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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    There is a worse thing than being seen as somebody's friend - and that is not being seen by them at all.

    (Not directed at anyone - but a useful fact to remember. It helps me sometimes.)
    To some people, yes. To others, depending upon the relationship and time scale involved, it's better to be clear in one's intentions and not linger if one's interest is not reciprocated or if one knows that being around them is just going to cause them longer, lingering pain when not seeing them at all would produce a more intense shorter term pain in favor of being more free to move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    From what I hear loads of people go from "friends" to "best friends" to "dating" to "married with kids". So friendzoning is more of a challenge than a rejection. (Phrased that way the concept should appeal more to guys, men like challenges.)
    On the other hand, men don't like being considered creepy and sexual harassment is pretty creepy and encouraging men to continue pursuit of women who have already said no and who continue to say no is one of those things that can lead to bad places.

    Or at least people are convinced would do so, so close enough.

    That does tie back into the problem of people saying no either when they don't actually mean no or when they haven't considered it at all and it's just a knee-jerk reaction which leads to frustration in communication between the sexes where men see people who do not respect when a woman says no prospering and being loved for it when at the same time they're also bombarded by anti-rape PSAs reminding them continually that continuing pursuit when a woman says no is verboten.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-08-27 at 06:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    But so many of the posts of you and others are dismissing this and all the other definitions, and lumping them with the worst possible. This makes it nigh impossible for anyone to even mention it without being accused of misogyny/whatever.
    If someone wants to use the loaded "friend zone" instead of the honest "I like someone who doesn't like me", they should be aware of the connotations.
    [QUOTE=Rawhide;13797660]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Nothing implies that. Nothing at all.
    Look up friend zone memes. It is everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I haven't linked to any articles.
    Sorry, got you mixed up with Coidzor. But that's a good example of the sort of attitude the "friend zone" is part of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    There's no inherent assigning of "blame" in the term.
    All I can do is disagree. I can't articulate exactly what it is about the term that makes it so, though. Maybe someone else can cover it for me.

  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    To some people, yes. To others, depending upon the relationship and time scale involved, it's better to be clear in one's intentions and not linger if one's interest is not reciprocated or if one knows that being around them is just going to cause them longer, lingering pain when not seeing them at all would produce a more intense shorter term pain in favor of being more free to move on.
    You make a good point. I think it is more useful to the hopelessly romantic sorts or the long time resident of the "friend zone". Think about why you are drawn to that person. I'd be willing to bet it's not just out of physical attractiveness but it's because they're a sweet, kind person and when you hang out as friends you have an amazing time together. Cutting out something that special to save yourself heartache...it seems a waste.

    However, don't think I cannot empathise with a person that takes your option Coidzor, because I really, *really* can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas-Dakota View Post
    Succubus gets grongratulatory cookies from me. You have stepped into the realm of puns that only the likes of Death, Your Friend the Reaper have seen.

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  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    On the other hand, men don't like being considered creepy and sexual harassment is pretty creepy and encouraging men to continue pursuit of women who have already said no and who continue to say no is one of those things that can lead to bad places.

    Or at least people are convinced would do so, so close enough.

    That does tie back into the problem of people saying no either when they don't actually mean no or when they haven't considered it at all and it's just a knee-jerk reaction which leads to frustration in communication between the sexes where men see people who do not respect when a woman says no prospering and being loved for it when at the same time they're also bombarded by anti-rape PSAs reminding them continually that continuing pursuit when a woman says no is verboten.
    You don't need to be creepy or sexually harass a woman to continue to be a good friend and leave the option open to her, do you? Because I'm pretty sure that the stories I was referring to did not happen by the guy being a sexually harassing creep.
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  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    From what I hear loads of people go from "friends" to "best friends" to "dating" to "married with kids". So friendzoning is more of a challenge than a rejection. (Phrased that way the concept should appeal more to guys, men like challenges.)
    And I've gone from friend to more than friend many times. I even described going from "friend zoned" to more than a friend in an earlier post on the topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    If someone wants to use the loaded "friend zone" instead of the honest "I like someone who doesn't like me", they should be aware of the connotations.
    Given that so many people do use it in non-negative ways, it would be better to acknowledge that there is more than such a narrow interpretation and then ascertain what the person means. Only the most vocal tend to use it in the negative ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Look up friend zone memes. It is everywhere.
    So are pictures of cats with bad grammar. So are pictures of a guy with the caption "Woah. We have a badass over here." despite the fact that he never said that, so are soundbites and out of context quotes of many public figures. Memes often take on the most extreme or absurd example and run with it, to the exclusion of all else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Sorry, got you mixed up with Coidzor. But that's a good example of the sort of attitude the "friend zone" is part of.
    I've never said that no one would use the term to mean something negative, just like just about any term can be applied negatively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    All I can do is disagree. I can't articulate exactly what it is about the term that makes it so, though. Maybe someone else can cover it for me.
    I would really like to know how a shorthand term for "due to the things I have done in the interactions I have had with him/her he/she now thinks of me as a friend and nothing more than a friend and, while it is not impossible for me to change his/her mind, it will be extremely difficult and if I'm not careful I could come off as creepy, harassing, or undesirable as even a friend" is inherently "blaming" of the other person.

