Let's make a base class (3.5 collaberation)

[Virdish]

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So I see this a lot in the world building sub-forum and I'm gonna steal it because to be honest I need some help making a class for my world setting. Daemon's Seal. I am trying to make a "Paladin" who is slightly more weapon focused. The idea is that this "Paladin" starts play with a unique weapon that uses a photoelectric core that levels with the "Paladin". The Capstone could be a save or die ability though I don't know if that would be powerful enough. I'll give the basic flavor of the class and a description of the photoelectric core. A big note is that enchantment doesn't work in the world of Daemon's Seal so any "extra" damage is a side effect of the crafting material. For instance a dragon's tooth dagger may do fire damage.

ElectraSteel

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Electrasteel is a photoelectric metal discovered by the Lira. It stores solar energy which it can disperse as electric damage. It is possible to gain enough charge to kill a person in a single hit though once this effect is used the stored solar energy is completely used up and the core must recharge for 24 hours.

Alright so I don't know how this would work mechanically but that is the idea behind it.

"Paladin"

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The "Paladin" is the martial arm of the Eglesia, exacting the church's will with the cold bite of her ElectraSteel weapon. The site of her armor, engraved with the symbols of her deity, is enough to strike fear into the hearts of normally fearless foes and inspire even the most downtrodden of allies. In battle she is the epitome of holy wrath, laying waste to any and all who oppose the will of the church.

d10
4+int mod skills(No class skill list yet)
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, she is also proficient with her Electrasteel weapon though not necessarily with others of it's kind. She is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor as well as all shields (including tower shields)

Design notes

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-Goal is tier 3
-Weapon focused though retains spellcasting
-Reduce MAD
-Limit "Dead" levels
-Make a fun and playable class

[Virdish]

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[Virdish]

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[Empedocles]

A few questions...

Is this still a heavily armored warrior? And do you still want it to have spellcasting? What about other iconic paladin powers? Basically, how much do you want this to differ from the normal paladin (besides in terms of power and MAD).

[Virdish]

Still aimed to be a heavily armored character and I really like smite. and really most iconic Paladin powers though the special mount may not fit the idea but I really see no problem with it. I do want to maintain spell casting. I love gishes to be honest so anything that can smash you in the face and then turn around and cast inflict at you is always good.

One big thing is I want to loosen up the alignment restrictions to Lawful good all of the way down to Lawful neutral as the tendency of the church to slaughter those that are opposed to it don't hold true to the simple LG restriction.

Edit: Rephrase to be exact LG,NG,CG, and LN would all be approved though maybe not CG maybe just any non chaotic and non evil.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What exactly do you mean by weapon-focused? Something like taking a standard paladin (fix), throwing on a Weapon of Legacy type deal (maybe in place of the mount), and calling it a day? Maneuvers that can only be used with his special weapon?

[Larkas]

Hmmmm, anything you want from the Crusader? Aside from the special weapon, what you want is pretty much what ToB offers. Also, have you read CW's Kensai? It might have some mechanics you can use on the special weapon. Lastly, I think you might want to restrict the alignments to the "top-left" corner, that is, LN, LG, NG. From what you're letting us in, it doesn't make much sense for a CG character to qualify for this.

On a side note, you do realize that image depicts a mecha of sorts from White Knight Chronicles, right?

[Virdish]

I like the zealous surge and it really fits the idea of what I am going for. And the die hard feat is awesome. I'm currently reading through ToB. Never really looked through it before.

Some kind of legacy weapon esque system seems like it should fit well. I think maneuvers would be great too unless that will give them too much power. And no I didn't know who three picture is of. LOL. It just looked awesome. LOL.

[Ziegander]

I don't think "has an electrasteel weapon" is a good concept to base a class on at all. For many reasons:

1) It absorbs solar energy to power its attacks. This means that in the absence of sunlight it is just an ordinary weapon. It also means that if the player is in sunlight all the time, they can just keep "charging" the weapon for the death-blow.

