The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[Rizban]

I am bringing another question to this topic-table.

The question is: We have Spellshaper. Now, I am trying to make its Psionic Equivalent. However... due to the way Psionics work, it is rather quite difficult. Do you people have any advice, ideas or suggestion how to do it?

Also, this is just an idea of mine but... Worldshaker. Be the biggest... How about some PrC that goes the other way, towards becoming smaller and having special options due to it? ...Actually, what would it even be called...

Swarmheart?

[Yasahiro]

Well, this will be very late question considering how long it's been since it existed but...

Evolutionist Anomaly and his Anomalous Ascendance. When he changes type, he does not get benefits associated with the Mutant Ascendancy, but do you gain traits of the type you turn into or do you only qualify as such for purposes of spells and such? I mean, would changing into elemental type give you immunity to critical hits and poisons or just count you as elemental for spells and feats?

[Necroticplague]

Well, this will be very late question considering how long it's been since it existed but...

Evolutionist Anomaly and his Anomalous Ascendance. When he changes type, he does not get benefits associated with the Mutant Ascendancy, but do you gain traits of the type you turn into or do you only qualify as such for purposes of spells and such? I mean, would changing into elemental type give you immunity to critical hits and poisons or just count you as elemental for spells and feats?

Yes. It doesn't say you don't gain the traits of the creature, so you gain them, like normal when you change types.

[Omnicrat]

If gestalting two classes that give mutation progression, do mutations count as an ability like sneak attack, in which you take the best progression, or spellcasting in which you take both progressions?

[EdroGrimshell]

I asked if I could use the mutations for this and I got it up and running. Been up a few days now but only just started getting rolling with some advise. So, I'm linking the Vessel here so you can have a look Draken.

[Hanuman]

Few questions about the RAI of the Sign teraomorphism:

Sign: Where the evolutionist goes he is announced by disaster, and catastrophe is what is left behind. The evolutionist continuously emits a Sign of the Apocalypse (Elder Evils, pg. 7) with a radius of 10 miles per mutator level, centered on himself, this ability cannot be deactivated. The sign can be chosen from any of the existing signs, or perhaps the player could develop a new sign to be his mark. Whenever a sign would demand a save, it uses the listed DC for the sign or the DC for mutations (based on charisma) whichever is higher. Normally, the evolutionist’s sign will be set to its Faint power, however, by concentrating on it as a standard action, he can bring the sign’s power up to Moderate, and by concentrating on it as a full round action, he can bring the sign’s power up to Strong.

(Trigger) Does using a Moderate or Strong effect trigger when using the action if it usually triggers at the start of the day or at an interval?
(Duration) How long does the effect last? If the effect has a stated duration does it only persist while concentrating and using up your actions?
(Interval) In the case that an effect happens every 1d4 days, does that become the recharge duration for it? Or does duration and interval work together to make a resource such as if it had a 1 hour duration you could concentrate for an amount of time equal to the duration, split up as you wish within that interval?

Thanks, please offer your thoughts, guys!

[Yasahiro]

Has there ever been a mutation list or such for Deathless?

Their main issue is that positive energy is rarely resisted and things rarely have immunity to it, unless they are other evolutionists, hm

[Draken]

I asked if I could use the mutations for this and I got it up and running. Been up a few days now but only just started getting rolling with some advise. So, I'm linking the Vessel here so you can have a look Draken.

Sorry for the delayed response Edro, I took a look and it seemed fine if unusably incomplete (at the time I checked, haven't looked since).

Few questions about the RAI of the Sign teraomorphism:



(Trigger) Does using a Moderate or Strong effect trigger when using the action if it usually triggers at the start of the day or at an interval?
(Duration) How long does the effect last? If the effect has a stated duration does it only persist while concentrating and using up your actions?
(Interval) In the case that an effect happens every 1d4 days, does that become the recharge duration for it? Or does duration and interval work together to make a resource such as if it had a 1 hour duration you could concentrate for an amount of time equal to the duration, split up as you wish within that interval?

Thanks, please offer your thoughts, guys!

Activating a higher tier Sign only causes its effects to crop up while the concentration is taking place. If a sign's effects take place at specific intervals, you need to empower it at the right moment and for the whole time you want it empowered. It is simply not a fire-and-forget effect.

