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  1. - Top - End - #241
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
    Blackfox, thanks for the good advice about ice. What is funny is I knew that trick: in fact, I've used it in the past when I had a frail, elderly pet in an unairconditioned house during a heat wave. He was a very old bunny, and I filled empty plastic soda bottles (the big liter-sized one) with water and froze 'em, then put Old Bunny and the bottles together in the bathroom, along with an electric fan. He was the happiest person in the house that week!
    Sounds like he was very well loved

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
    I did take myself out this morning, to try to find coffee and to get a connection on my cell phone, and that was when I made my first post. The local caffè had no power, but the intrepid owner set up a camp stove, ground coffee beans with a rolling pin, and served coffee from the hand press. Good stuff. It was nice to sit in the shade, with a breeze, and enjoy the "postapocalyptic bonhomie" of a neighborhood that's had an inconvenient (but not disabling or deadly) brush with an angry Mother Nature. But I did have to go home, and the day has been a bit lonely ... especially when I think about my cousins at the family reunion (happening right now). I try not to think about that.
    'Intrepid' is a great word there. The owner sounds like a pretty cool dude.
    The Feud continues!
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    - Feud, the: The 'secret' plot to do something to BlackFox for some reason no one seems to really recall. Accusations of a government cover-up concerning the Feud remain unsubstantiated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
    Hoseki looks between Blackfox and El Jaspero. "...I think the Elemental Plane of Fire has frozen over."

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
    Thanks also for the get-well wishes, Succubus. I too wish I might get well soon ... and stay that way. This is the third time this year I have cancelled travel plans at the last minute due to illness. I know exactly why I keep getting sick: I work with kids in a swimming pool. I knew when I accepted this job that it would take a while for my immune system to adjust ....but it seems harder than it has been in the past. Is that because I am older, and more vulnerable? Is it because working in a swimming pool makes a whole new soupy environment for infection? Or some other reason? Or some combination? At any rate, I have been thinking of looking for new work, in spite of enjoying this job, which also pays well and allows me a huge amount of time for working on my writing.

    .
    I do know that a lot of folks get ear infections from swimming, so the chlorine in the pool isn't always 100% effective. Kids tend to be walking germ factories in my experience as well. I doubt your age is the prime cause - besides, you're not what I would call "old", not by any means.

    I like your idea about the frozen water bottles to keep pets cool but I've no ideas about how to convert it into a human friendly form. Given that I really loathe hot weather though, I think I'll make it my research project for the summer.
    Last edited by The Succubus; 2012-07-02 at 06:02 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    You just use those water cooler type bottles instead. Bigger bottles for bigger bodies.
    Witness my glory and know that when my darkness fades, if you yet live, it is because an ally does not.

    AN EMPTY SPOT WITHIN MY CRAW CRAVES YOUR FLESH, YOUR BONES BLED RAW!
    YOUR FEAR! YOUR FEAR! SO SWEET! SO STRONG! TO TEASE MY TONGUE, YOUR LIVES ARE GONE!
    YOUR ODDS UNFAVORED, MY WEB TOO STRONG! SPEED WON'T NEGATE A LINE STEPPED WRONG!
    YOU DARE? DARE SMITE THIS AWESOME BEAST? YOUR FATES ARE SEALED AS MY NEXT FEAST!
    HEED THIS BECK AND HEAR THIS CALL! FIGHT ME STILL, YOUR WILLS SHALL FALL!

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
    Thaco, I just saw your post. I am so sorry to hear about your chickies! It is so hard to lose a pet, but there is no pain that cannot be made worse by wondering ... @was it my fault? Did I miss something?"

    We do the best we can to care for our pets. Sometimes our best isn't enough. That you yourself suffered from heat stroke tells me there really wasn't anything you could have done differently.

    My deepest condolences to you. How terrible to lose all three of your pets. Please take care of yourself. Let us know how you are doing, okay?
    Thank you. I spent yesterday recovering and am feeling much better now. Several other people lost chickens in this heat, so it wasn't just me. I've also learned about how to close off my shower so if I get more hens and if it gets this hot again I can bring them inside to the air conditioning.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    So I tried to tell my brother about the pokemon vietnamese crystal hack and it ended with him demanding payment every time I use the xbox and threatening to break my computer. I hate my family.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    *hugs coffee*

    So, I'm looking for volunteers. Every time someone says something like "Everyone feels tired/sad/stressed/nervous sometimes!" in a mental health conversation, I'd like a squad of people to show up and take them off for a week of mandatory training on mental illness. Any takers?
    Kittyfey thanks to Kaarienne.

    Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
    CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    *hugs coffee*

    So, I'm looking for volunteers. Every time someone says something like "Everyone feels tired/sad/stressed/nervous sometimes!" in a mental health conversation, I'd like a squad of people to show up and take them off for a week of mandatory training on mental illness. Any takers?
    I can be the one that does the heavy lifting, but my Use Straitjacket modifier is pretty low.
    The Feud continues!
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    - Feud, the: The 'secret' plot to do something to BlackFox for some reason no one seems to really recall. Accusations of a government cover-up concerning the Feud remain unsubstantiated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
    Hoseki looks between Blackfox and El Jaspero. "...I think the Elemental Plane of Fire has frozen over."

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    I volunteer! =D

    ...assuming I'm not too depressed to move, of course. =3
    Cobra Avatar by the lovely Miss Nobody. *hugs*

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    Whenever I see a post by Cobra I think of the kitten sitting on a pillow that hugs everyone... everyone
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    Zergling Ikari rush! I'm in ur base, hugging ur doods!