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  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    You make a good point. I think it is more useful to the hopelessly romantic sorts or the long time resident of the "friend zone". Think about why you are drawn to that person. I'd be willing to bet it's not just out of physical attractiveness but it's because they're a sweet, kind person and when you hang out as friends you have an amazing time together. Cutting out something that special to save yourself heartache...it seems a waste.

    However, don't think I cannot empathise with a person that takes your option Coidzor, because I really, *really* can.
    Well, I wouldn't really call it my option, exactly, since I've usually had the decision made for me to break off contact when I've asked out an acquaintance or friend and been rejected, haha.

    And the one time I got "friend-zoned" that I can recall, it was because I got beaten out by another woman and a move rather than her not seeing me that way. And I chose to keep up the relationship due to the distance already being enough to keep from getting overly attached, or so I thought, and then once I did get overly attached it naturally facilitated getting over my ex-fiance finally before the distance helped lead to ceasing to be overly attached after I asked her for a bit of space so I didn't somehow start stalking her from across the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    You don't need to be creepy or sexually harass a woman to continue to be a good friend and leave the option open to her, do you? Because I'm pretty sure that the stories I was referring to did not happen by the guy being a sexually harassing creep.
    Well, I just keep thinking of situations like this comic that I think you might have linked in the LGBT thread. I dunno. :/

    It's mostly that communicating to the group of men as a whole is diffferent from advocating nuance to a particular case and then there's something niggling that I can't quite name directly, but that calls to mind the SNL skit from the 90s (I think) about sexual harassment and you where the main message was to be handsome and don't be unattractive.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-08-27 at 06:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #997

    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    You don't need to be creepy or sexually harass a woman to continue to be a good friend and leave the option open to her, do you? Because I'm pretty sure that the stories I was referring to did not happen by the guy being a sexually harassing creep.
    Constantly mooning over somebody who doesn't reciprocate your feelings is, at the very least, rather odd. Constantly dropping hints to somebody who isn't interested is creepy, and falls very close to the textbook definition of sexual harassment. That's not to say there aren't friends I wouldn't bone if given half a chance. Just that implicit in the friendship is the understanding that it probably won't ever happen, and being cool with that.

    More to the point, you used the word "challenge". I really can't read "see escaping the friendzone as a challenge" without it coming across as "win the girl over despite her stated disinterest". The whole concept of "win the girl" is bad on so many levels to begin with (you land a date by being somebody that she wants to date, not by racking up enough points to cash in for the prize), and the whole thing smacks of something out of a romcom more than any human interaction.

  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    Constantly mooning over somebody who doesn't reciprocate your feelings is, at the very least, rather odd. Constantly dropping hints to somebody who isn't interested is creepy, and falls very close to the textbook definition of sexual harassment. That's not to say there aren't friends I wouldn't bone if given half a chance. Just that implicit in the friendship is the understanding that it probably won't ever happen, and being cool with that.

