League of Legends XXXIII: Game of Mundo

[fred dref]

And there are other champs with minimum; at least Warwick off the top of my head.

Stupid Warwick.

Also, Mundo's cleaver is based on current health, not maximum health, which is something I once knew but had since forgotten until I checked just now to see what the minimum damage was.

Also Winthur, you don't seem to get the bit where effective HP is what matters, not flat HP. Having 2k rather than 500 doesn't matter if the 2k hp build has no resists, and the 500 hp one has 300+. I reiterate what I and others have said, build resists and HP on Mundo. you'll last longer in every single way. Except flat true damage, but hey! Warwick.

Note: The HP you regen from Mundo's passive and what you presumably regen from FoN? It works in the exact same way as his ult, that is to say stacking HP is still not optimal, and getting a mixture of defenses is still better! Heck, buying FoN just makes an argument for slanting it a bit further towards resists, due to the flat HP regen!

[Eldariel]

Vayne, Brand, Mordekaiser, Amumu, Fizz (although oddly, since the damage is actually a percentile of missing health), Jarvan IV, Lee Sin (much like Fizz), Malzahar, Nasus, Poppy, and Xin Zhao. I may have missed one or two, but I think that's an almost completely list (including the ones you mentioned, that is) of damage that scales directly proportional to the enemy's total health.

Ah, that pesky Nasus ult. There, that's what I forgot. Fizz and Lee Singer I didn't count since they scale off missing HP% instead of total HP% so health is still an efficient defense against that type of an attack.

[Winthur]

Also Winthur, you don't seem to get the bit where effective HP is what matters, not flat HP. Having 2k rather than 500 doesn't matter if the 2k hp build has no resists, and the 500 hp one has 300+. I reiterate what I and others have said, build resists and HP on Mundo. you'll last longer in every single way.

You do realize I acknowledged that and made that point on my previous post? I just added on to my idea as to why a huge HP base helps out with Mundo's overall skillset - that it kind of helps with Masochism's missing HP scaling. That doesn't mean I don't get any resistances on him, really now. Last Mundo game I had I had like 180 armor and 140 magic resist on top of 4000 HP. Is that not effective enough?

[fred dref]

I just added on to my idea as to why a huge HP base helps out with Mundo's overall skillset - that it kind of helps with Masochism's missing HP scaling.

Having a large effective HP total helps with Masochism. Flat HP might help, or it might not. It depends entirely on what else you are building. All I'm saying is that there isn't a good reason for building more HP on Mundo than you would on, say, Rammus.

[efdf]

Mundo's abilities costing flat amounts of health does make flat health marginally better than resists actually

You're right in that his passive, his ult, and his E's damage bonus have no relevance though

[Math_Mage]

Certainly EARLY health on Mundo beats early resists, considering he's wandering around the map taking damage of all types.

[fred dref]

Mundo's abilities costing flat amounts of health does make flat health marginally better than resists actually

Bah, negligible.

[Mutant Bunny]

HP is also slightly more helpful when the enemy ignites you.

In other news, Varus is getting percentile damage. Just though y'all ought to know.

[Qaera]

I played five games of LoL last night with a full group, and learned a bit of a lesson.

The first four games I picked after my teammates. I filled in what we needed (Sona, Leona, Leona, Cait) instead of picking who I felt like playing (Lux). We kicked butt. All 4 games were decisive wins, and my lane did awesome each time.

But for my fifth and final game of the night I wanted to play mid lane Lux. So I did, and the rest of the team built around me.

We got destroyed, and it was my fault.

Unlike many others I really quite enjoy playing Support and am not the kind of person that itches to carry teams.

So lesson learned: Play what I want, and I lost. Play what my team needs, and I win.

I like winning, so the choice is obvious.

Same with me, I had a fifteen win streak. Then I played a couple games with some mumblers as katarina (got a quadra woo!) and decided it was fun so I played a few (ok, like 6) games as Katarina. Really fun, but we ended up losing. Back to doing what's needed of me!

~ ♅

[LordShotGun]

HP is also slightly more helpful when the enemy ignites you.

In other news, Varus is getting percentile damage. Just though y'all ought to know.

Anyone else feel like Varus is either gonna be insanely useless or incredibly broken? His skill set seems rather terrible but dat ult, dat ult.

[ex cathedra]

Anyone else feel like Varus is either gonna be insanely useless or incredibly broken? His skill set seems rather terrible but dat ult, dat ult.

