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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    My main problem with that mutation is that it is pretty much the 3.0 druid animal companion. Which was kind of strong. And that one is strictly better.

    There are other options for modeling what is being asked. Verdant Servant, Create Spawn (the whole undead set can have its flip switched to become a deathless set, for a nicer look) or maybe just simply Spell-like abilities (summon swarm, summon nature's ally, creeping doom).

    But the proposed ability has just too many holes in it that need patching to avoid utter brokenness (not necessarily overpowered brokenness, like Hanuman said, there are usability issues with it as is).
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    I recommend limiting the amount of creatures that it can summon total, and instead offer swarm options. I can see a 10th level evolutionist having close to 50 separate creatures using aerial combat rules. Nightmare for DMs.

    Druid's animal companions are much more powerful than a single creature of the equivalent HD as Call of the Master, but a 6HD ape with +2 - +5 to all rolls/saves/checks (pathfinder has better companions) that is a major pain in the arse when it dies is not really even comparable to 16 tiny vipers that respawn at an indeterminate rate, and at level 10 that's one 9HD ape vs 50 tiny vipers.

    Technically, it says creature so it doesn't have to be animals at all, it can be clockwork menders with a 1d8 heal to constructs 1/day each, and you get 8 of these every 2 levels for the cost of 1/6 of your mut pool.

    That being said, I REALLY like this mutation, and I'd probably take it.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Has the Rock Throwing mutation accounted for the stacking of increase size teratomorph + ant haul + bulls strength?

    That could easily be a 350lb object throw as part of a multi-attack.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    Has the Rock Throwing mutation accounted for the stacking of increase size teratomorph + ant haul + bulls strength?

    That could easily be a 350lb object throw as part of a multi-attack.
    Rock throwing deals damage based on slam, not on the mass of the object being thrown.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Extraordinaire

    Bloodscent
    Ability Score: None
    Benefit: You may detect blood with your scent at 5 times your scent range, and grants a +4 to survival checks when tracking injured targets.
    This augment works underwater equally well as long as you have a swim speed.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    Extraordinaire

    Bloodscent
    Ability Score: None
    Benefit: You may detect blood with your scent at 5 times your scent range, and grants a +4 to survival checks when tracking injured targets.
    This augment works underwater equally well as long as you have a swim speed.
    That is really just a cheaper version of buying scent five times, range wise, but bonus-wise it falls short.

    Also a few changes were made to Crush (nerf), Trample (nerf), rock throwing (buff!) and Tail Sweep (buff!).
    Last edited by Draken; 2012-11-08 at 12:48 PM.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Thanks Draken for this awesome yet versatile class, I know it has been a lot of work for ya. I was wondering do you have a link or attachment that you could post to show all the current up-to-date information? If you have already addressed this, sorry for the dupe then.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ntg View Post
    Thanks Draken for this awesome yet versatile class, I know it has been a lot of work for ya. I was wondering do you have a link or attachment that you could post to show all the current up-to-date information? If you have already addressed this, sorry for the dupe then.
    You mean, a single post changelog kept updated constantly?

    I did not do one of those.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    I was just looking for a way to have or download the entire updated file for the evolutionist class rather than searching/scrolling through 8 pages of stuff. Then as things are changed or updated, a new file would appear to reflect those changes. Thanks for assistance!

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    When he makes changes to the class, he makes them in the first few posts, if that's what you mean. The only thing you'd need to check for in the thread itself is for idiosyncrasies.
    It's a falcon. Wearing a Fedora. Your argument is irrelevant.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Aye. No need to rifle through the pages of the thread, everything that is changed is changed in the first few posts and merely announced on the thread.

    Speaking of, a few more changes (nerfs).

    First things first, this one might affect the most people currently using the class, so I will make it more explicit.

    There is now a hard cap in how many attacks you can get from the Natural Weapons mutation. This was kind of needed because... Well. The potential full attack routine one could get was at something like 48 attacks.

    On the same vein, the Spores mutation (Plant list) was changed so that it cannot be used alongside other attacks in a full attack.

    The ability that governs the save DCs of Poison has been changed from Constituttion to Constitution. I am certain this buff will help many poison users, since nobody has the Constituttion ability.

    Rakes are now explictly called out as being secondary natural weapons.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Isn't there already a cap on number of natural attacks in 3.5?

    Also, why not allow the higher number of natural attacks but make them exponentially unlikely to hit?

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    Isn't there already a cap on number of natural attacks in 3.5?

