"...So, what are we doing?"

[Lhurgyof]

There's nothing I hate to hear more as a DM than "what are we doing?"

I don't know, I told you what's going on, it's up to you to tell me what your characters are doing, I'm not here to lead you on a leash.

Many of my players have played in railroading games before, and have said that they don't like it, but sometimes they have trouble deciding what to do, as if I haven't given enough hints or directions. And they say it in a way as if to accuse me, like it's my fault they're not doing anything.

It either makes me feel like they're not paying attention or are not "into" the game that much.

Another thing I greatly dislike is when players say "well I guess I have to do X."
I like explaining to them that no, they don't have to do anything. It's up to them to decide what to do. I feel at times like some of my players really, really want to be railroaded and go through the motions, but I know my other players just hate playing that way.

So, with the rant over, what do you think? Have you ever had these troubles with your PC's?

[Shadowknight12]

This is a common problem. Your players are not motivated. They are not motivated because you are not offering them anything they find particularly interesting or worthwhile. I made a post in a similar thread, lemme quote it:

You have two main ways of doing this. Obviously, the one that requires the most effort will yield the better results.

A) Get to know your players. This is the one I do, because it yields the best results. Talk to each player outside the game, one on one, and find out the things they like, the stuff that gets them motivated, why they play, and so on. Then tailor your game to that. This, obviously, requires a great deal of time and effort, but it's guaranteed to provide the best results.

B) Copy successful works. Rip off everything that's popular with your group, and do so shamelessly.

Now, this is assuming you mean to say "How do I get players interested in playing the game" and not "How do I get players interested in the things I create for them." If you mean the latter, then it's a whole other kettle of fish.

In order to motivate your players, either shamelessly appeal to what you already know they like, or take time to find out their preferences and offer them that.

Motivation lies in offering someone something tempting. Ask any succubus, you cannot tempt someone without knowing what floats their boat.

[Gensh]

That's a pretty awful feeling, yeah. It's especially bad when it's not that no one is doing anything but you've actually got one player who is, and everyone else blames them for taking the spotlight and then accuses you of favoritism. Of course the last time it happened, I was fortunate enough to be able to reply that their claims were ridiculous, considering they were letting the tank solve all the puzzles and do all the socializing, even when they were in one of the other character's homeland. Well, that and the whole "your god appears to you and says so-and-so." Some players, it seems, really can't act on their own, even when they have valid in-character justification.

[Katana_Geldar]

I like to to once around the table a few times and ask people what they are doing. If something is more involved than a simple sentence (involves a diceroll) then we come back to them.

[Fatebreaker]

I don't know you or your players, so take this with a grain of salt, but...

Your players could be caught in an awkward part of the learning process. They know they don't like railroading, but they either don't know what they do like or they don't know how to get there.

Ask yourself whether you can more clearly identify options for your players. For example:

"You've arrived at the town square. From here, interesting places appear to include a blacksmith surrounded by people shouting, a tavern filled with truly bad singing, some weird freestanding gate with creepy runes, and a path leading to an ominous castle on the cliff side. Numerous back alleys lead away to who knows what. What do you do?"

You're not railroading them. They have options. The options are clear. They even have an option to go "off the rails" thanks to the back alleys. This style might help them grow as gamers.

[Lhurgyof]

Thanks for all the input guys, unfortunately it's quite late so I'll have to wait until tomorrow for replies.

[Endarire]

My answer to this was to build a robust campaign setting where, in the first mission, the group will get plenty of leads (and rumors!) as to what's happening in the world, assuming they take the time to talk.

If they don't, there's a main quest anyway.

The Metaphysical Revolution is here!

[CGforever!]

My old IRL group had this problem. They all came from video games, and it was tough to shake them out of that mindset.

I personally think that they think there is a certain thing they're supposed to do, and if they aren't sure what it is, they don't do anything at all. Maybe your group is like this. Tell them that there is no "right" way, and that something is better than nothing.

[TheDarkSaint]

I think if we DM's stop for a moment and think about needs, its easy to find ways to motivate PC's.