2) The power of the electrasteel weapon cannot satisfactorily be tied to level-advancement. The power of the weapon should be a function of its design, not of its wielder's competency. An NPC warrior should be just as capable of killing someone with a fully charged electrasteel weapon as any "Paladin" would. Tying the power of an electrasteel weapon to its wielder's faith can work, but it feels forced and contrived.

3) You make mention of its ability to "kill a person in a single hit" and its drawback of needing to "recharge for 24 hours." These are features of the weapon, not the class, and giving these kinds of mechanics to a 1st level character seem odd. Killing Blow 1/day... just doesn't feel right. If it just gains "charges" of electricity damage per round/minute/hour in natural sunlight, remember that 1d4 damage is already enough to "kill a person in a single hit" (Commoners have d4 HD).

4) The monumental failure of the Soulknife class.

5) The monumental failure of the Weapon Focus line of feats.

6) "Has an electrasteel weapon" is far, FAR more narrow a concept than any Soulknife or "weapon master" class, since it allows for all of ONE type of weapon. Sure, you might be able to choose from a Longsword, a Glaive, or a Heavy Crossbow, but all of them are going to have the properties of an electrasteel weapon.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Crusader is a pretty intense class, by any standard. Tome of Battle is a great book-- I would rate an initiator class as one of the most fun to play in the system. They can dish out some serious damage.

But here, I'll give you an ACF for my paladin fix (though it should work with any of them, should you prefer a different one) that might do you for the classic spell-and-platemail paladin.

Lose: Bless Weapon, Special Mount, Holy Weapon
Gain: Sword of God

Sword of God (Su): A paladin's weapon is a direct manifestation of his link to his deity. At first level, he gains a masterwork weapon of any type he is proficient with. This is henceforth referred to as his Paladin Weapon. In addition to the abilities described below, his paladin weapon becomes the focus for his spells, and he cannot use his smite evil ability with another weapon.

If his weapon is destroyed, he may forge a new one, at a cost of 200 experience points, in addition to the usual materials needed to craft a masterwork weapon.

At 2nd level, a paladin's weapon becomes good-aligned.

At 3rd level, a paladin's weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. This bonus increases by one at 6th level, and every third level thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 15th level.

At 5th level, a paladin gains the ability to call his weapon to his hands from anywhere on the plane as a free action.

At 8th level, a paladin's weapon gains the holy property.

At 11th level, a paladin's weapon becomes intelligent, with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of 10. It may communicate with the paladin emphatically, can see and hear, and has two minor powers (see the Intelligent Items section in the DMG or SRD for details).

At 16th level, a paladin's weapon's mental ability scores increase to 14 each, it gains 60 foot blindsense, and one major power.

At 18th level, a paladin's weapon gains the brilliant energy property. However, unlike normal brilliant energy weapons, it will still damage constructs and the undead.

All of these benefits (with the exception of the intelligence) are lost one round after the weapon leaves the paladin's hands, but return immediately when he retrieves it.

[Larkas]

My good mangiant Grod, your fix for the Paladin is AWESOME!!! It is all the Paladin should be and more! Really, sir, have a virtual cookie for that!

On your adaptation for what Virdish wants, I would only add Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat at 5th level. Yeah, I know, it doesn't do much, but it is only to maintain symmetry with Mounted Combat

And no I didn't know who three picture is of. LOL. It just looked awesome. LOL.

It is a nice game system-wise, but story-wise it is very, very weak. The multiplayer features are where it really shines, though. Anyways, when I saw the image, I was wondering if you were planning for a Paladin that rode inside a Holy Golem or something On that specific knight. It's summoning phrase is quite reminiscing of what a paladin would say:

"O Wizel, white warrior, wielder of the ancient sword, grant me your power. Verto!"

