relegated to just a friend in the wake of K's ex re-entering and then leaving her life again. While it hasn't been easy for me, I decided that the best thing I could do was keep my worries to myself as much as possible and just find opportunities to spend some time with her here and there, make them good times and keep my eyes open as to what's going on with her.

In the past few weeks, K has been dealing with a lot of non-relationship things in her life. She's saving up to move into an apartment with a friend, and had to decide between two friends in different areas. She ended up choosing the better friend of the two, who was apartment-hunting in the less desirable location, for a variety of reasons. It was a frustrating process because she was really looking forward to living downtown but that just wasn't going to work out. Anyway, since then she's also had some big bills come in and money's a little tight right now. On top of that she gets stressed sometimes because she hangs out with friends a whole lot and because she lives so far out in the boondocks that usually means lots of time spent traveling back and forth.

Anyway, a couple weeks ago she and I were talking on the phone on her way home from work when she mentioned she was starving for whatever reason. I offered to meet her out by where she lives (a good hour or so from me) and pick up dinner. I wasn't expecting her to go for it but to my surprise she did. Of course she got there first, so she called me en route to ask if I would mind if she ordered food before I got there. I was fine with that, and she ended up being done eating by the time I got there.

I came out to meet her with the understanding that we would be meeting for dinner and then going our separate ways. It was the day Diablo 3 came out and I knew she was eager to play it. Sadly my computer is too old to run the game smoothly so I won't be getting it. To my surprise, she invited me over for awhile to watch Claymore, an anime we'd been talking about seeing together. I met her folks and her dogs, and although she only introduced me as "a friend" I think I made a good impression. We sat in separate seats and watched for a couple hours before I went home. Got no indication whatsoever from K whether she was looking at me as just friends or something more.

That Friday (9 days ago I guess that would be) she texted me from work asking if I wanted to meet her that evening and watch some more Claymore. Of course I did, but where did she want to meet? My family was away for the weekend so she decided to come by my place after work.

When she got to my place we talked for a bit, went out to get food, then came back to watch. In the three hours or so she was at my house we watched only one episode, because she turned out to be much more interested in me than in the show. She was flirty, which she hadn't been in several weeks at this point. We didn't quite kiss or anything but she teased it more than a couple times. In retrospect I think she wanted me to make a move but I was too afraid of overstepping to do anything so it didn't go anywhere. She left after a few hours to go home, with the suggestion that we might meet up again that weekend.

Saturday she was apartment-hunting, and Sunday she agreed to meet up with me only to cancel a little while later. She suggested we might meet up Monday but ended up canceling then too. Now, K strikes me as a very honest person so when she tells me that something came up I believe her, but I couldn't help being confused and wondering if something more was going on here. Even moreso because she didn't want to meet Tuesday or Thursday (I wasn't free Wednesday). She suggested Friday, which eventually we were able to do.

Friday she got out of work early and hung out with a girlfriend of hers, with the understanding that she would call me a little later in the day to come meet her. Well when I drove out to meet her, her friend was still there which I was surprised at. The three of us hung out for a bit and then went bowling until about 9:30 that night. As we're getting ready to leave, she signals to me not to leave yet, so I loitered a bit until her friend left and then came back.

She wasn't ready to call it a night yet so we got some food, and she drove us to a secluded spot to eat, then talk, and more. Suffice to say that I now know she's still interested in me. We went our separate ways eventually, knowing that we'd see each other again the next day for D&D.

At this point I need to pause the story and explain some context that I left out of my previous posts. I hinted at this in my very first post but it wasn't important then and I knew how to deal with it, but now it needs explaining.

I met K through a very good friend of mine (let's call him A) who has been friends with her for several years. For most of that time A has also been interested in a relationship with her, but never did anything about it. He finally worked up to asking her to accompany him to another friend's wedding, which turned out to be the night she first came on to me.

Long story short, she and I worked things out with A, although it took me longer than it should have, and he now understands that K sees him as only a friend while I might become something more. It's a testament to his quality as a friend that he says he bears me no grudge and gave me his blessing in pursuing a relationship with her.

Now then, A is also the DM of the D&D game she and I are in together, which we played yesterday. K is a bit of a touchy-feely person, meaning she hugs people, leans her head on their shoulders, touches them on the arm or leg while talking to them, and things like that. She really doesn't mean anything by it as far as I can see, it's just how she is. I don't think she realizes the effect it might have on guy friends sometimes (of which she has a lot, being a nerd girl).