Also as I explained to you over Steam. Sign isn't a combat power. Sign is the apex of douchebagness. It has very little purpose besides ruining the lives of everyone for miles around.

Has there ever been a mutation list or such for Deathless?

Their main issue is that positive energy is rarely resisted and things rarely have immunity to it, unless they are other evolutionists, hm

There was an adaptation of the Undead List to shiny themes as a Band-Aid for that.

Immunities and Resistances are far from balancing factors to any type of damage anyway. They are just restraints to the usability of that damage type, more often than not. Sonic isn't a better damage type than fire in actual combat for any reason besides the fact that it is much less likely to do absolutely nothing.

[Yasahiro]

Was that Band Aid done by you or someone else? Just asking so I know what to look for. I mean, the one I saw had the Positon Smite and Positon Touch be different stuff and... dunno. Made odd.

Also:

Like any sapient magic item, the docent has an ego score (2 + total mental ability score bonuses

Ability score bonuses? But bonuses from mutations, from the every 4 level point, inherent bonuses... which bonuses is it?

[EdroGrimshell]

Sorry for the delayed response Edro, I took a look and it seemed fine if unusably incomplete (at the time I checked, haven't looked since).

It has since been updated and has Harrowings to help it out. The Links are easier to connect to as is the ability to resist corruption, new abilities to speed up connecting to Links were added, and an ability to tone down the fatigue/exhaustion from the links being severed was added. I still need more harrowings, but there are enough for playtesting now.

[Hanuman]

Activating a higher tier Sign only causes its effects to crop up while the concentration is taking place. If a sign's effects take place at specific intervals, you need to empower it at the right moment and for the whole time you want it empowered. It is simply not a fire-and-forget effect.

Thanks, that is much clearer!

[Draken]

Was that Band Aid done by you or someone else? Just asking so I know what to look for. I mean, the one I saw had the Positon Smite and Positon Touch be different stuff and... dunno. Made odd.

Strictly speaking, nobody wrote anything. The idea was simply thrown around for a few swapped names as well as trading all negative energy mentions for positive energy mentions, as well as other effects (such as darkness and desecration) for the equivalent "good" effects (aka: Light and Consecration).

Ability score bonuses? But bonuses from mutations, from the every 4 level point, inherent bonuses... which bonuses is it?

That should actually say ability score modifiers. It is just of a reiteration of the default rules for intelligent magical items.

[Orderic]

If gestalting two classes that give mutation progression, do mutations count as an ability like sneak attack, in which you take the best progression, or spellcasting in which you take both progressions?

This is something I would like to know as well, since I currently have some people who want to take two mutator classes at the same time.

[qazzquimby]

Could you explain how balance with limits on how many times a mutation can be taken works?
As I understand it, if stronger mutations can be taken fewer times, you can still just take all mutations with harder caps for more benefit from each mutation. Any time I try to use this work for reference or conversion I get stuck on that.

[Anachronity]

Am I right in understanding that the "may be taken once per x levels" clause in most mutations ignores the prerequisite level (thus evolve talent could be taken at 3rd, 4th, 8th, 12h...)? It seems like it should be Mutator Level minus required level, and then divided by x and rounded up (thus evolve talent would be available at 3rd, 7th, 11th...). It seems like the latter should be the case, but that isn't how it's worded.

Anomalous Mutation and Azure Form can be used to get floating feats, and those can be scary; floating SLA's and Psi-likes even moreso.

Psi-like abilities are typically stronger than their power level would indicate because they are automatically augmented to the maximum number of powerpoints. Allowing a mutator to potentially gain at-will usage of a 1st-level psionic power by level 9 (using Psychic Capacity and a not-unreasonable 20 Int, given that mutator has numerous ways to pump stats) is much more powerful than allowing them to do the same with a spell-like ability (and yet strangely it's easier to get at-will 1st-level psi-likes than spell-likes with your tables). Given the large number of mutations per level, a mutator psion would blow a normal psion out of the water at early levels with both number of powers known and number of powers per day. Imagine having Vigor at-will for 45 bonus hitpoints refreshable as a standard action.