I digress... But now I want a Paladin variant that has a holy armor/rides in a holy golem

[Grod_The_Giant]

My good mangiant Grod, your fix for the Paladin is AWESOME!!! It is all the Paladin should be and more! Really, sir, have a virtual cookie for that!

Thank you

I digress... But now I want a Paladin variant that has a holy armor/rides in a holy golem

Maybe some kind of paladin-artificer theurge?

[Larkas]

Maybe some kind of paladin-artificer theurge?

Hmmmmm... That just might work! Any PrC that might already accomplish this? I was thinking more something along the lines of a Paladin/PF Summoner theurge, but that would need a construct Eidolon, so your idea is way better ...Damn, I don't have the time to brew this, but now my head will keep bubbling... DAMN YOU, GROD! *shakes fist*

[Virdish]

I would normally agree with your assertion as to the class being focused around a single weapon being completely flawed however that's not what I was going for. Yes I want the paladin to be highly concerned with hits weapon but overall I still intend it to be a paladin. With the acf all he is really losing is a but of versatility and his special mount. Which by the way I love your paladin fix gross and the acf is awesome. I'll probably add specialization at fifth level as suggested. Thank you for all the help.

[Empedocles]

I would normally agree with your assertion as to the class being focused around a single weapon being completely flawed however that's not what I was going for. Yes I want the paladin to be highly concerned with hits weapon but overall I still intend it to be a paladin. With the acf all he is really losing is a but of versatility and his special mount. Which by the way I love your paladin fix gross and the acf is awesome. I'll probably add specialization at fifth level as suggested. Thank you for all the help.

Emphasis mine.

Can the paladin afford to lose versatility? It's basically a melee class and non-initiator melee fighters aren't really known for their versatility...

[Kane0]

I support the motion for a Paladin with a construct mount.

I also second the motion of "Grod's Paladin fix is awesome".

Thats all from me really. Oh, if you are making a new class for your Paladin-esque warrior Virdish, make sure you change the spellcasting to charisma based. It's a very helpful little change.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Emphasis mine.

Can the paladin afford to lose versatility? It's basically a melee class and non-initiator melee fighters aren't really known for their versatility...

Take a look at the fix. Aside from the mount, the only abilities he "loses" are folded back into the ACF, applying only to his special weapon.

Also, thanks for the love, guys. You're making me blush

[Empedocles]

Oh not the ACF. It's brilliant. I meant the paladin/this class in general. Virdish made it sound like this new paladin-esque class was going to lose versatility.

[Larkas]

Well, since Virdish's request has been fulfilled, why don't we get together to create the mecha-riding Paladin?

I was thinking of a PrC, with entry requirements along the following:

Requirements: Craft Construct feat, ability to cast 3rd level infusions, smite evil as a class feature.

A basic start, but it is a start.

[Empedocles]

Well, since Virdish's request has been fulfilled, why don't we get together to create the mecha-riding Paladin?

I was thinking of a PrC, with entry requirements along the following:

Requirements: Craft Construct feat, ability to cast 3rd level infusions, smite evil as a class feature.

A basic start, but it is a start.

I'd like to go the other direction and introduce this as a class feature/ACF that the paladin develops over levels. Like a hugely toned down, mechanical eidolon from the PF summoner class.

And should he be able to ride in his robot thingy? Or just on it?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd like to go the other direction and introduce this as a class feature/ACF that the paladin develops over levels. Like a hugely toned down, mechanical eidolon from the PF summoner class.

And should he be able to ride in his robot thingy? Or just on it?

Simplest way would be to replace the special mount, probably.

[Empedocles]

Simplest way would be to replace the special mount, probably.

Yeah, although I'm thinking this would be a fair bit stronger then the mount.

[Empedocles]

Simplest way would be to replace the special mount, probably.

Yeah, although I'm thinking this would be a fair bit stronger then the mount.