Unfortunately, despite how things went with her on Friday she's still apparently not quite ready to commit to a relationship with me. When you consider that it's only been three weeks since her ex, whom she had once thought was her one true love and the man she would marry, dumped her in the rudest, most obnoxious way possible, it's really no surprise that she's afraid to commit again and risk getting hurt. I don't take that personally, I'm just trying to work through it as best I can.

However, one thing that's bothering me is that all that touching, hugging, stuff I mentioned, she does not do with me in a group setting. While she's not afraid to show affection for me when we're alone, in front of her friends or mine she almost seems to avoid any physical contact with me, even things she unconsciously does with pretty much any other person in the room. I'm sure that if/when she and I enter a proper relationship this will change (at least I really hope so), but in the meantime it bothers me. I haven't brought it up to her though as I don't think it's a good idea.

Furthermore, she and A have plans today. They're going to Chinatown together, which they didn't invite me or anyone else along to. I'm a little hurt but I trust them both, and I know they've been friends for years so I've no right to insist on being included. It hurts a little that I wasn't even asked if I might like to come with though.

I asked whether she was driving all the way home after the D&D game only to come back the next morning. That's an hour each way of totally unnecessary driving, so I thought I'd extend an invitation to stay at my place and save herself all that driving, but it turns out she wasn't going home that night. It wasn't stated explicitly but it seemed pretty clear she was going to crash at A's house.

I know K doesn't think anything of this. She describes herself as "a gay man in a woman's body" and thinks of herself as one of the guys, so staying at a guy friend's place is no different than staying at a girlfriend's place to her. And I know she's not interested in him as anything more than a friend anyway. But combined with the lack of attention I got from her during the game (not even a goodnight hug), it has me feeling a little jealous even though I know I have nothing to be jealous of.

There's one thing that bugs me even more though. Another friend of A's and mine invited A and me on a camping trip with some other friends. The invitation was extended a couple months ago, when A was still pursuing K and before he knew that I was interested in her. I declined to go, first of all because I don't like camping but second and more importantly because I wanted to try and make plans with K for that weekend, which is now a couple weekends out.

I found out yesterday that A invited her on that trip. He extended the invitation back before he knew about her and me, so I don't begrudge him that. However, he brought it up again yesterday. She didn't answer (at least I don't think she did), but I feel it's a little bit inappropriate for him to be asking K, whom he now knows I am pursuing a relationship with, to go on this camping trip on which I'm not going. I feel like that's crossing a line, and I ought to talk to him about it.

I'm not sure what if any advice anyone can offer on this situation. I guess this is more just venting than anything else, although I of course welcome any advice any of you might have for me.

I know I need to control my petty jealousy, especially when there's really no cause for it, but I am a bit bothered by her showing a lack of affection for me in a group setting. I'm sure that will change if/when she and I commit to a relationship, but in the meantime it's very frustrating. It's like she's a completely different person in front of other people almost. I also feel like A is testing the boundaries with her and it's bothering me a bit that he apparently thinks nothing of having her spend the night at his place despite knowing how I feel about her.

[noparlpf]

Hi again all. I have a follow-up to my previous issue that I posted about a few weeks ago. But watch out, this is going to be a looooooooooooooong post.

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When last I posted, I was worried about whether I had already been relegated to just a friend in the wake of K's ex re-entering and then leaving her life again. While it hasn't been easy for me, I decided that the best thing I could do was keep my worries to myself as much as possible and just find opportunities to spend some time with her here and there, make them good times and keep my eyes open as to what's going on with her.

In the past few weeks, K has been dealing with a lot of non-relationship things in her life. She's saving up to move into an apartment with a friend, and had to decide between two friends in different areas. She ended up choosing the better friend of the two, who was apartment-hunting in the less desirable location, for a variety of reasons. It was a frustrating process because she was really looking forward to living downtown but that just wasn't going to work out. Anyway, since then she's also had some big bills come in and money's a little tight right now. On top of that she gets stressed sometimes because she hangs out with friends a whole lot and because she lives so far out in the boondocks that usually means lots of time spent traveling back and forth.

Anyway, a couple weeks ago she and I were talking on the phone on her way home from work when she mentioned she was starving for whatever reason. I offered to meet her out by where she lives (a good hour or so from me) and pick up dinner. I wasn't expecting her to go for it but to my surprise she did. Of course she got there first, so she called me en route to ask if I would mind if she ordered food before I got there. I was fine with that, and she ended up being done eating by the time I got there.

