TV Tropes jumps the shark

[Elm11]

The question is: Are the sexual stuff really that hard to avoid? Unless you INTENTIONALLY go looking for a sexual show or weird fetish stuff I never found one.


BLEEUGH. I just defended fetish pages. Whats wrong with me?

Expanding on that theme: Do we really want the kind of people who are searching up fetish material on TVtropes to be hanging around? Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, and people who enjoy reading up on underaged panty shots are perfectly respectable and friendly, but frankly? I'm happy to take that risk.

[KnightDisciple]

Expanding on that theme: Do we really want the kind of people who are searching up fetish material on TVtropes to be hanging around? Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, and people who enjoy reading up on underaged panty shots are perfectly respectable and friendly, but frankly? I'm happy to take that risk.

I would generally agree.

I would also note that I think the current status of the Panty Shot trope (as an example) is a good middle ground for the people wailing about "censorship" and the folks who are concerned about skeezy lists. That is, the trope says "this is a thing that exists in media", but doesn't give a list of "here are all the individual works it appears in, here's the episode, and if you go to youtube and slowmo this segment, you'll get the full benefit of it".


Incidentally, I think "Crowning" Moment of Awesome had the "crowning" dropped for a good reason: it went from "here are perhaps a half-dozen peak moments in this work" to "here's a catalog of every moment that's even slightly nifty in this work".

[Jaros]

Wait, have there been some more developments? The Fate Stay Night page is back (don't know how much it's changed) and pages such as Shortbus, Plot with Porn and It's Not Porn, It's Art appear intact (don't know if any of them had been removed though)

[TheLaughingMan]

Incidentally, I think "Crowning" Moment of Awesome had the "crowning" dropped for a good reason: it went from "here are perhaps a half-dozen peak moments in this work" to "here's a catalog of every moment that's even slightly nifty in this work".

They really could have

1. Cleaned up the trope, setting new guidelines.

2. Renamed the trope to Crowning Moments of Awesome, thus justifying multiple usage.

3. Gotten reliable moderators for subjective tropes instead of expecting the constantly growing user-base to know everything.

But you know, take the path of least work/most annoyance. See what happens.

[Traab]

Personally, I think a fair compromise would be to take the fetish tropes and just not provide links to images or film clips. Take an easy one for example, fanservice. Its enough to tell us that in full metal alchemists closing credits you get to see winry in a fairly sexy outfit bending down to give us an extreme cleavage shot, we dont need the film clip link for it. Same for manga with hot spring scenes. Its enough to let us know that in naruto we get male and female fanservice in the hot springs once in awhile, you dont have to detail every time it happens and provide links to show it. Similar things can apply to all the fetish stuff as well. Clothing damage, side cleavage, femslash, whatever, links arent needed. If I want to find the scene in one piece where I get to see upskirts on nami, I can go google search for it, there is no need to provide me with a ready made link.

[Reverent-One]

Fate/stay night's back? You mean the claims that anything with any sexual content in it was being labeled as porn and kept off the site were wild exaggerations?

I'm so surprised by this turn of events.

[willpell]

Crap. Well, I guess I won't have to worry about losing any more weekends down that lovable time sink.

[Elm11]

They really could have

1. Cleaned up the trope, setting new guidelines.

2. Renamed the trope to Crowning Moments of Awesome, thus justifying multiple usage.

3. Gotten reliable moderators for subjective tropes instead of expecting the constantly growing user-base to know everything.

But you know, take the path of least work/most annoyance. See what happens.

Isn't that within their right, though? It's not like we're paying them to do that job. We're not entitled to have them painlessly and effortlessly fix things to appease everyone at once - They don't get paid to clean the place up, and, just like Rich, they don't owe us a thing to do it. I think we ought to be more patient and more constructive in the way we discuss the changes: Instead of Complaining about how we think the changes made it worse, let's consider What we can do to improve the site ourselves, or how we could help in cleaning it up.

@Willpell: So because they're cleaning out some of/most of the explicit sexual content, it is now dead to you? If that is the case for anyone here, I'm not sure that they're visiting the site for the right reasons.

