(PF) Eldritch Knight Fun and POssibilities!!

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

So, heres the thing, I prefer INT based Eldritch Knights, mostly to cover the lack of skill points. Plus, its nice to play the smart fighter in the group. Assume I starting with 1 level of Lore Ward Fighter, giving me 4+INT skills/level and Combat Expertise at level 1:

So heres my questions:

1.) Should i take Wizard 5 or Sorcerer (Sage) 6 to enter into Eldritch Knight? Wizard offers more utility as far as spell knowledge goes, but Sorcerer offers more castings/day. Wizard also provides an earlier entry point.

2.) What weapon style do you prefer, and/or find most optimal? Archery seems to provide the most survivability during the hard early levels, but I can see a tripping polearm build being viable, since I a.) get free Combat Expertise and b.) require a decent INT for spellcasting anyway. Then there is your usual garden variety of two handed power attackers, Dervish Dancing scimitar wielders, and the rare, but often ineffective weapon+mithril buckler.

So how do you like YOUR Eldritch Knight flavor?

[deuxhero]

Uh, capitalized Fun means something entirely different.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

...I don't play that game, but i assume it doesn't have Eldritch Knights? So... irrelevant?

[Particle_Man]

If it were me I would go wizard (so you can do the Peter Parker thing and after getting trounced one day come back the next with the right spells to trounce the trouncer) and trip build (since you can use magic to make yourself bigger and your enemies smaller, your trip can stay viable longer) but have a bow and use it at early levels. And work towards some critical feats at higher levels.

[Cieyrin]

Lore Warden doesn't get Combat Expertise till 2nd level, when it's traded for Bravery, so you'd need a bit more investment if you want it on your Eldritch Knight.

Assuming you want to grab at least BAB +16 for your full 4 iteratives, you'd want Fighter 2/Wizard (or Sorcerer) 5-6/Eldritch Knight 10/? +2-3, which could be Wizard, Sorcerer or maybe even Dragon Disciple. This still gets you 8th level spells and makes you a decent gish in general.

[eggs]

Teleport Conjurer Wizard's ability is pretty sweet for a melee character. Even with just 5 Wizard levels, it gives 20 ft movement plus a full attack at any given round.

Alternatively, PF Foresight Diviners are just too good.

Either way, add the faster spell advancement, Arcane Bond, better spell mechanic and bonus feat, and Wizard becomes a very attractive option.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

eh, forgot combat expertise isn't until level 2... regardless, my second point still stands... with INT as casting stat, Imp. trip seems like a decent investment since you gotta have that INT anyway.

I generally only plan my builds out to level 12, since a.) that is where Pathfinder Society play caps out at, and b.) most campaigns dont go much further than that, and your build ought to be effective before that point anyway.

So, four attacks dont matter to me either way.

My current go to EK build is an archer, but i get bored of tracking ammo, so I'd like to find another, just as viable method for dealing damage.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Teleport Conjurer Wizard's ability is pretty sweet for a melee character. Even with just 5 Wizard levels, it gives 20 ft movement plus a full attack at any given round.

Alternatively, PF Foresight Diviners are just too good.

Either way, add the faster spell advancement, Arcane Bond, better spell mechanic and bonus feat, and Wizard becomes a very attractive option.

Im looking at that conjuration (teleport) wizard... and its 5 ft every 2 wizard levels (so at level 5, 10 ft, 3+INT times a day) and uses a swift action, which cannot be used with a full attack action.

[eggs]

Im looking at that conjuration (teleport) wizard... and its 5 ft every 2 wizard levels (so at level 5, 10 ft, 3+INT times a day) and uses a swift action, which cannot be used with a full attack action.

I misremembered the mechanic, but 15 feet as a swift+free action is still useful.

I've never seen the rule that forbids a full attack action on the same round as swift movement. Would you mind citing it somewhere?

[Cieyrin]

and uses a swift action, which cannot be used with a full attack action.

Where do you get that? Look at the description of Full-Round Actions, it explicitly says Free and Swift actions are still available.

As for BAB, I guess Fighter 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 4 or Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 5 will get 2 iteratives regardless, BAB +9 regardless. A Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 7 has BAB +7 and CL 10/5th level spells, which is probably more desirable than the Sorcerer option with Eldritch Knight.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

oops, my bad, swift actions are okay. I thought it was only free actions. You're right.