We've had his information for ages...

Mixed damage steroid, percentile health damage, multiple forms of CC, healing reduction, high-ranged poke, initiation potential, high base movespeed.

Lack of escape, lack of hard-scaling steroid, low base range.

What makes this, as a whole, particularly strong or weak.

Compare with Ashe: Faster, higher damage, less range, less utility (aside from healing reduction), weaker CC, weaker initiation.

Compare with Kog'Maw: Faster, way lower damage, less range, more utility, more CC, capable of initiation.

Compare with MF: Slower, similar damage, similar range, more utility, more CC, capable of initiation.

Those champions are all viable and he isn't strictly worse than any of them so I don't see where you're coming from.

[Psyborg]

Vayne, Brand, Mordekaiser, Amumu, Fizz (although oddly, since the damage is actually a percentile of missing health), Jarvan IV, Lee Sin (much like Fizz), Malzahar, Nasus, Poppy, and Xin Zhao. I may have missed one or two, but I think that's an almost completely list (including the ones you mentioned, that is) of damage that scales directly proportional to the enemy's total health.

Garen ult scales with enemy's (missing) health; although not nominally percentagewise, it does "an additional 1 damage per 3.5/3/2.5 missing health", which is identical to "an additional amount of magic damage equal to ~28.5%/~33%/40% of enemy's missing health".

Trundle's passive could count as "scaling with enemy health" if you're extremely generous. 2-6% of their HP when someone dies near him.

[toasty]

Anyone else feel like Varus is either gonna be insanely useless or incredibly broken? His skill set seems rather terrible but dat ult, dat ult.

I would like to point out that these two spectrums have dominated the majority of Riot's releases, or at least players opinions towards these heroes, for the majority of LoL existence.

[Arbitrarity]

I would like to point out that these two spectrums have dominated the majority of Riot's releases, or at least players opinions towards these heroes, for the majority of LoL existence.

I... don't think so. Look at the set of champions released since 2011.

Caitlyn, Renekton, Karma, Maokai, J4, Nocturne, Lee, Brand, Rumble, Vayne, Orianna, Yorick, Leona, Wukong, Skarner, Talon, Riven, Xerath, Graves, Shyvana, Fizz, Volibear, Ahri, Viktor, Sejuani, Ziggs, Nautilus, Fiora, Lulu, Hecarim. (30 champions)

Of those, the "overpowered on release" set is... J4, Nocturne, Vayne, Ahri (ate major ult cooldown nerfs immediately after release), Graves, perhaps Lulu. (6/30 champions)

The "underpowered on release" is Lee, Riven, (both got instant buffs first week they came out), Yorick, Viktor (well, considered underpowered), Renekton, and Caitlyn. We'll throw in Karma. Maybe Skarner as well. (8/30, if I'm being generous)
Of those "imbalanced" champions, Lee, Renekton, Riven, and Yorick got some fairly major buffs early on, that were thought to make them too strong, and eventually were toned down again. Lee is still getting nerfs. The others settled down into comfortable spots.
This leaves a fairly large chunk of the population. Maokai, Brand, Rumble, Orianna, Leona, Wukong, Talon, Xerath, Shyvana, Fizz, Volibear, Sejuani, Ziggs, Nautilus, Fiora, Hecarim? Most of those champions haven't had more than minor number changes (excepting Orianna, who certainly wasn't considered overpowered on release... but became so after a while). The most significant are probably Wukong's initial Cyclone buff, and Talon's mana nerfs. I rarely see people complaining about them being useless, or too strong. They also form a majority of the sample.

Of the over/underpowered champions in this set, I'd say only Lee, J4, and Vayne, have presented some persistent imbalance. As of now, Lee is still prominent, J4 is coming back, and Vayne is in a comfortable place. While the two patches after Yorick were a bit scary (BUFF AND NERF ALL THE THINGS AT ONCE), I'd say that Riot is doing a better job balancing champion releases than before.
I will note confirmation bias is probably in play. Nobody notices the balanced characters. Has anyone really talked about Hecarim? Noooope. Fiora? Nope. Ziggs was considered a problem for a week, then got his minefield nerfed slightly, now we rarely see him. Volibear? Nobody seems to care. Fizz? "He has his place". Xerath is the same, as is Brand. You sometimes see them, nobody claims they're super strong or weak.