[Tengu_temp]

The question is: Are the sexual stuff really that hard to avoid? Unless you INTENTIONALLY go looking for a sexual show or weird fetish stuff I never found one.

The problem is not porn. The problem is that there's a lot of stories that just happen to have sexual elements in them, but TV Tropes considers them to be porn and cuts them - heck, Sailor Moon was on the list of works for review to check if it's porn or not. Something tells me the anti-anime lobby on TV Tropes grows in power again.

Though luckily, Fate/Stay Night is back, so maybe the results of this won't be as ridiculous as they initially appeared. But that doesn't change the fact that this is still a jumping the shark moment for TV Tropes.

[Reverent-One]

But that doesn't change the fact that this is still a jumping the shark moment for TV Tropes.

Meh, I don't read many pages about porn tropes/media, so it won't change much for me.

[Maxios]

From what I understand, it was either make some changes or shut the site down. Now, would you rather have TvTropes minus a few fetish pages and with some trope names changed, or would you rather have no TvTropes?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Fate/stay night's back? You mean the claims that anything with any sexual content in it was being labeled as porn and kept off the site were wild exaggerations?

I'm so surprised by this turn of events.

It was labelled as porn and kicked off the site. The fact that it's back doesn't change the fact that there was a knee-jerk Fahrenheit 451 reaction initially, which is what's got me both concerned and incredibly disappointed. The fact that they're fixing the ****-up doesn't change the fact that there was a ****-up.

[Matar]

This really sucks eggs.

Although I honestly don't think it's a huge deal for a really simple reason: TVtropes has been a really horrible website for a long, long time now. A quick look at the Nightmare Fuel page would prove that to just about anyone.

Seriously, it wasn't the porn tropes that was making the site bad =/.

[Elm11]

The problem is not porn. The problem is that there's a lot of stories that just happen to have sexual elements in them, but TV Tropes considers them to be porn and cuts them - heck, Sailor Moon was on the list of works for review to check if it's porn or not. Something tells me the anti-anime lobby on TV Tropes grows in power again.

Though luckily, Fate/Stay Night is back, so maybe the results of this won't be as ridiculous as they initially appeared. But that doesn't change the fact that this is still a jumping the shark moment for TV Tropes.

Granted, they're being overzealous in their attempt to clean the place up, but that goes back to my earlier point - they're normal people who effectively need to be overzealous to make sure the site keeps running. That or switch to new (and probably seedier) advertisers. I can understand it's probably infuriating if the page for an anime you love is reviewed because some people in it have sex and that's mentioned, but at the end of the day it's one page among thousands. If deleting that one page makes some people unhappy, it's unfortunate but unavoidable.

It's simple utilitarianism. The admin has to inconvenience some to ensure the best for all - deleting some pages which probably don't deserve it to make sure the vast majority keep running. I'm sure he'd be happy to leave them all if we started donating all the revenue he'll lose if Google-Ads pulls out.

[Teln]

Come on people, you make it sound like the only choice is Google Ads or "Make Your **** 4 Inches Longer" ads. What's wrong with using say, DeviantArt's advertisers? I've never had a problem with tasteless/obscene ads there.

[Elm11]

It was labelled as porn and kicked off the site. The fact that it's back doesn't change the fact that there was a knee-jerk Fahrenheit 451 reaction initially, which is what's got me both concerned and incredibly disappointed. The fact that they're fixing the ****-up doesn't change the fact that there was a ****-up.

Uhm... You're upset because they made a mistake, recognised the mistake and fixed it? As I said - one page among thousands. Also: page with arguably explicit content being removed temporarily in a purge of explicit content does not equal a 'knee-jerk Fahrenheit 451 reaction'. It equals a mistake. One I'm sure they probably regret, for what it matters. I don't think it's even the tiniest bit fair to compare a site cleanup that doesn't run perfectly smoothly with a totalitarian book-burning society simply because we found our freedom of press threatened for a short period of time. At the end of the day, it's the admin's site, and he's paying for it. Not us. If we don't like the conditions he sets and believe it to be totalitarian and, as one person said earlier, 'pure evil', then we're perfectly welcome to take our business elsewhere. In the meantime, we put up with it.

