Alright I challenge you

[Hiro]

To make the most powerful characters you can with these stipulations:

32 Point-buy for stats
any book (no dragon mags unless you can prsent a link to the article)
Lvl5
Any race (LA's considered... though)

I'm curious to see what you people cna come up with :3

Edit: I mean as a whole package. Something with sustainability that can last through a full lvl 5-20 campaign and be viable the entire time.

No infinite loops or super cheesy stuff.

[moritheil]

To make the most powerful characters you can with these stipulations:

32 Point-buy for stats
any book (no dragon mags unless you can prsent a link to the article)
Lvl5
Any race (LA's considered... though)

I'm curious to see what you people cna come up with :3

I'm afraid you're going to need to provide a lot more information if you don't want all the answers to look like "Google Pun-Pun."

1. What is meant by "power"? Do you mean the ability to deal damage? To what extent is being able to avoid damage, prevent damage, etc. counted? And to what extent does out-of-combat utility matter?

2. Are infinite loops permitted? Pun-pun, Dark Chaos Shuffle, etc. are commonly known to break the game and are effectively unplayable, as DMs either do not permit them or the game becomes very boring due to being able to do things like make 1,067,212 attacks in a single action.

In short, it really isn't clear what you're aiming at here.

[Hiro]

Fixed and added that stipulation:

powerful= viable through full camp and no infinite loop spam or super cheesy thing.s

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

powerful= viable through full camp and no infinite loop spam or super cheesy thing.s

You mean, against level 20 threats? With Level 5 WBL and no loops?

I don't think it is even possible. I was amazed enough when I read about E6 balor challenge, but this is definitely too much

May be (hard but) possible with challenge-appropriate wealth by level.

[PersonMan]

You mean, against level 20 threats? With LV5 WBL?

I don't think it is even possible. I was amazed enough when I read about E6 balor challenge, but this is definitely too much

I think he means he wants a build that can be extended up to level 20.

[Seerow]

Why is it these challenges always seem to be less of a challenge and more of a "Build an overpowered character for me to use in my campaign, because I'm too lazy to figure something out myself or use google to find the builds that will inevitably be referenced in this thread"?

[CyMage]

Optimized Laziness Builds. They're all the rage these days.

[Hiro]

Guilty.

Namely because I sometimes miss possibilities of what works well and what doesn't sometimes. Mayeb this thread should be deleted.

[Aegis013]

Guilty.

Namely because I sometimes miss possibilities of what works well and what doesn't sometimes. Mayeb this thread should be deleted.

I'd be willing to try to throw together a decent build for you. I just need more info about what is or isn't cheesy for you and your group. If you have any ideas about what you might want in this build or any preferences feel free to PM me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Water Halfling Unarmed Arcane Swordsage 5, Swordsage is in ToB, the unarmed and arcane variants are on page 20, Water Halfling is originally from UA.

Str 10, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8, 4th level point went into Wis.

Two Flaws taken 'at character creation' but not necessarily at 1st level: Shaky and Murky-Eyed. Flaws are originally from UA.

Two Traits: Hardy and Passionate. Traits are originally from UA.

Feats: Adaptive Style (ToB), Weapon Finesse, TWF, Shadow Blade.

Stances Known: Giant Killing Style, Island of Blades, Hunter's Sense
Hunter's Sense out of combat, Giant Killing Style facing larger opponents, Island of Blades facing equal/smaller size opponents.

Maneuvers Known (readied*): Nerveskitter*, Magic Missile, Wolf Fang Strike*, Clinging Shadow Strike, Counter Charge, Greater Mage Hand*; Mountain Hammer*, Shadow Jaunt, Heroics*; Haste*.

Buffs: He regularly uses Heroics to gain Martial Study and temporarily learns a spell in place of that maneuver. He continually has the following spells active at any given time: Greater Mage Armor, Heart of Air, Heart of Water, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, Endure Elements, Ebon Eyes, Protection from Arrows, False Life, See Invisibility, Spider Climb, Magic Circle against Evil, Nondetection, Dolorous Blow, and Tremorsense, plus whatever else you find that would be beneficial.

When he's expecting an encounter, he'll typically use the above trick to also buff himself with Owl's Wisdom, Cat's Grace, and Shield, which takes nine rounds to complete so each will have a remaining duration of 4 minutes 1 round, 4 minutes 4 rounds, and 4 minutes 7 rounds respectively. He's also known to use Alter Self: Crucian + Reduce Person, Fly, and Protection from Energy when appropriate.

Combat: Nerveskitter immediately.
1st round: Haste the party, move into position.
2nd round: Activate whatever stance is most appropriate, either full attack with TWF or move and initiate a strike.
3rd+ round: See 2nd round.

[Morph Bark]

Water Halfling Unarmed Arcane Swordsage 5, Swordsage is in ToB, the unarmed and arcane variants are on page 20, Water Halfling is originally from UA.