However, i still fail to see the 10 ft swift teleport 3+INT times a day as amazing... nice to have, good even, sure, but by no means amazing.

[eggs]

However, i still fail to see the 10 ft swift teleport 3+INT times a day as amazing... nice to have, good even, sure, but by no means amazing.

It's free movement on a melee build. At best, that means never making a standard action attack. At worst, it means avoiding attacks of opportunity and moving into and out of hard-to-reach places when the situation demands.
It goes with being a Conjurer. That's a strong specialization.

Its alternatives are Diviner (stronger abilities on a weaker specialization), other wizards (much weaker abilities on weaker specializations) or sorcerer (weaker abilities, dramatically weaker casting).

Regardless of whether you want to call it amazing, it's one of the two top choices for a specialty.

[Chained Birds]

oops, my bad, swift actions are okay. I thought it was only free actions. You're right.

However, i still fail to see the 10 ft swift teleport 3+INT times a day as amazing... nice to have, good even, sure, but by no means amazing.

Sometimes a 5ft step is just not enough. Things teleporting solves.
- Difficult terrain can be difficult for Full-Attackers.
- That extra 10ft to get to a flying or floating enemy.
- Gaps and High ledges can be resolved better (Though Flying is better).
- Teleport behind an enemy to give flanking to the rogue in narrow corridors.
- Drowning and Grappling sucks; teleport out of that!
- Oh no, I'm prone and in threat range. Teleport out, then stand up.
- Do a magical disappearing man trick to entertain the kiddies. Requires a large empty box and a top hat.
- Second chance to grab that ledge before falling to your death (Though Flying is better).
- Teleport out of both lava and acid, and staying in either will eventually drown ya.
- Move 10ft faster (technically) each round when running away or pursuing an enemy.
- Combine with Mirror Images or Blink to really mess with your enemy's head. "Which one am I?"
"Am I here, or am I here?"

[Corlindale]

Some of those uses of conjurer teleport aren't viable, because you can't take actions after using it on your turn (because it works like Dimension Door). Still a great power, but not all-powerful.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

IN any case, can we get back onto topic as to how you would build your Eldritch Knight?

I am hearing some talk of a Imp. Trip build, and I'd like to see what that would look like.

[Glaurung]

I have a 3.P example (not rigidly Pathfinder).

My Eldritch Knight (currently played) is in a Pathfinder game that allows a certain amount of 3.5 material and is slogging toward 20th level. For example, a buddy is playing a Duskblade with very little modification. In my case, I am running an elven Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion (3.5) 2. I don't remember the exact order in which she acquired levels...I think it was 3 wizard, 1 fighter, 2 wizard and then either prestige class. I picked up the Abjurant Champion levels early so that I could keep advancing the AC.

I would not call her well optimized but so far she has been fun. I had several priorities. (1) I wanted her to wield a longsword, which she forged to be her bonded item and will reforge periodically to add abilities and materials. I realize that longsword, although classic elfy, lacks crunchy goodness (reach, range, combat maneuver potential, etc.). (2) I wanted her to not wear armor. I liked the idea of a fighter-mage who doesn't see the point in strapping dozens of pounds of metal on every time things might get a little scary. (3) I wanted her to be a weapon smith, eventually of great renown. (4) I envisioned her making extensive use of extra-dimensional travel once it became available.

I chose universalist wizard simply because I like the idea of an Elf fighter-mage throwing her sword from time to time. At lower levels she operated as the party tank by virtue of a +3 dexterity bonus, mage armor, shield, and, eventually protection from evil. I choose Abjurant Champion to keep her AC more competitive without wearing armor, although about 10th level she started to fall behind when it came to AC. When I got my hands on Ultimate Combat (she was level 11 then) I quickly fell in love with the Dimensional Feats.

My character fits what I had in mind. There are many better options however and I assume you want to stick with Pathfinder only. If you choose the pole-arm and tripper build, I would consider picking up Lunge and Combat Patrol just to be a pest. Archer would also be fun--but Arcane Archer probably makes more sense for a gish build.