EDIT:

Come on people, you make it sound like the only choice is Google Ads or "Make Your **** 4 Inches Longer" ads. What's wrong with using say, DeviantArt's advertisers? I've never had a problem with tasteless/obscene ads there.

While I'm sure there are other viable options, as someone said earlier, the site has been long overdue for a clean-up anyway, and there are probably a myriad of other problems with switching advertisers. They may not cover the costs, may have their own requirements, may not be held in high regard... hell, the admin may just not want to. It still boils down to the fact that he pays for the site, thus we use it by his grace. We need to respect that right.

[Matar]

the site has been long overdue for a clean-up anyway,

Getting rid of the porn tropes won't help with that in the slightest though. It's not certain pages that suck and are over bloated, it's -all- of them. Again, look at the nightmare fuel pages or Crowning Moment pages.

It still boils down to the fact that he pays for the site, thus we use it by his grace. We need to respect that right.

Or just don't go to the site anymore.

Honestly, I don't see why someone just doesn't copy the entire site and make a new website called "RealTVTropes" or something. Without the bad rules. That way TVtropes can keep the porn tropes off and anyone who wants old-school tvtropes can just go to the new site.

TVtropes is a wiki, after all. Making a copy of all the tropes pages should be perfectly legal.

Or maybe not. Either way, that's just about the only way to get a good website back.

[Tiki Snakes]

Honestly, I don't see why someone just doesn't copy the entire site and make a new website called "RealTVTropes" or something. Without the bad rules. That way TVtropes can keep the porn tropes off and anyone who wants old-school tvtropes can just go to the new site.

TVtropes is a wiki, after all. Making a copy of all the tropes pages should be perfectly legal.

Or maybe not. Either way, that's just about the only way to get a good website back.

Well, that's basically what happened with Encyclopedia Dramatica. Though, the situation was much more extreme given that the owner pulled the plug altogether. The simple fact that no-one has probably suggests that this isn't that serious an issue, in comparison.

[Teln]

Uhm... You're upset because they made a mistake, recognised the mistake and fixed it? As I said - one page among thousands. Also: page with arguably explicit content being removed temporarily in a purge of explicit content does not equal a 'knee-jerk Fahrenheit 451 reaction'. It equals a mistake. One I'm sure they probably regret, for what it matters. I don't think it's even the tiniest bit fair to compare a site cleanup that doesn't run perfectly smoothly with a totalitarian book-burning society simply because we found our freedom of press threatened for a short period of time. At the end of the day, it's the admin's site, and he's paying for it. Not us. If we don't like the conditions he sets and believe it to be totalitarian and, as one person said earlier, 'pure evil', then we're perfectly welcome to take our business elsewhere. In the meantime, we put up with it.

As others have said, nobody is complaining about the mistake getting fixed. We're complaining about the utter collapse in standards that permitted the mistake to be made in the first place. Removing legitimate content is simply inexcusable.

While I'm sure there are other viable options, as someone said earlier, the site has been long overdue for a clean-up anyway, and there are probably a myriad of other problems with switching advertisers. They may not cover the costs, may have their own requirements, may not be held in high regard... hell, the admin may just not want to. It still boils down to the fact that he pays for the site, thus we use it by his grace. We need to respect that right.

If TV Tropes was a forum, I'd agree with you. But it's not, it's a wiki with a forum attached. Wikis are communal beasts by their very nature. Saying that every user should shut up and bend over every time Louis XVI Fast Eddie gets in a huff about something is a surefire recipe for drama, arguments and dissension. Heck, just look at what's going on in this thread!

Also, I've heard a nasty rumor that Fast Eddie is banning people from the TV Tropes forums because they disagree with the way he's handled things so far. Does anybody know if this is true or not?

