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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Then I will have to reword it, because Tauric is meant to, as its mechanic effect, change your posture between tall and long (which has effects on reach for large and larger creatures). But it is noteworthy that the Monster Manual tacitly equates "tall" to "biped" and "long" to "quadruped" in page 298.
    Having checked those pages, there doesn't seem to be any reference to tall or long in relation to the entries on speed discussing bipeds and quadruped, still that does seem to fit better for the teratomorph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Elemental Mutations has some interesting things. Currently my greatest trouble is wording a few thing about it (the tier 6 teratomorphism and defining a perfection, pretty much).
    Well, I'd offer my services on helping with the wording if you would care to make use of them.

    As a side note, something I noticed seems to be unmentioned on this version of the evolutionist that I vaguely recall having been explicitly stated previously (likely on an older version though I may have been imagining things). Would be the issue of how mutations that need to be applied to specific things interact with the limit on how many times a given mutation may be taken. For example, if the evolutionist has two natural attacks and an elemental resistance, would it be able to have it twice on each natural attack at level 4, or would the limit on once per 2 levels apply across all natural attack it would be applied to? At present, it would seem to be the latter, though I could see arguments made for the former.

    I also noticed there are some typos in the "Changing sizes and you" sidebar, specifically in the form of some missing 't's.

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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Faerieheart View Post
    "Prerequisite: Any natural weapon.
    Ability Score: None
    Benefit: The evolutionist chooses one of his natural weapons and increases its threat range or its critical multiplier by one. No single natural weapon can have a critical range higher than 18-20 or a multiplier higher than x4. The effects of this mutation do not stack with the Keen enchantment or the Improved Critical feat.
    Further Mutations: -"

    I'm confused is this capable of being taken multiple times or not? And if so on the same weapon? For example base natural attacks are generally 20/x2 could you say take it 4 times and end up with 18-20/x4?
    Further Mutations: What the character gains from taking the mutation more times and how many times the mutation can be taken, if it has any unusual limits. If this entry is left empty, the mutation’s basic benefit is received once more (stacking with itself) whenever the mutation is taken.
    So yes, it can be taken multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    Having checked those pages, there doesn't seem to be any reference to tall or long in relation to the entries on speed discussing bipeds and quadruped, still that does seem to fit better for the teratomorph.
    Like I said, tacitly. Either way, a simple clarification was made.

    Well, I'd offer my services on helping with the wording if you would care to make use of them.
    The teratomorph is based on the elemental's ability to change into vortexes/whirlwinds and the issue is mostly with me trying to decide on details, nothing much. The perfection i am just banging my head for an idea.

    As a side note, something I noticed seems to be unmentioned on this version of the evolutionist that I vaguely recall having been explicitly stated previously (likely on an older version though I may have been imagining things). Would be the issue of how mutations that need to be applied to specific things interact with the limit on how many times a given mutation may be taken. For example, if the evolutionist has two natural attacks and an elemental resistance, would it be able to have it twice on each natural attack at level 4, or would the limit on once per 2 levels apply across all natural attack it would be applied to? At present, it would seem to be the latter, though I could see arguments made for the former.

    I also noticed there are some typos in the "Changing sizes and you" sidebar, specifically in the form of some missing 't's.

    Owrtho
    Each individual mutation has a single 'pool' of number of times it can be taken. These uses are split across all possible iterations he could take of that mutation. A 4th level evolutionist can take Elemental Attack twice, total, across all natural weapons and all damage types. This could be +1d6 to bite and +1d6 to claws or +2d6 to claws. Or +2d6 to four tentacles, for a serious energy damage build.

    Height and length have been fixed.

    Also, there is a new mutation in Extraordinaire. An expansion for bite attacks, Mutilate.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    How's the elemental stuff coming along?
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by WarDragon View Post
    How's the elemental stuff coming along?
    Slow and steady.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    The teratomorph is based on the elemental's ability to change into vortexes/whirlwinds and the issue is mostly with me trying to decide on details, nothing much. The perfection i am just banging my head for an idea.
    Well in any event I look forward to it. Sounds like it will be an interesting set of abilities.