    Playground God of Hugs and Other Physical Affections. *snuggles*

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    I'm in, on one condition: I get to be as abusive as I see fit. How abusive that is will depend on what they said, how they said it, and a variety of other factors (including how much I feel like hitting someone), but it'll only mostly be arbitrary.
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    you're like a male Felicia Day
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    Witch doctors might tell you "ooh ee ooh ah ah ting tang wallawalla bing bang", but they give you that for everything, so most of us consider it a ridiculous scam.
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    When you're flopping about uncertainly like a Magikarp that just got sent in against a level 60 Venusaur, just go back to the basics.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    *hugs coffee*

    So, I'm looking for volunteers. Every time someone says something like "Everyone feels tired/sad/stressed/nervous sometimes!" in a mental health conversation, I'd like a squad of people to show up and take them off for a week of mandatory training on mental illness. Any takers?
    *raises hand*
    *raises both hands*
    *flails wildly with both hands in the air*
    Quote Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession games
    I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
    - If an adventurer shouts and nobody is around to hear it, the game crashes
    - War Dogs appear to run from themselves in terror
    - New tree generation frequently causes birds to explode

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    What's the proper way to deal with being told to commit suicide, or reminded that you're a useless drain on society and don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on how you should be treated?

    (assuming "ignore them" doesn't work because "HEY! LISTEN TO ME WHEN I TALK TO YOU!, "tell them off" doesn't work because "You don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on you should be treated", and "don't interact with them" doesn't work because "Hey, it's a free country, I have more of a right to be here than your disabled non-taxpayer ass.")
    Last edited by Ialdabaoth; 2012-07-06 at 02:40 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ialdabaoth View Post
    What's the proper way to deal with being told to commit suicide, or reminded that you're a useless drain on society and don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on how you should be treated?

    (assuming "ignore them" doesn't work because "HEY! LISTEN TO ME WHEN I TALK TO YOU!, "tell them off" doesn't work because "You don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on you should be treated", and "don't interact with them" doesn't work because "Hey, it's a free country, I have more of a right to be here than your disabled non-taxpayer ass.")
    My first impulse would be to tell them to go <<censored>> themselves. Alternately, something like "At least I have a sense of empathy. Not to mention common courtesy." might work.

    May I ask where this is occurring? Regardless, if it's a repeated problem, document every time. Record it if you legally can. See if you can get the person kicked out. If it's a public place, also talk to the local police about what qualifies as harassment or breach of peace.
    Kittyfey thanks to Kaarienne.

    Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
    CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    *hugs coffee*

    So, I'm looking for volunteers. Every time someone says something like "Everyone feels tired/sad/stressed/nervous sometimes!" in a mental health conversation, I'd like a squad of people to show up and take them off for a week of mandatory training on mental illness. Any takers?
    Yes. Oh so much yes. In fact I don't think I can say yes enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ialdabaoth View Post
    What's the proper way to deal with being told to commit suicide, or reminded that you're a useless drain on society and don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on how you should be treated?

    (assuming "ignore them" doesn't work because "HEY! LISTEN TO ME WHEN I TALK TO YOU!, "tell them off" doesn't work because "You don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on you should be treated", and "don't interact with them" doesn't work because "Hey, it's a free country, I have more of a right to be here than your disabled non-taxpayer ass.")
    Unfortunately 'avoid them' is usually the best option when dealing with that sort of person (and I use 'person' in the loosest possible sense of the word here). If that isn't an option then I'd have to echo what WarKitty said.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ialdabaoth's problem
    "Hey, it's a free country, I have more of a right to be here than your disabled non-taxpayer ass."
    "Damn straight it's a free country. Meaning you don't have to be around a person who offends your sensibilities." Then just haters-gonna-hate-roll outta there and let him suck on that. Retards get remarkably quiet if someone they think is an easy target makes them look even stupider than they are. Make sure there are bystanders, though. Just an idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty
    So, I'm looking for volunteers. Every time someone says something like "Everyone feels tired/sad/stressed/nervous sometimes!" in a mental health conversation, I'd like a squad of people to show up and take them off for a week of mandatory training on mental illness.
    I dearly hope and kind of assume that this is just frustration-venting or a joke. But anyhow, did something in particular grind that specific gear? Consider me curious, not sarcastic, here.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeIncluded
    So I tried to tell my brother about the pokemon vietnamese crystal hack and it ended with him demanding payment every time I use the xbox and threatening to break my computer. I hate my family.
    Honestly? From one older sibling to (IIRC) another? It is okay for us to kick their asses down a notch when they get uppity. Just saying.

    (Warning: When taking this advice, things might get worse before they can get better. When taking this advice more literally, do aim for the nuts.)

    Other than that, and what might seem like silliness aside, I wish you the best of luck with them, and do go right ahead if you should feel the need to vent.

    Also, and perhaps atypically, I do have a woe of my own to bring up:

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    Anyone hear from Daemonhawk since he posted in this thread a while ago? I still stand by the advice I gave him there, but far as I know, he hasn't posted once since then, and I was hoping someone could perhaps appease my worries here. I've gotten by on telling myself he ran with the "report back if you feel the need" clauses we / I offered, and just didn't feel the need. But if anyone knows a little more about how things have gone for him, I would appreciate if you could let me know.

    That would be all for now, though. Gonna stick around.
    Last edited by Worlok; 2012-07-06 at 08:16 PM. Reason: The gear in the sky keeps on grinding...

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worlok View Post
    I dearly hope and kind of assume that this is just frustration-venting or a joke.
    I'm aware this wasn't directed at me, but for my response it wasn't exactly a joke. Certainly not one meant to be funny, anyway. Because that sort of comment crops up all the time whenever mental illness appears in conversation. And it usually falls to you, the actually mental ill person - who will have had to put with this sort of remark and worse for a long time - to try and explain to the individual who made this very uninformed, vaguely condescending remark that there is, in fact, quite a major difference between being tired/sad/stressed/nervous and having a mental illness. And you can't actually say that this remark is highly uninformed and sounds vaguely condescending in case they take offence and get defensive which would result in you losing what slim possibility you had of getting them to listen.


