Simple Q&A D&D 4e Thread II: Electric Boogaloo

[Dekkah]

A494 :

Dimers is right.
I'll only add that the only advantage I grant to my players (and Monster) is Cover if they are standing on solid ground 2 square higher that their enemy, since in 3D there is no clear line to the back of their squares. But even that isnt explicitly listed in the rules.

[Dekkah]

Q495 :
One of my creature have a power worded like this.

Melee; Wide Slash;
Make up to two Banishing Blade attacks. Must target different targets.

Banishing blade is the main melee attack power (MBA) of the creature.

The group paladin Marked it. So the quesiton is: if I use that power, does the mark trigger (he end up making two individual attacks - one on the paladin, and an other on someone else).
I've always assumed (Still lean that way - but not sure anymore) that it doesnt since the power used (Wide Slash) does target the defender, but it also could be seen doing as two separated attacks, so the one on the other player might receive the -2 to attack (basic mark stuff) and trigger the mark effect (in this case Radiant damage).

[Badgerish]

A495

Attack
An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word “attack” is sometimes used as shorthand for “attack power.” Some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as magic missile, are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target).

<wrings hands>
It can go either way due to that 'shorthand' line.

My RAI is that marking powers talk about 'attack powers' and that it's the base power (Wide Slash) not the targeted power (Banishing Blade) that counts for marking.

The RAI that marking talk about 'attacks' and that the attack/damage roll from Banishing Blade counts for marking is also a valid interpretation.

[Alejandro]

Q 496

My PC is trained in Religion. I take Initiate of the Faith, multiclassing into cleric, which also bestows training in Religion. What happens? Do I just get trained in Religion 'again' and nothing changes? If so, does that mean my PC should retrain his Religion skill to something else before taking the multiclass feat, so as to have another trained skill?

[Kurald Galain]

Q 496

My PC is trained in Religion. I take Initiate of the Faith, multiclassing into cleric, which also bestows training in Religion. What happens? Do I just get trained in Religion 'again' and nothing changes?

A 496 Precisely.

If so, does that mean my PC should retrain his Religion skill to something else before taking the multiclass feat, so as to have another trained skill?

Yes.

[Mandrake]

Q 497

Can I use an action point during surprise round?
Can I use an action point if I'm dazed?
Can I use an action point after I role a saving throw (end my turn)?
Can i use an action point when I succeed on a death saving throw with a 20, enabling me to spend a surge?

Thanks.

[Kurald Galain]

A 497 No, Yes, No, and No.

(when you roll saving throws, including death saves, your turn is over, and that means you can't do other stuff any more).

[Aotrs Commander]

Q 498

Regarding the following types of damage for powers/items; powers that deal damage of "Equal to stat modifer" e.g. Furious Smash (Str mod damage), miss on Reaping Strike verses those that deal just [xW] e.g. Rain of Steel ([1W]).

We're not quite sure we're doing it right.

95% of all the party's powers have always been "x dice plus stat mod or [xW] plus stat mod", apart from the Warlord's Furious Smash (which we were just giving him the Str bonus alone for), until we got a new player with a Dwarf fighter and it made us look a bit harder.

From a strict reading of the rules, and the fact it lists racial/item (etc) bonus after the rest as "may apply", it appears to say indicate that the only difference between the two is that you don't add the weapon dice in the former case, and you don't add the stat bonus in the second.

So, for example, our Warlord's Furious Smash should be doing just 4-5 (his Str mod) +2 (for his +2 magic greatsword) damage, yes? Basically the same as his melee masic attack sans the D10 greatsword dice. (We have up until now been only giving him his Str bonus alone.)

In the case for the Dwarf Fighter with Rain of Steel, his [1W] should be D10 (from his base axe dice)+2 (+2 magic axe) +2 (feat damage bonus with axes), yes? So basically the same as his melee basic attack sans his +4 Str bonus.

Is that about right?

[obryn]

A498

To my knowledge, most everything is pretty much spelled out; you just need to take a careful look at the wording. See if it says "rolls."

For example, Weapon Focus specifies damage rolls. It means what it says - so it works for Rain of Steel (where you roll for damage), but not Furious Smash (which does static damage).

Likewise, magic weapon enhancement bonuses. Work for Rain of Steel, but not Furious smash.

So ... Furious Smash is pretty much always going to be just his Str mod unless he can exploit some sort of Vulnerability or get a rare bonus to "damage" that doesn't specify "damage rolls."