[Elm11]

-Snip-

Fine by me. Hell, probably fine be the admin. Perhaps I should reword that to say 'If we want to use the site, we need to respect those rights'. The thing about free speech is that if you don't like what the site proposes, you're under absolutely no obligation to use it. That's part of what separates it from a 'Fahrenheit-451 reaction'. I just don't believe it is either fair or worthwhile for people to call out these changes as totalitarian/communist/fascist/evil/jaywalking when they don't need to hang around to put up with them. I'll admit freely that I completely disagree with the notion that they're a bad thing, so of course that will influence my opinion, but I just don't understand how TVtropes will be RUINED FOREVAH Because they're cleaning out some sexual references and making the odd mistake. Which harks back nicely to my original statement in this thread - the entire thing seems like one great big overreaction as a result of 'They're changing/threatening to change/delete something that I know about! How dare they!'. I never even knew any of the animes listed in this thread existed. To me it seems like the concerns of the minority that must be inconvenienced so that the majority can still enjoy the site. While it doesn't make your complaints invalid, it does make them, unfortunately, quite unimportant.

EDIT: I'm yet to see evidence of an 'utter collapse in standards'. I had never heard a single credible complaint about the moderation of TVtropes until the recent changes. Also, removing subjectively legitimate content is most certainly excusable. You're angry because a mistake was made for a short period and some subjectively legitimate content was briefly removed. The issue is that you don't agree with the call that the admin made, and while it's perfectly within your right to raise a stink about said call (And in this case I agree with you completely that that page shouldn't be removed, having just had a look at it) that doesn't necessarily mean we ought to be donning our shining armour and throwing off the yolk of our repressive overlords.

Furthermore, the fact that TVtropes is a wiki makes absolutely no difference to the fact that somebody needs to pay for it. It's not like wikipedia - it neither asks for nor receives donations from us, the contributers. We can't magically yell 'no taxation without representation!' if we're not actually contributing. Comparing Eddie's call to clean up some porn and in the process, remove some legitimate content to Louis XVI is equally ignoring the fact that he's not an evil overlord. He isn't cleaning the place out to watch us squirm, and he's not bending us over - He's making sure that his metaphorical 'France' can keep functioning. And yes, you're right, it will be a surefire recipe for drama, arguments and dissension, but only if we choose to blow it out of proportion and pretend it's something it's not.

[Matar]

Well, that's basically what happened with Encyclopedia Dramatica. Though, the situation was much more extreme given that the owner pulled the plug altogether. The simple fact that no-one has probably suggests that this isn't that serious an issue, in comparison.

I guess yeah. Although it's only been a few days.

Personally, I haven't used the site in like... a year. Maybe even two. The fact that this seems to be a bid deal to people is kinda shocking, not because I don't agree with them but because I never thought the website had such a large fan-base.

I hope someone is bothered enough by this silliness to create a new site though. Would be really nice imo.

. To me it seems like the concerns of the minority that must be inconvenienced so that the majority can still enjoy the site. While it doesn't make your complaints invalid, it does make them, unfortunately, quite unimportant.

I don't personally think this is true at all. The porn tropes didn't make TVtropes bad. Bad and bloated articles made TVtropes bad.

But I haven't been a fan of the website for quite awhile, so maybe I just see things differently then other people.

[Reverent-One]

As others have said, nobody is complaining about the mistake getting fixed. We're complaining about the utter collapse in standards that permitted the mistake to be made in the first place. Removing legitimate content is simply inexcusable.

Oh come on, given the amount of content they have to go through and the importance of funding, it makes more sense to be overzealous in the first place and get the funding back as quickly as possible, then allow the time to put together a set of standards and figure out which ones should be put back. It's simple crisis management, better for some parts of the site to be down for a while than for the whole site to be down.

[irenicObserver]

I see nothing but arguments that makes it their fault. Maybe it's your problem? I can tell from the OPs comments that he is taking it rather personally, as if the admins said straight to his face, "you are a disgusting pervert". Get over it, it's back, they realized and fix their mistake. Holding it against them makes you rather petty. If you are accused of something, don't mad and yell, "WHAT!? HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT ABOUT ME?!". Speak calmly and prove to them they are wrong. It's not harm done if they are, no damage to your reputation. While trying to paint them black for us to see you are showing us how black you can be.

[Reverent-One]

I hope someone is bothered enough by this silliness to create a new site though. Would be really nice imo.