I came out to meet her with the understanding that we would be meeting for dinner and then going our separate ways. It was the day Diablo 3 came out and I knew she was eager to play it. Sadly my computer is too old to run the game smoothly so I won't be getting it. To my surprise, she invited me over for awhile to watch Claymore, an anime we'd been talking about seeing together. I met her folks and her dogs, and although she only introduced me as "a friend" I think I made a good impression. We sat in separate seats and watched for a couple hours before I went home. Got no indication whatsoever from K whether she was looking at me as just friends or something more.

That Friday (9 days ago I guess that would be) she texted me from work asking if I wanted to meet her that evening and watch some more Claymore. Of course I did, but where did she want to meet? My family was away for the weekend so she decided to come by my place after work.

When she got to my place we talked for a bit, went out to get food, then came back to watch. In the three hours or so she was at my house we watched only one episode, because she turned out to be much more interested in me than in the show. She was flirty, which she hadn't been in several weeks at this point. We didn't quite kiss or anything but she teased it more than a couple times. In retrospect I think she wanted me to make a move but I was too afraid of overstepping to do anything so it didn't go anywhere. She left after a few hours to go home, with the suggestion that we might meet up again that weekend.

Saturday she was apartment-hunting, and Sunday she agreed to meet up with me only to cancel a little while later. She suggested we might meet up Monday but ended up canceling then too. Now, K strikes me as a very honest person so when she tells me that something came up I believe her, but I couldn't help being confused and wondering if something more was going on here. Even moreso because she didn't want to meet Tuesday or Thursday (I wasn't free Wednesday). She suggested Friday, which eventually we were able to do.

Friday she got out of work early and hung out with a girlfriend of hers, with the understanding that she would call me a little later in the day to come meet her. Well when I drove out to meet her, her friend was still there which I was surprised at. The three of us hung out for a bit and then went bowling until about 9:30 that night. As we're getting ready to leave, she signals to me not to leave yet, so I loitered a bit until her friend left and then came back.

She wasn't ready to call it a night yet so we got some food, and she drove us to a secluded spot to eat, then talk, and more. Suffice to say that I now know she's still interested in me. We went our separate ways eventually, knowing that we'd see each other again the next day for D&D.

At this point I need to pause the story and explain some context that I left out of my previous posts. I hinted at this in my very first post but it wasn't important then and I knew how to deal with it, but now it needs explaining.

I met K through a very good friend of mine (let's call him A) who has been friends with her for several years. For most of that time A has also been interested in a relationship with her, but never did anything about it. He finally worked up to asking her to accompany him to another friend's wedding, which turned out to be the night she first came on to me.

Long story short, she and I worked things out with A, although it took me longer than it should have, and he now understands that K sees him as only a friend while I might become something more. It's a testament to his quality as a friend that he says he bears me no grudge and gave me his blessing in pursuing a relationship with her.

Now then, A is also the DM of the D&D game she and I are in together, which we played yesterday. K is a bit of a touchy-feely person, meaning she hugs people, leans her head on their shoulders, touches them on the arm or leg while talking to them, and things like that. She really doesn't mean anything by it as far as I can see, it's just how she is. I don't think she realizes the effect it might have on guy friends sometimes (of which she has a lot, being a nerd girl).

Unfortunately, despite how things went with her on Friday she's still apparently not quite ready to commit to a relationship with me. When you consider that it's only been three weeks since her ex, whom she had once thought was her one true love and the man she would marry, dumped her in the rudest, most obnoxious way possible, it's really no surprise that she's afraid to commit again and risk getting hurt. I don't take that personally, I'm just trying to work through it as best I can.

However, one thing that's bothering me is that all that touching, hugging, stuff I mentioned, she does not do with me in a group setting. While she's not afraid to show affection for me when we're alone, in front of her friends or mine she almost seems to avoid any physical contact with me, even things she unconsciously does with pretty much any other person in the room. I'm sure that if/when she and I enter a proper relationship this will change (at least I really hope so), but in the meantime it bothers me. I haven't brought it up to her though as I don't think it's a good idea.

Furthermore, she and A have plans today. They're going to Chinatown together, which they didn't invite me or anyone else along to. I'm a little hurt but I trust them both, and I know they've been friends for years so I've no right to insist on being included. It hurts a little that I wasn't even asked if I might like to come with though.