Even if you'd consider Arcane Swordsage to be a well-working adaptation, both it and Unarmed Swordsage trade away light armor proficiency, so it is an either/or situation and you cannot take both.

Unless you perhaps somehow could get a Swordsage with medium armor proficiency to also trade that in for the other option. AND get it legalized by the DM.

[Dr.Orpheus]

You said any book so I will use the 3rd party book Devil's players guide.

Pit Feind 3 LA / Combat Mage 2 (4d8+12 HP)
Str 23, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 24, Wis 17, Cha 15 (2nd level ability score increase in Con)
Medium sized outsider
Land speed 50 ft. Fly speed 70 ft. (Good)
AC: 17 (10 +1 Dex +5 Natural Armor +1 Battle Cloak)
Fort +7 Ref +1 Will +6
Bite +7 melee 1d6+6+poison damage, 2 claws +7 melee 1d6+6 damage, tail +7 melee 1d4+6 damage, 2 wings +7 melee 1d4+6 damage
Poison: Fort DC 10 (initial damage 1d6 con, secondary damage death)
Feats: Devilish Qualities, Improved Devilish Qualities, Regeneration 2, SR25, DR 5/+1, Devilish Speed, Flyby Attack, Combat Casting, Improved Natural Attack, Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Flaws: Feeble X2
Spells: 0th 5, 1st 10

@V: Yes but your book does not let you be a Pit Feind for only 3 LA.

[Snowbluff]

3rd party stuff, Mr. Orpheus?

In that case, some Book of Erotic Fantasy.

Either Wizard or Cleric 2/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3

2 flaws... 1 human... level 1... level 3, and a MM feat from MPS

So 6 feats.

Play a Necropoltian. You are undead, and there for Immune to Ability Damage to your Physical Scores. Free Metamagic with MPS.

Wizards take Precocious Apprentice to enter MPS early. I don't know what to do past that. You got 5 feats, 3 level spells, and the ability to Metamagic anything you want. Free feat: Trade in Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Feat.

Clerics, your weapon of choice is Spiritual Weapon. Fell Drain, Maximixe, Empower, Twinspell, Persist... Maybe even put an Energy Admixture on them. Just get Sanctum Spell or something to cheese your way into MPS.
Free Feat: Planning Domain gives Extend Spell, a prereq for Persistent Spell.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Even if you'd consider Arcane Swordsage to be a well-working adaptation, both it and Unarmed Swordsage trade away light armor proficiency, so it is an either/or situation and you cannot take both.

Unless you perhaps somehow could get a Swordsage with medium armor proficiency to also trade that in for the other option. AND get it legalized by the DM.

Light armor proficiency isn't traded out for anything, neither of those variants is an alternate class feature. Both happen to lack light armor proficiency, but it's not the same as giving it up as a cost to gain something different. The two variants are indeed compatible, though if you insist they're not, you could switch it to Strongheart Water Halfling and spend your bonus feat on light armor proficiency so it can be 'traded' for the second variant.

[JadePhoenix]

Guilty.

Namely because I sometimes miss possibilities of what works well and what doesn't sometimes. Mayeb this thread should be deleted.

Just make a new thread requesting help for your build instead of disguising it as a challenge.

[Venger]

well, Marvin Shapiro, the character I'm using now has served me faithfully all the way back from level 2 to level 11 where he stands now.

general idea here is versatility. basically look at any other character and do this

human factotum 1 (take whatever)
factotum 2
factotum 3 (knowledge devotion)
factotum 4
factotum 5
chameleon 1 (alertness)
chameleon 2
chameleon 3
chameleon 4 (endurance)
chameleon 5
chameleon 6
shapeshifter 1 (natural spell)
chameleon 7
momf 1
momf 2 (dragon wild shape)
momf 3
momf 4
momf 5 (whatever)
momf 6
momf 7


you have every class skill in the game and thanks to able learner you can buy ranks at a 1:1 ratio no matter what class you go into after factotum (good thing, too, chameleon's list kind of sucks)

you can cast any spell in the game (up to level 5, that is) and turn into most kinds of monsters. buy dorjes and put ranks in UPD (or UMD if your DM uses transparency like he's supposed to) and you can have access to 4th lvl powers too

make use of your floating feat to assume additional wild shapes (frozen wild shape for cryohydra or exalted wildshape if you're good for blink dog/unicorn) or on assume supernatural ability for stuff like choker quickness or beholder eye rays

ask your DM about the exact workings of your foci, since they're sort of vague. shapeshifter requires you "know" polymorph to enter, and chameleon's arcane focus uses a spellbook, so that's your spells "known" even when you don't have the focus up, so that'll arguably do it.