    Also, why not allow the higher number of natural attacks but make them exponentially unlikely to hit?
    I don't think so.

    That's rewriting the core mechanic for natural attacks. It's much easier for people using the class to just use the existing rules for them than it is to try to write and learn all new rules.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    Isn't there already a cap on number of natural attacks in 3.5?

    Also, why not allow the higher number of natural attacks but make them exponentially unlikely to hit?
    Nope, only the fact that natural attacks are normally hard to get, not given out like candy. Some 'brew breaks that by making natural attacks easy, but the class itself imposes a cap (take ozodrin as an example).The evolutionist should probably follow a similar example (though it's already limited by amount of body parts and the fact the not-body dependent ones have limits, so for a standard race their is a limit).

    That's how it already works, unless you take a couple feats to alleviate it (which, let's be honest, anyone going for this many natural attacks is going to take at least those two, maybe a couple add-ons).
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Nope, only the fact that natural attacks are normally hard to get, not given out like candy. Some 'brew breaks that by making natural attacks easy, but the class itself imposes a cap (take ozodrin as an example).The evolutionist should probably follow a similar example (though it's already limited by amount of body parts and the fact the not-body dependent ones have limits, so for a standard race their is a limit).

    That's how it already works, unless you take a couple feats to alleviate it (which, let's be honest, anyone going for this many natural attacks is going to take at least those two, maybe a couple add-ons).
    This.

    The body part limit was not working, however. Since the class itself gives a way to increase the number of body parts avaiable. Plus, there are the extraordinaire mutations that give additional attacks linked to no specific body parts (Rake, Spines and Spores, to be precise)

    Everything was adding up to a potential build that was little more than a deathball of sharp and heavy bits. So I imposed the hard limit.

    I may add a feat to increase the limit.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    I am actually making a Daelkyr half blood character to playtest this class. hes a complete monster. Thank you Mr. Draken
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Glad to be of use.

    Changelog

    So, one thing was pointed out to me some time ago. Construct teratomorphisms kinda sucked.

    So I redid them. Now there are six different teratomorphisms there, instead of two kinda subpar ones. They might need nerfs, depending on general opinions.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Heh, Heh. Looking at the new teratomorphisms gave me a funny mental image, since you could become an inanimate object with your mutations still present. "Why does this chair have tentacles and spikes sticking out of it?"
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    Heh, Heh. Looking at the new teratomorphisms gave me a funny mental image, since you could become an inanimate object with your mutations still present. "Why does this chair have tentacles and spikes sticking out of it?"
    I read this and immediately thought of this.


    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Mutations:
    Arcane Container [Spell-like]
    Prerequisite: Spell resistance, Mutator level 2.
    Ability Score: None
    Benefit: When a spell fails to overcome the evolutionist’s spell resistance he may, as an immediate action, absorb the spell and store it to use himself at a later time. The evolutionist can store only a single spell at a time and may only absorb spells of up to 1st level.
    The spell remains stored until the evolutionist uses it. He may lose the spell as a free action in order to open space for a different spell if he wishes. Using the stored spell is a standard action, the spell is treated as if cast by the original caster in all aspects (caster level, save DC, etc) other than target and origin, the origin being the evolutionist and the target being set by the evolutionist.
    Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the evolutionist may contain spells one level higher than 1st. This mutation can be taken once per two mutator levels.
    Does taking this multiple times allow you to store more than one spell or only increase the level of spells you can store?
    Last edited by Rizban; 2012-11-23 at 12:42 PM.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Only increases the maximum level that can be stored.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    I really like the new construct evolutionist options, and I may play one some day. I've already made a construct evolutionist NPC in one of my on-pause campaigns I'm DMing, it's helpful and in a dungeon the PC's are outside of but have not found yet... though it's the most favorable way out of their situation.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    When enchanting Arms/Armour of the Outer Planes, do you take the innate enchantment bonus into consideration when working out the cost (ie if your mutator level gives your Arms of the Outer Planes a +1 enchantment bonus and you want to add on a +1 enchant, do you pay as if it's a +1 weapon or a +2 weapon?)
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Since weapons can only go up to +10, and it says you can get up to +10 additional enhancements, my guess would be that the crafted part of the weapon isdetermined entirely separately from the class feature part.
    Last edited by Rizban; 2012-11-25 at 08:43 PM.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Rizban is correct. Due to the innate enhancement bonus, the weapons and armor qualify for enhancements, and then you can apply up to +10 of other magical effects to the items. A relatively small bonus given that anyone with access to magical weapon and armor crafting will be shooting for a +1/+9 weapon with greater magical weapon tackled on it.