    Though now that I look over the class again, I notice that creatures of a given type can't take the feat to gain mutations for that type. I'd thought there was something stating that having the type allowed you to take those mutations without the feat, but I can't seem to find any mention of that. Would this mean that a construct, for example, can't ever take construct mutations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Each individual mutation has a single 'pool' of number of times it can be taken. These uses are split across all possible iterations he could take of that mutation. A 4th level evolutionist can take Elemental Attack twice, total, across all natural weapons and all damage types. This could be +1d6 to bite and +1d6 to claws or +2d6 to claws. Or +2d6 to four tentacles, for a serious energy damage build.
    That was how I'd been thinking it was, but hadn't been sure. Thank you for the clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Height and length have been fixed.
    Also missing the 't' in "height" on the first line. I'd also forgotten to mention it in my last post, but size down doesn't show any adjustment to natural armour, though the note below suggests that it would reduce it. There is also an empty column in the table making it seem that it may be inadvertently blank.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    Well in any event I look forward to it. Sounds like it will be an interesting set of abilities.

    Though now that I look over the class again, I notice that creatures of a given type can't take the feat to gain mutations for that type. I'd thought there was something stating that having the type allowed you to take those mutations without the feat, but I can't seem to find any mention of that. Would this mean that a construct, for example, can't ever take construct mutations?
    You know how there is a line to that effect in both undead and plant? I dropped the ball on that one. The line has been added to construct.

    Also missing the 't' in "height" on the first line. I'd also forgotten to mention it in my last post, but size down doesn't show any adjustment to natural armour, though the note below suggests that it would reduce it. There is also an empty column in the table making it seem that it may be inadvertently blank.

    Owrtho
    Size down used to have a NA down entry, but I removed it because it caused an odd interaction where the optimal thing to do was to just get as small as you wanted before starting to get any NA mutations. So I just took that entry off. And left an empty extra column in the table by accident. Oh well.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    For the mutations that have Further Mutations left blank, what's the cap on how many times they can be taken? Is it unlimited? That seems like it could get out of hand.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by WarDragon View Post
    For the mutations that have Further Mutations left blank, what's the cap on how many times they can be taken? Is it unlimited? That seems like it could get out of hand.
    While there are a number of silly things that I have overlooked, mostly in writing or clarity. I have not missed basic balance functionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Mutations
    Mutations are split into six groups: Basic, Innate, Extraordinaire, Supernatural, Spell-like and Psi-like. All evolutionists have access to these mutations. In addition to these, there are a number of special lists of mutations accessible only to evolutionists of specific creature types or who take specific feats.
    Unless otherwise noted, a character can only take the same mutation up to a number of times equal to his mutator level. A character’s mutator level is equal to the sum of his levels in mutation-granting classes plus any racial hit dice or levels in racial paragon classes he might have. Mutator level also determines the power of some mutations, and whenever a mutation allows a save, the DC is 10 + half the character’s mutator level + relevant ability modifier (see the specific mutation for this).
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Okay. Up to twenty times is still quite a lot, but I guess it does cut into your other options enough to make it a hard call.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Hm, would a Bloodline Teratomorph be a good option? (using Welknair's improved bloodlines)
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell View Post
    Hm, would a Bloodline Teratomorph be a good option? (using Welknair's improved bloodlines)
    Possibly. But never reaching higher than T-morph III, I think.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    If the evolutionist has more than one natural weapon, he must decide which is the primary and which are the secondary ones upon taking the mutations, that choice can be changed whenever the evolutionist gains new mutations. If the evolutionist has multiple sets of the same natural weapon, only one group (one bite, one pair of claws, etc) can be the primary.
    The evolutionist can have up to one bite and gore per head, one tail, four tentacles, and up to one claw or slam per arm (any combination of these, but no more than one of each per limb), if he chooses to, he may evolve only one claw, tentacle or slam instead of a pair, but each still costs a mutation.
    Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken the evolutionist can chose to improve the damage of one group of existing natural weapon by one step or gain a new natural weapon from the table. This mutation can be taken up to once per two mutator levels.

    Is this saying you can increase a natural weapon an additional 9 times if you focus on it up to lvl 20? If so how's that even work? Is this a size increase? If so 9 times isn't even possible by the chart in most cases? I'm just really confused here.

    Or is the 1st bolded line saying one increase is the limit?

    Some clarification would be good, as is we are getting tail attacks for example that can do 12d8 damage if we go as far as the chart can go. Is it going by an altered progression?