    So, would I actually force someone to be dragged off to be educated? Probably not, but I won't deny that I sometimes which that actually happened.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    smile Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ialdabaoth View Post
    What's the proper way to deal with being told to commit suicide, or reminded that you're a useless drain on society and don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on how you should be treated?

    (assuming "ignore them" doesn't work because "HEY! LISTEN TO ME WHEN I TALK TO YOU!, "tell them off" doesn't work because "You don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on you should be treated", and "don't interact with them" doesn't work because "Hey, it's a free country, I have more of a right to be here than your disabled non-taxpayer ass.")
    Miss the fireworks? No problem! Come watch flames shoot out Monkey's ears. This kind of talk makes me mad ...

    Okay. First off, no one deserves to be spoken to that way. No one. I am sorry you were the target of hate.

    The appropriate response is to widen your eyes slightly and to say, "Wow". The wow implies that you are struck speechless by the sheer idiocy of the speaker. Any further insults should be met with, "I have nothing to say to you, and I would appreciate if you would return the favor."

    If the person continues to attempt to interact, that is when you call the police to say you are being harassed, and that you feel threatened.

    I recommend not responding in an angry way, because this only gives the hater fodder. It's like ignoring a troll in a forum. Don't flame back, even when you are in the right, even when the troll deserves it.

    If this is something that happens at work or at school, you need to document it (as Kitty recommended) and to get witnesses. If this happens at home ... you need to get the hell out of there.

    I'd like to add my voice to those asking for more information. Meanwhile, please take whatever steps you need to keep yourself safe from this creep.

    -Monkey
    Last edited by MonkeyBusiness; 2012-07-06 at 09:50 PM.
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    .

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ialdabaoth View Post
    What's the proper way to deal with being told to commit suicide, or reminded that you're a useless drain on society and don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on how you should be treated?

    (assuming "ignore them" doesn't work because "HEY! LISTEN TO ME WHEN I TALK TO YOU!, "tell them off" doesn't work because "You don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on you should be treated", and "don't interact with them" doesn't work because "Hey, it's a free country, I have more of a right to be here than your disabled non-taxpayer ass.")
    if it's a stranger, point and laugh at the idiot.
    if it's a friend..maybe it's not a friend at all. ignore and change friend status to "moron who deserves to be slapped in the face by random strangers". strive to encourage this behaviour from random strangers, just for fun (well..no, don't.. but it would be fun, wouldn't it?)
    if it's family.. much depends on the closeness of the family tie.. first thing I'd do is to tell about the rant to other family members, possibly closer ones than the "culprit".. not in a "talk about him behind his back" way, but in a "I'm shocked and don't quite know how to handle the situation, what should I do?" way.
    if it's your direct family..well.. I can't answer that. don't know the situation nor the individuals.

    of course this is in case of a single rant/outburst. if it's systematic behaviour..then you have a bigger problem and should probably cut off the individual or individuals (for all I know it may be a group, or even a number of family members)...if possible. Should it not be possible.. seek outside help..not from the net but from people who know you, care about you and would support you in your decisions with regards to the situation.

    on a sidenote.. just to cover all the bases.. try and understand what has brought this behaviour/outburst about. has it been caused by you, by any chance? have you done anything that might give the impression that you're milking the disability? (milked the state for something you may not have a right to... milked friendships and family relations for support, emotional or otherwise, hiding behind the disability and giving nothing in return... made a big deal about your disability making it the focus of your life, and possibly theirs, when most other people with the same problem seem to manage better than you because they make an effort...any combination of the above?.. are we talking about individuals who you may have wronged seriously in the past, whether it be related to your disability or not?)
    if not, then well.. you're right to be pissed off with whoever gave you those lines (which are..harsh.. even if they had reason to be mad with you).. and should totally do what I suggested, as applicable.
    also, give them the finger from me.
    Last edited by dehro; 2012-07-07 at 06:40 AM.
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    with many thanks to Avi for the siggatar

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    EDIT: The matter I mentioned in the spoiler in my post further up on this page did luckily resolve itself. Got a PM, and it seems like things have been going well. We dun good, everybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver
    I'm aware this wasn't directed at me, but for my response it wasn't exactly a joke. Certainly not one meant to be funny, anyway. Because that sort of comment crops up all the time whenever mental illness appears in conversation. And it usually falls to you, the actually mental ill person - who will have had to put with this sort of remark and worse for a long time - to try and explain to the individual who made this very uninformed, vaguely condescending remark that there is, in fact, quite a major difference between being tired/sad/stressed/nervous and having a mental illness. And you can't actually say that this remark is highly uninformed and sounds vaguely condescending in case they take offence and get defensive which would result in you losing what slim possibility you had of getting them to listen.


    So, would I actually force someone to be dragged off to be educated? Probably not, but I won't deny that I sometimes which that actually happened.
    Fair enough. Sorry if I came off as inconsiderate there, mine's not the best sense of tact, I fear.

    (Thing is, I, who I used to genuinely not know squat about mental illness, also used to make myself quite guilty of the offense in question a while back. I realised how it can get annoying and seem condescending or just plain rude, of course, and that realisation made me stop, but most of the people who say that don't mean it to be offensive, and it simply scared me a little to read the remark I commented on. We are, as you said, usually uninformed and simply can't spit out the question "But what is the difference?" when we do - I'm kinda tempted to claim that mental illness is almost as complicated to understand when you're not involved as it is difficult to be involved with, and with all the paranoia and half-truths about out there, it's a quick decision to dismiss the whole affair or settle for a sweeping generalisation. Which I don't mean to defend as a stance on the matter, it's horrible that it is that way, or justify, as laziness and cowardice are no good reasons when it comes to learning things, but I wanted for it to be on the record.