It would run into the same bloat problems you have with the current tvtropes unless it didn't let everyone edit it, in which case it wouldn't have near the content and use of TvTropes.

[Tengu_temp]

Meh, I don't read many pages about porn tropes/media, so it won't change much for me.

It's less about the outcome now and more about the approach. Though it might also become about the outcome, if pages that didn't deserve to be cut will get cut anyway. You can talk about lots of sexual things in a SFW/PG-13 way, even OotS does that.

Uhm... You're upset because they made a mistake, recognised the mistake and fixed it?

Do note that "they" are not a monogamous mass. It's pretty likely that this happened:
1. Person A cuts the F/SN page because it has sexual content and is a visual novel with an anime style, and that means it's filthy, filthy porn.
2. Massive outrage ensues.
3. Person B notices the outrage, facepalms at A's judgement and brings the page back.
4. Person A may or may not change their mind on the topic.
So yes, this still leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. Do we really need people who are in charge of running TV Tropes thinking that all anime is naughty tentacles? This is not the nineties anymore.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Or just don't go to the site anymore.

Yeah, that's been my plan for about the last few months, barring cases of extreme boredom. I just wanted to clarify that one instance of a site completely ignoring all previous policy and the fact that it is a collaborative wiki is enough for me, at least, to declare that it's kind of lost the point.

[Elm11]

Do note that "they" are not a monogamous mass. It's pretty likely that this happened:
1. Person A cuts the F/SN page because it has sexual content and is a visual novel with an anime style, and that means it's filthy, filthy porn.
2. Massive outrage ensues.
3. Person B notices the outrage, facepalms at A's judgement and brings the page back.
4. Person A may or may not change their mind on the topic.
So yes, this still leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. Do we really need people who are in charge of running TV Tropes thinking that all anime is naughty tentacles? This is not the nineties anymore.

That's fair enough. In fact, that's almost certainly the case. But if person B is smart enough to fix person A's mistake, and person A is smart enough to learn from said mistake (which, given we haven't seen the end of all things explicit on TVtropes just yet, regardless of what some people seem to think, seems to be the case) then surely we should be relieved that there are clearly at least some logical people running the show, instead of being enraged by the fact the mistake was made in the first place and disregarding the fact that it was fixed and hasn't happened again?

EDIT:

Alright, I'm off to bed, because it's absurdly late. I'll be back to continue the rant/argument/discussion in the morning.

[Matar]

It would run into the same bloat problems you have with the current tvtropes unless it didn't let everyone edit it, in which case it wouldn't have near the content and use of TvTropes.

I guess. Couldn't be any worse then what the website already is though, that's for sure.

Holding it against them makes you rather petty.

That seems rather mean. It was something Tengu liked, and the site owner screwed up parts of it he enjoyed. To me that seems like a rather good reason to be upset.

I hate it when games I enjoy are turned to **** by DLC, bad company practices, etcetc. This is no different then that, really.

[Avilan the Grey]

Expanding on that theme: Do we really want the kind of people who are searching up fetish material on TVtropes to be hanging around? Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, and people who enjoy reading up on underaged panty shots are perfectly respectable and friendly, but frankly? I'm happy to take that risk.

With all respect, equaling having a fetish and being perverse is making me angry.

[Reverent-One]

It's less about the outcome now and more about the approach. Though it might also become about the outcome, if pages that didn't deserve to be cut will get cut anyway. You can talk about lots of sexual things in a SFW/PG-13 way, even OotS does that.

Sure, but talking about sexual things in a SFW/PG-13 way won't get something cut. They've stated that they flat out will not accept recommendations to purge anything that meets the following criteria (with the exception of things that portray children as objects of sexual gratification, if any such things exist):

Is a film rated below "R" for U.S. distribution.
Is a show that can be aired on prime time television.
Is a video game that is rated below "M" by the ESRB.
Is a written work that is sold in major bookstores without an "adult" or "mature" label.
Is an anime/manga/etc. that is approved for U.S. import as a non-adult work.
Is read/shown/taught in high school or below.
Is in another format and meets equivalent criteria.