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Hmm, some of my players will be using this (as I may for a monster or two ), so I hope you don't mind if I poke it a bit with a few quetions/observations

    Out of curiosity there are feats granting access to mutations, should it be assumed that these bar them from the others, or are the others still free game?

    When one takes for instance plant Teratomorphisms, then are they locked into those, or can they still use the generic ones at any level?

    Same question for Ascendancy/perfection.

    "Undeadist", Perhaps a Thanatologist?

    Anywho afraid I mostly skimmed, so I can't give an all out critique on every ability, but looks cool sorry if any of these were asked before.
    Last edited by drack; 2012-06-26 at 10:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Does the check bonus from Powerful Form apply to grapples? Does the one from Nimble Form apply to Initiative? Fairly sure the answer to both would be no, but wanted to confirm.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Faerieheart View Post
    If the evolutionist has more than one natural weapon, he must decide which is the primary and which are the secondary ones upon taking the mutations, that choice can be changed whenever the evolutionist gains new mutations. If the evolutionist has multiple sets of the same natural weapon, only one group (one bite, one pair of claws, etc) can be the primary.
    The evolutionist can have up to one bite and gore per head, one tail, four tentacles, and up to one claw or slam per arm (any combination of these, but no more than one of each per limb), if he chooses to, he may evolve only one claw, tentacle or slam instead of a pair, but each still costs a mutation.
    Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken the evolutionist can chose to improve the damage of one group of existing natural weapon by one step or gain a new natural weapon from the table. This mutation can be taken up to once per two mutator levels.

    Is this saying you can increase a natural weapon an additional 9 times if you focus on it up to lvl 20? If so how's that even work? Is this a size increase? If so 9 times isn't even possible by the chart in most cases? I'm just really confused here.

    Or is the 1st bolded line saying one increase is the limit?

    Some clarification would be good, as is we are getting tail attacks for example that can do 12d8 damage if we go as far as the chart can go. Is it going by an altered progression?
    It works exactly like a size increase, or to be even more precise, it works like taking the Improved Natural Weapon feat. And the table that lists increases in the MM (and SRD) is not exhaustive. You can find a more extensive table to that effect in page 28 of the DMG. So if you focused all 10 mutations on tail, you would get 8d6 damage on your tail, with two size increases (or one size increase and one INW feat) you would get up to 12d8 base damage.

    Also, whenever there is a limit on how many times you can take a mutation for any reason, it is made explicit in the further mutations entry.

    Quote Originally Posted by drack View Post
    Hmm, some of my players will be using this (as I may for a monster or two ), so I hope you don't mind if I poke it a bit with a few quetions/observations

    Out of curiosity there are feats granting access to mutations, should it be assumed that these bar them from the others, or are the others still free game?

    When one takes for instance plant Teratomorphisms, then are they locked into those, or can they still use the generic ones at any level?

    Same question for Ascendancy/perfection.

    "Undeadist", Perhaps a Thanatologist?

    Anywho afraid I mostly skimmed, so I can't give an all out critique on every ability, but looks cool sorry if any of these were asked before.
    You will note that the special mutation lists are very, very small. Those are expansions, plain and simple. Taking those feats does not lock you out of the basic list. Taking any of those feats also does not prevent you from taking any of the others.

    And it bears mentioning, while the mutations are found in those lists, they are not inherently tied (appearance-wise) to these types. A warforged with the leaves mutation could very well be sporting solar pannels, for instance.

    Ascendancy/Perfection and teratomorphisms are the same. Taking the feats (or belonging to the right creature type) opens those as options, but you are not forced to take them.

    And those lines under the feats are mostly simple jokes I made. Everyone is an evolutionist.

    Does the check bonus from Powerful Form apply to grapples? Does the one from Nimble Form apply to Initiative? Fairly sure the answer to both would be no, but wanted to confirm.
    Those... Are judgement calls from the DM, I am afraid. The first should usually be no because grapple checks are not strength checks nor strength based skill checks, they are modified attack rolls. The second would usually be yes, because Initiative checks are dexterity checks.
    Last edited by Draken; 2012-06-26 at 11:29 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    I have a question about Verdant Servant mutation.
    It is a spell-like ability mimicking to some extend Astral Construct.

    The question is, can you dispel the Verdant Servant?

    For - Spell-like ability; mimicking power that can be dispelled.

