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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    I'm curious about the story there, but also if this also applies to whether you feel the urge to get to know people that are attractive to you.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    I'm not sure how much that kind of stuff applies to humans. Or in what context.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    I'm not sure how much that kind of stuff applies to humans. Or in what context.
    Sociologists and Psychologists really need to go ahead and provide some readily digested informative resources for us laypeople.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I'm curious about the story there, but also if this also applies to whether you feel the urge to get to know people that are attractive to you.
    I'll tell the story later (It's one of those that you need a video camera to tell properly ), but as to the second part... I don't. I can say that people (er... females) are attractive but I don't find myself attracted until I actually get to know them.
    Last edited by Herpestidae; 2012-08-12 at 02:05 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Sociologists and Psychologists really need to go ahead and provide some readily digested informative resources for us laypeople.
    Can't tell if sarcasm or not. If it is, I don't get it.
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  6. - Top - End - #756
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    Can't tell if sarcasm or not. If it is, I don't get it.
    I'm pretty serious. A bit more levity in me than usual about such things due to deciding to keep it brief and hoping that it might elicit someone to provide a link if they knew such resources existed.

    People who actually know their kit putting out accessible information would be a lot nicer than the pop-pseudo-psychology that is stuff like the Ladder Theory and its ilk.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-08-12 at 02:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    Was this comment sparked by my post? If so, that's not what I'm doing. I'm simply overworried about being in a relationship and trying to figure out how not to hate myself for being completely unable to find and attract someone. I still want to be in a relationship, but I want to stop worrying about it.
    No. Nonononono. Not at all. I'm very sorry for giving that impression. If anything, based on what you've said here, I'd point to you as an example of where it doesn't happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    You can frequently hear a girl who's just gone through a bad breakup or something talking about how men are pigs and they're all terrible people and deserve to die. I think both groups do it, and it's a natural tendency to generalise to the entire group rather than specifically blaming somebody you had/have strong feelings for.
    See, I get that, and I'm even fine with it coming from either side. But that's not what I'm talking about. I mean things more like that incident earlier in this thread, or my ex telling me that he's starting to sympathise with his wife-abusing father, or a poster of a Secret talking about setting out on a campaign to hurt as many women as possible, or the sort of stuff Reluctance referred to before. Not the heat-of-the-moment, rarely truly serious "rah men/women!" venting, but long-term perception shifts.

  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    See, I get that, and I'm even fine with it coming from either side. But that's not what I'm talking about. I mean things more like that incident earlier in this thread, or my ex telling me that he's starting to sympathise with his wife-abusing father, or a poster of a Secret talking about setting out on a campaign to hurt as many women as possible, or the sort of stuff Reluctance referred to before. Not the heat-of-the-moment, rarely truly serious "rah men/women!" venting, but long-term perception shifts.
    Huh. That sounds like a couple of nuts, not something common. If it were common we'd have killed ourselves off ages ago. And I've heard some women saying similar things, so I don't think it's a male thing, I think it's an emotionally-unstable-needs-help-person sort of thing.
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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    No. Nonononono. Not at all. I'm very sorry for giving that impression. If anything, based on what you've said here, I'd point to you as an example of where it doesn't happen.
    See, I get that, and I'm even fine with it coming from either side. But that's not what I'm talking about. I mean things more like that incident earlier in this thread, or my ex telling me that he's starting to sympathise with his wife-abusing father, or a poster of a Secret talking about setting out on a campaign to hurt as many women as possible, or the sort of stuff Reluctance referred to before. Not the heat-of-the-moment, rarely truly serious "rah men/women!" venting, but long-term perception shifts.
    Hmmm, I can see it happening. I would imagine though that it's all a very long term thing - perhaps a husband that's been with his wife for over a decade (or vice versa) and she moves on for a younger man. His mind has got set in its ways and because trying to do a 180* turn with your feelings is nigh impossible, it instead gets warped in a bad way. =( Or it may be a systemic behaviour thing that, without the soothing and masking presence of a loving relationship, rises to the surface.

