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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    This thread has quickly become an example of why alignment is bad.
    I disrespectfully (Cause Im CE) disagree. Its interesting to see how different people see alignment.
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    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Do monks count?
    Don't Monks get Imp Unarmed Strike, or are at least considered armed with fists? So they are ALWAYS armed, and therefore should be arrested in places you aren't allowed to be armed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    1. Whilst I do believe that commoners SHOULD have an alighnment, it just shouldn't register with spells. Detect evil should not be an excuse to kill
    2. UNLESS the person is just SO pure or so evil that thier souls begin to register. A genocidal warlord with the blood of thousands almost literaly on his hands, with a strong sadistic streak is such a hateful and vile creature that his soul begins to become demonic even BEFORE he enters hell. He becomes a demon in a mortal shell
    These are the 2 things I have in my worlds and apply. I tend to not think that murdering someone is evil sense the act in a vacuum could be evil but apply any outside influences and it can immediately become Neutral or Good. I could give literally dozens, if not hundreds, of scenarios and explain why the Paladin breaks his code of conduct but is doing a extremely good thing.
    I play a mostly Tier 3 games, for PCs, so beyond the Incarnums no one has alignment straight jackets which is the main problem with the morality system. When RP interferes with how your character mechanically acts then you might have people who are playing a alignment just for a power which is silly, outside of necromancy and a few other things. What's the statement roleplay shouldn't interfere with rollplay or the other way around.
    The only time I think alignments are okay is with divines but that's more due to the fact that you are powerless without your god/s and you shouldn't piss them off. In fact I'd choke up on the restraints for Clerics to the point of paladins, though it isn't a problem sense I only have that as an NPC class.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    No, the relevant sections of the Player's Handbook permits exactly that.

    Look on page 103, the right-hand column, and read the last paragraph. Specifically focus on how "few people are completely consistent".
    And then torture the English language by treating "completely consistent" as "meaningfully-described-by-any-other-words-here."

    No thanks. I don't need proof that it's possible to twist words if you want them to say something they don't; even if you weren't the third person in this thread to offer this argument, I already knew that. But words still mean things.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Don't Monks get Imp Unarmed Strike, or are at least considered armed with fists? So they are ALWAYS armed, and therefore should be arrested in places you aren't allowed to be armed?
    But they aren't any more proficient in them than normal people, by RAW, so they just happen to hit people to death, they don't have any special training on how to hit people.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by PersonMan View Post
    But they aren't any more proficient in them than normal people, by RAW, so they just happen to hit people to death, they don't have any special training on how to hit people.
    Nope. You aren't armed when striking someone unless you have this feat. FOr the most part, only Monks can be kicked out of places for being armed all of the time, cuz they are. Armed. With themselves. The only weapon they can't drop. Paladins can kill them because they are never unarmed... wai-

    I'd like to point out that you probably just figured out the big problem with monk. Their 'special training' consists of waving their arms a little faster, hurting their chance to hit 'Flurry of Blows'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    And then torture the English language by treating "completely consistent" as "meaningfully-described-by-any-other-words-here."

    No thanks. I don't need proof that it's possible to twist words if you want them to say something they don't; even if you weren't the third person in this thread to offer this argument, I already knew that. But words still mean things.
    ...

    What on earth are you going on about?

    "Completely consistent" means exactly that. A person is not necessarily 100% of one alignment, but it is the majority that matters, not any individual aspect. Even if an elf treats human lives as disposable and with cruelty, they can still be Good, if the rest of their personality fulfills the criteria for Good.

    The rules directly permits this. There is no twisting of words, and it is actually quite insulting that you would claim I am doing so.

    People are not cardboard figures that fit neatly into 9 boxes. Alignment was never meant to model individuals in more than general terms.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Alignment can be great UNTIL you get effects depending on it.

    It can be a useful general guideline to worldview, but then you get a spell where the difference between being killed and blinded is which of 9 boxes you fit in.

    When it becomes mechanically important to know specifically if you qualify as neutral or evil, things break down.