    Against - Creation effect, not summon. Unlimited duration suggesting that it is instantaneous spell with continued effects.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexin View Post
    I have a question about Verdant Servant mutation.
    It is a spell-like ability mimicking to some extend Astral Construct.

    The question is, can you dispel the Verdant Servant?

    For - Spell-like ability; mimicking power that can be dispelled.

    Against - Creation effect, not summon. Unlimited duration suggesting that it is instantaneous spell with continued effects.
    They are not supposed to be dispellable. In fact, it and its related mutations, Budding Creation and Grove, were supernatural until it hit me that they would be supressed by polymorph effects if they stayed (Su), which could cause weird interactions, so I moved them over to the (Sl) group. Until I decide what to do, that one is a call on your DM to define, but probably not dispellable.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    And it bears mentioning, while the mutations are found in those lists, they are not inherently tied (appearance-wise) to these types. A warforged with the leaves mutation could very well be sporting solar pannels, for instance.
    Heh. I love the visual idea of this, although the Leaves mutation would be useless for the warforged, as they don't need food or sleep. I guess Solar Power works the same and would still be useful, though.
    Last edited by Volthawk; 2012-07-01 at 05:36 AM.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    when are you going to add an elemental list??
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by inuyasha View Post
    when are you going to add an elemental list??
    I'd imagine when he finds the time to finish up the Elemental Teratomorphs and mutations.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Oh man, I love this, can't wait to throw one at my players (without warning, of course ). Greatly looking forward to the Outsider list, personally.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Bump.

    Outsider mutations have been aded.

    Also:

    Amorphous received a slight useability change, making it better for grapple builds than it used to be. It also has a special interaction with swalow whole.

    Leaves is no longer a prerequisite for Nourishing Flora.

    If I did not list this before, there is a new extraordinaire mutation in the base list, Mutilate.

    Lastly, the list of prestige classes has been updated and a feat specific to the Malshaper PrC has been added.
    Last edited by Draken; 2012-07-24 at 03:15 PM.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    @Mut6, 12, 18: great changer -> evolve talent x2.
    One free feat every 6 levels as long as you don't buy mut. feats on those levels.

    I'll need to HB some adamantine tips for a spider-droid mutator4.

    Choose one natural attack, that attack ignores 15 points of object hardness, if it already has this mutation ignore 5 more points of hardness and deal +1 damage.

    You may take this mutation once every 6 levels.

    Having a burrow mutation pre-req might do nicely, and under the construct mutation list.
    Last edited by Hanuman; 2012-08-05 at 01:55 AM.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    @Mut6, 12, 18: great changer -> evolve talent x2.
    One free feat every 6 levels as long as you don't buy mut. feats on those levels.
    It is more a specific level thing, really. The overall effect is the same since there is a limit to how many times Evolve Talent can be taken.

    I'll need to HB some adamantine tips for a spider-droid mutator4.

    Choose one natural attack, that attack ignores 15 points of object hardness, if it already has this mutation ignore 5 more points of hardness and deal +1 damage.

    You may take this mutation once every 6 levels.

    Having a burrow mutation pre-req might do nicely, and under the construct mutation list.
    I am going to guess this is a suggestion for a mutation that grants adamantine's ability to ignore hardness 20 or less? It is already in. Check the Special entry of the Smash mutation in the Construct List, it has a special interaction with Material Damage Reduction. Also allows you to build tunnels into mountains using no better tool than your clenched fists.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Oh, clever. Yeah that works great actually.
    I don't think this little spy-bot will be smashing much, but it can scrape away at stuff even if it takes 6x longer =]

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    Also, I noticed you don't have a vermin advancement, is this intentional?
    Last edited by Hanuman; 2012-08-07 at 04:10 PM.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    Oh, clever. Yeah that works great actually.
    I don't think this little spy-bot will be smashing much, but it can scrape away at stuff even if it takes 6x longer =]

    http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=430971


    Also, I noticed you don't have a vermin advancement, is this intentional?
    People keep asking about vermin, animal and ooze. Here is my answer to those questions.

    Mutant Ascendancy:

    Vermin: You gain all the benefits of the vermin type. You lose your intelligence score and you are no longer playable.

    Ooze: You gain all the benefits of the ooze type. You lose your intelligence score and you are no longer playable.

    Animal: You gain all the benefits of the animal type (none, truth be said). Your intelligence is reduced to 2 and you are no longer playable.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Wait, why can you gain nothing from Vermin Look at all the insects, all the other assorted vermin. They're natures most physically complex things, they they are also the most brainless, but why not become some sort of insect hybrid? Would be cool.

