Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solution

[Lord Loss]

@Ceric

I personally support the way you shot him down. I've been in situations where I've been giving advice to both the guy and girl in situations like that, and if the girl isn't completely blunt from the get-go, the guy can often end up inventing a bunch of excuses for why the girl is ''acting like she doesn't like him when she does'' that ends with him making more and more advances that are creepy/abusive for the girl and he often ends up feeling humiliated/guilty/embarassed by the end of it. Better to be harsh one time than to need to deal with the issue over and over.

@Rabbit

Hang in there. I know how it feels to have someone you cared for, who you thought cared for you running off with someone else, and it feels like ****. How you're feeling right now is perfectly normal, and you shouldn't feel guilty or wrong for it.

Doctor L prescribes ice-cream, hugs and time with friends. It helps.

Also, how are you feeling about getting back into the pool yourself, so to speak? By which I mean look out for other relationsups.

@Reluctance

That was needlessly cruel. I usually try not to pick fights over the internet, and I generally agree with a lot of things you have to say, but that was really uncalled for.

@Imbasel

Spend time with the girl, be a little flirty (not too flirty, she is in a relationship after all) and see how things pan out. Not much else to do. But keep out for other relationships too, don't attach yourself to the hope that she'll leave go for you in time, cause hse might not.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Umm...there's probably a link I've missed somewhere, but could someone please explain the whole "nice guy/Nice Guy" thing to me?

I gather it's something along these lines: http://xkcd.com/513/

A nice guy does nice things for a person for a variety of reasons, usually because they enjoy being nice to people. A Nice Guy does nice things for a person they want to have sex with because they believe they'll be repaid with the aforementioned sex. One does things as a gift, the other expects a transaction without you really consenting to it beforehand.

[noparlpf]

What's a good way of turning somebody down if you're concerned about staying friends and not hurting their feelings? Apparently my other asexual friend and I are the go-to people for relationship advice. She has absolutely no idea. And all of my advice comes from what not to do, because between the two of us, my ex and I did basically all of that.

[Cobra_Ikari]

What's a good way of turning somebody down if you're concerned about staying friends and not hurting their feelings? Apparently my other asexual friend and I are the go-to people for relationship advice. She has absolutely no idea. And all of my advice comes from what not to do, because between the two of us, my ex and I did basically all of that.

"I'm sorry, I just don't think of you in that way, and I'd rather we remain just good friends?"

I dunno, a lot of times, the way a person takes a rejection has more to do with that person's personality than the actual method of rejection. I mean, yes, you can reject someone cruelly, but no matter how nice you are, you can't really know beforehand how they'll take it.

EDIT: Oh, and never lie in a rejection. Saying something like "I'm not interested in a relationship right now" instead of "I'm not interested in a relationship with you" seems like a nice way to let someone down, but it can end up with them feeling led on or lied to, depending on how things go further down the road. >.>

[The Succubus]

A nice guy does nice things for a person for a variety of reasons, usually because they enjoy being nice to people. A Nice Guy does nice things for a person they want to have sex with because they believe they'll be repaid with the aforementioned sex. One does things as a gift, the other expects a transaction without you really consenting to it beforehand.

Would doing things because you like seeing people smile and feeling happy to see you count as Nice Guy behaviour? =/

[noparlpf]

Would doing things because you like seeing people smile and feeling happy to see you count as Nice Guy behaviour? =/

That seems to fall under lowercase nice guy.

[Lord Loss]

@ Succubus

No, not at all. It's specifically doing something nice with the sole objective of getting laid/getting into a relationship and being angry and resentful when that end isn't met. Like ''what the hell, I was nice after she got dumped, took her out for ice cream, helped her move and she didn't give me any action! what a (explicit)'' would be a, perhaps extreme, example of Nice Guy behavior.

[Serpentine]

Would doing things because you like seeing people smile and feeling happy to see you count as Nice Guy behaviour? =/

The key elements of a Nice Guy are a sense of entitlement ("I'm so nice to her all the time, so why won't she go out with me?"), and spinelessness - the inability to say no and lay down boundaries. There may be a couple of others, too, though. Often closely associated with the "Why do girls only date jerks?" and Ladder Theory nonsenses, too.
I believe there was a good article somewhere specifically about Nice Guys, can't remember where though.