    People don't fit neatly into boxes. Even in fiction. There will be those who straddle the edge, and could go either way. If that call makes the difference between taking dex damage, and nothing happening, you'll get disagreement. Heck, it seems like you get "what alignment is ____" threads on a fictional character, and you'll get 12 different answers in the 3.5 system, unless the character's Dudley Do-right or The Joker (and even then, which version?)

  9. - Top - End - #69

    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    This thread has quickly become an example of why alignment is bad.
    You're right. And ya know what else? We gamers disagree about rules all the time, so rules must be bad too.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    I like alignment, too, especially the two-axis system. Most of the drawbacks seem to come out when people don't really take the time to understand it.

    Biggest mistakes people make when trying to apply the alignment system:
    1. Confusing Law with Good and Chaos with Evil. (CG Haley and LE Redcloak beg to differ.)
    2. Changing alignment too quickly, based on single actions rather than patterns of behavior and character development: "You got drunk and killed that guy in a bar fight! You're Evil now."
    3. Treating alignments like factions which must always be hostile to each other.
    4. Confusing "Lawful" with "Law-Abiding", "Chaotic" with "Absolutely Random", "Good" with "Nice", or "Evil" with "Omnicidal Maniac".
    5. Playing according to your character's alignment rather than his personality.
    6. Treating an alignment change as though it's a punitive action rather than a sign of character development.

    The alignment system is a good thing because it allows you to have a shorthand for your character's ethical beliefs and goals. It's a good role-playing aid. If you didn't role-play at all, you wouldn't need alignment; you'd just be out there gaining as much XP as you could. With alignment, you have a way of briefly stating what your character values, and which cosmic forces he's connected to.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    ...

    What on earth are you going on about?

    "Completely consistent" means exactly that. A person is not necessarily 100% of one alignment, but it is the majority that matters, not any individual aspect. Even if an elf treats human lives as disposable and with cruelty, they can still be Good, if the rest of their personality fulfills the criteria for Good.

    The rules directly permits this. There is no twisting of words, and it is actually quite insulting that you would claim I am doing so.

    People are not cardboard figures that fit neatly into 9 boxes. Alignment was never meant to model individuals in more than general terms.
    Some would argue, both the person you quoted and myself included, that the capacity to see another sentient as completely disposable due to race is a sufficiently flagrant breach of the Good alignment that it overshadows any other personality traits.

    Take, for example, John Wayne Gacy. He spent much of his time doing charity work, and generally serving as a pillar of the community. However, he carried out at least 33 grisly murders. These overshadow the rest of his personality.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfGrammarGeek View Post
    You're right. And ya know what else? We gamers disagree about rules all the time, so rules must be bad too.
    Every thread about alignment that I've seen has turned into an argument. But threads on rules? Get resolved quickly in most cases. The only time people have argued about the RAW is when the rules are VAGUE, and vague rules are a bad thing.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    I actualy like spells related to alignment. But I make them work only against oure demons or truly evil people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucrose View Post
    Some would argue, both the person you quoted and myself included, that the capacity to see another sentient as completely disposable due to race is a sufficiently flagrant breach of the Good alignment that it overshadows any other personality traits.

    Take, for example, John Wayne Gacy. He spent much of his time doing charity work, and generally serving as a pillar of the community. However, he carried out at least 33 grisly murders. These overshadow the rest of his personality.
    What about [real-world person widely praised as noble]? He never killed anyone, but he published some pretty unflattering things about [ethnic group] during his time in [country]. Does that make him a bad person despite everything else?
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2012-04-29 at 09:10 PM.
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    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    I like alignment like I like my women: smart and open to new ideas.

    No, really, that sums up my feelings on the alignment system. It's a good idea, but it needs to be adjusted to personal playstyles. We can't all play the same way, so we can't all expect to use the same rules the exact same way. Houseruling should be the norm, not some hideous sin.

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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    What about Ghandi? He never killed anyone, but he published some pretty unflattering things about black people during his time in South Africa. Does that make him a bad person despite everything else?
    Well, I've heard some rather unflattering things about how he treated his wife, and he did endorse Hitler, so my feelings on Ghandi are rather mixed to begin with. But if that were the only thing that were wrong with him? It would probably peg him to neutral. But even the blacks of South Africa were treated better than this elf is supposed to be willing to treat humans, given that apparently casually razing a city Eldar-style is on the table.

