Versatile spellcasting and druids

[eggynack]

I recently looked at versatile spellcasting and noticed that the prerequisites are met through druidic spontaneous summoning. The feat has alot of applications in terms of early entry tricks, but I'm more interested in using it approximately as designed. Can a druid just trade away two first level slots for effective spontaneous casting on a second level slot or are there certain restrictions that need to be abided by? The character is a summoner by nature, so even if she could only channel into summon nature's ally spells the feat could be worth it, but I'm not even sure that the feat can do that.

[olentu]

Hmm off the top of my head I do not recall prepared divine casters generally knowing spells. Of course this is from memory and I would have to look it up to be sure.

[eggynack]

I remember that argument being presented in some threads I've seen. It seems a bit semantic, at least as far as summoning is concerned. One thing I'm confused by is how it would work mechanically if the idea of "knowing" isn't an issue. Does it just grant something like spontaneous casting to a druid, or are there limits?

[Elric VIII]

The issue I have seen with it is that there may be a difference between "spell slot" and "prepared spell." Unlike Wizards, Druids cannot leave slots unprepared (which is why a Wizard can definately use this feat).

Then, there's the issue of Druids and Clerics actually knowing spells. IIRC, it doesn't say that they know them anywhere, just that the can prepare them.

[eggynack]

Huh. I never knew that druids couldn't leave slots unprepared. I had just assumed that doing that was a generic trait of prepared casters for some reason, though I guess the prayer time does put a damper on that. Casting spontaneously off the druid list does sound pretty broken though.

[Elric VIII]

Huh. I never knew that druids couldn't leave slots unprepared. I had just assumed that doing that was a generic trait of prepared casters for some reason, though I guess the prayer time does put a damper on that. Casting spontaneously off the druid list does sound pretty broken though.

Here's a rundown of that:

Spell Selection and Preparation

A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

Spell Selection and Preparation

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

Basically, a Cleric/Druid can prepare spells any time within that hour of meditation/prayer, but after that they cannot prepare additional spells. It takes a wizard 15+ minutes to fill unused slots.

I guess, technically, you could leave Druid slots unprepared in order to use with this feat, but you'd burn through your spells very fast. Also, you cannot use an empty slot to cast SNA, because it specifically requires losing a prepared spell.

[eggynack]

So the only viable use for the feat on a druid is leaving open slots and then casting the spells spontaneously out of them? That's actually pretty powerful given the variety of the druid list. It probably means that I can't get extra higher level spells per day though, which is the main reason I'd be taking the feat. As is it seems a bit like a druidic alacritous cogitation, which is plenty powerful, but seems like it could slow the game down to a crawl if I'm in the kind of position where a situational spell in one of the splat books is the key to victory. If that's all it does in this situation, then I'll probably be passing it up, and just proposing the feat to one of the actual spontaneous casters.

[Elric VIII]

So the only viable use for the feat on a druid is leaving open slots and then casting the spells spontaneously out of them? That's actually pretty powerful given the variety of the druid list. It probably means that I can't get extra higher level spells per day though, which is the main reason I'd be taking the feat. As is it seems a bit like a druidic alacritous cogitation, which is plenty powerful, but seems like it could slow the game down to a crawl if I'm in the kind of position where a situational spell in one of the splat books is the key to victory. If that's all it does in this situation, then I'll probably be passing it up, and just proposing the feat to one of the actual spontaneous casters.

SNA already has a lot of versatility. I recommend looking up some guids and constructing a quick-reference sheet for the abilities of non-core things you can summon with the spell (I know that the monster manuals add to SM X, so I assume that they would contain things for SNA, too).

You might like to get the feat Rapid Spell. This lets you cast full-round spells as a standard action (and it specifically says that it works with spontaneous spells). Combine that with Ring of the Beast (CChamp) to essentially negate its MM cost.

[eggynack]

Summon nature's ally is actually a surprisingly limited list out of core. You mostly just get a couple of things in the fiend folio, some replacement summons in stormwrack and storm elementals in mmIII. It's still an extremely versatile spell though. The problem is that in the level range I'm playing at, which is 7-9 right now, wolves aren't exactly competitive. Although first level has a few gems like entangle, second level has a couple more spells than I'm able to prep right now, and even entangle gets tiresome eventually. I don't really have room for rapid spell right now, but I've been giving serious consideration to ring of the beast. I wasn't sure if rapid spell stacked with the ring before, so that could prove useful.