[rogueboy]

The way I usually think about the nice guy/Nice Guy issue (when I think about it at all) is this:

Do something nice for someone for their benefit (because you want to see them happy)? nice guy
Do something nice for someone for your own benefit (get something in return)? Nice Guy

[The Succubus]

Hmmm.

I think, from what has been said, I would class myself as a former Nice Guy and I'm working on being a nice guy. I just find it hard to be alone sometimes.

If you could find that link, I'd be grateful as it would give me a list of things I can watch out for.

[Gitman00]

Thoughts on the whole "Nice guys get dumped on in favor of jerks" thing.

1. Don't be "nice". Be good. There is a difference between a "Nice Guy" and a good man. A good man will do the right thing, regardless of whether it comes across as "nice". The nice guy (and in this post I'll use the term to refer to the kind of guy who would actually say "Nice guys get dumped on in favor of jerks" out loud) is so invested in everyone thinking of him as nice, that he does bad things out of peer pressure or - more often - does nothing when he should do something, because someone might not like it.

2. Being nice does not mean anyone owes you anything. A "nice guy" will often have a sense of entitlement, and not even realize it. "I shouldn't have to work at getting a girlfriend. Look how nice I am! Why doesn't [girl I like] see it?" So instead of confidently asking her out, he'll do "nice" things for her so she'll see how nice he is and fall for him. This becomes frustrating because, if she's not already a friend, it can come off as stalkerish. If she is a friend, well, he's just doing what friends do. The whole time, the "nice guy" will be thinking, "Why doesn't she see/appreciate everything I'm doing for her? I'm so nice!" This brings us to the next point...

3. If you're a friend, be a friend. A friend-zoned nice guy often (but not always) becomes the go-to guy for the object of his affections to talk about her relationship problems. Because he's non-threatening, she feels she can open up to him. So he hears about the problems she's having with her SO, and this adds to his frustration because why is she still with this guy if he's such a jerk? There's a perfect guy right in front of her, and he'd never do those mean things to her!

If you truly do care about her, respect that she's with someone else. If she becomes available, then ask her out. But don't mope and pity yourself because she's not with you.

4. The guy she's dating is probably not a jerk. Just gonna throw that right out there. Some women do repeatedly, tragically, date and marry guys who treat them like crap, but I tend to think that happens less often than "nice guys" think. The nice guy is usually projecting. He sees the other guy as a jerk because he's a rival. If I think a girl should belong to with me, obviously any other guy she's with is not good enough for her, right? And there's a more primal reason - a rival male is threatening. Males fight over females all over the animal kingdom.

This may be compounded by the issue discussed in point 3 - he may only hear about it when her boyfriend does something mean or insensitive, so he never really gets to know who the boyfriend really is.

5. Be confident. The quality that gets mistaken for "jerkiness," I am convinced, is confidence. Confidence is attractive. Jerks usually have it (after all, you have to have a certain amount of confidence to treat others like crap and not care), but not everyone who has it is a jerk. The "nice guy" usually doesn't have it, and he's jealous of those who do, even if he doesn't realize it himself. He hopes the girl he likes will see how nice he is, but he doesn't ask her out because he's afraid of rejection. Protip: Confident guys are afraid of rejection too. It takes courage to ask a girl out, especially if you care what she thinks of you. But the difference is, a confident guy goes into it assuming she'll say yes. And when she says no, if he respects her he'll accept that even if he doesn't like it.

EDIT: Another aspect of confidence is having opinions of your own. Don't be so caught up in impressing her that you agree with everything she says. It usually comes across as insincere. If you're confident in yourself, you can be yourself without worrying if she'll like you. (Thanks to Ceric's article below for reminding me of this one)

Another point Serpie brings up: Arrogance and confidence go hand in hand, and it can be hard to tell the difference between the two. Confidence is sexy; arrogance is not. It's a fine line, but it's all about respect. If you respect yourself, you'll be confident. If you respect others, you can be humble as well. Humility does not mean thinking badly of yourself - it means thinking accurately of yourself.

