Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solution

[Coidzor]

Coid - I'm definitely not putting too much stock in this working out, and you're not the first (in this thread, even) to say it reminded you of something that failed fairly epicly. Would I be happy if it did? Of course, there's a reason I messaged her in the first place (online dating, we've never actually met in person). If it didn't work out, however, I wouldn't be too torn up about it. Annoyed that it kind of got screwed over by poor timing, but hers was the first (of a dozen) messages that got any response, so I'm taking that as a sign of progress and hope, regardless of what happens here.

Sorry about that, I think I got so wrapped up in a flashback I forgot to actually try to be a decent sort there. x.x

Hmm, if you're not going to be too torn up about it then, I suppose what I had originally intended to say about caution and giving a bit of real time before initiating contact again is pretty superfluous anyway though. Ack.

[Reluctance]

Are we talking pickup artist collection of tricks or basic how to interact positively with others, how to win friends and influence people collection of tricks?

PUA. While I'm fully aware how the community is a not-healthy place, it seems like most discussions treat that as an afterthought. The simple idea seems to offend many people.

The point of this rambling thing: First, I haven't given relationship advice to many people besides my ex, and I'm kind of wondering how I did. Second, do you think my flirt-detector needs calibrating for hypersensitivity, or could I maybe have something here?

Yes, she was flirting. The bigger question is if there was intent behind it, or if it was simply a fun way for her to acknowledge that people find her attractive. The latter is popular and fun, but isn't meant to go anywhere.

As to your advice, when someone is wiling to play games on her boyfriend's level... go read Savage Love. He has an acronym for situations like that. DTMFA.

How is that article proscribing their behavior down to nothing? All it's saying is how to respect people's boundaries, which is a very important thing to be aware of when interacting with people in general, regardless of gender or whether you want to date them. Which one of those points limits people's behaviour to practically nothing?

First, if people tend to screw things up by doing A too much, the solution is not to never do A at all. There's lots of crappy advice along those line. "Creepy", to the degree that it's a useful term, means not giving the proper responses to unconscious social cues. Overdoing it in the opposite direction is still going to cause missteps and creepiness.

Second, I don't know how active you were when people were asking for online profile reviews, but one thing I like about OKC's in-house forums is that they're honest about things. You can follow all the typical advice (good grammar, no crude come-ons, personalize your messages), and still not get any response; the reasons often boil down to things like "be more attractive" and "be less boring". The people who make the most obvious mistakes are either too clueless to notice when things are off, or are deliberately trying to unnerve others for some weird power rush. There's little that can be easily done about either. There's a whole world of pointers besides the blindingly obvious.

People who are socially awkward don't even necessarily know where boundaries are, and if they're not told, then I don't think it's right to be all that upset with them for breaching them. If they don't get your subtle hints, move up to explicit ones before saying that they're not respecting your boundaries.

Yes. But.

It's good for women to speak up when a line is crossed, for multiple reasons. It's good for bystanders to pull you aside when you're overdoing it. In both cases, it's asking for a lot of time and effort on their part to explain exactly why. Other people have other things to be busy with, and aren't obligated to give in-depth social tutorials at any given moment.

When that happens, though, it usually means that lines have already been crossed. The girl who says "okay, a little too close" has already filed you away as someone who violates her personal space. You can turn that into a graceful failure by being polite and excusing yourself soon. Trying to make something happen after that is clearly pushing boundaries, and pushes you from oaf to jerk. Improving your social aptitude is your responsibility, not other people's to overlook it.

[rogueboy]

Sorry about that, I think I got so wrapped up in a flashback I forgot to actually try to be a decent sort there. x.x

Eh, it happens. It was good advice, even if not exactly applicable to this situation.

Hmm, if you're not going to be too torn up about it then, I suppose what I had originally intended to say about caution and giving a bit of real time before initiating contact again is pretty superfluous anyway though. Ack.

Well, it's been 2 weeks (most of which I've been out of town for, admittedly) since my last text to her. I'm working on the assumption that's enough time between attempts to initiate contact.

[ForzaFiori]

very basic?
ti va di uscire con me, xdì sera?
do you fancy going out with me, xday afternoon?

Huh. Somehow I thought that it wouldn't just be a direct translation.

Thanks to everyone who's offered advice. I'll probably be asking her out after she gets back to Clemson in a week, and I'll let y'all know how it goes.