OTOH, Rain of Steel will pretty much include any bonuses apart from the Strength mod.

-O

[Overelemental]

Q 499

I'm sorry if this has been answered before, I couldn't find the search button in the forum :p


In 4e, is there an official list of npc wages? Like.. a baker makes xx sp a day/week/month/year/whatever.

If no, anyone know of a good unofficial list for various professions?

[Ashdate]

Q 499In 4e, is there an official list of npc wages? Like.. a baker makes xx sp a day/week/month/year/whatever.

If no, anyone know of a good unofficial list for various professions?

A 499: No. There is no such list or chart. I have spoilered an answer to help guide you below, but if you wish to talk about it further please start a new thread.

Spoiler

Show

The "economy" in 4e is one of the worst things about the system (but then again, the D&D economy has never been very good). You can make some general guesses as to what a "living" wage would be using the values for what a "common" meal would be; it would cost about 6 silver a day to feed a person, or 4 gold a week, or about 70g for a family of four a month. That's pretty high, but is also assuming the family eats out, so let's pretend we can cut that value in half with some good home cooking (and thirfty shopping), down to 35g a month.

How much a place costs to live would be pretty variable, depending on where it is, but 10,000gp (the cost of a sailing ship) is probably not too unreasonable a cost in 4e's market for a nice place. We will make the unrealistic assumption that a person not only "owns" their place, but is paying it off over 40 years, at a cost of about 250g a year (lets round that up to 15g a month for interest payments). If we go with a family of four with only one adult working (or perhaps two adults manning a shop), and then add 5g on some misc expenses (clothing for example) that means one's monthly costs would be about 55g a month.

I'm rounding a lot here of course, and making some big assumptions, but that should hopefully give you some small idea.

3.5's "profession" system is not replicated in 4e, but can be improvised, by finding a skill that best "suits" the profession in question. Perhaps a baker or farmer uses the Nature skill, while a lawyer uses Insight. etc. Let's assume the person is moderately inclined to their profession (relevant bonus of +2), has training (+5) and was taught by their family, as professions are passed down (another +2). 3.5's system (if I recall) would allow someone to do their "job" for a day and earn money by rolling a d20 for the skill, and "earning" the result in silver pieces. If we bring that over, the average person would earn about 1.9g a day, times 30 days = 57g a month. This satisfies the above costs, and leaves the family a little extra to save or spend in an emergency.

Is it realistic? Not really, but hopefully it gives you an idea of where to start. A working class person perhaps makes 2g a day, a working poor perhaps 1 to 2, and a high class person perhaps 5-10g/day. They're approximate values, but on the bright side they reinforce that adventuring is a lucrative profession.

[BlckDv]

Q500:

(I feel like a bit of a letdown for not having a better question here.)

Do Critical Dice count as part of the Damage Roll for powers that alter damage rolls. The specific item is the Avenging Resolution feat, which allows Avengers to re-roll low numbers on damage rolls. One of my players has a mid-op crit fishing Avenger build, and is considering grabbing this feat. If anyone wants to provide a "bonus answer" of what other parts of damage are/are not the damage roll, I would be happy for the extra info.

[Dimers]

A 500

The damage roll is nothing except the [W]s or XdY listed in an attack power that has them. Critical dice, dice added by an item, dice added by a power, dice added by a class feature, etc etc etc, were deemed "bonus damage of a variable amount". Riiiiight. That's nothing like a damage roll!

Anyway, fault these guys for having used too small a vocabulary in building their game, but at least they're consistent about the ruling. I've never seen a hint to the contrary in the three years I've been paying attention. The only way to get more dice into a damage roll is to pick weapon powers and a weapon with a multiple-die [W].

[NotScaryBats]

Q 501

If an attack does "10 fire and radiant damage" how much hp do I subtract from a target hit by it? 20? 10? How do vulnerabilities and resistances interact with that? Resist 5 fire makes it 15 damage?

I guess I'm asking is it "10 fire damage and 10 radiant damage," or "10 damage that is both fire and radiant type"?

[ghost_warlock]

A 501

An attack that deals "10 fire and radiant damage" causes 10 damage, but it is of both fire and radiant types which makes it harder to resist.

When a character tries to resist this damage, they must have resistance to both fire and radiant or they will take the full amount of damage. Creatures vulnerable to either type of damage take the extra damage. However, vulnerabilities are not cumulative, so a creature vulnerable 5 to both fire and radiant still only takes 5 extra damage.