    Changing ingrained long-term behaviours, viewpoints and habits, especially ones that have been like that for over a decade or more, is unbelievably hard to do, even if it's the only way forward sometimes. =(
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    Succubus gets grongratulatory cookies from me. You have stepped into the realm of puns that only the likes of Death, Your Friend the Reaper have seen.

    Posting schedule likely to be erratic for the next few weeks - sorting out some personal stuff.

  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Not the heat-of-the-moment, rarely truly serious "rah men/women!" venting, but long-term perception shifts.
    Yeah, those are pretty creepy. I remember actually seeing a cracked article that looked at a community of such people recently. It was pretty horrifying, especially the links to said community.
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  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Details to come later (on my iPod atm), but I have big news (to me anyhow). I'm seeing someone, as of yesterday. I'm kinda on Cloud Nine at the moment and just wanted to share somewhere.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    We shall hold you down, swarm you, and give you noogies for daring to come in with good news while other people are lovelorn.

    (Don't worry. It's all affectionate.)

  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    And the circular saw you're hiding behind your back....?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas-Dakota View Post
    Succubus gets grongratulatory cookies from me. You have stepped into the realm of puns that only the likes of Death, Your Friend the Reaper have seen.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    We shall hold you down, swarm you, and give you noogies for daring to come in with good news while other people are lovelorn.

    (Don't worry. It's all affectionate.)
    Hey, I just thought a success story might raise spirits around here! (Also, I'm like 900 kinds of excited right now, so yeah.)

    But seriously, folks still working on things: it DOES happen. It's been almost 3 years for me and I just somehow found my way into something awesome. Keep at it, be yourself, take a few risks, ask the scary questions, and accept that sometimes, the scary thing might work out (which is even scarier ). Not sure what else can be said.

    @^: That's for the celebratory cake! Right? Right...?
    Last edited by arguskos; 2012-08-13 at 06:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Are the ways you go about asking someone out different in each culture? There's a girl who goes to my college that's from Italy, and I'd love to ask her out on a date, but I don't wanna make some cultural faux pas while going about it...

    Edit: Also, if any Italians-itP can tell me how you ask someone out in Italian, it'd be awesome. My prof never taught that for some reason (It's clearly the most important thing to learn in a language )
    Last edited by ForzaFiori; 2012-08-13 at 06:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Forza: Google says it's "Vorrei introdurre il mio cazzo alla tua figa". (On a translate back, I swear I used cleaner words like "rooster" when I entered it.)

    More realistically? If she came all the way over here to go to school, she didn't do it to stay culturally insulated. Be proudly american.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    I dunno if anyone ever comes here trying to figure out how not be a creepy towards people they're crushing on, but some guy made a post about the subject here. I read about it on Feministe and thought that it may be useful for some people somewhere along the line, so I figure I'd drop the link for ya'll to use if you ever find it potentially helpful.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Faulty View Post
    I dunno if anyone ever comes here trying to figure out how not be a creepy towards people they're crushing on, but some guy made a post about the subject here. I read about it on Feministe and thought that it may be useful for some people somewhere along the line, so I figure I'd drop the link for ya'll to use if you ever find it potentially helpful.
    Horrible advice. It's been done before. The net effect is to make dudes excessively conscious of every little detail, making them stare too long and act too stilted, and then turn towards hard-sell strategies when that doesn't work.

    It's a classic conundrum. Your restrictions only serve to clam up decent people, while being summarily ignored by the over-the-top bad cases it's written for.

  19. - Top - End - #769
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    That's basically what goes through my head EVERY time I think about hitting on a girl.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    In another thread I said I was going to bed, but here I am, waiting to use the bathroom to brush my teeth, so it's post time.

    ANYWAY, I think it's great advice. If you really think that whole torrent of things, then you probably do not have the self-regulation necessary to tell when you're being creepy or not, which is why advice like "Give them space" or "Someone wants to leave? Don’t go with them". If you can't judge people's reactions by yourself, it's better to be safe than sorry, for yourself and others.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Faulty View Post
    In another thread I said I was going to bed, but here I am, waiting to use the bathroom to brush my teeth, so it's post time.