The first motivation is money. You need it for shelter, food, equipment, weapons. I find too many DM's just over load on money at the beginning and remove that need almost entirely. I have a current character in a game sitting on almost 30k worth of gold coins. I've never had to spend one on rent, food, equipment, bribes....

Food becomes a big priority if they are taking Con damage from it every day.

At mid-levels, they are probably going to be pretty well established. Then you should look at needs that everyday people have. We need companionship. We need friends. We need love. We need to feel productive and valuable.

It's an old trope to go after a PC's family, but it can be effective if you've spent the time as a DM using them as NPC's to interact with the Party. A father who expresses pride in his son's ability as an artificer is a powerful hook if he gets kidnapped. Give them wives/husbands, children to be part ofa family.

Recognition for what they have done is powerful as well. Beyond just a king saying "nice job", I'd have NPC's in awe of them, they are invited to noble balls and so forth. Make them feel important. It's addictive and they truely get angry when a bard comes along and sings bad stuff about them. Great hook.

High levels are problimatic as anything they need, they can get or already have. So, it becomes about desire.


I keep a time matrix of what goes on in my world. Bad guy do bad things on certain days. PC's usually get some wiff of it, but if they don't follow up, bad thing happens. If they stop it, bad guy notices them and adjusts accordingly.

[valadil]

Money, food, gear, family, and fame.

Those are good starting points. But they apply to any PC in the world. Ideally you want to find something that appeals uniquely to the PCs at the table.

[Crow]

Some characters, much like some people, need to be lead around on a leash.

Maybe it's coincidence, but I've noticed this with more of my JRPG-influenced friends than with others.

[Weimann]

If the setting your playing in is in any way known to the players, and not just a generic thing you make up as you go, the Motivation mechanic can help a lot here. Let the players pick a Motivation for their characters at character creation, detailing a goal or aspiration for the character. Reward them when they manage to attain it, provided it was a sufficiently interesting ride. A free level or something.

[Katana_Geldar]

The DMG2 for 4e has a very good set of pages about group storytelling and how to get the characters involved in the game.

There are also games that rely on player investment and creation. My group is about to start playing The Dresden Files and the first thing we did was create a supernatural version of our city. This gives the GM something to work with and our characters a way of being directly involved There's also a sense of ownership which is very liberating, this is our world and we can create as we go what is needed.

[nedz]

I think that you may be worrying about this a little too much.

"...So, what are we doing?" could simply be a means of starting a discussion within the party as to what they are going to do next. This seems fine to me, though that could just be the way that you put it.

The players need to realise that, in a sandbox game, if they do nothing, then nothing happens. Now, you can't tell them this, they just have to figure it out for themselves. Note that it may take a lot of nothing happening before they take control, but they will get there in the end - provided that they have the space.

You should provide distractions - role-playing moments, random encounters - that sort of thing. These should be used to flesh out your world. There should also be rumours of far off events in which they probably ought to take an interest, especially when these start to come nearer to home. Eventually they will get it, eventually.

[Katana_Geldar]

A better question is to ask each individual player "What are you doing?" once you give them the situation.

I always do this in my games, even in con games. They have roles, they have motivations, the have a situation and setting, so what are they doing right now? Most people with at least half a brain cell will come up with something even if it is "I am sleeping".

[Jay R]

Part of the problem is that "railroad plot" has more than one meaning. There is a railroad plot in the sense that there is a specific quest that has to be completed, and the players cannot choose a different plot, but they can approach it in numerous ways, and there is a railroad plot in the sense that they must go through a particular door next, and they cannot get through that door any way but shouting out "November!" (Anybody else remember Clickclicks?)

Many players who hate railroad plots still want to be given a quest.

[nedz]

A better question is to ask each individual player "What are you doing?" once you give them the situation.

I always do this in my games, even in con games. They have roles, they have motivations, the have a situation and setting, so what are they doing right now? Most people with at least half a brain cell will come up with something even if it is "I am sleeping".