    More to the point, you used the word "challenge". I really can't read "see escaping the friendzone as a challenge" without it coming across as "win the girl over despite her stated disinterest". The whole concept of "win the girl" is bad on so many levels to begin with (you land a date by being somebody that she wants to date, not by racking up enough points to cash in for the prize), and the whole thing smacks of something out of a romcom more than any human interaction.
    Okay maybe that was a bad route to take because men also tend to see challenges as active things that win results right now.
    You don't have to moon, or drop hints. If you've confessed once, they know, and if you then act totally normal, you're not going to seem creepy or anything. Yeah, being a close friend (who doesn't flirt constantly) will not always lead to romance, but for some people it apparently does.

    Perhaps I should leave my opinions out because my experience with all of this stuff is as the friendzoner who never later falls for the friendzonee and I'm just making all this stuff up based on one or two cases I've witnessed.
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  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I would really like to know how a shorthand term for "due to the things I have done in the interactions I have had with him/her he/she now thinks of me as a friend and nothing more than a friend and, while it is not impossible for me to change his/her mind, it will be extremely difficult and if I'm not careful I could come off as creepy, harassing, or undesirable as even a friend" is inherently "blaming" of the other person.
    It is rarely, if ever, used like that. It's more often more like "despite me being great boy/girlfriend material he/she has decided that I am not - well, not for him/her; we will therefore continue to be friends despite me being dissatisfied with this unequal relationship until I can figure out a way to change their mind".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    It is rarely, if ever, used like that. It's more often more like "despite me being great boy/girlfriend material he/she has decided that I am not - well, not for him/her; we will therefore continue to be friends despite me being dissatisfied with this unequal relationship until I can figure out a way to change their mind".
    So the problem isn't with the word, it's with the whiny people who use it in an accusatory fashion instead of moving on. (I apologise for this also sounding accusatory. Moving on is harder than P-chem and a history class in the same semester, which may well kill me screw over my shiny new transfer-GPA.)
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    It is rarely, if ever, used like that. It's more often more like "despite me being great boy/girlfriend material he/she has decided that I am not - well, not for him/her; we will therefore continue to be friends despite me being dissatisfied with this unequal relationship until I can figure out a way to change their mind".
    I've had the opposite experience. Most of the time it simply means what I've described. I think you might be mixing the terms "friend zone" and "Nice GuyTM" (another term I have some issues with, but let's not go there yet) in with each other.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Argh, why can't I adequately explain what it is that's so offensive about doing a search for "friendzone" and finding scores and scores of results on "avoiding the Friend Zone" and "how to escape the Friend Zone" and "being trapped in the Friend Zone" and "Friend Zone Fiona"? If you want to dismiss the latter as "just a joke", then I recommend reading through the comments on some of those memes. I suppose the Urban Dictionary entry might help, and the Ladder Theory (Friend Zone by another name).
    And yeah, the Friend Zone is fairly closely tied to Nice Guys: Nice Guys get Friendzoned.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Okay maybe that was a bad route to take because men also tend to see challenges as active things that win results right now.
    You don't have to moon, or drop hints. If you've confessed once, they know, and if you then act totally normal, you're not going to seem creepy or anything. Yeah, being a close friend (who doesn't flirt constantly) will not always lead to romance, but for some people it apparently does.
    The problem is that if you really like somebody, turning your emotions off isn't something you're able to do. If you really want more, you're going to really want more, and you're not necessarily going to be able to hide it well. Which is a big part of what makes this all such a complicated mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    It is rarely, if ever, used like that. It's more often more like "despite me being great boy/girlfriend material he/she has decided that I am not - well, not for him/her; we will therefore continue to be friends despite me being dissatisfied with this unequal relationship until I can figure out a way to change their mind".
    Most of the time when I see it, it's an expression of frustration. The person is told that they're a great catch, does everything that they're told to do, and face the same form of rejection over and over. There's a strong element of frustration, and that frustration does ooze over to women in general (see my comments about repeated rejection being a breeding ground for unhealthy feelings), but the ultimate beef is that the strategies fail to work.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    I finally worked up the courage to ask out this incredibly attractive girl I know who is moving away in several days. I figured that it's the last opportunity I'd have to proven myself not craven, so why the hell not, right? Much to my surprise she accepted and seemed really excited about it. We planned to get dinner on the water at a semi-fancy type restaurant in the downtown area, and were texting casually for about the last week.

    We were supposed to meet at 6pm. It's 8:13pm. I think she stood me up.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    This did seem somewhat topical, haha. So.... Thoughts, anyone?
    I'm honestly surprised he even gives her a name instead of just calling her "The 9"

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Argh, why can't I adequately explain what it is that's so offensive about doing a search for "friendzone" and finding scores and scores of results on "avoiding the Friend Zone" and "how to escape the Friend Zone" and "being trapped in the Friend Zone" and "Friend Zone Fiona"? If you want to dismiss the latter as "just a joke", then I recommend reading through the comments on some of those memes. I suppose the Urban Dictionary entry might help, and the Ladder Theory (Friend Zone by another name).
    And yeah, the Friend Zone is fairly closely tied to Nice Guys: Nice Guys get Friendzoned.
    Let's break down what these things actually mean.


    "avoiding the Friend Zone"

    I'm getting to know this person/these people. How do I go about doing my best to ensure that they see that I am interested in them, that I might be a good romantic interest, instead of them thinking I am not interested and losing any potential interest they may have had in me?


    "how to escape the Friend Zone"

    I know this person that I am really interested in. Unfortunately, we've known each other for a rather long time and I fear that they may think of me as only a friend and not have any interest in anything more than a friendship. How would I go about showing this person that I am interested while giving me the best possible chance to attract them to the possiblity of a relationship that is more than just friends, without coming off as creepy, harassing them, or losing their friendship because of my interest?


    "being trapped in the Friend Zone"

    I have spent a lot of time with this person and I really like them. I wish that they would see me as a potential romantic partner, but it seems that the things I have done have put me in a position where I like them but they do not like me more than a friend. Having this one sided crush is terrible and I don't know what to do about it.


    "Friend Zone Fiona"

    Is that like any of the other terrible "troll face" memes?

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mud View Post
    I finally worked up the courage to ask out this incredibly attractive girl I know who is moving away in several days. I figured that it's the last opportunity I'd have to proven myself not craven, so why the hell not, right? Much to my surprise she accepted and seemed really excited about it. We planned to get dinner on the water at a semi-fancy type restaurant in the downtown area, and were texting casually for about the last week.

    We were supposed to meet at 6pm. It's 8:13pm. I think she stood me up.
    Oh man, that sucks. Did she respond in any way when you tried to contact her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    The problem is that if you really like somebody, turning your emotions off isn't something you're able to do. If you really want more, you're going to really want more, and you're not necessarily going to be able to hide it well. Which is a big part of what makes this all such a complicated mess.
    Like I said, moving on or even pretending to is really hard. I get that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mud View Post
    I finally worked up the courage to ask out this incredibly attractive girl I know who is moving away in several days. I figured that it's the last opportunity I'd have to proven myself not craven, so why the hell not, right? Much to my surprise she accepted and seemed really excited about it. We planned to get dinner on the water at a semi-fancy type restaurant in the downtown area, and were texting casually for about the last week.

    We were supposed to meet at 6pm. It's 8:13pm. I think she stood me up.
    Well, that stinks. Sympathies. Hopefully she calls and has some good excuse, though I guess planning another date in a few days to make up for it won't work out. It's also possible she panicked and decided a date right before moving away would be too hard to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    "Friend Zone Fiona"

    Is that like any of the other terrible "troll face" memes?
    I think technically it's an "Advice Animal" meme whereas trollface and stuff are "rage comics" or something.
    Yes, yes it is like the other terrible memes.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    @ Iruka, noparlpf: I haven't heard anything from her yet. I might give her a call in about an hour to make sure she didn't get in like a car crash or something.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Rawhide: I've run out of ways to try to explain it to you. All I've got left is that what you're doing there is basically like saying that a wolf whistle just means "dear lady, I find you quite attractive and would like to make you aware of that fact" and "dat ass" is just a succinct way of saying "I admire your physical condition, kudos on staying in shape". It might be true, in a manner of speaking, but it's missing the attitude behind choosing those words.
    I'll have to let someone else explain it better, cuz I obviously can't manage it.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mud View Post
    @ Iruka, noparlpf: I haven't heard anything from her yet. I might give her a call in about an hour to make sure she didn't get in like a car crash or something.
    I'd probably do that too. Though I'm not a good source of advice and I don't know your relationship at all but I wonder whether that falls into the "coming-on-too-strong" category. Anybody?
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    I don't think so. She missed an appointment, so if there wasn't a good reason for it then I don't think she has any right to be annoyed that he'd follow up on it, and checking she's okay is a pretty good thing to do.
    I hope that there was a very good reason, she's very apologetic, and she's okay.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    "Friend Zone Fiona"

    Is that like any of the other terrible "troll face" memes?
    It might be a reference to a woman who deliberately sets about putting guys into the friend zone but giving them just enough hope when they seem like they get disillusioned with her to keep stringing them along like a whole bunch of sugar daddies that don't even get the dubious pleasure of having sex with her on occasion.

