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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Responses in bold.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I'm not good enough to give exact advice on what is too powerful or not powerful enough, but I have a few things I want to say about these versions.

    Firstly, I love what you did with the skill system. I've been thinking about skills, due to a combination of my frustrations with creating characters and realising that certain skills aren't class abilities for my class, despite being important to my character concept. Yours is much simplier than what I was thinking, though I wonder if certain skills should be forced to be class skills, like spellcraft for the mage. The idea I was thinking about was halving the number of class skills to the essentials, then allowing you to choose more skills equal to twice the character's intelligence modifier.

    To be fair, Unearthed Arcana did it first. I lifted it almost wholesale from their generic classes. I don't think it's too restrictive - the cleric, sorcerer, and wizard, for example, have only three class skills apiece that aren't Craft, Knowledge, or Profession. The druid does get shafted a little bit, but I don't consider "the druid is slightly less powerful" to be a bad thing, I gotta say.

    One shame with these classes compared to your normal versions is they don't have as much flavour. This is partly because you don't have some of the stuff from other source books like maneuvers and partly that instead of 20 base classes split between fighter, rogue/intelligence, magic and psionic character types, you only have one martial, one rogue and one mage. Still, the classes are very flavourful. I just think I prefer your original ones where you can have 5 distinctive versions of the druid, for example, instead of only one. Sadly that is the cost of streamlining.

    An unfortunate but necessary sacrifice, yes. I am committed to keeping this compendium 100% core only, and so that prevents me from branching out into certain subsystems. Psionics would be difficult to encompass within one class, though not out of the question.

    The other thing I want to mention is the archetypes. I like the archetypes starting at level 1, but I don't like them ending at level 5 instead of level 6. I already discussed this in the other thread, but I feel it is more important here, now that there are so few classes. With only three classes, I feel it is even more important that the archetypes make each class distinct and different, and therefore the idea that two characters who are supposed to be distinctly different, like a Ranger and a Knight, reach level 6 and get the exact same power is a bit disappointing. I understand you changing it to make multiclassing easier (which I approve of and I eagerly suggest you make a feat that allows you to 'multiclass' into two archetypes of the same class. In fact, I might actually make a feat to do that), but the Greater Archetype power is probably something that shouldn't be accessible to a multiclass character. It should be a capstone. Maybe have the archetype powers advance at levels 1, 3 and 6 instead, as this makes multiclassing possible while keeping the importance of the Greater Archetype power as a capstone.

    I can see where you're coming from on this, and I don't imagine it would be difficult to accomplish (though my own preference would be to make the 6th level ability for each class compelling enough to stick with it all the way). I'll consider moving the Greater Archetype up to 6th level.

    As a side note, I had already created feats that allow you to "multiclass" (i.e., select a second archetype) within your class - they're lost somewhere in the other thread. The first one got you a new lesser archetype, the second a moderate, and the third a greater - though I now think that it's not quite enough of investment for the return.


    Still, I have to say your homebrew is still some of the best I've seen. I love the archetype system you have developed and all the work you have put into everything you have made. Well done

    Thanks!

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Didn't notice Unearthed Arcana did that change in skills. Should look into that more, considering some of the issues I've had lately.

    I understand that it is an unfortunate sacrifice, and I have to congratulate you in making flavorful classes despite that.
    You could do a psionic class if you expand from core only to SRD only. A large portion of the psionic stuff is SRD so could be done without a huge investment in books.

    The idea of making the sixth level power compelling enough that people want to stick to the class all the way is a very good philosophy and one I encourage. But my issue with the archetypes is more that at level 6, to characters who share the same base class but have wildly different archetypes and characters reach level 6 and get the exact same capstone. It doesn't feel right that the raging barbarian and the archer ranger, or the Warlock and the Druid, reach level 6 and get the exact same capstone doesn't seem to fit, even if the capstone is a compelling power. That is my problem with the Greater Archetype power being at level 5.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    You know the drill.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    Didn't notice Unearthed Arcana did that change in skills. Should look into that more, considering some of the issues I've had lately.

    Quite a bit of this compendium takes cues from generic classes.

    I understand that it is an unfortunate sacrifice, and I have to congratulate you in making flavorful classes despite that.
    You could do a psionic class if you expand from core only to SRD only. A large portion of the psionic stuff is SRD so could be done without a huge investment in books.

    Problem with doing a psionic class is that the psion chassis and the psychic warrior chassis are very, very different from one another (not to mention the soulknife, which is just a whole other ballgame), and so I doubt I could put them all together in one class. The only thing unifying them would be the use of powers and power points, really. I use the SRD for most of my work anyway, so it's not like I don't have access - I just haven't thought of a way to make it logical yet.

    The idea of making the sixth level power compelling enough that people want to stick to the class all the way is a very good philosophy and one I encourage. But my issue with the archetypes is more that at level 6, to characters who share the same base class but have wildly different archetypes and characters reach level 6 and get the exact same capstone. It doesn't feel right that the raging barbarian and the archer ranger, or the Warlock and the Druid, reach level 6 and get the exact same capstone doesn't seem to fit, even if the capstone is a compelling power. That is my problem with the Greater Archetype power being at level 5.