    Nowadays, I like to tell myself that I have a little more insight into the subject than I had then, and understand the difference to the point of no longer having to make an ass of myself, but it was a rather long and complicated path of asking questions, reading lots of questionable documents and trying to fill in the gaps with theory. So, obviously I am aware that I might seem a wee bit like a douche with this, which is not my intention, yet bear in mind that in a conversation about mental illness, most people as a whole just do not have a clue as to what they're talking about, nor a much better one as to what you are talking about, nor the slightest one about how to handle the subject in conversation, which is why they end up saying that kind of thing - more often than not, against their better judgment, actually. Some don't get it, and end up being jerks about such things, which is lamentable, but I'd still posit that what drives those comments isn't commonly or even often actual ill will. I'm in favor of some way of "mandatory" training about this kind of thing, make no mistake, but I'd personally simply rather see it as a class that's taught in schools than as a vigilante kidnapping organisation.

    Then again, I guess most of the things I just said are already obvious in a way, so don't mind me, just went into "But wait, I thought it's like"-mode there. )
    Last edited by Worlok; 2012-07-07 at 07:18 AM. Reason: Good news, everyone!

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Worlok View Post
    EDIT: The matter I mentioned in the spoiler in my post further up on this page did luckily resolve itself. Got a PM, and it seems like things have been going well. We dun good, everybody.


    Fair enough. Sorry if I came off as inconsiderate there, mine's not the best sense of tact, I fear.

    (Thing is, I, who I used to genuinely not know squat about mental illness, also used to make myself quite guilty of the offense in question a while back. I realised how it can get annoying and seem condescending or just plain rude, of course, and that realisation made me stop, but most of the people who say that don't mean it to be offensive, and it simply scared me a little to read the remark I commented on. We are, as you said, usually uninformed and simply can't spit out the question "But what is the difference?" when we do - I'm kinda tempted to claim that mental illness is almost as complicated to understand when you're not involved as it is difficult to be involved with, and with all the paranoia and half-truths about out there, it's a quick decision to dismiss the whole affair or settle for a sweeping generalisation. Which I don't mean to defend as a stance on the matter, it's horrible that it is that way, or justify, as laziness and cowardice are no good reasons when it comes to learning things, but I wanted for it to be on the record.

    Nowadays, I like to tell myself that I have a little more insight into the subject than I had then, and understand the difference to the point of no longer having to make an ass of myself, but it was a rather long and complicated path of asking questions, reading lots of questionable documents and trying to fill in the gaps with theory. So, obviously I am aware that I might seem a wee bit like a douche with this, which is not my intention, yet bear in mind that in a conversation about mental illness, most people as a whole just do not have a clue as to what they're talking about, nor a much better one as to what you are talking about, nor the slightest one about how to handle the subject in conversation, which is why they end up saying that kind of thing - more often than not, against their better judgment, actually. Some don't get it, and end up being jerks about such things, which is lamentable, but I'd still posit that what drives those comments isn't commonly or even often actual ill will. I'm in favor of some way of "mandatory" training about this kind of thing, make no mistake, but I'd personally simply rather see it as a class that's taught in schools than as a vigilante kidnapping organisation.

    Then again, I guess most of the things I just said are already obvious in a way, so don't mind me, just went into "But wait, I thought it's like"-mode there. )
    ...you're being very defensive here of behavior that basically boils down to the trivializing of illnesses of others. In fact, it really feels like you're still doing the same thing that was being criticized in the first place.

    In what way is learning or understanding how mental illness works at all on the level of difficulty of having a mental illness? I can't even understand how you could say that. It comes off as saying "Hey, don't get upset with me for being condescending to you out of ignorance, you have to understand how much harder of a struggle it is for me to educate myself or at least not force my misguided lack of knowledge upon you than it is for you to have a mental illness". That's...so offensive, to me. I really can't understand the mindset you're defending here.

    I also don't think you understand how hurtful the trivializing of mental illness can be. It's already something that's difficult to deal with, and is generally stigmatized by society. Adding in wave after wave of people saying things like "You're not REALLY depressed, everyone feels sad sometimes" makes people treat you and your illness as though they aren't serious issues, and feel more secure in doing things like mocking you for having a mental illness. Because, yeah, that happens.



    TL;DR version: It was an expression of frustration with the way that ignorant people treat those with mental illness. It wasn't even the worst expression of frustration I've ever heard. It's very hurtful, then, when you come in and defend people's right to say hurtful things to us because you didn't like a joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ialdabaoth View Post
    What's the proper way to deal with being told to commit suicide, or reminded that you're a useless drain on society and don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on how you should be treated?

    (assuming "ignore them" doesn't work because "HEY! LISTEN TO ME WHEN I TALK TO YOU!, "tell them off" doesn't work because "You don't deserve to live, let alone have an opinion on you should be treated", and "don't interact with them" doesn't work because "Hey, it's a free country, I have more of a right to be here than your disabled non-taxpayer ass.")
    For what it's worth, whoever told you that is wrong and they're an *******. Their behaviour is unacceptable.

    I don't know whether someone like that can be made to understand. Probably the only way they would is if they'd get some first hand experience themselves. Anyway, you don't bear any responsibility for making them understand so you certainly don't have to waste any time and energy trying to convince them how wrong they are.