Allowing the same limb to make both a slam and a claw attack is very weird, but not necessarily broken. The closest thing to a standard convention for slams is the one-slam two-slam rule: a creature with one slam attack does not use its arms to make the attack (it's more like a full-body check) while a creature with two slams (such as a giant) does. At any rate, allowing slams and claws to stack on the same limb is not necessary when you can grow extra limbs.

Nimble Form, Powerful Form, Resilient Form, and their mental cousins seem like they should be basic mutations rather than innate mutations. It might also be best to mash all six of them up into one single mutation that can give +2/+1 to any ability and check, but not the same one more than once until at least one other attribute has been improved. Then change the frequency to once/3 levels. As-is a single-level dip of mutator can get you +2 to all ability scores and +1 to all ability and skill checks, which is definitely worth at least +1 LA. The fact that you also get a d8 hit die makes it even worse.

Consider giving fewer mutations per level (a lot fewer). Thirteen psi-like abilities is a bit much by level 4, and you still have enough left over to grab a high will save, a +2 int, +4 natural armor, and keep your manifester level on-track. Your low-level psion friend can go cry in a corner until 9th level or so.

The DC increases from Mutant Ascendancy are too much. by 10th level that's a DC 26 on your 4th-level illusion or enchantment SLA with the Fey Ascendancy, assuming a 16 starting Cha, two Cha boosts, Ability Focus taken with a floating feat, and a +4 Cloak of Cha. The highest Will Save you're probably gonna see at that level is a cleric or druid of the same level, who will have maybe a +15 save at 20 Wis and with a cloak of resistance +3, for only a 50% chance to save. Anyone else is a lost cause. That isn't much commitment on your part (6 of your 42 mutations, 16k gold, and either Anomalous Mutation or Azure Form) and not everyone you face is going to be a saving throw-minded cleric.

I would review some of your other mutations.

-Quills states that it is considered a natural attack, but never states for what purpose (or what happens when you attack with it, since you are able to do so as-worded). The quills also never fall out without a potentially very high heal check, and the way that die increases work you can be giving them a -10 (on average) to attacks, saves, and skill checks with 3d6 quills every time they hit you by level 8 (you never specify how the die increases should work past 1d6, so I assume they use the increased weapon damage by size table). You also never specify what happens after you get past colossal size). Quills should be safely removable with a successful heal check (like howler quills) and cause damage with an unsuccessful check, rather than being impossible to remove without the heal check. Impale becomes death in a round or two because of the stacking penalties, probably moreso than you intended. It also never describes how an impaled opponent may free itself; though it is presumably done with a grapple check, it is important to know what state of grappling it is in once it succeeds that check (is it still grappled, does it go free?).

-You never indicate how Spines interact with precision damage or the like. That's also quite a few attack rolls to make. I would suggest making it work like the Manyshot feat, but with the number of spines based on how many times you've taken the mutation rather than what your BAB is.



Those are just a few points I've happened to notice. I tend to be problem-oriented, so I apologize if I give you the impression of disliking the class due to focusing on the negatives. Overall you have a great concept which allows a lot of cool characters to be made. The natural attacks in particular are handled more reasonably than in most similar systems.

[Draken]

This is something I would like to know as well, since I currently have some people who want to take two mutator classes at the same time.

This question was asked of me once and I recommended that they be stacked, while also mentioning that mutator level is singular for the character and independent of his classes (and also limited by his character level), thus mutations can't be taken repeatedly "on different classes" in order to stack them beyond intended levels.

I have also warned that due to the nature of its mechanics the evolutionist has always been a troublesome little sample for gestalt. It is quite simply too good at shoring up any holes the sideclass might have in its action economy and overall lacks. So make of that what you will.

Could you explain how balance with limits on how many times a mutation can be taken works?
As I understand it, if stronger mutations can be taken fewer times, you can still just take all mutations with harder caps for more benefit from each mutation. Any time I try to use this work for reference or conversion I get stuck on that.

I am not following what the difficulty is here. Certain mutations have a hard limit to how many times they can be taken, along with the limit on how quickly further iterations can be taken and sometimes also a limit on how early they can be taken.

