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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    There are some very unfortunate implications that can be drawn, yeah. Especially when you run into the ones who think that getting told that is actually an admission that they're not even friends and she just likes the attention and manipulation he affords.

    Granted, after having to take a machete to my social ties to get rid of a girl who was deliberately setting out to string along as many men like that as she could with false promises of maybe being able to see them differently, and so on, I can see at least some of them having been driven to inhumanity rather than having just having developed that way.

    Might even be hope for some of them if they actually ever get the professional help they need.
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  2. - Top - End - #962
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    That's precisely my problem with it: that it's "they put me in this "friend-only" category" rather than just "they like me but are not interested in me romantically". They may just be different ways of saying the same thing, but I think that the former suggests some very unfortunate things about the psyche of anyone using it.
    Just so I understand what you're saying - it's the people who say they've been friend-zoned that you have a problem with, right?

    If so, I completely understand that. I was only breaking down the definitions so we're on the same page.

    The unspoken implication with the idea of "I've been friend-zoned" is that being a friend is not good enough, and it's not worth having a platonic relationship with someone who's not interested in romance. And that's what is offensive about it - the idea that you're being wronged if the target of your affections doesn't feel the same way.

    But don't judge those folks too harshly. There is bitterness involved because the zonee is still wishing/hoping for romance, however futile it is. Unrequited love sucks! And once the realization sets in that the feelings aren't returned, it's hard to turn off the attraction. So you go on hoping even after the rational part of your brain has told you there's no chance, and you complain about being friend-zoned.

    Like you pointed out, you can't just decide each day who you will and won't be attracted to. That applies to both parties. It's why there are so many romantic comedies where the guy is turned down, but eventually wins her over by his refusal to give up, even though this almost never works in real life (I hate that cliché, by the way ).

    Eventually, most get over the rejection and move on. And most are eventually okay with being a friend. It just takes some longer than others.
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  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    The unspoken implication with the idea of "I've been friend-zoned" is that being a friend is not good enough, and it's not worth having a platonic relationship with someone who's not interested in romance. And that's what is offensive about it - the idea that you're being wronged if the target of your affections doesn't feel the same way.
    On the other hand, unrequited feelings for someone that you're actually close to (I know, I know, assuming actual friendships in the case of people who feel friend-zoned) can be rather painful, especially when one has enough awareness of one's plight to know that it's a choice between squashing one's feelings completely or ceasing to view the other party as even a friend due to said feelings twisting and writhing around in one's mind's guts. My understanding is that it's only the ones who are that in the dark about human nature/inexperienced/super naive or the outright deluded who think they're being wronged, per se, though.

    Even without that belief of being wronged, people do have a natural tendency to resent what they view as the source of something that causes them pain. And the cultural baggage in all of the Western culture that I've been exposed to, and really, most of the non-western culture I've been exposed to, is that being a friend when one has made romantic overtures means that one is considered to be inferior in some more-or-less meaningful way, that one is too unattractive or socially awkward or somehow gave the impression that one was a "nice guy." Yeah, I've actually run into cases where a guy has developed feelings for a girl, asked her out, and had her accuse him of being a piece of slime "nice guy" who only befriended her in order to try to get into her pants when she was desperate and hurt, thankfully only twice so it's rare enough to be dismissed as really weird anecdotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    Eventually, most get over the rejection and move on. And most are eventually okay with being a friend. It just takes some longer than others.
    Maybe. I don't know if there's really ever been any number crunching done, and part of it does depend on whether any romantic overtures were attempted and when the feelings came into play. Most of the relationships that I've had the 'pleasure' of observing which didn't become so unhealthy that they became distant and the friendship died of neglect ended up having the friendship diminish greatly due to having burned off enough feeling or kept enough emotional distance to stave off any kind of false hope growing from platonic intimacy.
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  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    I can see both sides of the issue, because I've been on both sides. I'm not preferring one or the other; both have valid points. I love this discussion, by the way!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    On the other hand, unrequited feelings for someone that you're actually close to (I know, I know, assuming actual friendships in the case of people who feel friend-zoned) can be rather painful, especially when one has enough awareness of one's plight to know that it's a choice between squashing one's feelings completely or ceasing to view the other party as even a friend due to said feelings twisting and writhing around in one's mind's guts.
    Truth. Been there, done that. It sucks hardcore.