I do this a lot. Especially when they are being indecisive or at the start of an encounter, at least ones which aren't the roll initiative kind.

I'm not sure how it interacts with the players asking this though ?
This could get a little silly.

[Lhurgyof]

If the setting your playing in is in any way known to the players, and not just a generic thing you make up as you go, the Motivation mechanic can help a lot here. Let the players pick a Motivation for their characters at character creation, detailing a goal or aspiration for the character. Reward them when they manage to attain it, provided it was a sufficiently interesting ride. A free level or something.

See, this is a big problem. I've noticed some PC's don't really create much back stories and just play builds they want... and thusly they don't really develop much and aren't involved.

Some of my PC's are just fine, but a couple ones don't really have a character motivation. They expect me to make their back story, etc. So I do my best to motivate them in the world, but I guess they don't really bite.


The PC's do have a main quest that I've given them, and they get sidetracked by odd jobs from now and then, so it's pretty typical, but there are times when some players just don't do anything. I have a rather large plot that works whether the PC's involve themselves or not. I know where the BBEG is and what he's doing, where the important NPC's are and what type of critters are doing what where. But if the PC's sit in town and do nothing, even when they do have a quest it becomes an issue. Maybe they're just not paying attention.

[Weimann]

See, this is a big problem. I've noticed some PC's don't really create much back stories and just play builds they want... and thusly they don't really develop much and aren't involved.

Some of my PC's are just fine, but a couple ones don't really have a character motivation. They expect me to make their back story, etc. So I do my best to motivate them in the world, but I guess they don't really bite.

I can see the problem, and while I'd say that it's not so much a matter of back story as forward vision, it's two ends of the same coin. Again, I must ask, is the setting in general known to them? Is it interesting to them?

The PC's do have a main quest that I've given them, and they get sidetracked by odd jobs from now and then, so it's pretty typical, but there are times when some players just don't do anything. I have a rather large plot that works whether the PC's involve themselves or not. I know where the BBEG is and what he's doing, where the important NPC's are and what type of critters are doing what where. But if the PC's sit in town and do nothing, even when they do have a quest it becomes an issue. Maybe they're just not paying attention.

The bolded part. Could that be the problem? The thing with Motivations is that the players essentially create their own quest. Even if the players might grind to a halt at places, you still know they are interested in the big picture.

Also, if the antagonist is fleshed out, can't he move on his own accord. Remind the PC that time is of the essence, either by telling them or (better) by making them overhead gossip or seeing hints that their enemy is on the move. If the PCs still want to waste their time, let them. They'll lose, but that was their choice.

[nedz]

I can see the problem, and while I'd say that it's not so much a matter of back story as forward vision, it's two ends of the same coin ...

I'm not sure that this is quite that general. I have a player who never makes a back-story, but is very pro-active. I have another who is very keen on back-story/character diary etc. but can faff around quite a bit.

[Jay R]

Player: ...So, what are we doing?
DM: You're rooting around in the garbage looking for something to eat.
Player: What? My character would never do that!
DM: OK, change of rules. From now on, I just describe the situation, and you decide what your characters do. Is that better?

[Katana_Geldar]

I like that!

[Riverdance]

Player: ...So, what are we doing?
DM: You're rooting around in the garbage looking for something to eat.
Player: What? My character would never do that!
DM: OK, change of rules. From now on, I just describe the situation, and you decide what your characters do. Is that better?

Ooh, I also like that! I am totally going to use that!

My old IRL group had this problem. They all came from video games, and it was tough to shake them out of that mindset.

I personally think that they think there is a certain thing they're supposed to do, and if they aren't sure what it is, they don't do anything at all. Maybe your group is like this. Tell them that there is no "right" way, and that something is better than nothing.

Yeah, I've found that video games have affected my own roleplaying in this way, so than I feel like a hypocrite when I get annoyed with my players for asking that question. It's a tough rut to break out of. Curse you Skyrim! I should never have fallen in love with you in the first place! Look at what you've done to my relationship with my old friends, the tabletop systems!