    Now, if he had no sympathy after seeing the West Indian colonies, then I'd have no choice but to peg him as Evil.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucrose View Post
    Well, I've heard some rather unflattering things about how he treated his wife, and he did endorse Hitler, so my feelings on [real-world person widely praised as noble] are rather mixed to begin with. But if that were the only thing that were wrong with him? It would probably peg him to neutral. But even the blacks of South Africa were treated better than this elf is supposed to be willing to treat humans, given that apparently casually razing a city Eldar-style is on the table.

    Now, if he had no sympathy after seeing the West Indian colonies, then I'd have no choice but to peg him as Evil.
    We should probably get off the [real-world person widely praised as noble] issue as in hindsight it might be skirting board rules.

    Anyway, my point is that we are large; we contain multitudes. Good people are not good all the time, and bad people are not bad all the time. It's one thing to say that a serial murder's crimes outweighed his charitable contributions, but it's another to say that any amount of bigotry outweighs any amount of good.
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2012-04-29 at 09:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal
    Anyway, my point is that we are large; we contain multitudes. Good people are not good all the time, and bad people are not bad all the time. It's one thing to say that a serial murder's crimes outweighed his charitable contributions, but it's another to say that any amount of bigotry outweighs any amount of good.
    Then you should be happy; no-one so far has suggested that bigotry alone is enough to push someone into an Evil alignment.

    But using racial hatred to justify the slaughter of the thousands or tens of thousands of sentient beings living in a city? THAT is some Grade-A Evil.

    The Pro-Razing argument was that the CG Ranger didn't consider the Humanoid inhabitants of the city sentient. Which is not a very reasonable claim if you stop and think about it. Either this person was deliberately consciously ignorant of the facts, or they had an Intelligence score usually reserved for Animals.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucrose View Post
    Some would argue, both the person you quoted and myself included, that the capacity to see another sentient as completely disposable due to race is a sufficiently flagrant breach of the Good alignment that it overshadows any other personality traits.

    Take, for example, John Wayne Gacy. He spent much of his time doing charity work, and generally serving as a pillar of the community. However, he carried out at least 33 grisly murders. These overshadow the rest of his personality.
    That is a very bad example. A racist is not automatically a murderer, and a racist can still be a fundamentally good person.

    Yes, you can have traits which overshadow everything else and change your alignment, but they have to be far more significant than racism. As bad as racism is, it isn't murder.

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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    We should probably get off the Ghandi issue as in hindsight it might be skirting board rules (although I think this nicely addresses the Ghandi-Hitler issue).

    Anyway, my point is that we are large; we contain multitudes. Good people are not good all the time, and bad people are not bad all the time. It's one thing to say that a serial murder's crimes outweighed his charitable contributions, but it's another to say that any amount of bigotry outweighs any amount of good.
    Pretty much what Water Bear said. I'm not claiming that some bigots, if they do not allow their bigotry to cause them to tolerate monstrosity, could not be Good. I am pointing out that Szar Lakol's defense of a 'CG' elf destroying a city of innocent humans is a sufficiently stark case that I can say that in that particular case, that particular elf is very much Not-Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    That is a very bad example. A racist is not automatically a murderer, and a racist can still be a fundamentally good person.

    Yes, you can have traits which overshadow everything else and change your alignment, but they have to be far more significant than racism. As bad as racism is, it isn't murder.
    Look back at the argument that you jumped into. It was over whether an elf that would risk his life for a fellow elf, but raze human cities to the ground for no reason other than it aided elves in any minor way, could be considered 'CG.' Bigotry on this scale is, quite clearly, murder.
    Last edited by Sucrose; 2012-04-28 at 09:15 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    Then you should be happy; no-one so far has suggested that bigotry alone is enough to push someone into an Evil alignment.

    But using racial hatred to justify the slaughter of the thousands or tens of thousands of sentient beings living in a city? THAT is some Grade-A Evil.