    My understanding is that it's only the ones who are that in the dark about human nature/inexperienced/super naive or the outright deluded who think they're being wronged, per se, though.
    I think most wouldn't actually have an explicit thought of, "I'm being wronged". It's a feeling - just subconscious resentment at not getting what you want. Actually, I think that's what you said next...

    Even without that belief of being wronged, people do have a natural tendency to resent what they view as the source of something that causes them pain. And the cultural baggage in all of the Western culture that I've been exposed to, and really, most of the non-western culture I've been exposed to, is that being a friend when one has made romantic overtures means that one is considered to be inferior in some more-or-less meaningful way, that one is too unattractive or socially awkward or somehow gave the impression that one was a "nice guy." Yeah, I've actually run into cases where a guy has developed feelings for a girl, asked her out, and had her accuse him of being a piece of slime "nice guy" who only befriended her in order to try to get into her pants when she was desperate and hurt, thankfully only twice so it's rare enough to be dismissed as really weird anecdotes.
    This is part of what I was trying to get across. Thanks - you said it more clearly.

    Maybe. I don't know if there's really ever been any number crunching done, and part of it does depend on whether any romantic overtures were attempted and when the feelings came into play. Most of the relationships that I've had the 'pleasure' of observing which didn't become so unhealthy that they became distant and the friendship died of neglect ended up having the friendship diminish greatly due to having burned off enough feeling or kept enough emotional distance to stave off any kind of false hope growing from platonic intimacy.
    By "eventually," I mean it usually takes finding another romantic interest. That's what it took for me, anyway. And moving on can mean multiple things. Either you realize there wasn't much of a friendship beyond the romantic attraction and you drift apart, or you fall in love with someone else and become genuine platonic friends, or... well, any number of things. What I'm saying is, most people don't spend the rest of their lives pining for someone who never reciprocated their feelings. It does happen, but it's extremely unhealthy and not very common.
    Last edited by Gitman00; 2012-08-26 at 07:48 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Also entirely possible to just stay single and donate sperm to reproduce.
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  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Also entirely possible to just stay single and donate sperm to reproduce.
    Well, yes, if one can make the cut, but reproduction alone doesn't have much to do with "nice guys" and the friend-zone from what I've heard and what is usually discussed when I've interacted with or lurked in the conversations of such people. Has it come up a lot for you?

    Always seemed more to be a combination of dissatisfaction at the level/kind of emotional intimacy and sexual access.
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  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Well, yes, if one can make the cut, but reproduction alone doesn't have much to do with "nice guys" and the friend-zone from what I've heard and what is usually discussed when I've interacted with or lurked in the conversations of such people. Has it come up a lot for you?

    Always seemed more to be a combination of dissatisfaction at the level/kind of emotional intimacy and sexual access.
    It always comes up around me because I suggest it as a preferable alternative to the emotional distress and drama around dating, relationships, and friendzones.
    Which is to say I completely ignore the existing conversation and its premises because drama is a drag.
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  8. - Top - End - #968
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    I suppose we do all die alone and it can definitely be argued to cause an existential crisis that there's no way to know if those we care about actually care about us in a way that we would find meaningful, but it seems rather curious to go out of one's way to try to alienate people like that by telling them that their fundamental desires are irrelevant or do not exist.

    Why not just walk away or tell them you don't want to hear their silly drama if it's really that much of an issue in your life?
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-08-26 at 09:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  9. - Top - End - #969
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I suppose we do all die alone and it can definitely be argued to cause an existential crisis that there's no way to know if those we care about actually care about us in a way that we would find meaningful, but it seems rather curious to go out of one's way to try to alienate people like that by telling them that their fundamental desires are irrelevant or do not exist.

    Why not just walk away or tell them you don't want to hear their silly drama if it's really that much of an issue in your life?
    Well if they're strangers then sure. People who know me know that my condescension is my way of showing affection. Or something weird like that.
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  10. - Top - End - #970
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Personally, I feel that the definition of "friend zone" provided by Serpentine et. al. is incorrect. That type of friend zone is just a subset of a much larger definition.

    The so called friend zone is any situation in which a potential partner no longer sees you as a potential partner, but still sees you as a friend.

    This could very well be because they have the qualities they seek in a friend but not a romantic partnership, or it could also be because they see things in this person that they are not willing to overcome to start a romantic relationship with (but would work to overcome if one had already started), or that they are unwilling to risk losing someone they see as a great friend if everything goes south in the relationship (whether they think they will be good together or not), or many other situations such as that. It's a shame that the most negative connotation is what is dominating and that it seems to imply blaming the person doing the "friend zoning" in the minds of people.