    The only other way to make them stop that I can think of is to appeal to the authorities if they keep doing it. If it's in the workplace then find out what your company's policy on bullying at work is. If it's elsewhere then you can probably call the police because you're being harassed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_Ikari View Post
    ...you're being very defensive here of behavior that basically boils down to the trivializing of illnesses of others. In fact, it really feels like you're still doing the same thing that was being criticized in the first place.
    without entering into the debate or taking sides about what was said.. I would like to point out that sometimes trivializing is a coping mechanism... be it the coping mechanism of the ignorant faced with something they can't understand or relate to, which is often wrong and hurtful anyway and not very considerate towards those that have to face/live with that something.. or the coping mechanism of those that are facing the issue, directly or are affected by it indirectly.
    either way, this is not necessarily the indication of a "bad or uncaring individual".. and isn't necessarily said or meant to hurt..however badly it looks int he eyes of those who are affected by the issue.
    as an example, I occasionally am guilty of trivializing (in words at least, my thoughts about it are very serious indeed) Parkinson's Disease.. something which my father is battling with and which I see him slowly but surely being consumed by. trivializing it is a way for me to cope, and to sometimes lighten the mood.. be it mine or that of another family member.
    admittedly, good jokes or situations where Parkinson's Disease is actually fun to interact with are hard to come by.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    either way, this is not necessarily the indication of a "bad or uncaring individual".. and isn't necessarily said or meant to hurt..however badly it looks int he eyes of those who are affected by the issue.
    The point is that when you're faced with a mentally ill person as a non-mentally-ill individual, the thing to do is not say 'Oh I don't understand so it must be okay for me to trivialise with impunity.' The thing to do is to attempt to understand. To do anything else is negligent, perhaps criminally in the worst circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    on a sidenote.. just to cover all the bases.. try and understand what has brought this behaviour/outburst about. has it been caused by you, by any chance? have you done anything that might give the impression that you're milking the disability? (milked the state for something you may not have a right to... milked friendships and family relations for support, emotional or otherwise, hiding behind the disability and giving nothing in return... made a big deal about your disability making it the focus of your life, and possibly theirs, when most other people with the same problem seem to manage better than you because they make an effort...any combination of the above?.. are we talking about individuals who you may have wronged seriously in the past, whether it be related to your disability or not?)
    This is always a big part of the problem - how do I know if I'm really depressed or "faking it"? How do I know if I'm just lazy, or just milking for attention? How do I know how much of an 'effort' I can make? If I do my best and try my hardest, but other people think I'm not trying hard enough, does that mean I'm not really trying my hardest?

    (And yeah yeah, "no one can answer that but you" - but that's not really the point, is it? Because everyone sure as hell thinks they can answer it, and if there's more of them than me, and they're the only kind of "safety net" that matters, than what they think is a hell of a lot more important to my survival than what I think, isn't it?)
    Last edited by Ialdabaoth; 2012-07-07 at 09:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_Ikari
    In what way is learning or understanding how mental illness works at all on the level of difficulty of having a mental illness? I can't even understand how you could say that.
    Not so much "learning or understanding how mental illness works" as "learning or understanding what mental illness is, and at what point you can actually start speaking of one", actually. Which I, at least, was hard-pressed to even begin comprehending, all the more since there are sadly lots of people who see mental illness in everyone and everything, and get vocal about it, to boot; making it hard to make sense of the issue at all.

    I said "I'm kinda tempted to claim that mental illness is almost as complicated to understand when you're not involved as it is difficult to be involved with", and I specifically worded it that way to avoid the implication that I thought both to be equally difficult, which I don't. I was trying to relay that when you genuinely have no goddamn clue and not had a lick of exposure to the topic at hand in the past, trying to comprehend an entirely different walk of life, with entirely different challenges and limitations on the way, is hard, from the inside of the topic out (which I trust you to be more familiar with than I could hope to be) just as much as from the outside looking in (which is where I am coming from), and that I can hence understand if people fail at it, even though I, much like everyone else, am not a fan of that happening, naturally.

    One thing that might be important to note, though, is that in a vein quite similar to how mental illness, itself, is stigmatised and trivialised in the public eye, the field of psychology and mental health is potentially one of the ones most people are afraid to actually get into, because it still carries this stigma of being exclusively a thing for people who studied and researched it for some twelve years straight, at least to the best of my knowledge, and thus the "best" most can do is hazard an (un)educated guess or look for simple shorthand basics to base their ideas off of.

    Consider the following, if you would: Those that don't know squat make guesses, believing they are to do something, anything; those that like to pretend they know more than they do form "theories", which are the same wild guesses stuffed up with some "facts" and "working knowledge"; those that like to pretend they know less than they do or assume everyone else already did the same and they could thus not possibly change anything, accept those "theories" as fact or working knowledge for (perceived) lack of an alternative; those that would otherwise have to make guesses then merrily jump on the bandwagon in order to have something, anything, that they can do; those that do know, lastly, are often divided in their interpretation of their knowledge, and thus can take some time before they do something, all of the aforementioned processes naturally dependant on conscience and interests, quite individually. Vicious cycle? Yes. But one that affects everyone even only partially involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_Ikari
    I also don't think you understand how hurtful the trivializing of mental illness can be. It's already something that's difficult to deal with, and is generally stigmatized by society. Adding in wave after wave of people saying things like "You're not REALLY depressed, everyone feels sad sometimes" makes people treat you and your illness as though they aren't serious issues, and feel more secure in doing things like mocking you for having a mental illness. Because, yeah, that happens.
    You are right, I most likely don't understand. Believe me or not, I've actually seen that happen, I have, myself, been guilty of it in the past, and I have also been on the receiving end occasionally, even though I'm not going to claim that I've had it as bad as some. But I don't know if I could understand what it's like, I can only reliably understand what it's like on the "other" side. And what that does look like, from here, to me, is people who don't know about a matter trying to be understanding or even wanting to "help", but failing at it due to aforementioned ignorance, or alternatively, people failing to realise that they just don't know, which, as a claim, has never been contested.