[Marillion]

Yes, she was flirting. The bigger question is if there was intent behind it, or if it was simply a fun way for her to acknowledge that people find her attractive. The latter is popular and fun, but isn't meant to go anywhere.

Well yes, clearly she was flirting with me. The bolded part was the question I meant to ask

[ForzaFiori]

until I read this article on what not to do

Having read that, I think I'll personally punch the next person who tells me "Oh, girls aren't complicated, they're just like guys!" in the face.

Oh, and try to back off on the stuff mentioned there. I didn't see too much that I (to my knowledge) do, but maybe now I'll notice if I start.

[Faulty]

First, if people tend to screw things up by doing A too much, the solution is not to never do A at all. There's lots of crappy advice along those line. "Creepy", to the degree that it's a useful term, means not giving the proper responses to unconscious social cues. Overdoing it in the opposite direction is still going to cause missteps and creepiness.

The solution to creeperness that comes from touching, boxing in, defining other people's boundaries for them, etc. is to... not do those things. Everything that that article says not to do is hands down rude behaviour. The guide is not being creepy, which it provides; it's a don't do list, not a do list. It's no one's job to hold your hand and tell you what to do. Marillion's article is better for that, but regardless of whether you follow one, both or neither of the articles, your behaviour is your responsibility. Unless you have some disability that not only impacts your social skills, but actually prevents you from improving your behaviour (such as clinical depression), then you have no one to blame but yourself. Sadly, reality is kind of a bitch.

So someone wrote a quasi-follow-up to John's original post that I linked. check it here if you want further expansion. That one also has constructive advice similar to Marillion's.

[Sholos]

Yes. But.

It's good for women to speak up when a line is crossed, for multiple reasons. It's good for bystanders to pull you aside when you're overdoing it. In both cases, it's asking for a lot of time and effort on their part to explain exactly why. Other people have other things to be busy with, and aren't obligated to give in-depth social tutorials at any given moment.

I'm not asking for an in-depth tutorial, just a simple, "This is what you're doing right now that makes me uncomfortable." A simple explanation is hardly too much to ask and makes everything easier and clearer on both sides.

When that happens, though, it usually means that lines have already been crossed. The girl who says "okay, a little too close" has already filed you away as someone who violates her personal space. You can turn that into a graceful failure by being polite and excusing yourself soon. Trying to make something happen after that is clearly pushing boundaries, and pushes you from oaf to jerk. Improving your social aptitude is your responsibility, not other people's to overlook it.

I didn't say anything about anyone overlooking it. What I said was that if a person is never told what they're doing wrong, they'll going to have a severely hard time correcting it and it's wrong to look down on them for that. And, yes, if someone tells you that you're too close and you keep getting closer, that's pushing boundaries. I'm talking about a situation where someone is too close according to someone else but not to him ad no one says anything. It's not really fair to blame the guy if he honestly has no idea he's doing anything wrong.

[Aedilred]

Meh... I can see good points on both sides here. On the one hand, sure, it's your responsibility to learn these behaviours (although you'd hope that those who raised and educated you would make some effort to teach them). On the other hand, if they don't come naturally to you, learning them is difficult, especially if people are only prepared to tell you what not to do, rather than what to do.

I feel like there used to be at least vaguely defined social rules to govern this sort of thing, but now everybody just seems to make them up as they go along, which makes things even harder. If you're not naturally good at reading body language, you're basically on your own. All too often, one's desire not to come across as a creep means that one just doesn't talk to people.

It's not just a one-way thing, either. I'm fairly reserved, normally, and I'm not a big fan of physical contact - beyond handshakes or a tap on the shoulder - from people I don't know very well. But for some reason it's ok for girls who in some cases I've only just met to hug me, and if I try to decline politely then everyone tells me not to be so uptight. So, if I invade anyone else's personal space, I'm a weirdo... but if they invade mine and I get uncomfortable, I'm still a weirdo.

I'm not good at reading body language, or at least I don't have enough confidence in my ability to do so to respond to it. So social situations with people I don't know well are very uncomfortable. I treat everybody very formally, because I'm wary that showing too much interest in anyone makes me look like a creep. It's therefore very frustrating when I hear that girls who would otherwise have been interested have assumed that I'm not interested in them and acted accordingly (it's happened more often than I'd like).

And compared to many of my friends, I'm actually really good at this.