I asked whether she was driving all the way home after the D&D game only to come back the next morning. That's an hour each way of totally unnecessary driving, so I thought I'd extend an invitation to stay at my place and save herself all that driving, but it turns out she wasn't going home that night. It wasn't stated explicitly but it seemed pretty clear she was going to crash at A's house.

I know K doesn't think anything of this. She describes herself as "a gay man in a woman's body" and thinks of herself as one of the guys, so staying at a guy friend's place is no different than staying at a girlfriend's place to her. And I know she's not interested in him as anything more than a friend anyway. But combined with the lack of attention I got from her during the game (not even a goodnight hug), it has me feeling a little jealous even though I know I have nothing to be jealous of.

There's one thing that bugs me even more though. Another friend of A's and mine invited A and me on a camping trip with some other friends. The invitation was extended a couple months ago, when A was still pursuing K and before he knew that I was interested in her. I declined to go, first of all because I don't like camping but second and more importantly because I wanted to try and make plans with K for that weekend, which is now a couple weekends out.

I found out yesterday that A invited her on that trip. He extended the invitation back before he knew about her and me, so I don't begrudge him that. However, he brought it up again yesterday. She didn't answer (at least I don't think she did), but I feel it's a little bit inappropriate for him to be asking K, whom he now knows I am pursuing a relationship with, to go on this camping trip on which I'm not going. I feel like that's crossing a line, and I ought to talk to him about it.

I'm not sure what if any advice anyone can offer on this situation. I guess this is more just venting than anything else, although I of course welcome any advice any of you might have for me.

I know I need to control my petty jealousy, especially when there's really no cause for it, but I am a bit bothered by her showing a lack of affection for me in a group setting. I'm sure that will change if/when she and I commit to a relationship, but in the meantime it's very frustrating. It's like she's a completely different person in front of other people almost. I also feel like A is testing the boundaries with her and it's bothering me a bit that he apparently thinks nothing of having her spend the night at his place despite knowing how I feel about her.

On her not touching you in a group setting: You say she touches people unconsciously, so if she's clearly avoiding touching you, she's probably consciously paying attention to you in some fashion. Whether that's in a good or bad way, I'm not sure. As for A, I think you should talk to him again about it if you think he's overstepping lines, although from over here it seems like he might just be being friendly and not be thinking of it from your perspective. My biggest piece of advice: Be careful about jealousy. Othello and whatnot. (Also personal experience.)

[Velaryon]

On her not touching you in a group setting: You say she touches people unconsciously, so if she's clearly avoiding touching you, she's probably consciously paying attention to you in some fashion. Whether that's in a good or bad way, I'm not sure. As for A, I think you should talk to him again about it if you think he's overstepping lines, although from over here it seems like he might just be being friendly and not be thinking of it from your perspective. My biggest piece of advice: Be careful about jealousy. Othello and whatnot. (Also personal experience.)

Unfortunately I've never read or seen Othello so the reference doesn't mean anything to me. Nonetheless, your words of caution about jealousy are good advice. The fact is that I know both of them to be honorable, honest people who keep their word, so I have no reason not to trust them. I do trust them. But for whatever reason, I'm feeling some jealousy anyway.

After talking this over with a close friend of mine who is mostly removed from the situation, I think my problem stems from insecurity about myself and (possibly unfounded) worries about where my relationship with K, whatever it is, stands right now. K's avoidance of physical contact with me in front of other people, whether deliberate or not, is getting to me. Beyond that, I'm starting to worry whether her attraction to me goes beyond the physical (funny, isn't it stereotypically the other way around?)

[dehro]

K's avoidance of physical contact with me in front of other people, whether deliberate or not, is getting to me. Beyond that, I'm starting to worry whether her attraction to me goes beyond the physical (funny, isn't it stereotypically the other way around?)

or maybe she's just as uncertain about it all as you are, and doesn't want to mess it up... which then leads to a degree of awkwarness towards physical contact with yourself.

[noparlpf]

Unfortunately I've never read or seen Othello so the reference doesn't mean anything to me. Nonetheless, your words of caution about jealousy are good advice. The fact is that I know both of them to be honorable, honest people who keep their word, so I have no reason not to trust them. I do trust them. But for whatever reason, I'm feeling some jealousy anyway.

After talking this over with a close friend of mine who is mostly removed from the situation, I think my problem stems from insecurity about myself and (possibly unfounded) worries about where my relationship with K, whatever it is, stands right now. K's avoidance of physical contact with me in front of other people, whether deliberate or not, is getting to me. Beyond that, I'm starting to worry whether her attraction to me goes beyond the physical (funny, isn't it stereotypically the other way around?)