    Also, yes, the "You're not really x" is douchebaggery, no discussion, it's an assumption and quite a dangerous one at that. A simple "But y happens to everyone", however, is not, or not intentionally so most of the time, since that issue goes both ways and "If y happens to everyone, but (an increased amount of) y can also be a symptom of x, then how can I know when x is the case, especially in a case of y?" is what most folks end up thinking about the matter, and what the average guy on the street is potentially basing his view on it on. (That, and people claiming their experiencing y means they are x can bias you towards thinking that possible cases of x boil down to an imbalance of y more often than not. Which is also a thing that happens, and likewise, as I'm sure you think as well, not a good thing in the least.)

    What happens most of the time, unless I'm severely mistaken, is that people think "Mental illness is bad, I understand this much. What mental illness is and is like, I do not. This person I am talking to might be worrying too much, and if, far as I know, y happens to be the case for him more often or severely than for me, x also being the case is the worst case, with y being the only thing I can base my observations off of, then maybe the best thing I can do to support him is point out that y happens to everyone, and it thus need not be x" - which is typically ignorance at its finest, yes, but a perfectly understandable impulse from someone who doesn't grasp the full scope of it, in my opinion.

    I might, of course, be wrong.

    Also, as a legend: "x" would here mean "mental illness", whereas "y" would likely be things like "feeling sad/angry/inadequate", just in case it wasn't clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_Ikari
    It's very hurtful, then, when you come in and defend people's right to say hurtful things to us because you didn't like a joke.
    That's not what I meant to say, and I'm not trying to defend that at all. What I said was that it's hard to understand or approach the matter, and that, at least speaking from my personal experience, it's rarely meant to be hurtful, but simply said in ignorance, and potentially even a show of good will that fails to make itself clear, which does not make it less ignorant, but should underline the fact that it's rarely actual malice or similar. Where I did come off as hurtful, trust me, I did not intend for it to be that way, and would like to apologise if I, in fact, did hurt or offend you or anyone else who read it there.

    What my entire post was meant to boil down to, in fact, was that misunderstandings and neglect create more confusion in this world than trickery and malice, and that at any rate, the last two are certainly much less frequent, to wrap it in a quote. I'm not trying or meaning to offend anyone. I'm trying to say that statements like the "Everyone" are honest mistakes or stupidity as often as or hopefully more often than intentional insults. And that, at least in my case, the former was true, making it a jarring experience to hear people speak of forming indoctrination squads and requesting "to get to be as abusive as I see fit"(*) about it, like someone actually did. Call it a force of habit, a cultural thing or an occupational hazard, maybe, but that kind of thing registers poorly with me, joke or not. I can, however, see that I may not have worded my argument all that well, and must bid your forgiveness (here not only meaning Cobra, but everyone who reads this) for the misunderstanding. I hope I could clear up my point a little, but of course you are still free to disagree with me even then.

    (DISCLAIMER: When I say "you are free disagree with me" here, I mean it, as I'm really only speaking for myself, and from my point of view. I have been wrong before. There are also different opinions, of course. Some of which get to the levels of Ialdabaoth's special "friend" in just what they think of mental illness and those that speak of it. I am aware of and rather familiar with some of them, and my own opinion on the matter of mental illness as a whole I have withheld from this discussion for good reason. I am trying to be objective about the matter at hand. The matter at hand being my being subjective about causes and reasons for different types of behavior in this instance, not mental illness and what it entails as a whole. This is the truth as I understand it, and I would like to hereby point out that I'm not bent on arguing, but will explain my line of reasoning when called upon. Any arguments I bring up in this process are mainly brought up to that effect, and they are thus things which I have once or so far assumed or believed to be fact. I am not going to fight over them, as I consider such a moot endeavor, and would hope you understand.)

    Quote Originally Posted by blackfox
    The point is that when you're faced with a mentally ill person as a non-mentally-ill individual, the thing to do is not say 'Oh I don't understand so it must be okay for me to trivialise with impunity.' The thing to do is to attempt to understand. To do anything else is negligent, perhaps criminally in the worst circumstances.
    Yes. But sometimes, only sometimes, people are mistaken about things. They likely don't think it's okay for them to "trivialise with impunity", they simply don't realise that they trivialise, or that their trivialisation comes off as hurtful. Likewise, they may just not realise that they don't understand, or they might even be actively trying to understand, only to find (or not) that they are once again mistaken (or not). This, it is vital to understand when dealing with non-mentally-ill individuals, as that is very often the best they can do, and understanding must be mutual to be of worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueboy View Post
    I'm in, on one condition: I get to be as abusive as I see fit. How abusive that is will depend on what they said, how they said it, and a variety of other factors (including how much I feel like hitting someone), but it'll only mostly be arbitrary.

    TL;DR: I believe adherence to the old adage which posits that one should "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" to be well-advised.
    Last edited by Worlok; 2012-07-07 at 09:51 AM. Reason: Words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Worlok View Post
    TL;DR: I believe adherence to the old adage which posits that one should "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" to be well-advised.
    It all comes across as malice to someone in the wrong state of mind, and stupidity is hardly an excuse.

    EDIT: This is worded poorly, it comes across too much as 'Not understanding something isn't an excuse for not understanding something." Lemme fix.

    EDIT EDIT: The gist of my message is basically just 'think before you speak.' And if you get unexpected results, figure out why. If you're really so oblivious that you don't realise what you're doing is making things worse, then... godspeed, I guess?
    Last edited by blackfox; 2012-07-07 at 10:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ialdabaoth View Post
    This is always a big part of the problem - how do I know if I'm really depressed or "faking it"? How do I know if I'm just lazy, or just milking for attention? How do I know how much of an 'effort' I can make? If I do my best and try my hardest, but other people think I'm not trying hard enough, does that mean I'm not really trying my hardest?