    For the record, I have actually been in the situation of someone turning me down because she didn't want to risk losing me as a friend, and that was the real reason, not just an excuse. I made my continuing interest clear and kept talking with no pressure on her, and eventually won her over (to use an expression that means overcome the hurdles and show her that we would be good together, not to imply "winning" or owning anyone) and thus overcame the "friend zone".

    Turns out that she was ratchet insane and we no longer talk to each other, but that happened a lot later and is another story entirely.

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  11. - Top - End - #971

    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Honestly, one of the biggest complications in talking about the friend zone is that some people have no understanding what a healthy friendship entails. You have guys who hang on in the hopes that they'll eventually get their chance, one of these days, and you also have girls who like having the hangers-on and can only handle an asymmetric "friendship" where the guy does all the work. It comes down to Reluctance's first law; don't assume that anybody is more self-aware than they absolutely have to be. This is why I make a big deal of realizing when one is not in a healthy friendship, and how to find healthy places as an important first step to finding relationships.

    (Funny story, the bits about which roles are guy roles and which roles are girl roles tend to get a lot fuzzier as people age. That said, there's a reason certain periods are called one's formative years. A rather depressing number of people stick with comfortable habits instead of growing and adapting.)

  12. - Top - End - #972
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    The unspoken implication with the idea of "I've been friend-zoned" is that being a friend is not good enough, and it's not worth having a platonic relationship with someone who's not interested in romance. And that's what is offensive about it - the idea that you're being wronged if the target of your affections doesn't feel the same way.
    that's not how I see the "friendzone".. in my experience, the simple difference between becoming a friend and being friendzoned lies in the feelings that the subject has towards the potential romantic liason.
    one becomes a friend of someone one has no romantic inclinations towards.. one becomes friendzoned when one has unrequited romantic feelings for the object of his interest and those feelings have to take a backseat in the relationship, either because the other person is oblivious to said feelings or because the other person doesn't feel the same way but still wants to be friends.
    There is not an a priori maliciousness to it, nor any evil intent.. it's just one of those things that may happen.
    every relationship has moments when it can go either way, develop into friendship or into romance, or slump into nothingness and casual acquaintance status. When there are romantic feelings on one side, that's when a friendzoning can happen. A guy or girl that wants to pursue romance can do a thing or two to avoid "being friendzoned", making efforts according to the situation, and when those actions don't come to fruition, occasionally, there's some bitterness on the side of whoever "got friendzoned"..
    now if you take the words friend zone out of the equation, these things still occurr and don't really go away... if you dislike the label you can stick another one to it, but it doesn't change the fact that someone who has a crush on someone else sees that crush go ignored and replaced with something that doesn't correspond to how they'd have it if they could have it their way.

    Going from there to assuming that the friendzone has a negative connotation because romance is the only relationship worth pursuing with a woman (or a man..).. is plainly a wrong logic step... possibly borne from the mind of someone with as big a chip on his/her shoulder as the guy/girl who got friendzoned has.
    One should not equate "I don't want to be her friend, I want to be her boyfriend and being a friend when I can't be a boyfriend would only make me suffer pointlessly" with "if I can't get in her panties I have no interest in her"
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  13. - Top - End - #973
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    It comes down to Reluctance's first law; don't assume that anybody is more self-aware than they absolutely have to be.
    There is an awful lot of sense in this. Quite often people develop certain behaviours around others without realising or being only dimly aware of it. It's only when someone actually calls them on it that everything clicks and they realise what they've been doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    But don't judge those folks too harshly. There is bitterness involved because the zonee is still wishing/hoping for romance, however futile it is. Unrequited love sucks! And once the realization sets in that the feelings aren't returned, it's hard to turn off the attraction. So you go on hoping even after the rational part of your brain has told you there's no chance, and you complain about being friend-zoned.
    I'm not judging them on happening to be in some definition of a friend zone*. It happens to everyone. But there's a vast difference between "my love is unrequited, boo hoo, I am sad and will eat ice cream for the rest of my life" - which is a statement I would sympathize with, although not necessarily support - and "how dare these girls keep friend-zoning me, what is wrong with them, women sure are crazy, bro, amirite?". I judge them on taking a basic occurence of life and turning it into blame and/or misogyny. Perhaps* not all aspects of the friend zone devolve into the latter but that's a very common definition to be found, because it's so constantly perpetuated and accepted.