[Larkas]

I'd like to go the other direction and introduce this as a class feature/ACF that the paladin develops over levels. Like a hugely toned down, mechanical eidolon from the PF summoner class.

And should he be able to ride in his robot thingy? Or just on it?

Like I said before, I originally thought of this as something like the summoner Eidolon

The idea is for him to ride in it, but maybe it can also work something like a magical armor in cramped spaces, maybe with a "golem" form too (think medium-sized Shield Guardian).

Simplest way would be to replace the special mount, probably.

I think so too. Just now I was thinking of something like forgoing the mount to get a celestial spirit to inhabit the construct.

On balancing issues, I don't really mind this ACF bumping the Paladin power level a bit. It might pay to replace Smite Evil too, just in case. Also, doing so would give us more liberty bumping the power level and not breaking Grod's fix, for example Furthermore, the ACF should have a feat tax as an entry requirement (Craft Construct), so that balances things out a little.

[Empedocles]

Like I said before, I originally thought of this as something like the summoner Eidolon

The idea is for him to ride in it, but maybe it can also work something like a magical armor in cramped spaces, maybe with a "golem" form too (think medium-sized Shield Guardian).



I think so too. Just now I was thinking of something like forgoing the mount to get a celestial spirit to inhabit the construct.

On balancing issues, I don't really mind this ACF bumping the Paladin power level a bit. It might pay to replace Smite Evil too, just in case. Also, doing so would give us more liberty bumping the power level and not breaking Grod's fix, for example Furthermore, the ACF should have a feat tax as an entry requirement (Craft Construct), so that balances things out a little.

I like the celestial spirit and armor/golem/mecha ideas. Especially the celestial spirit. Keeps it paladiny

I'm skeptical getting rid of smite evil. It's an iconic abiltiy, and I'd rather get rid of the spells and then pump up the armor ability to make it really strong (strong enough to replace the loss of spells).

Craft Construct doesn't really work as a prerequisite since it has prerequisites, and I think this would be a 1st level ACF that increases steadily in power.

[Larkas]

I like the celestial spirit and armor/golem/mecha ideas. Especially the celestial spirit. Keeps it paladiny

I'm skeptical getting rid of smite evil. It's an iconic abiltiy, and I'd rather get rid of the spells and then pump up the armor ability to make it really strong (strong enough to replace the loss of spells).

Craft Construct doesn't really work as a prerequisite since it has prerequisites, and I think this would be a 1st level ACF that increases steadily in power.

Ouch, totally missed the prereqs...

I'm actually a little wary of getting rid of the spells. It's also an iconic ability, though not as iconic as smite evil, of course. I was also thinking of adding the "repair" infusions as paladins spells with this ACF (Repair Light Damage, Repair Medium Damage, Repair Serious Damage, maybe Total Repair; all would only be usable on the mecha, and you would lose Heal Mount, of course). What do you think?

[Empedocles]

Ouch, totally missed the prereqs...

I'm actually a little wary of getting rid of the spells. It's also an iconic ability, though not as iconic as smite evil, of course. I was also thinking of adding the "repair" infusions as paladins spells with this ACF (Repair Light Damage, Repair Medium Damage, Repair Serious Damage, maybe Total Repair; all would only be usable on the mecha, and you would lose Heal Mount, of course). What do you think?

I really like that idea! Replacing the more versatile spells with some infusions sounds flavorful and balancing to me.

the class so far...

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[Larkas]

Another thought: what if he lost Turn Undead?

the class so far...

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, pretty much!

[Empedocles]

Another thought: what if he lost Turn Undead?

That's a neat thought, although at this point he may be losing more then he's gaining. It all depends on how well we can develop the mech ability and how versatile we can make it...

Big thing with losing turn undead is divine feats (IMO)...but thematically losing it does feel right. Let's tentatively go with that for now...

[Ziegander]

Replace Turn Undead with Turn Constructs and explicitly state that Turn Constructs can be used to power divine feats?