[Math_Mage]

IIRC Varus is explicitly supposed to sit between Ashe and Kog'maw in terms of ranged AD carry archetypes: high range poke, heavily autoattack-focused, and a mix of utility and steroids. I don't know that it's in any way relevant to the current discussion, but since it's practically the only thing I remember about Varus, I might as well note it.

[PersonMan]

I... don't think so.

Do note the 'or at least players' opinions' clause. I agree with you that most champs were released fine, but that doesn't stop everyone from complaining about them being OP. (I know people who said that Hecarim was going to be completely OP before he was released)

I will note confirmation bias is probably in play. Nobody notices the balanced characters. Has anyone really talked about Hecarim? Noooope. Fiora? Nope. Ziggs was considered a problem for a week, then got his minefield nerfed slightly, now we rarely see him. Volibear? Nobody seems to care. Fizz? "He has his place". Xerath is the same, as is Brand. You sometimes see them, nobody claims they're super strong or weak.

This may be "I'm losing" bias, but I've heard people complain about:

Fiora, Ziggs, Volibear, Fizz, Brand, Xerath, Hecarim, Riven, Mordekaiser, Lulu, Galio, Xin Zhao, Warwick, Irelia, Katarina, Olaf, Tryndamere and Kennen.

Normally it's because they're 4/0 or similar and run into a fairly even lane, resulting in a massacre as well as cries of 'OP'. No, not OP, just fed.

But people will, and do, complain about every champ.

EDIT: I just love it when I can WREQ-save an out of position fed carry and keep them alive with a handful of HP.

[efdf]

Bah, negligible.

It's something like 70 health per second if you hit half your cleavers

[PersonMan]

It's something like 70 health per second if you hit half your cleavers

You should hit something with more than half - even 'missing' should mean hitting minions rather than the champion (or similar) a lot of the time.

[Lix Lorn]

Has anyone really talked about Hecarim? Noooope.

Hecarim seems really UP to me... Not so UP that you can IGNORE him, but he stands in a teamfight mashing Q, and health bars aren't even moving.

Anyway. Thought.
Masquerade Cloak

Spoiler

Show

Haunting Guise (1485gp)
Blasting Wand (860gp)
+455gp
(Total: 2800gp)
300hp
80 AP
30 Magic Penetration (Unique)
Unique Active (60 second cooldown?)
Makes user look like a minion for fifteen seconds/until 'minion' takes enough damage to 'die'. Broken by using abilities. Seen through by effects that see through stealth.

[9mm]

Hecarim seems really UP to me... Not so UP that you can IGNORE him, but he stands in a teamfight mashing Q, and health bars aren't even moving.

Hecarim shows how Riot can semi-learn from past experiences. He would be an insane jungler if his Q damage was high enough to be useful against champions because he'd clear faster than mundo and shyvana with near rammus granks. So they wisely toned down his aoe to keep his jungle at mid speed: and made him accomplish not a whole not over all. reason number #11000 that the top junglers need their clearing skills capped against minions.

[Arbitrarity]

This may be "I'm losing" bias, but I've heard people complain about:

Fiora, Ziggs, Volibear, Fizz, Brand, Xerath, Hecarim, Riven, Mordekaiser, Lulu, Galio, Xin Zhao, Warwick, Irelia, Katarina, Olaf, Tryndamere and Kennen.

Normally it's because they're 4/0 or similar and run into a fairly even lane, resulting in a massacre as well as cries of 'OP'. No, not OP, just fed.

But people will, and do, complain about every champ.

That has little to do with champion releases, and more to do with losing. Note also that 8/17 of the champions you listed are outside of the sample listed. (while not directly relevant, I'd need to expand my selection past recent champion releases to make an adequate comparison, and at some point, would suck in legacy issues that Riot has improved on)

Additionally, I'm not really sure that I can generalize some players complaining under certain circumstances to "the opinion of the playerbase". I can confidently say most of the playerbase that actively participates in discussions thinks that Eve is currently underpowered. I can't say that most of the playerbase thinks Nocturne is overpowered because he got super fed off my top lane and "OMG BLIND AND GLOBAL DASH WITH CC IMMUNITY".

(No, I'm not referring to Shroud of Darkness. Oddly, the dash on Paranoia makes Nocturne immune to CC. Not damage; sometimes he dies to stuff like Dark Matter, which is lulz, but he outright ignores Gold Card stun, for example, and it pops up a little "cannot be disabled")

While you could say that the reference is to "a vocal subset of the playerbase" or something, that's not a really meaningful measurement.