Where the "nice guy" sees arrogance, the "girl-who-dates-jerks" might see confidence. Either or both of them might be right. Keep it in perspective, and remember that right or wrong, it's her decision to make.
/EDIT


I say all this from the perspective of one who considered himself a "nice guy" for years, and never got dates. So most of that stuff above, I did. It wasn't until later that I looked back and saw that a lot of the things about me that I thought made me a nice guy actually came across as kind of creepy. It didn't change until I was helping an attractive friend of a friend move into her new apartment. A week later, she asked me out. I had no ulterior motive, and no romantic intentions toward her - and that made the difference. I helped her with no expectation of reward, and she saw that. It was a turning point, because not only did I get a confidence boost, it made me objectively reexamine the reasons for my previous lack of a love life. If I really was attractive enough for a more-or-less stranger to ask me out, what had I been doing wrong before?

And one final disclaimer: "Nice," as I use it in this post, is different from "kind". Kindness is always a good thing, and I encourage everyone to show kindness to everyone they meet. What I rail against is the kind of entitled "nice guy" who thinks he's being kind, but is really being a doormat and/or being nice in hopes of a sexual reward. I heartily subscribe to the maxim, "Don't mistake my kindness for weakness."

[Ceric]

This article is also relevant to the Nice Guy discussion. It doesn't give the same entitlement definition as usual (not that I'm saying the entitlement isn't part of the problem as well). I've found it accurate in my experience and I assume it's also accurate for the Facebook friend I got it from, but I'm curious what you guys think.

[The Succubus]

By the by, did that PM I sent you help at all?

[Ceric]

Ooh, yes, sorry, I've been meaning and meaning to reply to that but it's long and I've been busy >.> I think not all of it applies to me but the second half was something I hadn't thought about so that was nice

[The Succubus]

No worries - it was quite the wall of text. =p Glad some of it helped though.

[Serpentine]

Spoiler

Show

Thoughts on the whole "Nice guys get dumped on in favor of jerks" thing.

1. Don't be "nice". Be good. There is a difference between a "Nice Guy" and a good man. A good man will do the right thing, regardless of whether it comes across as "nice". The nice guy (and in this post I'll use the term to refer to the kind of guy who would actually say "Nice guys get dumped on in favor of jerks" out loud) is so invested in everyone thinking of him as nice, that he does bad things out of peer pressure or - more often - does nothing when he should do something, because someone might not like it.

2. Being nice does not mean anyone owes you anything. A "nice guy" will often have a sense of entitlement, and not even realize it. "I shouldn't have to work at getting a girlfriend. Look how nice I am! Why doesn't [girl I like] see it?" So instead of confidently asking her out, he'll do "nice" things for her so she'll see how nice he is and fall for him. This becomes frustrating because, if she's not already a friend, it can come off as stalkerish. If she is a friend, well, he's just doing what friends do. The whole time, the "nice guy" will be thinking, "Why doesn't she see/appreciate everything I'm doing for her? I'm so nice!" This brings us to the next point...

3. If you're a friend, be a friend. A friend-zoned nice guy often (but not always) becomes the go-to guy for the object of his affections to talk about her relationship problems. Because he's non-threatening, she feels she can open up to him. So he hears about the problems she's having with her SO, and this adds to his frustration because why is she still with this guy if he's such a jerk? There's a perfect guy right in front of her, and he'd never do those mean things to her!

If you truly do care about her, respect that she's with someone else. If she becomes available, then ask her out. But don't mope and pity yourself because she's not with you.

4. The guy she's dating is probably not a jerk. Just gonna throw that right out there. Some women do repeatedly, tragically, date and marry guys who treat them like crap, but I tend to think that happens less often than "nice guys" think. The nice guy is usually projecting. He sees the other guy as a jerk because he's a rival. If I think a girl should belong to with me, obviously any other guy she's with is not good enough for her, right? And there's a more primal reason - a rival male is threatening. Males fight over females all over the animal kingdom.

This may be compounded by the issue discussed in point 3 - he may only hear about it when her boyfriend does something mean or insensitive, so he never really gets to know who the boyfriend really is.