Am I right in understanding that the "may be taken once per x levels" clause in most mutations ignores the prerequisite level (thus evolve talent could be taken at 3rd, 4th, 8th, 12h...)? It seems like it should be Mutator Level minus required level, and then divided by x and rounded up (thus evolve talent would be available at 3rd, 7th, 11th...). It seems like the latter should be the case, but that isn't how it's worded.

It is correct that the clause ignores the prerequisite level. The prerequisite level is solely meant to put a minimum level in when these abilities can be first taken due to a personal belief that they are not proper for a character to have before such levels.

Anomalous Mutation and Azure Form can be used to get floating feats, and those can be scary; floating SLA's and Psi-likes even moreso.

Psi-like abilities are typically stronger than their power level would indicate because they are automatically augmented to the maximum number of powerpoints. Allowing a mutator to potentially gain at-will usage of a 1st-level psionic power by level 9 (using Psychic Capacity and a not-unreasonable 20 Int, given that mutator has numerous ways to pump stats) is much more powerful than allowing them to do the same with a spell-like ability (and yet strangely it's easier to get at-will 1st-level psi-likes than spell-likes with your tables). Given the large number of mutations per level, a mutator psion would blow a normal psion out of the water at early levels with both number of powers known and number of powers per day. Imagine having Vigor at-will for 45 bonus hitpoints refreshable as a standard action.

The psion gets something much more powerful than any number of fully augmented at-will low level powers, which is high level powers at appropriate levels.

And even with the floating spells/powers a full-caster/manifester evolutionist build is quite demanding in mutations and limits heavily what else you can do.

Allowing the same limb to make both a slam and a claw attack is very weird, but not necessarily broken. The closest thing to a standard convention for slams is the one-slam two-slam rule: a creature with one slam attack does not use its arms to make the attack (it's more like a full-body check) while a creature with two slams (such as a giant) does. At any rate, allowing slams and claws to stack on the same limb is not necessary when you can grow extra limbs.

I am not going to lie, I struggled with writing those lines and at some point just gave up and writing down limitations on body structure and just left the hard limit on number of attacks.

Most of the write-ups were convoluted, arcane and quite honestly incomprehensible.

Nimble Form, Powerful Form, Resilient Form, and their mental cousins seem like they should be basic mutations rather than innate mutations. It might also be best to mash all six of them up into one single mutation that can give +2/+1 to any ability and check, but not the same one more than once until at least one other attribute has been improved. Then change the frequency to once/3 levels. As-is a single-level dip of mutator can get you +2 to all ability scores and +1 to all ability and skill checks, which is definitely worth at least +1 LA. The fact that you also get a d8 hit die makes it even worse.

Basic mutations deal with formless system terms of the D&D 3.5 engine, for the most part. Whereas Innates deal with things you can translate into some form of body structure. This is all that the differentiation really means. I didn't want to even try to start imagining what a base attack bonus boost would look like.

Consider giving fewer mutations per level (a lot fewer). Thirteen psi-like abilities is a bit much by level 4, and you still have enough left over to grab a high will save, a +2 int, +4 natural armor, and keep your manifester level on-track. Your low-level psion friend can go cry in a corner until 9th level or so.

You can't have 13 psi-likes at level 4. You can have 13 psi-likes at level 13. To quote myself.

Mutations
Mutations are split into six groups: Basic, Innate, Extraordinaire, Supernatural, Spell-like and Psi-like. All evolutionists have access to these mutations. In addition to these, there are a number of special lists of mutations accessible only to evolutionists of specific creature types or who take specific feats.
Unless otherwise noted, a character can only take the same mutation up to a number of times equal to his mutator level. A character’s mutator level is equal to the sum of his levels in mutation-granting classes plus any racial hit dice or levels in racial paragon classes or monster classes he might have. Mutator level also determines the power of some mutations, and whenever a mutation allows a save, the DC is 10 + half the character’s mutator level + relevant ability modifier (see the specific mutation for this).