(Rules Compendium, pages 225-227)

[NotScaryBats]

Q 501 b

But it needn't be vulnerable to both? IE if I'm vul 5 fire but not radiant, and hit with that attack, I'd still take 15 dmg?

[ghost_warlock]

A 501 b

No, it only needs to be vulnerable to one type to take the extra damage. If it is vulnerable to both, however, you only apply the vulnerability damage once (using the higher value if they're different - a creature with vulnerable fire 10 and vulnerable radiant 5 would take 10 extra damage).

The same goes for resistances, by the way - you only apply them once. A creature with resist all 2 and resist fire 5 resists 5 damage when hit by a fire attack, not 7.

Note that ongoing damage also triggers resistances and vulnerabilities.

[Kurald Galain]

Q 501 b

But it needn't be vulnerable to both? IE if I'm vul 5 fire but not radiant, and hit with that attack, I'd still take 15 dmg?

Rule of thumb: when you get hit, you always take the worst-case scenario for you. So you use the highest of your applicable vulnerabilities, or the lowest of your applicable resistances.

[rjthom5]

Q 502

For a charge attack, can any move action be used as long as the required distance is covered? I'm looking at adding Combat Sprint (Barbarian level 2 utility) to a charge for extra distance and the defensive bonus.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Q 502

For a charge attack, can any move action be used as long as the required distance is covered? I'm looking at adding Combat Sprint (Barbarian level 2 utility) to a charge for extra distance and the defensive bonus.

A 502

In a charge attack there is no move action involved. It is a standard action that, as part of the action, grants you a move to perform it, so long that move is at least of two squares, etc. etc. You can move before it to get into position using a move action but no, you can't have that move action be part of the charge action.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Hyena]

Q503 What is the difference between pull/push and slide? What kind of forced movement provokes attack of opportunity?

By the way. Does this forum support search?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Q503 What is the difference between pull/push and slide? What kind of forced movement provokes attack of opportunity?

See PHB 285 for definitions of all three. Forced movement never provokes AoO.

By the way. Does this forum support search?

It is currently disabled, because it took up too many resources.

GW

[Badgerish]

Q503By the way. Does this forum support search?

Nope, as Gray_Wolf_c has said.
Use google with "site:www.giantitp.com/forums" as well as your seach terms.
(e.g. "site:www.giantitp.com/forums 4ed forced movement")

[obryn]

A503

You got the page reference above, but here's the long and the short of it.

PULL: Every square pulled (yes, every single one) must be closer to you. Remember, in 4e, diagonals = 1.

PUSH: Every square pushed (yes, every single one) must be further from you. Remember, in 4e, diagonals = 1.

SLIDE: You can move them in any direction you please. If there's a destination specified (like "into the square you left"), you must go in the most direct route.

None of the above ever provoke OA's. There are powers (like the Cleric's Cause Fear) which force the enemy to "move" however. Those do provoke.

Getting yourself positioned right to make the most out of pushes and pulls can be tricky at first.

-O

[Cealocanth]

Q504 When two monsters of the same type want to preform a melee attack against one player that would result in the creature being pushed away from the other monster's melee range, and they both attack on the same initiative number, are both attacks done simultaneously and the player is pushed two squares backwards, or does one monster have to attack and push, and then the other would have to move in order to preform the same attack?

[NecroRebel]

A 504

While the rules say that all monsters of the same type act "at once," they really mean that they act sequentially. The first one would resolve all of their actions for their turn, then the next one would resolve all of their actions, and so on. At no time would multiple monsters be taking an action simultaneously (interrupts happen before, reactions after, and free actions can go either way). Putting monsters of the same type on the same initiative count is just to simplify tracking.

In your specific example, the first monster would hit and push the PC, and the second would have to move to attack.

[Mandrake]

A504 add.

I don't know if this was the situation (or if it helps), but, generally, when I play with my friends (and I think this is written down somewhere as a rule), when you have two different beings with the same initiative number, the one with higher initiative bonus acts first.

I realize that you probably had two exactly the same orcs with same initiative, and that you do what NecroRebel said first, I just wanted to share this if you hadn't known or used it already.

Cheers!

[Ashdate]

A504, add: note that forced movement is always optional for the attacker (Rules comp pg. 212). You can choose not to move a target if you desire. In the above scenario, if you desired you could not push the player if the first attack roll hit, allowing the second to attack without the additional movement.