    Changelog

    Class skills mildly changed.

    New extraordinaire mutation: Barbs.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    My evolutionist player is going to love barbs... he already has poison disease soulwounding quills and spines. Really nasty.

    Anything for gaining immunity to poisons or diseases? Heroes of horror has a feat to grant immunity to 1 disease and +2 saves vs. all others. I think evolving immunities to biological invasion is pretty in-line with adapting.
    Last edited by Hanuman; 2012-11-25 at 12:39 PM.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuman View Post
    My evolutionist player is going to love barbs... he already has poison disease soulwounding quills and spines. Really nasty.

    Anything for gaining immunity to poisons or diseases? Heroes of horror has a feat to grant immunity to 1 disease and +2 saves vs. all others. I think evolving immunities to biological invasion is pretty in-line with adapting.
    All the status effects. All of them.

    The Disease mutation provides immunity to the chosen diseases. There are a number of ascendancies (feat granted anyway) that give poison/disease immunity due to the new type.

    Selinia's Venomancer is probably to his liking. Also, Stench+Fragrance+Grove(Miasma), with one of the venomancer's special abilities is something that is going to be done by a friend in a game I am playing.

    Weapons of mass destruction.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Double post!

    Changelog:

    New sidebar added underneath Rank I teratomorphisms (default list) to clarify one thing.

    New entry added on the basic description of mutations (second post), Granting Mutations, this is relevant to the Progenitor and to the following prestige class!

    ------------------------------

    High Evolutionary

    I seek to perfect life, not destroy it.
    - Herbert Edgar Wyndham, High Evolutionary

    Evolutionists are centered on a path of personal growth. The High Evolutionary is not as selfish, he has the power to improve any who are willing to accept his gifts, but these come at a price, eventually.

    Prerequisites:
    Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 13 ranks, Knowledge (Nature) 13 ranks.
    Feats: Iron Will, any two feats that grant access to additional mutation lists.

    HD: d8
    {table=head]Level| BAB| Fort| Ref| Will| Features
    1| +0| +0| +0| +0| Mutations, Evolutionary Touch, Latent Mutations
    2| +1| +0| +0| +0| Mutations, Latent Teratomorphisms I
    3| +1| +1| +1| +1| Mutations, The Evolutionary’s Will
    4| +2| +1| +1| +1| Mutations, Latent Teratomorphisms II
    5| +2| +1| +1| +1| Mutations, The Evolutionary’s Supreme Will[/table]
    Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The high evolutionary can chose the class skills of any one of his base classes to be his class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

    Proficiencies: The high evolutionary gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

    Mutations: The high evolutionary gains four mutations per level.

    Evolutionary Touch (Su): As a standard action, the high evolutionary can touch a creature and induce a controlled evolution much like that of an evolutionist. The recipient of this ability gains up to two mutations per class level of the high evolutionary, these mutations must be drawn from the mutations the evolutionary has or from those in his pool of latent mutations. No being can be the recipient of more than one use of this ability at any given time, even if from different high evolutionaries, only the most recent applies.
    The mutations granted by this ability use the high evolutionary’s mutator level to determine the limit for how many times they can be taken, but use the target's hid dice as his mutator level to determine the power of the mutations. If the recipient is a mutator as well, mutations gained through this ability count against mutation limits along with his own mutations, and the evolutionary cannot cause any creature to have more instances of a given mutation than he himself has (either on his normal pool or on his latent mutation pool). The high evolutionary can use this ability on himself, but the only mutations he can take are those in his pool of latent mutations.
    It takes one minute for these mutations to fully manifest and grant their benefits and their recipient is fatigued for that time, after they manifest, the mutations are permanent until altered or removed by another use of this ability by any high evolutionary. If the target is unwilling, the high evolutionary must succeed on a touch attack and the target is entitled to a fortitude save against the normal mutation DC, based on Charisma.
    At fifth level, the high evolutionary can use evolutionary touch as a ranged touch attack with a range of 60 feet.

    Latent Mutations: The high evolutionary receives four mutations each level that go to his pool of latent mutations. These mutations follow all the same rules for normal mutations (and count towards any limits along with his normal mutations), but do not give any bonuses to the high evolutionary.