    * It's 3am. I'm too tired to get into that discussion right now

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    Eventually, most get over the rejection and move on. And most are eventually okay with being a friend. It just takes some longer than others.
    Okay, I'll stop judging them when that eventuality occurs. Some may take longer than others.

    ...Really, what I'm hearing from your post is "this thing happens and it makes guys feel bad! Because they feel so bad and there's nothing they can do about it, you have to let them do whatever they want until they're better and never blame them for it!"
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  15. - Top - End - #975
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceric View Post
    ...Really, what I'm hearing from your post is "this thing happens and it makes guys feel bad! Because they feel so bad and there's nothing they can do about it, you have to let them do whatever they want until they're better and never blame them for it!"
    That's not what I'm saying at all. Jeez, I didn't realize I was such a terrible communicator.

    I'm sympathetic to both viewpoints, and I'm doing my best to present both sympathetically. I'm attempting to show what goes on in the heads of both parties in order for both to reach a greater understanding, and relate to each other as human beings. I'm also pretty sure I didn't differentiate between guys and girls, since both sexes can be in either position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceric View Post
    I'm not judging them on happening to be in some definition of a friend zone*. It happens to everyone. But there's a vast difference between "my love is unrequited, boo hoo, I am sad and will eat ice cream for the rest of my life" - which is a statement I would sympathize with, although not necessarily support - and "how dare these girls keep friend-zoning me, what is wrong with them, women sure are crazy, bro, amirite?". I judge them on taking a basic occurence of life and turning it into blame and/or misogyny. Perhaps* not all aspects of the friend zone devolve into the latter but that's a very common definition to be found, because it's so constantly perpetuated and accepted.
    I agree completely (see my post a couple pages back on Nice Guys). So what's the dispute?
    Last edited by Gitman00; 2012-08-27 at 10:12 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #976
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    Going from there to assuming that the friendzone has a negative connotation because romance is the only relationship worth pursuing with a woman (or a man..).. is plainly a wrong logic step... possibly borne from the mind of someone with as big a chip on his/her shoulder as the guy/girl who got friendzoned has.
    One should not equate "I don't want to be her friend, I want to be her boyfriend and being a friend when I can't be a boyfriend would only make me suffer pointlessly" with "if I can't get in her panties I have no interest in her"
    Well, yeah, the person who feels trapped between their feelings and the denial of those feelings is going to think there's some definite negatives to their situation. I didn't think the idea that the only thing worth doing with women was within the confines of a romantic-sexual relationship was very common even amongst people who feel they've been friend-zoned, though.

    Certainly there are some people who see no point in sticking around if their feelings aren't returned or given a chance to see what happens. Can't really blame them as long as they don't couch it in misogyny, though there are those who do so. It's not like the one person's desire for a friendship morally obligates the other person to reciprocate either, especially if one recognizes that it's either not going to be possible or not something that they'd be comfortable contorting their feelings to accommodate.

    Now, if you're talking about friendship being seen as a lesser relationship than a romantic one, that's not really the same thing as seeing a sexual-pair-bond as the only thing worth pursuing. It's just that usually when a man wants to be friends with a woman and she's not interested it's a lot more cut and dried without the interplay of loyalties and the question of what the moral path is and what the path that best preserves one's sanity/well-being is.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-08-27 at 11:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    That's not what I'm saying at all. Jeez, I didn't realize I was such a terrible communicator.

    I'm sympathetic to both viewpoints, and I'm doing my best to present both sympathetically. I'm attempting to show what goes on in the heads of both parties in order for both to reach a greater understanding, and relate to each other as human beings. I'm also pretty sure I didn't differentiate between guys and girls, since both sexes can be in either position.

    I agree completely (see my post a couple pages back on Nice Guys). So what's the dispute?
    ...Okay, I think I got it. The post I quoted sounded, to me, less like a presentation of both viewpoints (although I did get that a viewpoint was being presented), and more like a statement of facts (being a friend is not good enough, etc) and advice (don't judge them too harshly) in approximate favor of Nice Guys. (Parentheses!) And I responded as such.

    Basically, we've said "This perception exists." "No, this perception is bad." "Yes, I agree it's bad, I'm just saying it exists." I think?