if not, finish out chameleon instead and dip cloistered cleric 1 and go bone knight 4. or human paragon 1/assassin 1/mindbender1/HP3. or anything you like, really. you've finished chameleon, your CL's 20 and your spells can't be progressed. go into anything you like. enter evangelist if you were able to somehow have a decent CHA. enter one of the weird halfcasting prcs that no one ever uses like acolyte of the skin and shoot fear out of your eyes. go into a base class for a while for more power. go druid for additional wild shapes/day, go wizard to get more broken, go psion to add 3rd lvl powers to your repertoire. the possibilities are endless when you don't need to worry about losing caster levels.

warning: only approach if bookkeeping doesn't scare you off. you will need to be aware of every spell and when every class that gets it so you can make sure that you put it in your spellbook at the lowest possible level/call it from divine pool at the lowest level.

lemme know how marvin treats you. he hasn't let me down yet

[Doc_Pippin]

(My first post in these forums)

I once played a Feral human
Fallen Monk 1
Bear Totem Barbarian 5
Fist of the Forest 3
Frenzied Beserker 10

and all he had for items were a monks belt, talon gauntlets, monks tattoo, and talon gauntlets (Effective monk level of 19 MB+5, TG+5, Tattoo +5, FotF +3) and demonic grafts

He was a whirling dealer of death capible of dozens of nearly unstoppable natural attacks that did an crazy amount of damage. He was also really good at low levels... so ya thats my guy other than the 2 gnome killers which are kinda cheesy.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Guilty.

Namely because I sometimes miss possibilities of what works well and what doesn't sometimes. Mayeb this thread should be deleted.

Thanks for coping to it. Tell us what you actually want to play. Also there is a very well written and thorough handbook for a lot of character types that will be the first or second result in a google search, stick with material from here, brilliant gameoligists and 339 (archived threads from the old wizards.com CO board).

[Venger]

(My first post in these forums)

I once played a Feral human
Fallen Monk 1
Bear Totem Barbarian 5
Fist of the Forest 3
Frenzied Beserker 10

and all he had for items were a monks belt, talon gauntlets, monks tattoo, and talon gauntlets (Effective monk level of 19 MB+5, TG+5, Tattoo +5, FotF +3) and demonic grafts

He was a whirling dealer of death capible of dozens of nearly unstoppable natural attacks that did an crazy amount of damage. He was also really good at low levels... so ya thats my guy other than the 2 gnome killers which are kinda cheesy.

feral's a crazy good template. what's a "fallen monk?" is it an ACF? or are you referring to the alignment thing since barbarian requires nonlawful?

you might try bear warrior some time. it's fun if you like barbarians and you could probably fit it into a variation on this gentleman here (mebbe warshaper in there too)

[Doc_Pippin]

feral's a crazy good template. what's a "fallen monk?" is it an ACF? or are you referring to the alignment thing since barbarian requires nonlawful?

you might try bear warrior some time. it's fun if you like barbarians and you could probably fit it into a variation on this gentleman here (mebbe warshaper in there too)

just a loss of alignment and i like bear warrior and nature's warrior but I wanted Frenzied beserker's Supreme power attack for 4 to 1 plus add in leap attack storm trooper and pounce with six spare arms, a stinging tail, a bite attack,the extra FULL bab attack from frenzy, multiple slam attacks, claws, and buffeted wing attacks with reckless rage thats Rage+2 with greater Frenzy and feral trace he had str 54 without magic items


EDIT: not to mention he couldn't die from damage while in frenzy and he had fast healing and great HP he was nearly impossible to kill.

[Doc_Pippin]

Also if it doesn't bother the cheese meter I have a modified Im tiny your dead gnome killer and a Gnome illsusionist who's illusions are 230% real at level 20... oh and he can cast any evocation or conjuration spell. Oh its rediculous and hilarious.

Them: Oh ha ha, I disbelieved your issusionary fireball LOLZ

You: Good that means you take normal fireball damage times 2.3 ROFL butthole


Note: the only spell you ever really cast is silent image and it slaughters things, your silent image becomes greater shout or Miracle or whatever you want after you have Miracle X2.3 :O

[Deophaun]

Also if it doesn't bother the cheese meter I have a modified Im tiny your dead gnome killer and a Gnome illsusionist who's illusions are 230% real at level 20... oh and he can cast any evocation or conjuration spell.

I'm very interested to find out how you're getting Shadowcraft Mage to let you cast Greater Teleport.