It's pretty dispiriting when you've been struggling your whole life to adapt to an extrovert's world where you already feel unwelcome to be told, "well, it's your problem, deal with it". That attitude isn't going to help anyone become less awkward and apparently creepy, although it might mean they end up locking themselves away from society forever.

[Faulty]

Is the guy at fault, even if it's an accident? If yes, then he's at fault, and being at fault is being at fault regardless of intention. You may not necessarily look down on him (or her or them or whatever), but they're responsible for the discomfort. That sucks, but it's true. No one owes you can explanation, tutorial or even a "this makes me uncomfortable", they have every right to just make an excuse and walk away. In a perfect world, people would be communicative of their needs, but that is unfortunately not the case.

but if they invade mine and I get uncomfortable, I'm still a weirdo.

Hell no. No one has a right to tell you that your boundaries make you weird. They're your boundaries and everyone has their right to theirs.

It's pretty dispiriting when you've been struggling your whole life to adapt to an extrovert's world where you already feel unwelcome to be told, "well, it's your problem, deal with it". That attitude isn't going to help anyone become less awkward and apparently creepy, although it might mean they end up locking themselves away from society forever.

It is their job (it's my job, because, while people rarely find me creepy, I at least have the problems on an introvert being stuck in an extroverted world). I mean, if not theirs/ours/mine, whose else is it? I'm not saying **** off and die, I'm saying that, albeit unfairly, your behaviour is your responsibility. Thankfully the world has therapists, friends, lovers, family, self-help books and informative blog posts to help you know what and/or what not to do.

[sktarq]

Hell no. No one has a right to tell you that your boundaries make you weird. They're your boundaries and everyone has their right to theirs.

I'm going to have to say it. Nope people will still treat him as a wierdo. Blantant double standard, quote the in perfect world all you like it is how the majority of people will treat him. True even if a guy trys to hug and be a "bro" in many subcultures. *shrug* Formality helps alot but can lead to to above mentioned "not interested so why should I be" issues. I try to use an edge to my humour for it but that only mitigates so much. Catch 22.

[Faulty]

I'm going to have to say it. Nope people will still treat him as a wierdo. Blantant double standard, quote the in perfect world all you like it is how the majority of people will treat him. True even if a guy trys to hug and be a "bro" in many subcultures. *shrug* Formality helps alot but can lead to to above mentioned "not interested so why should I be" issues. I try to use an edge to my humour for it but that only mitigates so much. Catch 22.

I'm saying that he's not weird. People may treat him like that, but it's not right.

[Rawhide]

Weird is anything that is strikingly odd or unusual. This means that anything that is vastly different to what someone expects is weird to them. Everybody has some characteristic that will make them weird to somebody else.

Once people get used to whatever it is that is "strikingly odd or unusual", and learn to accept and understand it, it will no longer be weird to them. Because what's weird and what's not weird depends on who is observing it, you can't say that someone isn't weird, you can only say that they are perfectly ok being who they are and that the characteristic is perfectly acceptable to have.

Those that find it weird need to learn that too.

[Heliomance]

So I'm single again. I'm... I guess "heartbroken" is a fairly accurate description :/

[Faulty]

you can only say that they are perfectly ok being who they are and that the characteristic is perfectly acceptable to have.

This is what I was trying to express.

[Aedilred]

I'm saying that he's not weird. People may treat him like that, but it's not right.

You're probably right (I think you are) but unfortunately the practical difference that being right in that context makes is negligible.

[Castaras]

So I'm single again. I'm... I guess "heartbroken" is a fairly accurate description :/

*hugs*

Dr Cassie prescribes lots of icecream and chocolate. Hope you're holding out okay.

[Rawhide]

Aedilred: Have you seen a psychologist about your differences? Have you been diagnosed with anything? If you have/do, would you have any reservations about sharing that diagnosis with them?

If you're comfortable with it, that can go a long way to helping them to understand you.

[Reluctance]

*hugs*

Dr Cassie prescribes lots of icecream and chocolate. Hope you're holding out okay.

I believe you meant sherbet.

[sktarq]

You're probably right (I think you are) but unfortunately the practical difference that being right in that context makes is negligible.

Sad but very true.

So I'm single again. I'm... I guess "heartbroken" is a fairly accurate description :/

Very sorry to hear that. I more recomend a mindlessly violet video game myself but other than that ummm. . . cookie? tea?

[Worira]

Yeah, you know what? Some boundaries aren't OK. Someone is disturbed by the presence of, say, black men? Guess what, the correct answer isn't "Remember that you don’t get to define other people’s comfort level with you.".