    And with no dispute to be found, I'm going to back out now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceric View Post

    ...Really, what I'm hearing from your post is "this thing happens and it makes guys feel bad! Because they feel so bad and there's nothing they can do about it, you have to let them do whatever they want until they're better and never blame them for it!"
    You're not forced to maintain a friendship with anyone. If you reject the advances of a male friend, there isn't a law stating that you have to remain friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceric View Post
    And with no dispute to be found, I'm going to back out now
    Aww, it was just getting interesting too.



    Now normally I wouldn't just post something that I found while trawling through the seedy underbelly of the internet to see where I can end up from links from facebook, but...

    This did seem somewhat topical, haha. So.... Thoughts, anyone?
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-08-27 at 02:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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  20. - Top - End - #980
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceric View Post
    ...Okay, I think I got it. The post I quoted sounded, to me, less like a presentation of both viewpoints (although I did get that a viewpoint was being presented), and more like a statement of facts (being a friend is not good enough, etc) and advice (don't judge them too harshly) in approximate favor of Nice Guys. (Parentheses!) And I responded as such.
    Ah, okay, I think I see the misunderstanding. The first part ("The unspoken implication...") was supposed to be in favor of your (and Serpentine's) point of view - i.e. Yes, it's wrong for someone to sulk and be resentful that their feelings aren't returned, and you're right to not be okay with that. Basically saying "This is what the perception is, and this is how it comes across, and why it's offensive." In other words, I'm disagreeing with the position I'm describing.

    The second part ("Don't judge...") was supposed to illustrate why the behavior is there, and point out that it's not usually malicious, but more often just pain from the unrequited feelings.

    Basically, we've said "This perception exists." "No, this perception is bad." "Yes, I agree it's bad, I'm just saying it exists." I think?

    And with no dispute to be found, I'm going to back out now
    Yep, that seems about right.

    No worries. I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion - I just don't want to be misunderstood. Especially if it means I'm coming across as a misogynistic douche.
    Last edited by Gitman00; 2012-08-27 at 02:25 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #981
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy13a View Post
    You're not forced to maintain a friendship with anyone. If you reject the advances of a male friend, there isn't a law stating that you have to remain friends.
    No, but generally the issue is that because friends have some kind of emotional attachment between them, the rejecting party usually retains those platonic feelings for the rejected party, which often causes the rejected party to feel led on or "friendzoned".
    I'm around people who are occasionally mature enough to maintain friendships and eventually get over their crushes when I don't share their feelings. It's nicer than high school, which was just messy.
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  22. - Top - End - #982
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    So, I just realized something. And this has to do with friendships in general. I can't co-ordinate with people to save save my life. I'd say I've got a near a dozen good friends, and a few handfuls more of less-close friends who I still see and hang out with, which are numbers I'm quite comfortable with. My problem is I can't take the initiative to say, "Hey, X, let's hang out." with the exceptions of a couple of my absolute-closest friends.

    So yeah. How do I ask people to hang out, in a completely platonic way?
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  23. - Top - End - #983
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlanteanTroll View Post
    So, I just realized something. And this has to do with friendships in general. I can't co-ordinate with people to save save my life. I'd say I've got a near a dozen good friends, and a few handfuls more of less-close friends who I still see and hang out with, which are numbers I'm quite comfortable with. My problem is I can't take the initiative to say, "Hey, X, let's hang out." with the exceptions of a couple of my absolute-closest friends.

    So yeah. How do I ask people to hang out, in a completely platonic way?
    I completely understand that. I have the same issue. I'm told you "just call them and ask, 'hey, are you free later? want to do [activity]?'" Putting that into practice is harder.
    An easier way out is to text/email/facebook message them saying, "hey, we should hang out sometime," and then leave the actual planning to them if they do want to hang out sometime.
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  24. - Top - End - #984
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I completely understand that. I have the same issue. I'm told you "just call them and ask, 'hey, are you free later? want to do [activity]?'" Putting that into practice is harder.
    An easier way out is to text/email/facebook message them saying, "hey, we should hang out sometime," and then leave the actual planning to them if they do want to hang out sometime.
    Well, even among my closest friends, that is what I do. Text & FB chat them, that is. It just seems so impersonal though. Not that it doesn't work ...
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  25. - Top - End - #985
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlanteanTroll View Post
    Well, even among my closest friends, that is what I do. Text & FB chat them, that is. It just seems so impersonal though. Not that it doesn't work ...
    Eh, it's only impersonal for a few minutes, and then you see them in person. So it's not that big of a deal, right?
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  26. - Top - End - #986
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    yeah, whatever impersonality there is basically expected due to the brief nature of the communique and is completely OK.
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  27. - Top - End - #987
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Personally, I feel that the definition of "friend zone" provided by Serpentine et. al. is incorrect. That type of friend zone is just a subset of a much larger definition.