    Edit; Besides, I can really see a Cleric of loth taking a few levels of this and doing vermin, if only to become more spiderlike.
    Last edited by Grimsage Matt; 2012-08-07 at 06:55 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Lexin's Avatar

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    I have few... comments (?) to Outsider part of evolutionist

    Mutant Perfection- It is really great, but I am afraid it needs some king of limit to these petitioners (at least limit it so they can fit inside this 60ft radius)

    Divine Blessing:
    Arcane Eye- Are you sure you didn't mean Arcane Sight? It would make more sense this way... (more typical ability to be permanent)

    These abilities need the DC part of the description, as Zone of Truth has save DC (I assume it is charisma, as it is spell-like)


    Summon teratomorph - I think it needs at least the part with 'no ability to summon other creatures by the one you summoned' ... and probably 'no free Wish'...



    And a question that probably is a 'no' but would help in a game I am currently playing: Can budding creation seeds be used just to plant trees? The alive, normal ones?

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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Mutant Ascendancy:

    Vermin: You gain all the benefits of the vermin type. You lose your intelligence score and you are no longer playable.

    Ooze: You gain all the benefits of the ooze type. You lose your intelligence score and you are no longer playable.

    Animal: You gain all the benefits of the animal type (none, truth be said). Your intelligence is reduced to 2 and you are no longer playable.
    You can be an ooze with an Int score. I even remember of a PrC that had this as a capstone. Animal and Vermin are more contestable.

    I didn't consider how hard it is to adapt another type. You have to find teratomorphs and new mutations. Seeing at how much you have, you are very creative if you're still able to find more yet.

    Just a few ideas : the animal ascendancy would probably grant druid abilities, like wild empathy or wild shape. The vermin ascendancy may be about transforming into swarm of insects. A mutation to control small animals, vermins or undead would also be cool if there isn't yet (seeing at how much you have, this would surprise me).

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Draken's Avatar

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    This is a case where I am mostly refering to the "determining type" entry of the Monster Manual on creating creatures:

    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    Animal: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a
    vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language
    or culture.
    Animals have average combat ability, average hit
    points, and average saving throws.
    If your creature ever lived on Earth, and it’s not an insect of
    some kind, it’s probably an animal.
    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    Ooze: An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature, usually
    mindless. Oozes have average combat ability, good hit points, and
    very poor saving throws, but they have immunity to many forms
    of attack.
    If your creature has a bizarre physiology that takes the form of a
    mindless, amorphous blob, it’s an ooze. Otherwise, it’s probably an
    aberration
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    Vermin: This type includes insects, arachnids, other arthropods,
    worms, and similar invertebrates. Vermin have average
    combat ability and hit points and poor saving throws, but are often
    mindless and therefore have immunity to mind-affecting effects
    (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
    Use this type for giant bugs and other mindless invertebrates. If
    your creature has an Intelligence score and you’ve considered the
    vermin type, it’s probably a magical beast or an aberration instead
    .
    Oozes don't offer anything that isn't handily provided by aberration and would all but make Amorphous Form superfluous.

    Vermin and Animal are both much better represented by Magical Beast (and sometimes aberration).

    -----

    Most special abilities that vermin and animals have (what few extraordinaire abilities they have, to be precise) are covered by mutations and teratomorphisms, not by the relatively minor flat bonus given by ascendancies.

    As for the cleric of lolth, he's not doing a small dip to change types, it is a 10-level investment.

    ------

    I will be honest. You can make trees, but they will die in 24 hours unless you plant them in a grove you have.

    -------

    Outsider Perfection is... Amusing, but there is very little reason to limit Petitioners, I believe, it looks strong on paper but abusing it is unfeasible in practice (also, your army of souls can't get near thinaum, heh). First, there are only so many petitioners you take into a combat and... Say, not go insane from the time it will take to finish your turn. Their utility is limited since they aren't that strong (you are level 20, they cap at 15 for the colossal beasts).

    I left it without a ceiling for a reason, that reason is amusement. It's prime utility is preventing level loss for your allies when they lose the rocket tag of level 20 anyway.

    As for the mutations. The DCs should be the same as for spell-like abilities and I guess I made a small mistake with the spells, edits are in order.
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