    Latent Teratomorphisms: At second level, the high evolutionary gains three latent teratomorphisms chosen from the list of rank I teratomorphisms. As with latent mutations, these teratomorphisms grant him no benefits, usually. Starting at this level, however, the evolutionary gains the ability to grant rank I teratomorphisms with his evolutionary touch. No creature can have more than one rank I teratomorphism gained through this ability at any given time.
    At fourth level, the high evolutionary adds three latent teratomorphisms chosen from the list of rank II teratomorphisms to add to his pool. These teratomorphisms can also be granted by Evolutionary touch, and no creature can have more than one such teratomorphism at any given time (but they can have one rank I and one rank II teratomorphism granted by Evolutionary touch, however).

    The Evolutionary’s Will (Sp): The gifts of the high evolutionary come at a price. Starting at third level, the evolutionary is treated as having a Status spell active on all recipients of his Evolutionary Touch who are within a one mile radius of him. As a standard action, he may attempt to charm any of these creatures as per the Charm Monster spell or implant a suggestion as the spell, both with a caster level equal to the high evolutionary’s mutator level. Both of these effects allow a will save to resist, with a DC equal to the normal DC for mutations, based on charisma. Any creature that successfully saves against (or whose spell resistance blocks) either of these effects becomes immune to further attempts for 24 hours, but the Status spell remains active.

    The Evolutionary’s Supreme Will (Sp): The evolutionary demands and those who received his gifts must obey. At fifth level, the high evolutionary gains the ability to impose a Geas as the spell on a recipient of his evolutionary touch who is within one mile as a standard action. The caster level for this Geas is equal to the high evolutionary’s mutator level, unlike a normal Geas a target who does not follow the dictates of the evolutionary also suffers ability penalties as listed in Lesser Geas. If the spell resistance of a creature successfully blocks this ability, it becomes immune to the high evolutionary’s Geas for 24 hours.
    A certain respite is granted to those who do the high evolutionary’s will, and any creature that successfully completes the task imposed by the Geas becomes immune to this ability for a whole month.
    Last edited by Draken; 2013-05-21 at 07:17 PM.
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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    Okay, I like this PrC. Reminds me somewhat of the Swarmlord class by Lix Lorn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Friend Of Mine
    Bloody Mess: The gift that keeps on gibbing.
    Fatigue makes me wax philosophic and/or babble. If I've posted something strange and tangential, that is probably the cause. This entry would be an example.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    So I was playing around with the evolutionist to see what I could break and I ended up writing this guy. I took an hour or so to do it (most of that being evolution choice and formatting), so it's not finished, but I found that the raw potency that this class offers is incredible--specifically the at-will casting you can pick up. I recommend imposing per-encounter limits of some kind instead of per-day, with harsher scaling, and implementing some sort of buff-persisting evolution for SLAs so characters can get persistent effects instead of racking up and ability and using it at-will every time the duration expires..

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    Orc Evolutionist 6, Level 6, Init +1, HP 48/48, Speed 30
    AC 17, Touch 11, Flat-footed 16, Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +3, Base Attack Bonus 6/1
    4 Claws +14 (1d4+3, x2)
    Bite (Primary Weapon) +14/+9 (1d8+9, x2)
    Chain Shirt (+4 Armor, +1 Dex), +2 Natural
    Abilities Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 6

    You make 6 attacks in a full attack, each dealing ~10 damage plus 1d3 Wisdom. You have pounce, at-will wraithstrike, and at-will invisibility. Go to town.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2012-11-27 at 08:01 PM.

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    Default Re: The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

    On the entry feat requirements, is there an ability to waive one of the Mutator feat requirements if the evolutionist has access to a special list due to his type? For example, if a Warforged Evolutionist wants to take this class, can he have only Iron Will and Plant Mutator due to having access to Construct Mutations due to his creature type?

    Can a high evolutionary target himself with Evolutionary Touch? As written, it just specifies "a creature," allowing self as a valid target.

    Also, is there a maximum number of creatures that can be affected, or can I affect all 200+ of my low level minions from Leadership plus anyone else in town? I could see having this guy mutate an entire village just for fun if there's no limit on the number of creatures.

    Also, from a balance standpoint, I'd probably limit the ability to grant mutations to strictly the ones he chooses on his Latent Mutations/Teratomorphisms list. It makes a High Evolutionary pick his LMs with a bit more thought and prevents him from adding basically any mutation on the list to someone.

    Other than that, I really like it. I have a certain artificer who would take this PrC in a heartbeat.
    Last edited by Rizban; 2012-11-27 at 11:44 PM.
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