    ANYWAY, I think it's great advice. If you really think that whole torrent of things, then you've probably had it beaten into your head that every woman sees every man as a potential rapist.
    Fixed that for you.

    The point being, telling guys "don't be like these worst-case scenarios" gets in the way of these guys interacting normally with women, while being completely ignored by the worst-case scenarios.

    This ties in beautifully with Serp's topic. You short-circuit a lot of creepsterism and misogyny by teaching guys how to interact normally with girls. You do that best, not by proscribing their behavior down to practically nothing, but by giving specific pointers on things that do work.

    The fact that the biggest collection of such tricks is invariably dismissed by feminists as "tricking women into having sex" is one of the things that informs my opinion of feminists.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Faulty View Post
    ANYWAY, I think it's great advice. If you really think that whole torrent of things, then you probably do not have the self-regulation necessary to tell when you're being creepy or not, which is why advice like "Give them space" or "Someone wants to leave? Don’t go with them". If you can't judge people's reactions by yourself, it's better to be safe than sorry, for yourself and others.
    What do you mean by torrent? Are you using a non-standard definition here? If not, what torrent or should I be mentally substituting in an "of the" before "whole torrent" and assuming that things refers to the list?

    I must admit that I have my doubts about the number of people who it would have a positive effect upon due to being directed at the audience of a feminist blog, either preaching to the choir or... people to whom it can't be applicable to, because female attraction to female is treated differently by those involved and society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    The fact that the biggest collection of such tricks is invariably dismissed by feminists as "tricking women into having sex" is one of the things that informs my opinion of feminists.
    Are we talking pickup artist collection of tricks or basic how to interact positively with others, how to win friends and influence people collection of tricks?
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    arguskos - Awesome! Also, the "cake" is waiting for you out back.

    As to faulty's link - while the basic ideas (the bolded parts) are perfectly reasonable (for people you don't know or are just meeting, at least); it's when he goes into more details that he gets into the whole 'overkill' thing that Reluctance is talking about.


    As to myself - for those who remember a couple weeks back, I had been exchanging texts with a girl who had postponed a few times, the latest due to a bachelorette party, and said she'd text me the next day regarding whether she'd be free, as she had a potential interview a few hours away the day after that. Long story short, I haven't heard from her since. I asked the day of (after?) her interview how the bachelorette party went, and then was out of town for a little over a week. Currently debating whether to ask about the interview, to give her a cue to talk to me if she's still interested in doing something (plus, even if we haven't met yet, I am curious about how her interview went; just how I function). Going to hold off on sending that until after talking with a friend tomorrow over lunch (I have a few things I want to ask/tell him; trying to work on opening up [emotionally] to my friends, since I'm terrible at doing so). If anyone has any suggestions in the meantime, I'm all ears.
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  24. - Top - End - #774
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    I wish you luck, but I must admit, this reminds me of a time when one of my friends asked me to frozen yogurt, took a rain check on it, disappeared on the day we had rescheduled for to go to a wedding in another state, started drunk-sexting me after the bachelorette party, and then I didn't hear from her again until months later and only because she responded to a comment of mine on a mutual friend's facebook page & I found that she had started dating some other guy about a week or two after she stood me up.

    The weird thing was that there was no "date-connotations" to it until she decided to drunk-sext me.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Coid - I'm definitely not putting too much stock in this working out, and you're not the first (in this thread, even) to say it reminded you of something that failed fairly epicly. Would I be happy if it did? Of course, there's a reason I messaged her in the first place (online dating, we've never actually met in person). If it didn't work out, however, I wouldn't be too torn up about it. Annoyed that it kind of got screwed over by poor timing, but hers was the first (of a dozen) messages that got any response, so I'm taking that as a sign of progress and hope, regardless of what happens here.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Faulty View Post
    I dunno if anyone ever comes here trying to figure out how not be a creepy towards people they're crushing on, but some guy made a post about the subject here. I read about it on Feministe and thought that it may be useful for some people somewhere along the line, so I figure I'd drop the link for ya'll to use if you ever find it potentially helpful.
    While it's not horrible advice to tell people not to expect anyone to ever help them, ever, the feeling I get from that article is, "Hey, you. The one who has trouble interacting with people. Go away. We don't want you. Go die lonely somewhere. We don't care if you honestly don't understand what you're doing that makes other people uncomfortable. Figure it out yourself or stay away from everyone forever."