The DC increases from Mutant Ascendancy are too much. by 10th level that's a DC 26 on your 4th-level illusion or enchantment SLA with the Fey Ascendancy, assuming a 16 starting Cha, two Cha boosts, Ability Focus taken with a floating feat, and a +4 Cloak of Cha. The highest Will Save you're probably gonna see at that level is a cleric or druid of the same level, who will have maybe a +15 save at 20 Wis and with a cloak of resistance +3, for only a 50% chance to save. Anyone else is a lost cause. That isn't much commitment on your part (6 of your 42 mutations, 16k gold, and either Anomalous Mutation or Azure Form) and not everyone you face is going to be a saving throw-minded cleric.

50-50 on success/failure sounds ok to me. Also, balancing is really not PvP oriented.

I would review some of your other mutations.

-Quills states that it is considered a natural attack, but never states for what purpose (or what happens when you attack with it, since you are able to do so as-worded). The quills also never fall out without a potentially very high heal check, and the way that die increases work you can be giving them a -10 (on average) to attacks, saves, and skill checks with 3d6 quills every time they hit you by level 8 (you never specify how the die increases should work past 1d6, so I assume they use the increased weapon damage by size table). You also never specify what happens after you get past colossal size). Quills should be safely removable with a successful heal check (like howler quills) and cause damage with an unsuccessful check, rather than being impossible to remove without the heal check. Impale becomes death in a round or two because of the stacking penalties, probably moreso than you intended. It also never describes how an impaled opponent may free itself; though it is presumably done with a grapple check, it is important to know what state of grappling it is in once it succeeds that check (is it still grappled, does it go free?).

"X is considered a natural attack" is meant to state outright that the ability is a viable target for spells, feats and other mutations that interact with natural attacks in some manner, quills cannot, in fact, be used as part of an active attack, they are purely reactive. I will have to reword the heal check for removal, it was most certainly a mistake on my part.

Impale simply gives you the benefit of not suffering the grapple penalties for having an enemy grappled. Other than that it follows all the same rules for grappling and no court of law will blame either of us for not having full comprehension of those.

-You never indicate how Spines interact with precision damage or the like. That's also quite a few attack rolls to make. I would suggest making it work like the Manyshot feat, but with the number of spines based on how many times you've taken the mutation rather than what your BAB is.

Spines are multiple attacks, they interact with anything in much the same manner as multiple attacks would.

Manyshot, I should mention, is one of many dreadful feats and I don't consider "on par with it" to be an acceptable balance point.

Those are just a few points I've happened to notice. I tend to be problem-oriented, so I apologize if I give you the impression of disliking the class due to focusing on the negatives. Overall you have a great concept which allows a lot of cool characters to be made. The natural attacks in particular are handled more reasonably than in most similar systems.

Thanks.

[qazzquimby]

I am not following what the difficulty is here. Certain mutations have a hard limit to how many times they can be taken, along with the limit on how quickly further iterations can be taken and sometimes also a limit on how early they can be taken.

Sorry I haven't been clear. I'll try to give an exaggerated example to outline my point.

You have mutation A, that supplies a very small amount of benefit (a generic metric), say 1, to the character, and can be taken any number of times. By taking it at every opportunity, you gain a total of about 80 benefit.

There is also a set of mutations B(0)-B(infinity), each of which supply a large amount of benefit, say 10, but can only be taken once. By taking items from set B at every opportunity, you gain a total of about 800 benefit.

Hopefully that's not too abstract and weird, and I know that the difference in power (if my understanding is correct) isn't anywhere near 10x.

[Magikeeper]

Another way of saying what Qazzquimby is saying:

> Some mutations are powerful, but balance themselves by having very strict X/Level restrictions.
>> There are a good number of these powerful restricted mutations.
>>> Someone who takes every stronger mutation at every opportunity is getting more power per mutation, on average, than someone that doesn't do this.
>>>> Why take the weaker, non-restricted mutations?

Yet another way of saying it is: "Qazzquimby is confused how strict X/level restrictions balance anything when there is no reason to not take the strongest mutations whenever the class allows you to in order to be more powerful than anyone that takes fewer of these high-powered mutations than the class allows."

[Draken]

Sorry I haven't been clear. I'll try to give an exaggerated example to outline my point.

You have mutation A, that supplies a very small amount of benefit (a generic metric), say 1, to the character, and can be taken any number of times. By taking it at every opportunity, you gain a total of about 80 benefit.