5. Be confident. The quality that gets mistaken for "jerkiness," I am convinced, is confidence. Confidence is attractive. Jerks usually have it (after all, you have to have a certain amount of confidence to treat others like crap and not care), but not everyone who has it is a jerk. The "nice guy" usually doesn't have it, and he's jealous of those who do, even if he doesn't realize it himself. He hopes the girl he likes will see how nice he is, but he doesn't ask her out because he's afraid of rejection. Protip: Confident guys are afraid of rejection too. It takes courage to ask a girl out, especially if you care what she thinks of you. But the difference is, a confident guy goes into it assuming she'll say yes. And when she says no, if he respects her he'll accept that even if he doesn't like it.

EDIT: Another aspect of confidence is having opinions of your own. Don't be so caught up in impressing her that you agree with everything she says. It usually comes across as insincere. If you're confident in yourself, you can be yourself without worrying if she'll like you. (Thanks to Ceric's article below for reminding me of this one)
/EDIT


I say all this from the perspective of one who considered himself a "nice guy" for years, and never got dates. So most of that stuff above, I did. It wasn't until later that I looked back and saw that a lot of the things about me that I thought made me a nice guy actually came across as kind of creepy. It didn't change until I was helping an attractive friend of a friend move into her new apartment. A week later, she asked me out. I had no ulterior motive, and no romantic intentions toward her - and that made the difference. I helped her with no expectation of reward, and she saw that. It was a turning point, because not only did I get a confidence boost, it made me reexamine the reasons for my previous lack of a love life. If I really was attractive enough for a more-or-less stranger to ask me out, what had I been doing wrong before?

And one final disclaimer: "Nice," as I use it in this post, is different from "kind". Kindness is always a good thing, and I encourage everyone to show kindness to everyone they meet. What I rail against is the kind of entitled "nice guy" who thinks he's being kind, but is really being a doormat and/or being nice in hopes of a sexual reward. I heartily subscribe to the maxim, "Don't mistake my kindness for weakness."

This post is everything my own "Nice Guys" post (from back in the day) should have been. I recommend that it be added to (or linked to in) the first post, and I may link to it in my sig if I clear out some space. The only thing I'd possibly consider adding is a note in point #5 of arrogance, and how sometimes it is tricky (for both sexes/people on either side of the wall) to tell the difference between sexy confidence and undesirable arrogance.

Speaking of my old sig-links, I'm thinking of refurbishing my "It Could Be You" list (subject to critique) and adding it again. Thoughts?

[Gitman00]

The only thing I'd possibly consider adding is a note in point #5 of arrogance, and how sometimes it is tricky (for both sexes/people on either side of the wall) to tell the difference between sexy confidence and undesirable arrogance.

Excellent point. Edited accordingly!

[Form]

Playground, how long should one wait before asking for a second date after the first? Is the day right after the date fine? Also, doing this by phone is fine and better than say, facebook, yes?

[Gitman00]

Playground, how long should one wait before asking for a second date after the first? Is the day right after the date fine? Also, doing this by phone is fine and better than say, facebook, yes?

Conventional wisdom says wait a week. If she is into you, I promise she won't lose interest after a week. Any sooner, and you might seem too eager. That can be a turn-off. And yes, phone is definitely better than Facebook.

If she calls you before a week's up, you're good to go.

[Form]

Conventional wisdom says wait a week. If she is into you, I promise she won't lose interest after a week. Any sooner, and you might seem too eager. That can be a turn-off. And yes, phone is definitely better than Facebook.

Seriously, one week? I was expecting something along the lines of a day or two, but a week?

I suppose it does allow for an oppertunity of some casual flirting if I run into her again in the mean time.

If she calls you before a week's up, you're good to go.

It looks like I'm going to be the one that's going to take the initiative, but that's fine.

[Logic]

Playground, how long should one wait before asking for a second date after the first? Is the day right after the date fine? Also, doing this by phone is fine and better than say, facebook, yes?

It has been my experience that it is okay to ask at the end of the first date if both parties think the date went well. If there is any doubt, you should wait a few days (I don't think a week is appropriate, but I don't have much experience dating relative strangers.)