[Elric VIII]

Summon nature's ally is actually a surprisingly limited list out of core. You mostly just get a couple of things in the fiend folio, some replacement summons in stormwrack and storm elementals in mmIII. It's still an extremely versatile spell though. The problem is that in the level range I'm playing at, which is 7-9 right now, wolves aren't exactly competitive. Although first level has a few gems like entangle, second level has a couple more spells than I'm able to prep right now, and even entangle gets tiresome eventually. I don't really have room for rapid spell right now, but I've been giving serious consideration to ring of the beast. I wasn't sure if rapid spell stacked with the ring before, so that could prove useful.

Well, that's a shame about the non-core stuff. I was considering a summoning-focused druid for some future campaign and I had hoped to find some hidden gems.

If your DM will let you, Greenbound Summoning is incredibly powerful. Iw was originally intended to be a +2 MM (according to the author), but instead it has no adjustment and simply adds a +2CR template to all of your SNA.

The ring doesn't exactly stack, but the work together. The ring increases the spell to the next highest SNA, based on the level of that spell that you can cast, not the total level of spells you can cast. This means that it doesn't matter how much metamagic you have on it, even SNA 8 with a +1 MM will get bumped up to SNA 9 with a +1 MM. The level of the spell does not actually change, you only "treat it as though it were one level higher than it is."

[Spuddles]

By the RAW, versatile spellcaster does nothing for spontaneously casting as a druid or cleric, as neither class know spells. They pray to their higher power and get to prepare them.

[eggynack]

Well, that's a shame about the non-core stuff. I was considering a summoning-focused druid for some future campaign and I had hoped to find some hidden gems.

If your DM will let you, Greenbound Summoning is incredibly powerful. Iw was originally intended to be a +2 MM (according to the author), but instead it has no adjustment and simply adds a +2CR template to all of your SNA.

The ring doesn't exactly stack, but the work together. The ring increases the spell to the next highest SNA, based on the level of that spell that you can cast, not the total level of spells you can cast. This means that it doesn't matter how much metamagic you have on it, even SNA 8 with a +1 MM will get bumped up to SNA 9 with a +1 MM. The level of the spell does not actually change, you only "treat it as though it were one level higher than it is."

I ended up deciding against greenbound summoning in favor of rashemi elemental summoning, at least partially because the splat books only opened up part way through the game. The sna list is a bit more powerful than sm, and there are some good things on it. The most powerful one out of core is probably the oread at snaVI which can cast earthquake for some reason, as well as a host of other good sla's. Another cool one is the yellow musk creeper which I plan to surprise my dm with when I get the chance. Usually though, it's a good idea to just stick with what works which is bears, giant crocodiles, and when they get large, elementals. There are some other good ones out there though. It's unlikely that I'll ever summon one, but fossergrims are pretty funny if you're fighting under a waterfall, and want to confuse the dm by fighting by using a waterfall specialized creature. At that level, I'm also getting large orglash's which create 8d6 cones of cold, so truestrike in rivers seems underwhelming.

My feat list is almost complete, and I'm just looking for something to cap it off at 18th. I'm at 7th now, so the only reason I care at all is out of a strange perfectionist streak where character building is concerned. The build is currently:
1st:spell focus(conjuration)
3rd:augment summoning
6th:natural spell
9th: rashemi elemental summoning
12th: natural bond
15th: frozen wildshape
and I got ashbound summoning from a wish.

By the time it's the best option remaining, augment elemental feels really underwhelming, so I'll probably just fill the slot with metamagic or something. The build is always open to change, but I think I got it about right, with the natural bond coming at a time when it'll grant my brown bear companion (dinosaurs are banned) a bonus to his stat mods, and multi-attack.

For the ring of the beast plus rapid spell combo, I'm not sure if it's useful or not yet. It probably depends on the level. If the choice is between a large orglash summoned fast and a huge one summoned slow, then I'm picking the option that doubles the creature's hit die and nearly doubles its cone. At higher levels the change over isn't nearly that extreme though, so if the choice is between 1d4+1 huge cast quickly and 1d4+1 greater cast slowly, the choice is probably going to go to the quick huges. The ring is awesome no matter what though, because it turns wolves into crocodiles and later small orglashes if I'm in the mood for it. Dealing 6d6 damage over three rounds and getting a mediocre body out of a first level slot is ok in some situations I think. It also gets an attack bonus of +8 and damage of 1d4+1d2 cold+2, which is decent at mook killing. Probably.

[2xMachina]

By the RAW, versatile spellcaster does nothing for spontaneously casting as a druid or cleric, as neither class know spells. They pray to their higher power and get to prepare them.

How about Wizards? They know spells right?

[eggynack]

I think so, yeah. That usage sees play sometimes in the aforementioned early entry tricks. I'm not sure about the exact interaction though.

[olentu]

How about Wizards? They know spells right?

Yes they do know spells. More specifically for a wizard knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks.