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  1. - Top - End - #1021
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Rawhide: I've run out of ways to try to explain it to you. All I've got left is that what you're doing there is basically like saying that a wolf whistle just means "dear lady, I find you quite attractive and would like to make you aware of that fact" and "dat ass" is just a succinct way of saying "I admire your physical condition, kudos on staying in shape". It might be true, in a manner of speaking, but it's missing the attitude behind choosing those words.
    I'll have to let someone else explain it better, cuz I obviously can't manage it.
    You see, this I disagree with. In your example, you're specifically talking about a remark, in public, from one person to another, which states "I appreciate you for your physical qualities" to/from a person that you don't know, showing that it is purely about physical attractiveness and implying that they are objects to be admired - and it is almost exclusively used in this way.

    Whereas, in the previous situation, the conversation is between the person in the situation and the people he or she is asking for help and is often used in ways that are not at all sexist or blaming. There are some who do use it in that way, but that is far from the whole story. Ultimately, I'm saying that it is not inherently what you claim, nor is it generally used this way in my experience, only that a very vocal group uses it that way and hijacks it.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Mud: What exactly happened? Did you hang out at the restaurant for three hours? Was she supposed to get in touch with you before the get-together and didn't? I'm vague on the specifics.

    Because it sounds to me like you did text her to give her a heads up, and did wait there for a while. In which case, if she didn't show, it's either a cruel joke or her being prone to cold feet. Calling her to try and set another something up will most likely leave you open to more of the same.

    Ball's in her court. If she calls and has a good reason, reschedule. If she doesn't, she's implicitly telling you exactly how much effort she thinks you're worth.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Ultimately, I'm saying that it is not inherently what you claim, only that a very vocal group uses it that way and hijacks it.
    Well, depending upon reality and one's perceptions of it, it could be that a very vocal group came up with it out of bitterness and some level of misogyny and frustration and it's been co-opted for slightly less objectionable use since then because it's considered to be a somewhat useful shorthand and the identity of the term is still... coalescing? Evolving?
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  4. - Top - End - #1024
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Well, depending upon reality and one's perceptions of it, it could be that a very vocal group came up with it out of bitterness and some level of misogyny and frustration and it's been co-opted for slightly less objectionable use since then because it's considered to be a somewhat useful shorthand and the identity of the term is still... coalescing? Evolving?
    That's what I think: people use it with all its blamey connotations, and then when they're called on it load it up with qualifiers and "what I actually meant was..."

    First known expression of the Friend Zone is pretty benign, and sorta involves useful advice (for Friends...), but still has all that "you're stuck there! Trapped forever!" crap.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    That's what I think: people use it with all its blamey connotations, and then when they're called on it load it up with qualifiers and "what I actually meant was..."

    First known expression of the Friend Zone is pretty benign, and sorta involves useful advice (for Friends...), but still has all that "you're stuck there! Trapped forever!" crap.
    Have you ever BEEN in the "friend zone" (I know you don't like the term, but it's the quickest way to sum up the concept)? 90%+ of the time, you ARE stuck there forever. Yea, you still have a friend, but when you like someone and they don't like you back, it sucks. Period. Hanging out with them becomes bittersweet at best, and ****ty at worst.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    You're not "stuck". Either you've asked them out and been knocked back, in which case they're not interested in you and you need to deal with it and move on (which, yes, sucks, but you're not "stuck", you just need to learn how to deal with rejection), or you haven't made your move, in which case chances are they're not even aware of your interest and you need to either get on with it or decide you're not going to and move on (which, yes, can be scary or difficult, but you're not "stuck", you just need to make a decision). Either way, you're not "trapped in teh Friend Zone!"; the resolution lies in YOUR hands, not theirs, and the only one "keeping you there" is yourself.
    Last edited by Serpentine; 2012-08-27 at 11:07 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #1027
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    You're not "stuck". Either you've asked them out and been knocked back, in which case they're not interested in you and you need to deal with it and move on (which, yes, sucks, but you're not "stuck", you just need to learn how to deal with rejection), or you haven't made your move, in which case chances are they're not even aware of your interest and you need to either get on with it or decide you're not going to and move on (which, yes, can be scary or difficult, but you're not "stuck", you just need to make a decision). Either way, you're not "trapped in teh Friend Zone!"; the resolution lies in YOUR hands, not theirs, and the only one "keeping you there" is yourself.
    The point I think that is trying to be made is that the relationship the rejected person wants cannot move forward without both parties agreeing to move forward. That won't happen if the uninterested party has said "But I like you too much as a friend!"

    Can the uninterested friend change his/her mind? Yes. But, if the uninterested friend implies that he/she may change his/her mind in order to squeeze out a few more favors from the interested friend (this has happened to me with a few manipulative women) then the uninterested friend is just as in the wrong as the interested friend.

    Being single when you are desperately attracted to a person that does not return your feelings is really tough. It's a similar feeling to your significant other breaking up with you (and you don't feel anger towards the other person.)
    Last edited by Logic; 2012-08-28 at 04:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    People are only in the "friend zone" if they want to be. If being "stuck" in a platonic relationship with someone who refuses to be romantically involved with you if too painful, then there is an easy solution: stop being friends with them. Sometimes, a total break-off is best.

    Further, only make friends with people if you want to make friends with them. If you want to date someone, then ask them out on a date. Don't try to be their friend first and then try to change things up.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy13a View Post
    If you want to date someone, then ask them out on a date. Don't try to be their friend first and then try to change things up.
    The problem is, there are several narratives - and several people heavily invested in said narratives - selling exactly that message. Which gives you a lot of people doing things that flatly don't work because they keep being told that they will.

    Of course, going down that line of thinking also raises the question of just what does work. Which is something that can easily ignite flame wars.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    The problem is, there are several narratives - and several people heavily invested in said narratives - selling exactly that message. Which gives you a lot of people doing things that flatly don't work because they keep being told that they will.

    Of course, going down that line of thinking also raises the question of just what does work. Which is something that can easily ignite flame wars.
    Well, sooner or later--at least from a male hetereosexual perspective--you're going to have to ask the girl out. If you do it sooner, then if you're rejected you don't have as much emotional investment.

    So, it is generally better not to become friends first. Thus, the "backdoor" from friendship into a romantic relationship shouldn't be one's strategy. Of course, things get complicated if you become attracted (as in wanting a romantic relationship, not just simple physical attraction) to the person after you've become friends. But that's a different story.
    .

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy13a View Post
    People are only in the "friend zone" if they want to be. If being "stuck" in a platonic relationship with someone who refuses to be romantically involved with you if too painful, then there is an easy solution: stop being friends with them. Sometimes, a total break-off is best.
    That doesn't work so well if you belong to the same friendship circles.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quick question for y'all, a curiosity thing rather than all the friendzone stuff that's bashing its head against the wall:

    How do you tell the difference between crushing, love, and infatuation?
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    I would class it as the following:

    Crushing - "Gosh, he/she is really, really gorgeous. I'd definitely be interested in a little NSA HFT with them..."

    Infatuation - Wistful sighing and daydreaming about that person. A lot of your thought processes revolve around that person.

    Love - Both of the above, together with being highly aware of how that person makes you feel good about being you.

    EDIT: I think I can boil it down further than that:

    Crushing is physical attraction. Infatuation is mental attraction. Love is the emotional bond that results from the combination of the two above. The three can be mixed in various amounts.
    Last edited by The Succubus; 2012-08-28 at 04:13 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #1034
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Castaras View Post
    Quick question for y'all, a curiosity thing rather than all the friendzone stuff that's bashing its head against the wall:

    How do you tell the difference between crushing, love, and infatuation?
    Time, mostly.

    Though I know that if I feel like it'll make me violently ill, that's generally some serious infatuation, because my body gets all torn up over such inappropriate feelings. Granted, sometimes love makes my insides churn like there's a serpent crushing my kidneys and liver in its coils.

    If I feel intense existential dread then it's usually love or a crush.

    Whether I find myself building up the other person as more awesome than they are is also a fairly good indication of something fishy going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy13a View Post
    People are only in the "friend zone" if they want to be. If being "stuck" in a platonic relationship with someone who refuses to be romantically involved with you if too painful, then there is an easy solution: stop being friends with them. Sometimes, a total break-off is best.

    Further, only make friends with people if you want to make friends with them. If you want to date someone, then ask them out on a date. Don't try to be their friend first and then try to change things up.
    Sometimes you don't know exactly what to make of someone and are doing the dance of just getting to know them from Adam for a bit before one decides.

    The only people I know of who advocate becoming friends first are the people who feel that they have to be friends with someone first before they can become attracted to someone else in a meaningful way and people who think that being a "nice guy" can work out for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logic View Post
    Can the uninterested friend change his/her mind? Yes. But, if the uninterested friend implies that he/she may change his/her mind in order to squeeze out a few more favors from the interested friend (this has happened to me from by a few manipulative women) then the uninterested friend is just as in the wrong as the interested friend.
    Eh, I'd argue that deliberately conning someone out of money and time because one knows they have a thing for one's self is more intrinsically immoral than just having a thing for a friend who doesn't feel the same way about them.

    Besides, once a woman is doing that kind of thing to someone, it's clear that she does not view that person as a friend, or even a person worthy of the most basic levels of respect or fair treatment.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-08-28 at 12:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    If someone wants to use the loaded "friend zone" instead of the honest "I like someone who doesn't like me", they should be aware of the connotations.
    it seems to me that you're trying to decide for everybody else that "friend zone" is a loaded term and it has negative connotations..and that you're not willing to consider the possibility that those negative connotations are an attribution you've given to the term for personal reasons or experience.. and that it needn't be so for everybody.
    there are plenty of jokes..even entire movies, about the so called friendzone.. most of them are rather childish and take the argument in jest.. some people take it further from there and indeed give those negative connotations to the situation IRL.
    then again, most people are morons.
    I think it has to do with maturity of the individual and that those negative connotations sooner or later are grown out off.. just as we eventually grow out of those themes that make the success of movies like american pie.. i.e. first time sex, virgins, social stigma connected to the various facets of the subject and so on..
    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    More to the point, you used the word "challenge". I really can't read "see escaping the friendzone as a challenge" without it coming across as "win the girl over despite her stated disinterest". The whole concept of "win the girl" is bad on so many levels to begin with (you land a date by being somebody that she wants to date, not by racking up enough points to cash in for the prize), and the whole thing smacks of something out of a romcom more than any human interaction.
    mmmh I don't know.. on the whole I do agree..but then.. how many success stories are based on one or the other part of a couple overcoming initial rejection/bad first impressions?
    if nobody fought to conquer their partner, there'd be a lot more singles about than there are..
    specifically:
    (you land a date by being somebody that she wants to date, not by racking up enough points to cash in for the prize),
    this is fundamentally true... but there are things that you can do to make sure s/he sees you as someone s/he wants to date.
    if what you said was an absolute, only "predestined couples" and "love at first sight" could ever result in a couple forming... which is patently not true.
    people change their mind all the time..also about other people.. if you have strong feelings for someone who doesn't reciprocate, you should be free to try and change that person's mind without being automatically filed as a creep for not letting go instantly.
    it may end up in a disastrous failure, and one should always be mindful of where the border lies between making a fair effort and becoming worthy of the attention of the authorities... but if the alternative is to be single for life or at least until that elusive love at first sight (which carries it's own potential of going horribly wrong).. well giving it a fair go is a legit option, I think.
    to go back on the whole friend zone thing.. it seems to me that some of the animosity against the concept or at least the definition thereof stems from this being a mostly male issue...which then ties into a number of other "male vs female" arguments..
    my personal experience is that I've been friendzoned so to speak.. a number of times.. and I remember of at least one instance where I have friendzoned sommeone who I actually had a bit of a crush on.. through sheer ineptitude and shyness from my part.. so no..the whole issue isn't as cut and dry as some try to make it.
    Last edited by dehro; 2012-08-28 at 05:38 AM.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    mmmh I don't know.. on the whole I do agree..but then.. how many success stories are based on one or the other part of a couple overcoming initial rejection/bad first impressions?
    if nobody fought to conquer their partner, there'd be a lot more singles about than there are..
    But how many of these success stories actually happened instead of being just another clichéd romance novel/movie?

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    But how many of these success stories actually happened instead of being just another clichéd romance novel/movie?
    let me tell you about my grandad
    after the war he went to live in Amsterdam, and in the same building there was this girl he was really taken by.. apparently she didn't appreciate him all that much.
    one day, or rather, one afternoon, he decided to make a move.. he pulled some switches and wires out, knocking out the electricity in the entire building.
    a rather flustered young lady came down the stairs asking for his help.
    this was sometimes around 65 years ago.
    my grandad is 92 years old now.. my grandmother is 85.. they've been married for 62 years.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    let me tell you about my grandad
    after the war he went to live in Amsterdam, and in the same building there was this girl he was really taken by.. apparently she didn't appreciate him all that much.
    one day, or rather, one afternoon, he decided to make a move.. he pulled some switches and wires out, knocking out the electricity in the entire building.
    a rather flustered young lady came down the stairs asking for his help.
    this was sometimes around 65 years ago.
    my grandad is 92 years old now.. my grandmother is 85.. they've been married for 62 years.
    Did he work as a janitor in that house or why would she exactly ask him for help?
    You say he "decided to make a move". Was this the first action he took or had he tried before and was rejected?

    I'm now also doing this deviantart thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    But how many of these success stories actually happened instead of being just another clichéd romance novel/movie?
    I have a friend whose grandmother originally hated her grandfather because she had heard some untrue rumour about him, so she refused to even speak to him for years before they properly met.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    A little thought exercise for you all. We've been rabbiting on about this "friendzone" thing for a good couple of pages now so I want to take the idea a step further.

    Supposing humans came with an "map" of their emotional connections - what would it look like? Would it be a flat 2D map or some kind of 3D model similar to planetary orbits? What other zones would be on there apart from the previously mentioned one? How would a significant other appear on the map?

    I'd be interested to know what you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Did he work as a janitor in that house or why would she exactly ask him for help?
    You say he "decided to make a move". Was this the first action he took or had he tried before and was rejected?
    he lived there.. he was a man, she was alone so asked him for help.
    I'm told it wasn't his first approach, but to him was a turning point that in the end helped him win her over. consider the psychology of the time.. not long after the war, both of them survivors and to a degree, expats (she'd grown up in Indonesia.. he near the border with Belgium but was born in Poland and had spent the war on the run from the nazis).. she wasn't going to give him any more attention than she strictly had to...what with being alone (her parents lived in another city), having to protect herself..and work through her "prison camp survival" issues.
    she was rather retired.. if that's a word.. and he had his work cut out making an impression.
    Last edited by dehro; 2012-08-28 at 08:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    That's what I think: people use it with all its blamey connotations, and then when they're called on it load it up with qualifiers and "what I actually meant was...".
    I've been waiting for this to blow over, but really my 2cp. Now I don't know how it has changed over time and over distance (and it seems to have gone through more than one change) but there was a period of time, mostly in the 90's where it seemed a large number of young women at least in Southern California who came up with a social rule. You can not date friends. It seemed to come from some emulation of the hookup culture that highschoolers thought existed in college and was thus cool. Sound stupid. Yep it was. My girlfriends in highschool took flack from their female friends because they were friends with me before we started dating. I litterally heard the line "I'd love to date you but we are friends so you're, kinda off limits" - which told me more about her and that she wasn't a good girl to date anyway. So to us that was being "Friend-zoned". Now the younger people who I still talk to don't seem to have very much of that but it was the definition used in that time and place.
    I only state this to point out how little the phrase has a common or stable meaning. It has massive variety in context, tone, and meaning over time, place, age, social standing, etc.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    ^: You know, I do recall something of that from my childhood television, come to think of it...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    A little thought exercise for you all. We've been rabbiting on about this "friendzone" thing for a good couple of pages now so I want to take the idea a step further.

    Supposing humans came with an "map" of their emotional connections - what would it look like? Would it be a flat 2D map or some kind of 3D model similar to planetary orbits? What other zones would be on there apart from the previously mentioned one? How would a significant other appear on the map?

    I'd be interested to know what you think.
    What, like love, crushes, hatreds, people who we hate but would hate-sex, family, platonic friends we view as family-like? Just how we'd arrange such things in general or more how our own personal map would look?
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-08-28 at 12:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Castaras View Post
    Quick question for y'all, a curiosity thing rather than all the friendzone stuff that's bashing its head against the wall:

    How do you tell the difference between crushing, love, and infatuation?
    Speaking as a boy

    Crush: When being around somebody gives me warm fuzzies.

    Infatuation: A crush state held by anybody appreciably younger than me.

    Love: What you say to a woman when when you want to use a different orifice.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    A little thought exercise for you all. We've been rabbiting on about this "friendzone" thing for a good couple of pages now so I want to take the idea a step further.

    Supposing humans came with an "map" of their emotional connections - what would it look like? Would it be a flat 2D map or some kind of 3D model similar to planetary orbits? What other zones would be on there apart from the previously mentioned one? How would a significant other appear on the map?

    I'd be interested to know what you think.
    Panel six.

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    Default Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Argh, why can't I adequately explain what it is that's so offensive about doing a search for "friendzone" and finding scores and scores of results on "avoiding the Friend Zone" and "how to escape the Friend Zone" and "being trapped in the Friend Zone" and "Friend Zone Fiona"? If you want to dismiss the latter as "just a joke", then I recommend reading through the comments on some of those memes. I suppose the Urban Dictionary entry might help, and the Ladder Theory (Friend Zone by another name).
    And yeah, the Friend Zone is fairly closely tied to Nice Guys: Nice Guys get Friendzoned.
    I've never really seen it as having a negative connotation, and the fact that terrible people use a term does not make it intrinsically associated with terrible people.

    I've also never thought of it as associated with Nice Guys.

    I guess I can see where your coming from though. If you consider it as more than just convenient short hand, then yeah it might be interpreted with some unfortunate implications.

    Also I'm not entirely convinced it exists, in a similar way to arguments from snoopy13a.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I'd be surprised if you hadn't tried calling her sometime sooner than after 2 hours though, I admit. Isn't the usual etiquette somewhere in the 15 to 30 minute after agreed upon rendezvous time range? And that's if you're not actively having to coordinate to find one another at the location/give directions.
    Is this really accepted protocol? (serious question)
    Last edited by inky13112; 2012-08-28 at 01:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inky13112 View Post
    Is this really accepted protocol? (serious question)
    It depends of course on the exact situation, but otherwise I'd say, this is pretty standard. Cultural differences do of course apply to a certain extent.

    Why do you ask? Have you experienced different protocols?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Castaras View Post
    Quick question for y'all, a curiosity thing rather than all the friendzone stuff that's bashing its head against the wall:

    How do you tell the difference between crushing, love, and infatuation?
    No difference as far as I can see. They're all myths.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy13a View Post
    Of course, things get complicated if you become attracted (as in wanting a romantic relationship, not just simple physical attraction) to the person after you've become friends. But that's a different story.
    Why exactly is it assumed that this isn't the thing that happens most, exactly? I know that's how me and most of my friends operate. I could never have anything more than lust for an attractive woman if I didn't already see her as a friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    It depends of course on the exact situation, but otherwise I'd say, this is pretty standard. Cultural differences do of course apply to a certain extent.

    Why do you ask? Have you experienced different protocols?
    No, I just wish I'd known this years ago. My way of doing things has always been far stupider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Castaras View Post
    Quick question for y'all, a curiosity thing rather than all the friendzone stuff that's bashing its head against the wall:

    How do you tell the difference between crushing, love, and infatuation?
    I see crushing and infatuation as one-way streets. Granted, the other person may "crush" you back but there is not a mutual bond yet--in that case, it's kinda like two ships crossing in the fog.

    Romantic love, on the other hand, is different. I think it can only be formed through mutual effort over a relatively long time period of time. I believe it is when two people care deeply about the other's well-being.

    I guess, in a crush, you "want" the other person. And in love, you want what's best for the other person.

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