There is also a set of mutations B(0)-B(infinity), each of which supply a large amount of benefit, say 10, but can only be taken once. By taking items from set B at every opportunity, you gain a total of about 800 benefit.

Hopefully that's not too abstract and weird, and I know that the difference in power (if my understanding is correct) isn't anywhere near 10x.

Another way of saying what Qazzquimby is saying:

> Some mutations are powerful, but balance themselves by having very strict X/Level restrictions.
>> There are a good number of these powerful restricted mutations.
>>> Someone who takes every stronger mutation at every opportunity is getting more power per mutation, on average, than someone that doesn't do this.
>>>> Why take the weaker, non-restricted mutations?

Yet another way of saying it is: "Qazzquimby is confused how strict X/level restrictions balance anything when there is no reason to not take the strongest mutations whenever the class allows you to in order to be more powerful than anyone that takes fewer of these high-powered mutations than the class allows."

I see.

First of all. A small point of reference that I feel needs to be mentioned. Again. Because I sort of pointed it out in bold letters in a quote on my last post.

By default, any one mutation can be taken up to once per mutator level. So they can't be taken infinitely. Unless your level is infinite. Which is not a real thing that can happen on a meaningful level.

Second of all. There are no mutations that can only be taken once that provide any sort of passive number boost. All numerical boosts are iterative, they need to be taken repeatedly to stack up.

Mutations that can only be taken once, generally speaking, provide some sort of benefit that can't be iterated on. They give a special ability, for instance. This is the case with Pounce, and Trample, and Leaves, and Earth Glide.

I hope this clarifies that. My personal understanding as it stands is that you are worrying over a situation that can't happen due to lack of common ground between the two points of contention.

[qazzquimby]

My argument might have gotten confused behind the exaggerated numbers, since unlimited mutations don't exist (I swear I knew that, just somehow not while writing that post) and once ever mutations are generally special cases.

If you instead compare taking once per level mutations that give small bonuses versus taking once per 4-6 levels or so that give large bonuses, maybe my point will stand.

Or to put it another way, if you consider the ability granted by each mutation to be a benefit that scales to your level, so long as you pay a mutation whenever you are able, a mutation that gives a greater benefit and can be taken less often costs fewer mutations to maintain.

[Draken]

My argument might have gotten confused behind the exaggerated numbers, since unlimited mutations don't exist (I swear I knew that, just somehow not while writing that post) and once ever mutations are generally special cases.

If you instead compare taking once per level mutations that give small bonuses versus taking once per 4-6 levels or so that give large bonuses, maybe my point will stand.

Or to put it another way, if you consider the ability granted by each mutation to be a benefit that scales to your level, so long as you pay a mutation whenever you are able, a mutation that gives a greater benefit and can be taken less often costs fewer mutations to maintain.

Right, that works better.

I do believe that, for the most part, mutations that serve the same overall purpose but scale at different speeds have their own advantages and disadvantages based on the specific nature of the bonus they give. That is their balance point.

[Yasahiro]

Okay, you guys are stuck in a loop.

Here is translation:

I think quazzquimby is referring to the fact that each mutation costs one mutation but benefits are not equal. Having 3 spine mutations vs 3 invisibility mutation. Hell. One mutation can be used for a spell like, bigger ability, higher BAB... OR SUCH THINGS LIKE constant invisibility. CONSTANT. Or more arms, which alread provides one with more attacks at level 4.

It is mostly that mutation does not equal another mutation when you look at the power of some of them.

Is that right?

[Necroticplague]

Because of a lot of the most powerful mutations don't synergize with each other, so going that route just gives you a big grab-bag of random abilities that don't add up to being more powerful than a mutator who picked 'weaker' mutations that synergized to produce something more useful when combined.

[Anachronity]

The psion gets something much more powerful than any number of fully augmented at-will low level powers, which is high level powers at appropriate levels.

And even with the floating spells/powers a full-caster/manifester evolutionist build is quite demanding in mutations and limits heavily what else you can do.

I'm saying that fully augmented low level powers are much closer to high level powers at appropriate levels than is the case for low level and high level spells. The table is out-of-line with the table for arcane spells from the same source. The class should at least be balanced with itself, right? A class should also be balanced for all levels of play, as much as possible (though this is certainly not the case for the Player's Handbook, so I guess you've got me there).