[Qaera]

Does Anivia Wall stop Noct Ult? I could see that pulling off some clutch saves.

~ ♅

[Arbitrarity]

Does Anivia Wall stop Noct Ult? I could see that pulling off some clutch saves.

How would it do that? Paranoia jumps straight to target, lands right on top, and goes through everything, i.e. terrain. The only way to "stop" it is to finish recall/teleport before he hits you, kill him in mid-flight, or escape after he hits you. If you flash or move before he lands, he'll just go to your new location.

Maybe if he ults on you, does the autoattack, and you use that animation time to get a tiny distance away, then get a pixel-perfect wall placement, you could split him off after he lands. You won't avoid the damage, but rarely does Noct get a kill from ult damage.

The actual question "does Wall stop Noct ult" is equivalent to "does Wall stop any blink/dash gap closer" though, so the correct answer is no. Even Tumble and Broken Wings go through Crystallize.

[toasty]

Of those, the "overpowered on release" set is... J4, Nocturne, Vayne, Ahri (ate major ult cooldown nerfs immediately after -release), Graves, perhaps Lulu. (6/30 champions)

I played a lot of support when Graves was released. He was overpowered.

This leaves a fairly large chunk of the population. Maokai, Brand, Rumble, Orianna, Leona, Wukong, Talon, Xerath, Shyvana, Fizz, Volibear, Sejuani, Ziggs, Nautilus, Fiora, Hecarim? Most of those champions haven't had more than minor number changes (excepting Orianna, who certainly wasn't considered overpowered on release... but became so after a while). The most significant are probably Wukong's initial Cyclone buff, and Talon's mana nerfs. I rarely see people complaining about them being useless, or too strong. They also form a majority of the sample.

One thing I'd like to say is that I was really talking about player perceptions a little bit. Heroes like Maokai, Rumble, Volibear and Sejuani were called underpowered by a lot of players. At the very least they were underplayed, implying they are underpowered. Of course this was not the case. Maokai and Rumble were actually very strong, maybe Overpowered. Other heroes were considered "good" but "did not fit the meta." A good example is Leona, who had no place top, jungle or support because of her kit. Eventually she found her place as a support but only after Soraka and Sona had their sustain nerfed by a lot.

Orianna was instantly called overpowered by CLG, I'd like to point out. It just took forever for people to realize because she does have a high skill cap and it took something like two months (?) for her to see tourney play because of the patch cycle for tourneys.

Of the over/underpowered champions in this set, I'd say only Lee, J4, and Vayne, have presented some persistent imbalance. As of now, Lee is still prominent, J4 is coming back, and Vayne is in a comfortable place. While the two patches after Yorick were a bit scary (BUFF AND NERF ALL THE THINGS AT ONCE), I'd say that Riot is doing a better job balancing champion releases than before.

Nocturne. Nocturne was considered overpowered/strong for a very long time, from release till Gamescom. He is still very strong, boderline OP, only kept in place because his kit simply doesn't fit every teamcomp.

I will note confirmation bias is probably in play. Nobody notices the balanced characters. Has anyone really talked about Hecarim? Noooope. Fiora? Nope. Ziggs was considered a problem for a week, then got his minefield nerfed slightly, now we rarely see him. Volibear? Nobody seems to care. Fizz? "He has his place". Xerath is the same, as is Brand. You sometimes see them, nobody claims they're super strong or weak.

I agree with this, its hard to objectively argue the balance of LoL because subjective opinions are often more important than objective ones. Fiora ... seems alright, but her late game scaling is highly problematic. But seeing as I haven't played against her in lane or see enough people NOT BUILD HER TRIFORCE (like... the most frustrating thing in the game is seeing Talon/Fiora build triforce instead of Bloodthirster. The same goes for Rivens who build Frozen Mallet) I don't really know.

Finally: Watching TSM play scrim on EU vs. SK. Dragon gave them 200 gold. Hotfix?

[Draken]

Finally: Watching TSM play scrim on EU vs. SK. Dragon gave them 200 gold. Hotfix?

You probably saw the person who landed the killing blow get 215 gold.

[Qaera]

How would it do that? Paranoia jumps straight to target, lands right on top, and goes through everything, i.e. terrain. The only way to "stop" it is to finish recall/teleport before he hits you, kill him in mid-flight, or escape after he hits you. If you flash or move before he lands, he'll just go to your new location.