Of course, if the second creatures missed that might be worse, but opportunity often comes with risk.

[Doctor Kumquat]

Q 505:
AB
12
I understand the basics of how out-of-turn actions work, but here's a more convoluted example that I'm unsure on. This question boils down to an issue of whether opportunity attacks can indeed provoke other attacks, and how far the chain can go. My apologies, if the Q is a bit too wordy.

Let's say that Monster A (as positioned in the diagram above) is a soldier that has marked Player 1 (the party's defender), who has in turn marked Monster B. Player 2 uses a move action to walk away from the melee, provoking an opportunity attack from Monster A and B. Player 1 marked B, and has a mark punishment feature (fighter, etc.) that lets him make an attack on B for hitting someone else as an immediate interrupt. Monster A has a similar feature, that lets him punish player 1 for violating his mark as an immediate interrupt. I have read in multiple sources that one can make both an immediate attack and an opportunity attack in the same turn, should the proper triggers for both arise, but should player 2's move prompt all four attacks? If yes, do they use the stack as in Magic: the Gathering, such that Monster A would end up attacking player 1 first, then player 1 attacking monster B, then monster A and B making their opportunity attacks on player 2, and then once they all resolve, player 2 gets to start moving?

Now, to complicate matters. Let's say that Monster A can slide enemies on hit, such that after he resolves his mark punishment feature as an II, Player 1 is slid away from monster 2 (and lacks reach). In this case, Player 1's II attack would fail, correct? What happens when his OA on player 2 hits, and player 2 is slid? Can he begin his move action as normal, just from a different square? Does the initial square of attempted movement get used up, but he has [speed-1] squares of movement left? If he was slid 2, left of where Player 1 was, does his move fail outright, because he can no longer reach the square he attempted to move into? Similarly, if Monster B could shift into the square player 2 was running to after he attacked, would that eat up some of 2's movement, or just force 2 to move elsewhere?

[Ashdate]

A 505:

Q 505:

AB
12

Let's say that Monster A (as positioned in the diagram above) is a soldier that has marked Player 1 (the party's defender), who has in turn marked Monster B. Player 2 uses a move action to walk away from the melee, provoking an opportunity attack from Monster A and B. Player 1 marked B, and has a mark punishment feature (fighter, etc.) that lets him make an attack on B for hitting someone else as an immediate interrupt. Monster A has a similar feature, that lets him punish player 1 for violating his mark as an immediate interrupt. I have read in multiple sources that one can make both an immediate attack and an opportunity attack in the same turn, should the proper triggers for both arise, but should player 2's move prompt all four attacks?

If yes, do they use the stack as in Magic: the Gathering, such that Monster A would end up attacking player 1 first, then player 1 attacking monster B, then monster A and B making their opportunity attacks on player 2, and then once they all resolve, player 2 gets to start moving?

Yes you have the resolution of actions correct. Opportunity attacks are like Immediate Interrupts, but you can get them once per turn (rather than once per round like Immediate actions). So the following happens, and is resolved from the bottom up:

Player 2 moves->

Opportunity Attack from A and B on 2

-> Immediate Interrupt from Player 1 on B

-> Immediate Interrupt from A on 1

Now, to complicate matters. Let's say that Monster A can slide enemies on hit, such that after he resolves his mark punishment feature as an II, Player 1 is slid away from monster 2 (and lacks reach). In this case, Player 1's II attack would fail, correct?

Correct.

What happens when his OA on player 2 hits, and player 2 is slid? Can he begin his move action as normal, just from a different square? Does the initial square of attempted movement get used up, but he has [speed-1] squares of movement left? If he was slid 2, left of where Player 1 was, does his move fail outright, because he can no longer reach the square he attempted to move into?

The player was slid before he moved any squares. Unless he was hit by some sort of movement status effect (i.e. slow, immobilize, prone) Player 2 would still have their full movement. There's no rule that you have to "declare" your movement all at once. Also, unless there is some weird terrain, nothing would stop Player 2 from moving through Player 1's square, toward his destination (heck, he could even dance around Monster A and B at that point as they've used their Opportunity Attacks).

Similarly, if Monster B could shift into the square player 2 was running to after he attacked, would that eat up some of 2's movement, or just force 2 to move elsewhere?

As above, Player 2 could just choose to move somewhere else with his full movement.