    It's also extremely unhelpful to someone like me who often (apparently) completely misinterprets social situations, especially towards people not wanting to be around me. I've had times where I thought no one in a group wanted to talk to me (largely due to several people quickly leaving conversations with me) and had someone else later say they thought I was doing well. I still don't know which was true, but the advice given in that article would very quickly lead to me sitting in a corner trying to avoid doing anything. Also, if the person I'm making uncomfortable doesn't tell me what I'm doing, then who is going to do so? They're the only one that actually knows what it is I'm doing. So while it might be their right to not tell me, I think I'd be within my rights to be annoyed at them for not doing so if I'm genuinely trying to make myself better.
    Last edited by Sholos; 2012-08-14 at 12:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    Fixed that for you.

    The point being, telling guys "don't be like these worst-case scenarios" gets in the way of these guys interacting normally with women, while being completely ignored by the worst-case scenarios..
    You say worst-case scenario. I say painfully common among otherwise nice people who would try to change their behavior for the better if it were brought to their attention. Seriously, I used to have some creeper-lite tendencies until I read this article on what not to do, and I've recognized that accidental behavior in a veritable bevy of other people.


    You do that best, not by proscribing their behavior down to practically nothing, but by giving specific pointers on things that do work.
    It's both, though. Knowing what not to do is just as important as knowing what to do, if not more so. If you're chatting up a lovely lady you've just met and it's going well, but then you accidentally make her uncomfortable, chances are she will find a reason to excuse herself and not look back. The blog I linked to does have plenty of pointers on things that do work, but first things first.

    ANYWAY! I come with two situations.

    The first, and mostly venting:
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    My ex and I, after some rough patches, are good friends. There are no lingering romantic feelings on my part, and I genuinely wish her well. Which is why it is so infuriating when I see her going back to one particular ex. I know, it's very common for someone to hate their ex-lovers lovers on the flimsiest basis, but this guy is just scum. Harsh? I don't think so. The kind of person who would fake a suicide attempt because he was jealous deserves that label, I'd think. And she's going back to him! What!? We've had several arguments about this over the past few weeks, and I've asked her to not talk to me about him anymore because OH MY GOD does he set me on edge. I know, I can lead her to water all day but I can't make her drink. It is just very difficult and frustrating for me to watch her go down this path again.


    The second!
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    So, about 4 years ago I met this girl at my job. Our dynamic was not unlike Jim and Pam's from The (American) Office; we made each other laugh, we flirted a little, we "got" each other in ways most other people didn't, but we were both happily attached and so nothing happened. About a year ago she got a new job, but has come back for the summer to do an internship she needs for her degree. We fell right back into our old dynamic, but it seemed that her flirting had more of an "edge" to it than it did before, which I dismissed as wishful thinking.

    However, she recently revealed to me that she's thinking of breaking up with her boyfriend because of the passive-aggressive jealousy he's been displaying, and asked my advice on the situation. From what I heard (Example: He packed most of his stuff in boxes and set it by the door "to remind her that he could go at any time") it sounded to me like he was looking for a way out, but wanted her to break up with him so that he wouldn't have to be the "bad guy". I said as much, but also told her that she should try to talk it out with him first, and gave her some advice on how to do so. I also asked her to think if after so long, she might be with him out of habit more than anything else. She said maybe, and then asked if she should stay single for a while after breaking up with him, if she breaks up with him. I said "Eh, the important thing is not to force it either way. If you want to stay single, stay single. If someone comes along that you really like and who feels right, though, don't miss an opportunity because you think you need to stay single." To which she said "Like, say, someone named [Marillion]?" I'm sure I blushed, but I kinda "Pffft, right"'d, and changed the subject, but over the rest of the night she continued to make references to our pretend relationship.