    Far-fetched, I know, but I've seen at least one woman do that. What's really weird was when she somehow put her fiance into the friendzone by sleeping with as much of the town as she could except for him and her gaggle of neutered admirers, but wouldn't let them break up either... So it's something above and beyond that, really, haha. x.x
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  24. - Top - End - #1014
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I'd probably do that too. Though I'm not a good source of advice and I don't know your relationship at all but I wonder whether that falls into the "coming-on-too-strong" category. Anybody?
    Yeah I was thinking that, but then though that if she gets turned off on me because I called her to make sure all's well after she didn't show up to an obligation, maybe I should fine another date. Just my two cents.
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  25. - Top - End - #1015
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Friendzoning sucks. I've been in the friend zone, and when you have unrequited feelings for someone, and that someone seems to be hinting at the possibility of something more, yet never takes that next step, it can be frustrating.

    The "Friend-zone" is partially a miscommunication. Both parties have some fault in perpetuation the situation.

    The person in the friend-zone needs to take no for an answer and move on because the other party has no intention of pursuing anything beyond friendship.

    The person that has placed the other person in the friend zone should stop taking advantage of the extra niceties their friend gives them, as this only seems to encourage the behavior, and get the hopes up of the rejected friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    I don't think so. She missed an appointment, so if there wasn't a good reason for it then I don't think she has any right to be annoyed that he'd follow up on it, and checking she's okay is a pretty good thing to do.
    I hope that there was a very good reason, she's very apologetic, and she's okay.
    Yeah, okay, so my first instinct worked better.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mud View Post
    Yeah I was thinking that, but then though that if she gets turned off on me because I called her to make sure all's well after she didn't show up to an obligation, maybe I should fine another date. Just my two cents.
    I'd be surprised if you hadn't tried calling her sometime sooner than after 2 hours though, I admit. Isn't the usual etiquette somewhere in the 15 to 30 minute after agreed upon rendezvous time range? And that's if you're not actively having to coordinate to find one another at the location/give directions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  28. - Top - End - #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I'd be surprised if you hadn't tried calling her sometime sooner than after 2 hours though, I admit. Isn't the usual etiquette somewhere in the 15 to 30 minute after agreed upon rendezvous time range? And that's if you're not actively having to coordinate to find one another at the location/give directions.
    Yeah, true. I'd have called after about fifteen minutes to make sure I wasn't lost. But then I'm the world's worst navigator. Two GPS's (gah how do you make that plural?), a map, a compass, a sextant, and a local guide, would not stop me getting lost.
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  29. - Top - End - #1019
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I'd be surprised if you hadn't tried calling her sometime sooner than after 2 hours though, I admit. Isn't the usual etiquette somewhere in the 15 to 30 minute after agreed upon rendezvous time range? And that's if you're not actively having to coordinate to find one another at the location/give directions.
    I texted her a couple times since I'm not big on the whole calling/driving thing, but yeah, I see what you're mean.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I'd probably do that too. Though I'm not a good source of advice and I don't know your relationship at all but I wonder whether that falls into the "coming-on-too-strong" category. Anybody?
    If I got the times right, Mr. Mud already waited for about three hours for her to show up. Calling her and asking where the hell she is definitely doesn't fall into "coming on too strong". After all she agreed to the date and he would expect her to show up.
    When someone misses an appointment (be it a date or something else), I'd call them after 15-30 minutes, depending on the exact situation. In return I'd expect the other party to inform me about delays greater than ~ 15 minutes. Assuming of course they have a convenient way of doing so.

    edit: This world moves too fast for me.
    Last edited by Iruka; 2012-08-27 at 08:41 PM.

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