Telephone is usually a better method of communication than facebook, but it also comes down to knowing your audience.

[Gitman00]

Seriously, one week? I was expecting something along the lines of a day or two, but a week?

I suppose it does allow for an oppertunity of some casual flirting if I run into her again in the mean time.

It's one of those things where everyone has their own opinion. Logic's answer is perfectly valid as well. I say wait a week, because it's the timeframe that works in the greatest number of situations. It may be okay to ask after a day or two depending on the girl and on how well the date went, but it's always okay to ask after a week. If she likes you, she won't say, "You waited a whole week? Sorry, you missed your shot." If she does do that, it's a sign she's extremely high-maintenance. Better to get out early.

If you do like each other, it's just that much more time for the anticipation to build.

[dehro]

Also, doing this by phone is fine and better than say, facebook, yes?

anything is better than facebook

[Faulty]

anything is better than facebook

Facebook > texting.

[dehro]

Facebook > texting.

only for breakups.. and then..only for the lol factor for whoever has access

[Maugan Ra]

Hmmm.

I think, from what has been said, I would class myself as a former Nice Guy and I'm working on being a nice guy. I just find it hard to be alone sometimes.

*winces*

Ah, that feels familiar. One of the nastiest shocks of my life was when I looked back in contemplation and realized that I'd been the 'Nice Guy' for so long. Likewise, I've been working on removing the capitals from the description of my behavior, though I still occasionally catch myself doing it.

And I fall firmly on the side of favoring actually speaking to the person involved, either when asking out or breaking up. Then again, I've lived most of my life in a constant sense of vague bafflement when it comes to technology anyway, so it might just be a personal thing.

[The Succubus]

And I fall firmly on the side of favoring actually speaking to the person involved, either when asking out or breaking up. Then again, I've lived most of my life in a constant sense of vague bafflement when it comes to technology anyway, so it might just be a personal thing.

Technology aside, breaking up with anyone should be done face-to-face if at all possible, even if it will involve extreme emotional (and possibly physical discomfort). You loved this person once and they meant the world to you. Breaking up via text/email/wretched Facebook shows a quite outstanding level of callousness.

If it really isn't possible for reasons of distance, write them a letter. The difference with this is that it takes time to write a heartfelt letter, which you can use to explain how you feel.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Also, how are you feeling about getting back into the pool yourself, so to speak? By which I mean look out for other relationsups.

Goodness knows I've been trying, but noone else really seems appealing. Its weird, because I'm usually so quick to bounce back. Then again, I'd never been totally and completely convinced I was gonna marry someone, so there's that, too.
I dunno.

[Aedilred]

Technology aside, breaking up with anyone should be done face-to-face if at all possible, even if it will involve extreme emotional (and possibly physical discomfort). You loved this person once and they meant the world to you. Breaking up via text/email/wretched Facebook shows a quite outstanding level of callousness.

If it really isn't possible for reasons of distance, write them a letter. The difference with this is that it takes time to write a heartfelt letter, which you can use to explain how you feel.

I'd be inclined to go for a phone call over a letter. Obviously, if it's at all possible, it should be done face to face. But a letter, while preferable to a text/email/Facebook message, still feels a bit cowardly. Dear John letters have been a thing for as long as their recipients have been literate, and they've never been considered a particularly satisfactory way of breaking up with someone. A phone call makes it a dialogue, a letter is just a statement of fact.

That said, there are perhaps circumstances where the unequivocal nature of a text-based missive might be preferable to a dialogue involving the other person: if the relationship has been abusive (phyiscally or emotionally) then it might be dangerous to see the other person face-to-face, or it might be that the other person is sufficiently intimidating, even over the phone, that it becomes very difficult to end the relationship while in conversation with them.

[AtlanteanTroll]

There is a point when you go to the friendzone to the ninth layer of the friendzone. Dammit, dammit, dammit. *head-desk* I'm just so confused about what my standing is with people these days. 16 hours ago I was content with not being in a relationship, seeing as a I have a good amount of friends who happen to be cute girls. And now I'm all fuddled up again.