I am not going to lie, I struggled with writing those lines and at some point just gave up and writing down limitations on body structure and just left the hard limit on number of attacks.

Most of the write-ups were convoluted, arcane and quite honestly incomprehensible.

That's a lot of the problem with single-handedly writing a whole new system to be on-par with spellcasting. There's just too many options to need to write for one person not to make mistakes (and I'm not singling you out here, gramarie is not even close to balanced despite all the attention it gets). Honestly this is even apparent in a lot of the real WotC material.

Basic mutations deal with formless system terms of the D&D 3.5 engine, for the most part. Whereas Innates deal with things you can translate into some form of body structure. This is all that the differentiation really means. I didn't want to even try to start imagining what a base attack bonus boost would look like.

It's pretty easy to imagine what it might look like to become better at jumping or hiding, but those are basic mutations. Similarly it would be pretty hard to define exactly how a +2 bonus to Charisma manifests. After a certain point I would think it should also be a matter of logical groupings: basic mutations change the basic stats of your character (or at least that's the impression I got by reading), which I think attributes would qualify for. It may not be what you intended, but it's a lot more clean than saying "these are not basic mutations, but they work exactly like basic mutations anyways".

You can't have 13 psi-likes at level 4. You can have 13 psi-likes at level 13.

Hrm, my mistake. That actually solves a lot of problems right there. Now I feel like that guy who calls psionics broken because they don't know about the 1 psp per level limit

50-50 on success/failure sounds ok to me. Also, balancing is really not PvP oriented.

A cleric can also be a bad guy. The cleric is meant to represent the absolute highest will saves you are likely to find; in reality they will be a good 4+ points lower (not everyone has a +3 cloak of resistance or 20 wisdom). It's not that it's worse than what a wizard/sorcerer could do, it's simply that it requires less commitment.

Spines are multiple attacks, they interact with anything in much the same manner as multiple attacks would.

Manyshot, I should mention, is one of many dreadful feats and I don't consider "on par with it" to be an acceptable balance point.

It's certainly not a great feat, but I think it's better than "dreadful". Feeling obliged to make every new option at least as good as the best options already available is how power creep happens. It's even a little bit better than a totemist's Manticore Belt, and that is one of their best offensive options.

[Draken]

Okay, you guys are stuck in a loop.

Here is translation:

I think quazzquimby is referring to the fact that each mutation costs one mutation but benefits are not equal. Having 3 spine mutations vs 3 invisibility mutation. Hell. One mutation can be used for a spell like, bigger ability, higher BAB... OR SUCH THINGS LIKE constant invisibility. CONSTANT. Or more arms, which alread provides one with more attacks at level 4.

It is mostly that mutation does not equal another mutation when you look at the power of some of them.

Is that right?

Because of a lot of the most powerful mutations don't synergize with each other, so going that route just gives you a big grab-bag of random abilities that don't add up to being more powerful than a mutator who picked 'weaker' mutations that synergized to produce something more useful when combined.

Here is to hoping that Necroticplague's answer is what was desired. This is quite excellent.

I'm saying that fully augmented low level powers are much closer to high level powers at appropriate levels than is the case for low level and high level spells. The table is out-of-line with the table for arcane spells from the same source. The class should at least be balanced with itself, right? A class should also be balanced for all levels of play, as much as possible (though this is certainly not the case for the Player's Handbook, so I guess you've got me there).

I will see about reviewing the numbers.

That's a lot of the problem with single-handedly writing a whole new system to be on-par with spellcasting. There's just too many options to need to write for one person not to make mistakes (and I'm not singling you out here, gramarie is not even close to balanced despite all the attention it gets). Honestly this is even apparent in a lot of the real WotC material.

Truth be told, I always thought that part of the appeal of Gramarie is that system mastery of that extremely convoluted mechanism has amusingly overpowered results.

It's pretty easy to imagine what it might look like to become better at jumping or hiding, but those are basic mutations. Similarly it would be pretty hard to define exactly how a +2 bonus to Charisma manifests. After a certain point I would think it should also be a matter of logical groupings: basic mutations change the basic stats of your character (or at least that's the impression I got by reading), which I think attributes would qualify for. It may not be what you intended, but it's a lot more clean than saying "these are not basic mutations, but they work exactly like basic mutations anyways".