Maybe if he ults on you, does the autoattack, and you use that animation time to get a tiny distance away, then get a pixel-perfect wall placement, you could split him off after he lands. You won't avoid the damage, but rarely does Noct get a kill from ult damage.

The actual question "does Wall stop Noct ult" is equivalent to "does Wall stop any blink/dash gap closer" though, so the correct answer is no. Even Tumble and Broken Wings go through Crystallize.

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I haven't played with many Nocturnes in the game and I never picked up on the passing terrain thing.

~ ♅

[PEACH]

Hecarim seems really UP to me... Not so UP that you can IGNORE him, but he stands in a teamfight mashing Q, and health bars aren't even moving.

I'm pretty sure Hecarim isn't really meant to deal damage, or at least his kit is all over the place but doesn't really support it. I think he's supposed to be a tanky initiator with his passive and E dealing there to basically justify a champion having the passive "Has a higher base attack damage than most champs," not that it really does much for him. His Q is an oddball for a tanky initiator (like Tantrum but physical, basically), but considering he has two ways to quickly jump in and initiate with (mediocre) CC and a skill that heals him for a frankly absurd amount during teamfights, he's definitely meant to get in there and start fights.

Of course, the problem with that is that if you compare him to Malphite, his ult is worse in all ways (fleeing is *possibly* better than stunning, but the durations are awful and against multiple targets fleeing doesn't tend to let you get everybody in good position), he's got less CC and AoE damage, and he's only somewhat comparable in terms of tankiness if he gets a good W off. So there's just not much of a reason to use him, especially because I'm pretty sure Malphite still clears at roughly the same speed as Hecarim in the jungle, though with nerfs to his shield he may no longer sit at full the whole way.

Anyway. Thought.
Masquerade Cloak

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Haunting Guise (1485gp)
Blasting Wand (860gp)
+455gp
(Total: 2800gp)
300hp
80 AP
30 Magic Penetration (Unique)
Unique Active (60 second cooldown?)
Makes user look like a minion for fifteen seconds/until 'minion' takes enough damage to 'die'. Broken by using abilities. Seen through by effects that see through stealth.

To reference Dota/Dota 2, Lifestealer? Besides the fact that the duration is extremely short, you still take damage from attacks, and you appear to be still in control of the minion (possibly with your attack stats?), it's very similar. It's also very fun, but I don't think it's the kind of ability Riot wants in the game at all, let alone on an item.

There's also the fact that "hides in a minion" is something that's a helluva lot better for melee champs that are strong 1v1, not mages. I mean, Veigar hiding in a minion is cute and all, but the key attribute of this, being able to get close to somebody with them unaware you're around, doesn't really help him that much.

[PEACH]

Hecarim seems really UP to me... Not so UP that you can IGNORE him, but he stands in a teamfight mashing Q, and health bars aren't even moving.

I'm pretty sure Hecarim isn't really meant to deal damage, or at least his kit is all over the place but doesn't really support it. I think he's supposed to be a tanky initiator with his passive and E dealing there to basically justify a champion having the passive "Has a higher base attack damage than most champs," not that it really does much for him. His Q is an oddball for a tanky initiator (like Tantrum but physical, basically), but considering he has two ways to quickly jump in and initiate with (mediocre) CC and a skill that heals him for a frankly absurd amount during teamfights, he's definitely meant to get in there and start fights.

Of course, the problem with that is that if you compare him to Malphite, his ult is worse in all ways (fleeing is *possibly* better than stunning, but the durations are awful and against multiple targets fleeing doesn't tend to let you get everybody in good position), he's got less CC and AoE damage, and he's only somewhat comparable in terms of tankiness if he gets a good W off. So there's just not much of a reason to use him, especially because I'm pretty sure Malphite still clears at roughly the same speed as Hecarim in the jungle, though with nerfs to his shield he may no longer sit at full the whole way.

Anyway. Thought.
Masquerade Cloak

Spoiler

Show

Haunting Guise (1485gp)
Blasting Wand (860gp)
+455gp
(Total: 2800gp)
300hp
80 AP
30 Magic Penetration (Unique)
Unique Active (60 second cooldown?)
Makes user look like a minion for fifteen seconds/until 'minion' takes enough damage to 'die'. Broken by using abilities. Seen through by effects that see through stealth.