[Cor1]

Race : Elan
Class : Psion (Egoist) lvl 5, True Healer ACF

2 Flaws

Feats
Flaw : Enhanced Elan Resilience (tank moar)
Flaw : Psicrystal Affinity
Lvl 1 : Improved Psicrystal (+1 HD)
Lvl 1 bonus : Psionic Meditation
Lvl 3 : Psicrystal Containment
Lvl 5 bonus : True Healer ACF

Psicrystal feats:
1 HD Hidden Talent (Far Hand)
3 HD Psicrystal Affinity
6 HD Linked Power

2nd psicrystal feats :
1 HD Hidden Talent (Astral Construct)
3 HD Practiced Manifester
6 HD Extend Power

Powers known (11) :
Synchronicity
Vigor
Precognition, Defensive
Inertial Armor
Share Pain
Bestow Power
Feat Leech
Energy Wall
Hustle
Time Hop
Solicit Psicrystal

Power points reserve : 25 (Class) + 12 (Int. bonus) + 2 (Elan) = 39

Tactics :
Vigor augmented as high as possible (5 pp), with Share Pain manifested on yourself and shared to the psicrystals. Meanwhile, the psicrystals spam their Astral Constructs to buy you time for spawning Energy Walls and manifesting Solicit Psicrystal to maintain them.

You may share Extended Synchronicities to begin hacking the action economy, ensuring at least that you'll live to fight another day. (Hustle linked to hustle = run very fast.)

Also, leaving Energy Walls for battlefield control. They're Concentration, so use Solicit Psicrystal and the Swift Concentration skill trick to spam them.

Even if taken by surprise, you can always use your Elan Tanking Ability : Resilience is only limited by your total power point reserve. Your 39 points can make you tank 156 damage. So if you're buffed with Vigor+Share Pain, and nothing else, you can effectively tank 199 damage before your HP, at level 5.

That's all to survive until Level 7, accessing Psychic Reformation and Metamorphosis.

Psions : because unkillable, that's why.

[JadePhoenix]

I'm very interested to find out how you're getting Shadowcraft Mage to let you cast Greater Teleport.

Presumably through Miracle.

[Doc_Pippin]

I'm very interested to find out how you're getting Shadowcraft Mage to let you cast Greater Teleport.

I said Greater SHOUT but he can cast Miracle

also dont forget the shadowcrafter PRC

[Deophaun]

Presumably through Miracle.

A) I knew I should have said Gate.
B) I'm not convinced Earth Spell actually bypasses the spell level cap of Heighten. After all, it's still Heighten that's increasing the spell level ("you can use the Heighten Spell feat to greater effect"), not Earth Spell. Earth Spell reads like it works within the Heighten Spell feat.

I said Greater SHOUT but he can cast Miracle

And I said Teleport. I was wondering how you got all the Conjuration spells, not just (creation) and (summoning), while seeming to miss Necromancy, Illusion, Abjuration, Enchantment, and Divination.

[Doc_Pippin]

A) I knew I should have said Gate.
B) I'm not convinced Earth Spell actually bypasses the spell level cap of Heighten. After all, it's still Heighten that's increasing the spell level ("you can use the Heighten Spell feat to greater effect"), not Earth Spell. Earth Spell reads like it works within the Heighten Spell feat.
And I said Teleport. I was wondering how you got all the Conjuration spells, not just (creation) and (summoning), while seeming to miss Necromancy, Illusion, Abjuration, Enchantment, and Divination.

Through the use of Practical Metamagic or Earth Spell, casters can enter classes that require the ability to cast X level spells earlier than otherwise possible.

For example, a Sorcerer normally only qualifies for Shadowcraft Mage at level 8, due to the requirement for 4th level spells. However, by using Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), he can heighten a spell to 4th level using a 3rd level slot. So, as soon as he has the feat and a 3rd level slot, he can cast 4th level spells, qualifying him for Shadowcraft Mage.



also the Earth spell discription says

"As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one. If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on. You cannot gain the benefi t of this feat when casting a spell with the air, fire, or water descriptor."

so by RAW you are able to use it to cast higher level spells

It just requires flaws

[Venger]

I'm very interested to find out how you're getting Shadowcraft Mage to let you cast Greater Teleport.

well, it's a conjuration spell, and shadowcraft mage lets you use shadow conjuration to mimic spells from that school.

[Deophaun]

so by RAW you are able to use it to cast higher level spells

I am quite aware of that. The problem is, Heighten Spell specifically says that you cannot use it to raise a spell above 9th level, and Earth Spell, while letting Heighten Spell raise a spell's level by one above the spell slot used, does not say it removes the cap. So, you can't cast Miracle using Silent Image, which means you can't use it to cast Greater Teleport.

well, it's a conjuration spell, and shadowcraft mage lets you use shadow conjuration to mimic spells from that school.

Slight correction: It's a Conjuration (teleportation) spell, and you're only allowed to replication Evocation, Conjuration (creation), and Conjuration (summoning) spells.

[Venger]

Slight correction: It's a Conjuration (teleportation) spell, and you're only allowed to replication Evocation, Conjuration (creation), and Conjuration (summoning) spells.

what do you know? you're right!

my apologies. thanks for the correction.