The bonuses to jumping and hiding are innates!

One other reason for the split (that ended up never paning out) was to put "chassis" affecting mutations (BAB, base saves, etc) into a single header for the purposes of a class that did not have access to basics.

Hrm, my mistake. That actually solves a lot of problems right there. Now I feel like that guy who calls psionics broken because they don't know about the 1 psp per level limit

Happens to everyone.

A cleric can also be a bad guy. The cleric is meant to represent the absolute highest will saves you are likely to find; in reality they will be a good 4+ points lower (not everyone has a +3 cloak of resistance or 20 wisdom). It's not that it's worse than what a wizard/sorcerer could do, it's simply that it requires less commitment.

Well, yes. Fair point. That said it does demand commitment. To a specific ascendancy that isn't even a particularly potent creature type, and it only goes for two commonly "nope'd" spell schools.

It's certainly not a great feat, but I think it's better than "dreadful". Feeling obliged to make every new option at least as good as the best options already available is how power creep happens. It's even a little bit better than a totemist's Manticore Belt, and that is one of their best offensive options.

I am fairly sure it is actually on par with Manticore Belt? It is what I modeled it after as I recall (that and the manticore proper).

[Anachronity]

Truth be told, I always thought that part of the appeal of Gramarie is that system mastery of that extremely convoluted mechanism has amusingly overpowered results.

You're probably right, but I would think mach 3 aircraft by level 7 is a bit much. It definitely is more fun than breaking the game with wizardry, though.

EDIT: Honestly I think the problem is that I always try to balance with respect to tiers 3 to 4, while this and gramarie are going for tier 2 or so. Maybe I just need to be more flexible.

Well, yes. Fair point. That said it does demand commitment. To a specific ascendancy that isn't even a particularly potent creature type, and it only goes for two commonly "nope'd" spell schools.

Not to beat a dead horse, but psionics has access to effects from all schools of magic, and aberration is definitely a potent creature type.

I am fairly sure it is actually on par with Manticore Belt? It is what I modeled it after as I recall (that and the manticore proper).

It has a lot more range than the belt, but somehow I didn't even think to check the actual monster entry. It also grows in number of spines slightly faster than the belt, and although the belt can be swapped out more easily on any given day, you still get a lot of mutations while a totemist doesn't get all that many chakra binds. I guess you can call this one a benefit of commitment.

[Draken]

Not to beat a dead horse, but psionics has access to effects from all schools of magic, and aberration is definitely a potent creature type.

Oh. Aberration. Sorry, thought you were talking about the Fey one. I will have to review it as well.

[Anachronity]

Oh. Aberration. Sorry, thought you were talking about the Fey one. I will have to review it as well.

I was talking about both of the ones that add +3 DC. I think you're right that fey is probably okay, though.

[Defiantnight]

Not to beat a dead horse, but psionics has access to effects from all schools of magic, and aberration is definitely a potent creature type.

I mean, as far as I can tell it's not much more powerful than Fey. It just gives darkvision and immunity to Charm Person (so does Fey.. and, actually, every other type, I think.)

Edit: The immunity to Charm Person, I mean.

On another string, the Elemental ascendancy seems to be the best, aside from plant, in terms of what the type grants. Undead is neat, but I feel like there's a lot of anti-undead in D&D, and I seem to remember druids having a lot of control over plants.

I'm also able to tank and/or (Edit:) quickly kill (/edit) nearly every non-spellcasting creature in d&d up to my CR, though I haven't tested this extensively. This is mainly due to Fast Healing 10 and a cold breath weapon of 10d6 (level 14 btw.) I'm not sure if this is intended, but Verdant Servant at maximum PP for no cost, and the ability to have more than one, makes me and my 'posse' of spider-minions practically unstoppable.

Anyone else having a similar experience? My other DM refuses to allow the class (low-magic setting) because of how blatantly powerful it seems.

[Defiantnight]

Also, to my last post, yes, I did optimize it a little to hopefully never die, but still. Fast Healing 10, if nothing hits me for a round or two (Web mutation is good for that) I'm usually good to go.