[eggs]

PF melee is less efficient than 3e melee, and casting is more. So PF EKs work primarily as casting debuff/controllers, and only secondarily as melee brutes. This isn't because they're worse at it than noncasting melee builds; it's because it's much harder for any melee warrior to reliably blast through enemies' hit points in 1-2 rounds.

Typically, playing one effectively means dropping a big battlefield control or mass debuff in the first round to isolate/weaken targets and lock other enemies out of the fight. At that point, a battlefield control build will typically position itself to act as a secondary control effect, using its attacks of opportunity (aided by combat reflexes and a reach weapon) and either Stand Still or Greater Trip to stop movement through its threatened area.

At that point, depending on the threat that an isolated individual, the EK can either debuff it further or engage in melee. Against bipedal nonfliers, trip is a good way to crank up the hit chance (both for bonuses from attacking a prone target, and for effectively replacing the reduced iterative attack bonus with the full AoO attack bonus from Greater Trip).

The important feats are Quicken Spell, Combat Reflexes, [Improved/Greater] Trip, Power Attack and possibly Persistent Spell for focused debuffers. The Dimension Agility/Assault/Dervish feat line is also quite powerful for EKs past level 10, providing excellent mobility from mid-level spell slots.

[grarrrg]

Can't believe we've gone this many posts and no one has said "just play a Magus" yet.

Guess I'm going to have to be "that guy".

Why don't you just play a Magus?
You'll wind up with similar Bab/HP/Spells as you would a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight, especially with the 12 level PCS cap, after all, the "main" advantage of Eldritch Knight is the ability to get 16 Bab AND 9th level spells at level 20.
Assuming Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 6 you'd have 9 Bab, and 5th level spells.
Magus 12 is 9 Bab and 4th level spells, BUT you can Cast while wearing Light/Medium armor

Of particular note is the Spire Defender archetype, you lose some weapon profs. (you retain all Simple/Martial Light/1-handed profs), lose all Armor prof. (but keep the ability to cast spells while wearing armor IF you re-gain proficiency).
You gain Combat Expertise and Dodge as bonus feats. So you could re-take Light Armor Prof as a feat, and still be up 1 feat total.

[eggs]

Why don't you just play a Magus?
You'll wind up with similar Bab/HP/Spells as you would a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight, especially with the 12 level PCS cap, after all, the "main" advantage of Eldritch Knight is the ability to get 16 Bab AND 9th level spells at level 20.
Assuming Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 6 you'd have 9 Bab, and 5th level spells.
Magus 12 is 9 Bab and 4th level spells, BUT you can Cast while wearing Light/Medium armor

It looks like you just answered your own question.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

stuff

Nobody mentioned it because i didnt ask for Magus advice.

I WANT to like the magus, but I can never bring myself to play one. They are easier to play for the first 7-8 levels, however I dislike the lack of spell utility. Basically all of their spells are for combat, and i find that limiting and one dimensional.

Secondly, I find the mechanics for magus clunky, and find it a poor substitute for the slowed spell progression and more limited spell list.

By the time level 10 or 12 rolls around, I would much rather be an Eldritch Knight than a Magus, just for the sheer amount of options that more spells/wider spell knowledge brings.

For Example, if a magus runs into an opponent he has difficulty defeating and must flee, what can he do differently the next day to turn the fight to his advantage? Well, he can keep casting touch spells through his sword. basically, he can nova (again) and hopes it kills the beast this time around.

What can the Eldritch Knight do after he flees? He can sit down, think a bit, and completely alter the spells on hand for the next day, hopefully to his advantage.

Eldritch Knights fight smarter, Magi fight harder. Nothing wrong with either, I just prefer the utility of Eldritch Knight.

[Cieyrin]

I don't think you've looked at the Magus list or recall they use spellbooks like Wizards do so they can vary their spells memorized for the day. They don't have so many Divinations but the rest of the schools are pretty well covered for bringing utility to their list.

Also should be pointed out that a Sorcerer Eldritch Knight isn't going to vary that much for the most part, so if they're spell choices don't pan out, they're fairly screwed till they get to a level when they can trade spells known, so they really mandate a 'Fight harder, not smarter' mantra in comparison to Magi.

In any case, if you don't like Magi, no one says you have to, just that they aren't as lacking in versatility as you would posit they are.