Othello's fatal flaw was jealousy, that's all. It's pretty natural (I think) to feel irrationally jealous here, just watch out for it and stay aware it's irrational.

[Velaryon]

or maybe she's just as uncertain about it all as you are, and doesn't want to mess it up... which then leads to a degree of awkwarness towards physical contact with yourself.

I think there probably is some of that. I'd like to talk with her about it and see if there's anything more to it than that. I don't think she realizes that it's bugging me and I'm struggling with if and how I should bring it up.

Othello's fatal flaw was jealousy, that's all. It's pretty natural (I think) to feel irrationally jealous here, just watch out for it and stay aware it's irrational.

Thanks, I'm keeping that in mind as best I can.

[noparlpf]

I think there probably is some of that. I'd like to talk with her about it and see if there's anything more to it than that. I don't think she realizes that it's bugging me and I'm struggling with if and how I should bring it up.

I'd say just have her over again, and be blunt about it. Tell her you're (still) interested in her, and would like to know how she feels about trying a relationship. She might be waiting for you to make a move and show that you're willing to commit.

[dehro]

that..or see how she reacts when it's you initiating physical contact instead of sitting ther waiting for her to hug/lean/embrace.
by which I don't mean jump her in a dark doorway.. but simply a hand around her shoulders/waist as you walk together or sit next to one another... I'm guessing she won't object.

[Sholos]

How does one go about initiating physical contact? Because I've got to be one of the most timid people around when it comes to starting something. I just can't bring myself to invade another person's space. So I guess my question is more how do you know if someone wants you to start something but won't start it themselves.

[Form]

How does one go about initiating physical contact? Because I've got to be one of the most timid people around when it comes to starting something. I just can't bring myself to invade another person's space. So I guess my question is more how do you know if someone wants you to start something but won't start it themselves.

It's a bit hard at first, but you'll easily get away with a brief, light tap on someone's shoulder or briefly touching someone's arm. Hugging someone goodbye if you've spoken with them a couple of times is also fine. Just spread your arms as invitation to a hug will do that.

But if you mean more intimate stuff like putting your arm around a girl or moving in for a kiss, then I don't know. As an anecdote:

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I asked whether it was alright to put my arm around a girl once beforehand. This did not go well. Maybe it was just that one time, but I suspect asking for permission like that is a bad move in general. -.-

[Rawhide]

One method is to follow an 80/20 rule. You initiate 80% of the movement, and let them finish the other 20%. This works on a few levels, first, it doesn't force people into contact if they don't want it, and gives you a chance to back out if they seem hesitant, as well as making them want it more if they do want it, you're making the move, but they have to finish it off.

[noparlpf]

One method is to follow an 80/20 rule. You initiate 80% of the movement, and let them finish the other 20%. This works on a few levels, first, it doesn't force people into contact if they don't want it, and gives you a chance to back out if they seem hesitant, as well as making them want it more if they do want it, you're making the move, but they have to finish it off.

So like, you put your arm on the back of the couch, if she leans on you, it's okay to put your arm on her shoulders?

[Rawhide]

So like, you put your arm on the back of the couch, if she leans on you, it's okay to put your arm on her shoulders?

Possibly. But I'm thinking more obvious things. Hold out a hand most of the way and wait for her to grasp it, lean in for a kiss and stop just short, etc.

What you do depends entirely on the person, relationship and moment. But those are two possibilities.

[noparlpf]

Possibly. But I'm thinking more obvious things. Hold out a hand most of the way and wait for her to grasp it, lean in for a kiss and stop just short, etc.

What you do depends entirely on the person, relationship and moment. But those are two possibilities.

I was starting small, but okay. Kissing works too.

[Rawhide]

I was starting small, but okay. Kissing works too.

Well, the hand thing was for starting small, the kiss was for if the moment was right. Though, there are ways to play with that if you're most of the way in and unsure if you should continue, such as then taking her hand in yours, bringing it up and kissing the back of her hand instead. Best followed by looking into her eyes, her hand still in yours, with a smile.

[Starwulf]

Well, the hand thing was for starting small, the kiss was for if the moment was right. Though, there are ways to play with that if you're most of the way in and unsure if you should continue, such as then taking her hand in yours, bringing it up and kissing the back of her hand instead. Best followed by looking into her eyes, her hand still in yours, with a smile.

wow, you are quite the romantic Rawhide :)