    (And yeah yeah, "no one can answer that but you" - but that's not really the point, is it? Because everyone sure as hell thinks they can answer it, and if there's more of them than me, and they're the only kind of "safety net" that matters, than what they think is a hell of a lot more important to my survival than what I think, isn't it?)
    tough one to answer.
    I would say that if your doctor/shrink/social whatever believes you are depressed and has certified this/prescribed a cure, farmaceutical or in therapy as may be (excuse me, I'm on unfamiliar grounds with depression treatment), then chances are you probably are depressed indeed.

    this however doesn't necessarily excuse you from being caring, respectful or trying to give back as much as you can, when you can, to those that give to you because they care/have to/must/would feel bad if they didn't.
    if your conscience is clear on that respect, then you have right to feel insulted and to demand that they at least take back those hurtful words. if it is not.. I suggest you try your hardest to make reparations because chances are that you're putting them under more strain than you should be entitled to.
    if you're doing the best you can and it shows, and they still have.. I suppose.. had enough or can't seem to find it in them to cope with the situation.. then I'm truly sorry because I don't quite know what to say or what I'd do in your place. if you find that they are to blame for certain situations and for not coping correctly when they could have, or for not caring in a manner that one can expect to be cared about from his immediate family, then you might point that out to them in a rational kind of way..maybe it will shame them into an apology.. but again, much depends on the situation and the individuals.
    if there is no-one to blame and things just are the way they are, then you can only try to "man up" so to speak, do your utmost to reverse the spiral you're in into a positive one.. and if that falls on deaf ears irrespective of how successful you're at it, then you have all the right to give them the finger and tell them they're a bunch of selfish bastards.. if it turns out that way.
    where that leaves you and what that does to your safety net, I don't quite know..
    Last edited by dehro; 2012-07-07 at 10:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worlok View Post
    Fair enough. Sorry if I came off as inconsiderate there, mine's not the best sense of tact, I fear.

    (Thing is, I, who I used to genuinely not know squat about mental illness, also used to make myself quite guilty of the offense in question a while back. I realised how it can get annoying and seem condescending or just plain rude, of course, and that realisation made me stop, but most of the people who say that don't mean it to be offensive, and it simply scared me a little to read the remark I commented on.
    That's all very well, but the problem is that kind of statement (not question, statement) carries with it the implication that the problems of the mentally ill individual are not significantly different from those of a normal. Even if the speaker in question doesn't want to cause offence - although note that far from all of the people who make that statement are really all that concerned about that - it's an immediate red flag to anyone listening because it's the kind of statement that almost always proceeds a bout of much worse, more offensive statements and opinions. It's a safe bet that pretty much every mentally ill person has been subjected to this at some point in their lives so even if the commenter is utterly innocent in their intentions it's likely to bring up memories of worse remarks.


    We are, as you said, usually uninformed and simply can't spit out the question "But what is the difference?" when we do - I'm kinda tempted to claim that mental illness is almost as complicated to understand when you're not involved as it is difficult to be involved with
    Please resist that temptation. No, kill that temptation. Kill it stone dead. Because that's not just wrong - and wrong to a truly spectacular degree - that is outright insulting. It is trivialising the kind of things mentally ill people have to put up with pretty much continuously by comparing it to having difficulty getting a basic understanding of a tricky topic. Trivialising isn't even a strong enough word to describe what this is actually doing. I do not know if there exists a word that is strong enough to describe what this statement is doing.

    Look, we know that mental illness is not the easiest topic to get to grips with. I have been made painfully aware that in the vast majority of cases it is basically impossible for someone without a mental illness to understand what it means to have that sort of mental illness.
    That does not, however, mean that you cannot be aware that the are significant difference, that you cannot be aware if you don't know much about it and that you should feel comfortable making statements on the subject.

    Which I don't mean to defend as a stance on the matter, it's horrible that it is that way, or justify, as laziness and cowardice are no good reasons when it comes to learning things, but I wanted for it to be on the record.
    Yes. We know. I can say with some confidence that we already know this better than normals do. Because we see it all the time, we aren't able to overlook it. You do not need to put this on the record. It was never off the record to begin with. We know that a lot of people are completely ignorant of the topic because we have to deal with them and their ignorance all the time. Not just random strangers on the internet but colleagues, relatives, neighbours even close family members and more besides.
    We know how difficult a subject mental health is, because actually having a mental illness does not give you a basic education in psychology. We have had to learn about mental illness ourselves, from a position of already suffering from one (which can sometimes actually make diagnosing one harder).

    So, obviously I am aware that I might seem a wee bit like a douche with this, which is not my intention, yet bear in mind that in a conversation about mental illness, most people as a whole just do not have a clue as to what they're talking about, nor a much better one as to what you are talking about, nor the slightest one about how to handle the subject in conversation, which is why they end up saying that kind of thing - more often than not, against their better judgment, actually.
    Remember when I said you can't actually say such remarks are uninformed or condescending? This paragraph you wrote is what I was talking about. We know a lot of people simply don't know any better. We are not allowed to forget that a lot of people simply don't know any better.


    EDIT: well, this conversation went on a bit. Probably should leave the computer for a bit mid-reply.
    Last edited by Mr.Silver; 2012-07-07 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver
    It's a safe bet that pretty much every mentally ill person has been subjected to this at some point in their lives so even if the commenter is utterly innocent in their intentions it's likely to bring up memories of worse remarks.
    So noted, hence my bid for forgiveness up there. Many of the things you said make sense, and I will try and be more mindful of such circumstances in the future, (though either "side" in this specific instance of the dispute could probably stand to ease up a little). In short, we're trying to understand you, you're trying to deal with us, some people don't get it, and discussions on the internet never do anything.