    The point of this rambling thing: First, I haven't given relationship advice to many people besides my ex, and I'm kind of wondering how I did. Second, do you think my flirt-detector needs calibrating for hypersensitivity, or could I maybe have something here?
    Last edited by Marillion; 2012-08-13 at 11:56 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #778
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Marillion View Post
    You say worst-case scenario. I say painfully common among otherwise nice people who would try to change their behavior for the better if it were brought to their attention. Seriously, I used to have some creeper-lite tendencies until I read this article on what not to do, and I've recognized that accidental behavior in a veritable bevy of other people.

    It's both, though. Knowing what not to do is just as important as knowing what to do, if not more so. If you're chatting up a lovely lady you've just met and it's going well, but then you accidentally make her uncomfortable, chances are she will find a reason to excuse herself and not look back. The blog I linked to does have plenty of pointers on things that do work, but first things first.
    That article is a lot more helpful because it actually offers suggestions on how to act. Anyone with even a little psychology under their belt should know that if you want to extinguish a behavior, it'll happen much, much faster if you provide an alternate, more desired behavior to engage in. Being told what not to do doesn't really help if you don't have any clue what to do. It's like being told not to paint a sky purple when the "correct" color is blue. Okay, so you paint it yellow. Still wrong! Okay, so you paint it pink. Still wrong! It goes a lot faster if you start out being told, "Paint the sky blue," instead of trying to figure out the right color through trial and error.

    I also think there's a huge tendency out there for people to conflate "not respecting boundaries" with "socially awkward". People who are socially awkward don't even necessarily know where boundaries are, and if they're not told, then I don't think it's right to be all that upset with them for breaching them. If they don't get your subtle hints, move up to explicit ones before saying that they're not respecting your boundaries. Disrespect of anything is an intentional action. Without knowledge, there can be no intent, and assuming that someone is perfectly knowledgeable of all your own little quirks is just stupid and will lead to you getting even more frustrated. I like the xkcd comic linked a few posts ago. Definitely shows what can very easily happen with this kind of thinking going on.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    Fixed that for you.

    The point being, telling guys "don't be like these worst-case scenarios" gets in the way of these guys interacting normally with women, while being completely ignored by the worst-case scenarios.

    This ties in beautifully with Serp's topic. You short-circuit a lot of creepsterism and misogyny by teaching guys how to interact normally with girls. You do that best, not by proscribing their behavior down to practically nothing, but by giving specific pointers on things that do work.

    The fact that the biggest collection of such tricks is invariably dismissed by feminists as "tricking women into having sex" is one of the things that informs my opinion of feminists.
    How is that article proscribing their behavior down to nothing? All it's saying is how to respect people's boundaries, which is a very important thing to be aware of when interacting with people in general, regardless of gender or whether you want to date them. Which one of those points limits people's behaviour to practically nothing?
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by ForzaFiori View Post
    Are the ways you go about asking someone out different in each culture? There's a girl who goes to my college that's from Italy, and I'd love to ask her out on a date, but I don't wanna make some cultural faux pas while going about it...

    Edit: Also, if any Italians-itP can tell me how you ask someone out in Italian, it'd be awesome. My prof never taught that for some reason (It's clearly the most important thing to learn in a language )
    very basic?
    ti va di uscire con me, xdě sera?
    do you fancy going out with me, xday afternoon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    Forza: Google says it's "Vorrei introdurre il mio cazzo alla tua figa". (On a translate back, I swear I used cleaner words like "rooster" when I entered it.)
    yeah.. that one would never have gotten through the forum censorship, had it been in English.
    also, it's fundamentally wrong.. in a number of hilarious ways.
    you could use it.. provided she's really drunk, really horny and a bit of a slapper anyway... (that, or she has a overdeveloped sense of humour..)
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