[Coidzor]

Hell no. No one has a right to tell you that your boundaries make you weird. They're your boundaries and everyone has their right to theirs.

Well, it's not hate speech and observations of the unusual are observations of the unusual. Can't really do anything about what's in other's minds' control settings and generally any kind of attempt to do so is morally wrong, but, well, when you're invoking rights it gets complicated as to whether you mean rights or rights.

And there's other concerns as Worira points out. It's also rather awkward, having to listen to someone confide in you that she'd be interested in a mutual friend's romantic overtures if he had a different shade of skin. It seemed a rather muddled path as to what to do morally there, I tell you.

[Faulty]

Man, I was trying to reassure to him, in case he felt that way, that he wasn't "a weirdo" and now we're talking about explicit racism. Whaaaaaaaaaat?

[Coidzor]

Man, I was trying to reassure to him, in case he felt that way, that he wasn't "a weirdo" and now we're talking about explicit racism. Whaaaaaaaaaat?

Life is weird and I know I'm not the only playgrounder who has had some weird experiences even in comparison with the base-level weirdness of existence.

[Aedilred]

Aedilred: Have you seen a psychologist about your differences? Have you been diagnosed with anything? If you have/do, would you have any reservations about sharing that diagnosis with them?

If you're comfortable with it, that can go a long way to helping them to understand you.

I haven't, and to be honest I don't think I have any condition worth diagnosing. As I say, I struggle with this a lot less than many of my friends, and I don't find normal social interaction so difficult as to cause any significant problems.

Having some direct experience of the problems it can cause, though, I find the attitudes discussed earlier (specifically the "don'ts lists") unhelpful. I'm more comfortable in my own skin these days, but in the past I've focussed so heavily on what I shouldn't be doing that I end up coming across as very reserved and cold. It doesn't help make a great first impression, and I know I've missed opportunities with women before because I've been making such an effort not to be over-interested that I've come across as not interested at all.

It's also pretty difficult to learn the "correct" set of behaviours when there isn't one, everybody has their own set, and you don't find out what the rules are for any given individual until you've already had to make a decision how to behave. Likewise, the "hugging double standard" mentioned earlier (which applies in a lot of cases) - I don't know if that's a "male" thing or a "geek" thing, but either way it really doesn't make life any easier when you're trying to work out the "correct" way to behave.

Seriously, though, this is now, for me, at the level of a minor day-to-day irritation rather than a serious problem.

Very sorry to hear that. I more recomend a mindlessly violet video game myself but other than that ummm. . . cookie? tea?

Superman 64 was pretty mindlessly green. I don't know about mindlessly violet, though. </flippancy>

More seriously, I'm sorry to hear about that, Heliomance. Condolences.

[Logic]

Yeah, you know what? Some boundaries aren't OK. Someone is disturbed by the presence of, say, black men? Guess what, the correct answer isn't "Remember that you don’t get to define other people’s comfort level with you.".

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

If the bigoted individual in question is upset with the presence of someone in public, it is well within their right to go somewhere else. If they bigoted individual is in their own home, they have every right to tell the offensive person to leave.

You can't tell someone what they are not allowed to be upset with. Even if they are upset with something that is offensively prejudiced. But I think it is also the responsibility of people to be respectful of others, even if their opinions and beliefs are offensive and bigoted.

[Worira]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

If the bigoted individual in question is upset with the presence of someone in public, it is well within their right to go somewhere else. If they bigoted individual is in their own home, they have every right to tell the offensive person to leave.

You can't tell someone what they are not allowed to be upset with. Even if they are upset with something that is offensively prejudiced. But I think it is also the responsibility of people to be respectful of others, even if their opinions and beliefs are offensive and bigoted.

I agree. What it is not within their right to do is tell the person, in a public space, to leave. Or, more precisely, while it is their right to do so, it is not the responsibility, morally or legally, or the person being told to leave to do so unless there is a valid reason for it to be.

[Heliomance]

I believe you meant sherbet.

Hmm, sherbet with Cassie. I find this idea... intriguing.

[The Succubus]

*imagines Cassie and Helio together* Mmmmm.....

Are things over between you and your sweetie then? *hugs*

[Heliomance]

I don't know. I sent her a handwritten letter yesterday, we'll see if that does anything. Mostly at the moment she seems to be trying to act like we're friends and that there's no awkwardness, which is kinda weird.