To reference Dota/Dota 2, Lifestealer? Besides the fact that the duration is extremely short, you still take damage from attacks, and you appear to be still in control of the minion (possibly with your attack stats?), it's very similar. It's also very fun, but I don't think it's the kind of ability Riot wants in the game at all, let alone on an item.

There's also the fact that "hides in a minion" is something that's a helluva lot better for melee champs that are strong 1v1, not mages. I mean, Veigar hiding in a minion is cute and all, but the key attribute of this, being able to get close to somebody with them unaware you're around, doesn't really help him that much.

[Arbitrarity]

I played a lot of support when Graves was released. He was overpowered.

And he's on the list.

One thing I'd like to say is that I was really talking about player perceptions a little bit. Heroes like Maokai, Rumble, Volibear and Sejuani were called underpowered by a lot of players. At the very least they were underplayed, implying they are underpowered. Of course this was not the case. Maokai and Rumble were actually very strong, maybe Overpowered. Other heroes were considered "good" but "did not fit the meta." A good example is Leona, who had no place top, jungle or support because of her kit. Eventually she found her place as a support but only after Soraka and Sona had their sustain nerfed by a lot.

A lot of players is a rather imprecise quantification. My recollection is that opinions on most of those champions ran a fairly wide range, though I will agree on Leona not fitting the meta being a common opinion. I don't think that a vocal subset of players calling Rumble underpowered on the forums is enough to let me say that the playerbase generally considers him underpowered.

Orianna was instantly called overpowered by CLG, I'd like to point out. It just took forever for people to realize because she does have a high skill cap and it took something like two months (?) for her to see tourney play because of the patch cycle for tourneys.

I was considering dropping Orianna into the OP list, but noticed that players didn't consider her OP on release. And noting some subset of the pro player opinions is cherry-picking; doesn't tell me much about the opinions of the player base, and is really easy to confirm in hindsight.

Nocturne. Nocturne was considered overpowered/strong for a very long time, from release till Gamescom. He is still very strong, boderline OP, only kept in place because his kit simply doesn't fit every teamcomp.

I'm apparently misremembering Nocturne's nerf cycle by a bit. I thought it was a bit more abrupt, but it turns out to have been spread out enough that I'll agree with you.

I agree with this, its hard to objectively argue the balance of LoL because subjective opinions are often more important than objective ones. Fiora ... seems alright, but her late game scaling is highly problematic. But seeing as I haven't played against her in lane or see enough people NOT BUILD HER TRIFORCE (like... the most frustrating thing in the game is seeing Talon/Fiora build triforce instead of Bloodthirster. The same goes for Rivens who build Frozen Mallet) I don't really know.

Confirmation bias has little to do with objective balance arguments, so I'm not sure where you're going here, but I can agree with "agh people building trinity over BT on AD scaling heroes"
In general though, it seems to me that the vast majority of balance discussion tends to center around what's current in the meta, not champion releases, as of late. There's always a bit of people trying to judge whether they should buy new champions, but that tends to die out quickly, and we don't get "ZOMG RELEASE LEBLANC HOTFIX NAO" levels of player-considered imbalance. Graves was OP on release, but didn't inspire the same level of QQ. Could have other causes though, like forum communities self-selecting and maturing a bit.

Finally: Watching TSM play scrim on EU vs. SK. Dragon gave them 200 gold. Hotfix?

I've seen that dragon thing in recent games. Seems that the person last hitting gets 200 gold base, everyone else gets 190. This has been my experience as a jungler, and no, smite is an independent 10 gold.

[toasty]

but didn't inspire the same level of QQ

People just banned him in ranked. Also: Leblanc was hotfixed really fast so I don't even remember the QQ from her. And people played her enough afterwards that I could tell she was still strong.

've seen that dragon thing in recent games. Seems that the person last hitting gets 200 gold base, everyone else gets 190. This has been my experience as a jungler, and no, smite is an independent 10 gold.

So the 25 bonus gold to the last hit is gone? But that's a net total lose of 15 gold!

And noting some subset of the pro player opinions is cherry-picking; doesn't tell me much about the opinions of the player base, and is really easy to confirm in hindsight.

Fair enough. I suppose I'm saying that because I feel like a lot of the old "is it op?" Stuff was always confirmed by Pro players. HSGG said Lee Sin, Rumble, sucked, so they sucked, HSGG said Orianna was op, so it was op.