    Traditionally, the iconic powers of each class come at 5th level anyway - at 5th level, the paladin gets his mount, while at 6th, he gets to... remove disease once a week. A barbarian gets Improved Uncanny Dodge at 5th level, and an additional bonus to Trap Sense at 6th (woo!). The druid gets wild shape at 5th level. I could go on, but I think you get the point. Because the general course of action in normal D&D is that people go into a prestige class at that point, level 6 has been traditionally lackluster. Moving it to 6th level could give it that extra bit of epic oomph, but it also delays some iconic abilities and powers to a level later than most players would expect to get them.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    I would argue that since these classes are designed for e6 you have to change the design. In a level 20 game, level 5 is a good place for iconic abilities but in e6 you have to treat level 6 like level 20 (in regards to flavour). Therefore level 5 isn't as important as it is in normal dnd, where things like prestige classes become more important.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondRevan View Post
    I would argue that since these classes are designed for e6 you have to change the design. In a level 20 game, level 5 is a good place for iconic abilities but in e6 you have to treat level 6 like level 20 (in regards to flavour). Therefore level 5 isn't as important as it is in normal dnd, where things like prestige classes become more important.
    Duly noted. As I said, I'll consider it. After I finish up the Rogue class, I'll go back and reevaluate.

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    So, Riddle of Steel and Signature Spell have been totally overhauled, and are hopefully now worth the sacrifice of any multiclassing / serve as a potent capstone for all archetypes. Work on the rogue has begun.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Two things regarding the Bard:
    1. The nitpick: The 'In addition' parts mentioned in Moderate/Greater Archetype Powers about Inspire Courage can be specified in Lesser Archetype Power ("at 3rd/5th level..."). Just for the sake of order.
    2. The balance issue: The no save part of Clashing Cacophony is too powerful.

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Two things regarding the Bard:
    1. The nitpick: The 'In addition' parts mentioned in Moderate/Greater Archetype Powers about Inspire Courage can be specified in Lesser Archetype Power ("at 3rd/5th level..."). Just for the sake of order.
    2. The balance issue: The no save part of Clashing Cacophony is too powerful.
    1. Since the Inspire Courage ability isn't specifically mentioned in the lesser archetype ability, I'm going to leave it as it is for now.

    2. Save has been added.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Just a quick nitpick: Is there a point to giving the single class Barbarian Pounce at 3rd level? At that point, there is still no difference between a standard and a full attack, and if you multiclass to another class, you'll never reach the second attack by 6th level. Would it make more sense to simply allow the Barbarian to use Unorthodox Maneuvers at the end of a charge?

    That, and that the poor iconic Mage Armor spell requires Advanced Learning to learn. XD

    EDIT: Oh, and... maybe you could throw ranged attackers a bone using Unorthodox Maneuvers?
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2012-06-01 at 07:30 AM.

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post
    Just a quick nitpick: Is there a point to giving the single class Barbarian Pounce at 3rd level? At that point, there is still no difference between a standard and a full attack, and if you multiclass to another class, you'll never reach the second attack by 6th level. Would it make more sense to simply allow the Barbarian to use Unorthodox Maneuvers at the end of a charge?

    Was more accounting for the possibility of two-weapon fighting, haste and similar effects. I'm open to shifting it around a bit.

    That, and that the poor iconic Mage Armor spell requires Advanced Learning to learn. XD

    Mages have light armor proficiency, so it loses some of its lustre.

    EDIT: Oh, and... maybe you could throw ranged attackers a bone using Unorthodox Maneuvers?

    Yes, yes, I shall devise some ranged options as well.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Rogue class is almost done! Just need to finish up the noble archetype - would love your input on this one in particular, as it's been the hardest to design for me (given the lack of available core options to draw inspiration from).

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Perhaps some kind of ability that has greater emphasis on party-faceness? I think so far only the Bard fits the role well (why exactly does it get two-weapon fighting?), and then only because their Charisma is likely to be naturally high. A noble sounds like somebody in a position which requires a bit og interpersonal politics, so maybe some sort of practical ability to do with a silver tongue, maybe manipulation based? Goading or taunting to distract/incite/manipulate actions from enemies? Something akin to Suggestion? Maybe a sort of catch-all language speaking bonus?

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post
    Perhaps some kind of ability that has greater emphasis on party-faceness? I think so far only the Bard fits the role well (why exactly does it get two-weapon fighting?), and then only because their Charisma is likely to be naturally high. A noble sounds like somebody in a position which requires a bit og interpersonal politics, so maybe some sort of practical ability to do with a silver tongue, maybe manipulation based? Goading or taunting to distract/incite/manipulate actions from enemies? Something akin to Suggestion? Maybe a sort of catch-all language speaking bonus?
    Oops, ambiguity alert! I meant the rogue class in general, but I appreciate the input here.

    The bard gets two-weapon fighting because of stage combat training (which I realize is not the best rationale and mostly drawn from personal experience).

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Oops, ambiguity alert! I meant the rogue class in general, but I appreciate the input here.

    The bard gets two-weapon fighting because of stage combat training (which I realize is not the best rationale and mostly drawn from personal experience).
    The built-in Oversized TWF seems unnecessary and thematically awkward to me.

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Regarding the noble, how about something for combat maneuvers? Adding his charisma bonus on disarms, feints and trips perhaps? Or damaging people an amount equal to him charisma whenever he succesfuly uses one of these maneuvers? Or both?

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Sacking the Noble and the Thief for the Swashbuckler and the Assassin (essentially the same archetypes, honestly). The assassin gives up some dodging and flanking abilities (which go to the Swashbuckler) in exchange for poison use and more sneakiness.

    Essentially, sneaky rogue is Assassin, combat rogue is Swashbuckler.

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    Default Re: GE6 Streamlined Class Compendium (Core-Only)

    Interested to see what the greater archetype power for a Swashbuckler will be. I have to say, I like this system even better than your previous work.

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