    Only thing left for me to say is thus: I must insist that I was not, by any means, seeking to defend or justify ignorant behavior, nor to cause or receive any undue offense. I was trying to offer a rationale intended to help one cope, seeing how, you know, it's unlikely to simply stop happening any time soon. To think the other guy is simply stupid helps with that. And even as a joke, the whole "kidnapping squads" thing is kind of uncalled for, some of us do have baggage in that regard too. Other than that, I've brought my part to audience, the majority seems to disagree with certain elements of it, not much left to do here then.

    Now, seeing how this dragging on could get ugly fast, back to Personal Woes and Advice. Agreed?
    Last edited by Worlok; 2012-07-07 at 11:25 AM. Reason: Backpedaling?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Worlok View Post
    One thing that might be important to note, though, is that in a vein quite similar to how mental illness, itself, is stigmatised and trivialised in the public eye, the field of psychology and mental health is potentially one of the ones most people are afraid to actually get into, because it still carries this stigma of being exclusively a thing for people who studied and researched it for some twelve years straight, at least to the best of my knowledge, and thus the "best" most can do is hazard an (un)educated guess or look for simple shorthand basics to base their ideas off of.

    Consider the following, if you would: Those that don't know squat make guesses, believing they are to do something, anything; those that like to pretend they know more than they do form "theories", which are the same wild guesses stuffed up with some "facts" and "working knowledge"; those that like to pretend they know less than they do or assume everyone else already did the same and they could thus not possibly change anything, accept those "theories" as fact or working knowledge for (perceived) lack of an alternative; those that would otherwise have to make guesses then merrily jump on the bandwagon in order to have something, anything, that they can do; those that do know, lastly, are often divided in their interpretation of their knowledge, and thus can take some time before they do something, all of the aforementioned processes naturally dependant on conscience and interests, quite individually. Vicious cycle? Yes. But one that affects everyone even only partially involved.
    I disagree that it's impossible, or even that it (should be) seen as impossible to get into without years and years of studying. Personally, I have taken 2 psychology classes (psych 101, which taught me next to nothing I didn't already know, and psych of gender, which was completely unrelated to this debate), but have made it a point to read books (not textbooks, those are boring) independently, as well as talking with friends and family who suffer from ADD, depression, autism-spectrum disorders, bipolar disorder, eating disorders, and other mental illnesses (from fully controlled by medication to entirely untreated, amongst the various conditions). Between these attempts to gain information, and the simple recognition that you suggested - a lack of knowledge personally - I think I've gotten to the point that, even if I can't directly relate to how they're feeling/thinking about things, I can at least get into the same general area, at least enough to have a reasonable conversation with them. It's not that hard to do, and I think people have a responsibility to themselves and others to do their best to improve their knowledge on such a wide-spread and significant issue.

    But I don't know if I could understand what it's like, I can only reliably understand what it's like on the "other" side.
    Without repeating myself excessively here, you CAN get a (vague, perhaps) understanding of what it's like by reading and talking to people who have more experience with it. Either first-hand ("I have X") or second-hand ("My friend has X") can be a good starting point.

    I'm trying to say that statements like the "Everyone" are honest mistakes or stupidity as often as or hopefully more often than intentional insults. And that, at least in my case, the former was true, making it a jarring experience to hear people speak of forming indoctrination squads and requesting "to get to be as abusive as I see fit"(*) about it, like someone actually did. Call it a force of habit, a cultural thing or an occupational hazard, maybe, but that kind of thing registers poorly with me, joke or not.
    As the "someone" you refer to, I feel like I should explain a few things about the comment you're referring to here. First off, it was intended, primarily, as a joke (well, everything beyond volunteering for WarKitty's request). However, I still stand by the severity with which I see those comments ("everyone gets sad, so just get over it", as a gross paraphrase, which has a tendency to be how it's heard). Speaking as someone who has many friends and several family members with mental disorders, along with (very mild, most people don't realize it until I tell them) Asperger's myself, I know how hurtful those comments can be. Between that and the over-simplification that they entail ("well, depression is just severe sadness, and everyone gets sad, so it shouldn't be too hard to make you feel better"), I take a lot of offense to that kind of comment. More than I should take in some cases? Perhaps. But I still stand by that type of response, given how hurtful it is to the people who are the 'targets' of such comments and the people close to them.


    I recognize that you did not intend to trigger these reactions, but they did get triggered. I agree that moving on from this is probably best at this point (take it to PM if you feel the need to respond to something I said).
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    smile Re: Personal Woes and Advice 2

    Ialdaboth, I do not know you or your experience at all. I do know that almost everyone can do *something* to try to improve one's lot. Maybe the attempt will be small, and maybe not always successful: but to continue to try to improve is the indicator of effort.

    A person dealing with a tragedy, disability or illness, or a series of challenges, might have to focus for a time on very basic things, such as personal hygiene, nutrition, and other basic self-care. Over time, one tries to add more responsibility to the list, like going to work or school. The point is not where you are on the list, but doing the tasks consistantly and well (not perfectly, just consistantly and well), so that you can add to your list.

    If you do not feel you are a reliable judge of what you can do, it is good to go to a trusted friend or doctor for insight. But remember that the words, "I think you can do more," are not the same as "I think you are lazy."

    Also, when one has been "stuck" in depression for a while, it is like one's batteries have died. That's not laziness. That's just needing a jump start. The best jump start I know of is an exciting change. That might be hard for you to imagine at this time, but do try to imagine what one might be.

    For me, it was returning to school. Whatever it is that brings even a slight smile or flush of hope to your being ... find a way, even a small way, to pursue that.

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