    The so called friend zone is any situation in which a potential partner no longer sees you as a potential partner, but still sees you as a friend.
    As I said, "I've been friend-zoned" could just be another way of saying "I fancy my friend but my friend does not fancy me". But for all the latter is a sucky position to be in, the former is an intrinsically negative term, and saying the former, instead of just acknowledging the latter, implies that the person using it is buying into at least some of those negative connotations of the "friendzone": that being a friend is inferior to being a boyfriend; that the "friendzoner" put the friendzonee there, probably consciously; that the friendzoner's brain is compartmentalised into "friend" and "not friend"; that the friendzoner is abusing the friendzonee's friendship by stringing them along; and so on.
    The Friendzone isn't just another way of saying "two friends feel different ways about one another" - if that were so, articles like the one you linked to wouldn't lean so heavily on it, and we wouldn't have people coming in here going "so I've met this pretty cool girl. How do I avoid being friendzoned?" It's a way of assigning blame for the disparity of feelings, and turning oneself into a wronged party. Insisting that it's merely synonymous is missing the nub of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlanteanTroll View Post
    So, I just realized something. And this has to do with friendships in general. I can't co-ordinate with people to save save my life. I'd say I've got a near a dozen good friends, and a few handfuls more of less-close friends who I still see and hang out with, which are numbers I'm quite comfortable with. My problem is I can't take the initiative to say, "Hey, X, let's hang out." with the exceptions of a couple of my absolute-closest friends.

    So yeah. How do I ask people to hang out, in a completely platonic way?
    If you mean on an informal basis - as opposed to organising a party or a night out or something like that, that requires proper coordination and numbers and the like - I would tend to just send out a message (text, facebook) to pretty much everyone I know saying "I will be doing Thing at Place and Time, if anyone would like to join me". Usually I got about 3 friends along.

  28. - Top - End - #988
    Loving the Smell of Bat Guano in the Morning Administrator
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    There's a lot in there which needs to be addressed individually, so, without further ado:

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    *snipped and used below*
    As I said, "I've been friend-zoned" could just be another way of saying "I fancy my friend but my friend does not fancy me".

    But so many of the posts of you and others are dismissing this and all the other definitions, and lumping them with the worst possible. This makes it nigh impossible for anyone to even mention it without being accused of misogyny/whatever.

    But for all the latter is a sucky position to be in, the former is an intrinsically negative term, and saying the former, instead of just acknowledging the latter, implies that the person using it is buying into at least some of those negative connotations of the "friendzone": that being a friend is inferior to being a boyfriend;

    To someone who wants to be a boy/girlfriend, it is.

    that the "friendzoner" put the friendzonee there, probably consciously;

    And you're saying that deciding someone is a friend and will be nothing more isn't putting someone in a category in the same way?

    that the friendzoner's brain is compartmentalised into "friend" and "not friend";

    More accurately, friend and nothing more than friend, and potential romantic interest. Not compartments, but classifications, decisions, feelings.

    that the friendzoner is abusing the friendzonee's friendship by stringing them along; and so on.

    Nothing implies that. Nothing at all.

    The Friendzone isn't just another way of saying "two friends feel different ways about one another" - if that were so, articles like the one you linked to wouldn't lean so heavily on it,

    I haven't linked to any articles.

    and we wouldn't have people coming in here going "so I've met this pretty cool girl. How do I avoid being friendzoned?"

    That's a way to ask, how do I ensure that she doesn't decide that I'm a friend and will be nothing more than a friend.

    It's a way of assigning blame for the disparity of feelings, and turning oneself into a wronged party. Insisting that it's merely synonymous is missing the nub of it.

    There's no inherent assigning of "blame" in the term. It's acknowledgement that the other party sees them as a friend and only a friend and, almost ironically, the things they did which helped solidify that classification in their minds.

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  29. - Top - End - #989
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    There is a worse thing than being seen as somebody's friend - and that is not being seen by them at all.

    (Not directed at anyone - but a useful fact to remember. It helps me sometimes.)

  30. - Top - End - #990
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    From what I hear loads of people go from "friends" to "best friends" to "dating" to "married with kids". So friendzoning is more of a challenge than a rejection. (Phrased that way the concept should appeal more to guys, men like challenges.)
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