    The Pro-Razing argument was that the CG Ranger didn't consider the Humanoid inhabitants of the city sentient. Which is not a very reasonable claim if you stop and think about it. Either this person was deliberately consciously ignorant of the facts, or they had an Intelligence score usually reserved for Animals.
    The person I originally quoted said that simply to SEE some group as disposable "overshadows any other personality traits". I disagree.

    ACTING on that, though? Yeah, totally evil. Bigotry is a minor strike against. Murder is a major strike against. Mass murder of thousands? THAT overshadows just about any amount of good, as far as personal alignment goes. But bigotry by itself doesn't. To quote Avenue Q: "Everyone's a little bit racist, some times. It doesn't mean we go around committing hate crimes."
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    The person I originally quoted said that simply to SEE some group as disposable "overshadows any other personality traits". I disagree.

    ACTING on that, though? Yeah, totally evil. Bigotry is a minor strike against. Murder is a major strike against. Mass murder of thousands? THAT overshadows just about any amount of good, as far as personal alignment goes. But bigotry by itself doesn't. To quote Avenue Q: "Everyone's a little bit racist, some times. It doesn't mean we go around committing hate crimes."
    Seeing someone as disposable means that you are precisely evil enough to act on seeing them as disposable. There is no moral difference between wanting to do something, and not doing so because it is impractical, and simply carrying out the action. You can only claim any level of moral superiority if you don't do something that you see as reasonable if you somehow realize that you aren't reasonable to see it that way (which requires an impressive amount of cognitive dissonance).
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucrose View Post
    Well, I've heard some rather unflattering things about how he treated his wife, and he did endorse Hitler, so my feelings on Ghandi are rather mixed to begin with. But if that were the only thing that were wrong with him? It would probably peg him to neutral. But even the blacks of South Africa were treated better than this elf is supposed to be willing to treat humans, given that apparently casually razing a city Eldar-style is on the table.
    Fun fact: Many people who didn't live in Germany during WW2 endorsed Hitler, simply because they didn't know what he was doing. He billed himself as a people's socialist, which appealed to a lot of people -- particularly the civic-minded and the oppressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    Every thread about alignment that I've seen has turned into an argument. But threads on rules? Get resolved quickly in most cases. The only time people have argued about the RAW is when the rules are VAGUE, and vague rules are a bad thing.
    Alright then; people disagree about political figures and ideas all the time. That must make politicians and ideas bad.

    Honestly, I get it. The way alignment is written is vague, occasionally contradictory, and not mutually exclusive. Even if we focus on one edition's take on it. But taking such an extreme attitude toward alignment is...extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sucrose View Post
    Look back at the argument that you jumped into. It was over whether an elf that would risk his life for a fellow elf, but raze human cities to the ground for no reason other than it aided elves in any minor way, could be considered 'CG.' Bigotry on this scale is, quite clearly, murder.
    I didn't respond to the argument. I responded to one portion of it that I disagreed with, and I made it clear precisely what it was and how I disagreed.

    A murderer who destroys an entire city is evil, yes, but that has nothing to do with him being a bigot and everything to do with him destroying a city. Actions on that scale change alignments completely on their own.

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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    I didn't respond to the argument. I responded to one portion of it that I disagreed with, and I made it clear precisely what it was and how I disagreed.

    A murderer who destroys an entire city is evil, yes, but that has nothing to do with him being a bigot and everything to do with him destroying a city. Actions on that scale change alignments completely on their own.
    You were defending the idea that an elf who 'does not value human life' can be Good. Not valuing the lives of those who occupy the city means that there is nothing moral stopping you from destroying it. The only thing that would stop you is if it is impractical for you. That willingness is exactly morally equivalent to actually carrying out the action. You have the (species-specific) sociopathic outlook of a murderer; you simply lack the opportunity.

    Incidentally, got through that article you linked, sonofzeal; it was a good read. I suppose that that point is no longer one that I will hold against Ghandi.
    Last edited by Sucrose; 2012-04-28 at 10:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sucrose View Post
    You were defending the idea that an elf who 'does not value human life' can be Good. Not valuing the lives of those who occupy the city means that there is nothing moral stopping you from destroying it. The only thing that would stop you is if it is impractical for you. That willingness is exactly morally equivalent to actually carrying out the action. You have the outlook of a murderer; you simply lack the opportunity.
    Do you even realize what it is you are saying?

    If someone thinks of human life as worthless, it does not automatically mean they are willing to kill humans with no compunctions. One does not necessarily follow the other.

    An elf can think of human life as worthless without having any desire to murder an entire city of humans, and be able to recognize such an act as monstrous. It's entirely possible that coming face-to-face with such a situation would cause that elf to reevaluate his perceptions of humans, even. (It also might not affect him at all.)

    People do not generally examine their own beliefs in detail--they are just there, and we act on them. D&D characters are no different.

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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    Do you even realize what it is you are saying?
    Why, yes, I do. Thank you for asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    If someone thinks of human life as worthless, it does not automatically mean they are willing to kill humans with no compunctions. One does not necessarily follow the other.
    Incorrect. If you have compunctions, prickings of conscience, then that means that you subconsciously realize that these lives do have value. If you honestly thought that there were nothing about humans that was worthwhile, then it wouldn't bother you for them to be destroyed. It would be like taking an antibiotic to kill an infection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    An elf can think of human life as worthless without having any desire to murder an entire city of humans, and be able to recognize such an act as monstrous. It's entirely possible that coming face-to-face with such a situation would cause that elf to reevaluate his perceptions of humans, even. (It also might not affect him at all.)

    People do not generally examine their own beliefs in detail--they are just there, and we act on them. D&D characters are no different.
    I never said that they would have a desire to do it. It simply wouldn't factor into their moral considerations, since the human lives are valueless. You can think that you believe a group's lives have no value, and still be horrified by their extermination, but that just means that you didn't actually believe that. If you did, it would not affect you.

    It is possible to think that you believe human lives are valueless, and still, despite your bigoted attitude, be a good enough person to not be considered Evil. If you don't allow your bigotry to affect your dealings with the humans all that much, you might even manage to be Good.

    But actually believing that said lives are valueless is simply sociopathy. Which is evil enough to overshadow any other personality traits.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Well, with the alignment system as written (as well as the 'thinking bad thoughts does not make you evil' clause in one of the alignment books) is based on actions. Meaning that, theoretically, this elf could see humans as utterly worthless, but never do anything evil because of this if they only interact with elves. It's the action of, say, razing a city, that is a point against Good (although this depends on which view of alignment you have - real world morality vs an entirely separate morality), not the belief itself.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: I like alighnment

    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    ...

    What on earth are you going on about?

    "Completely consistent" means exactly that. A person is not necessarily 100% of one alignment, but it is the majority that matters, not any individual aspect. Even if an elf treats human lives as disposable and with cruelty, they can still be Good, if the rest of their personality fulfills the criteria for Good.
    I consider deeds more important than "the rest of the personality"

    A person who consistantly does evil deeds against a particular group, is Evil, even if the majority of their deeds, since they rarely encounter that particular group, are Good.
    And even if they're not completely consistant about that group- the fact that they're consistantly doing evil deeds at all, outweighs any Good deeds.

    Inconsistently doing evil deeds, in time of crisis- that's reasonable for Neutral and Good- they can be "driven to Evil from time to time".
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: I like alignment

    I like alignment as well when done properly. That's the problem though, it has to be done properly.

    I think 3.x did something very bad when it tied things to alignment. Paladins must be LG? Assassins must be evil? No, thank you. I don't want to have arbitrary restrictions on a character. I want to be able to use the alignment system to describe my character without him being forced into something that I don't want him to be.

    That's where I think 4e has (mostly) gotten it right. I wish all 9 alignments were still there, but I would rather miss 4 of them than be forced into playing a specific alignment. I like being able to describe my character as "An evil paladin of the god of war." That ... strikes me as something totally awesome. Or a good assassin for Lady Luck. The alignment more easily describes my character but doesn't force me, mechanically, into certain things. It's just how it should be.

    I think the sweet spot is to do what 4e did with alignment (remove arbitrary restrictions) while keeping all 9 points from 3.x. If that happens in 5e, I'll consider that to be a great alignment system.
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